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Explaining Why The Destiny 2 Hate Has Come To This Point
- Thread starter kayos90
- Start date
Watched the second video last night. It really does open your eyes to how bad the weapon system is in d2.
How it go through internal testing boggles the mind.
They need to split pvp and pve. But they wont because readons
How it go through internal testing boggles the mind.
They need to split pvp and pve. But they wont because readons
No, I actually clocked this with a friend. After about 15-20 hours of game-play, the loop was effectively completed and they were just playing recycled content. At that point the sole motivator was grinding light level via public events primarily (As strikes were not as rewarding and he had completed all of them). In order to reach an undefined light level (We all didn't know what we would need to reach for the unknown raid, etc.) He ended up stopping pretty disheartened with the game at around 40 hours, with a 299 light level warlock, three or four raid clears, and a max level titan, who wasn't a high light level. I pushed through more hours, I think I'm around 140-160 now, because of playing with multiple different friends and many successful and unsuccessful raids (I'm not sure how many times I've cleared it, but it's a good amount). Though at least 100 hours were clocked in the first few weeks, counting afk time. I was max (possible) light on three characters before the raid was available.
Point being we kind of settled out, that you can really complete the available content, bar hard mode raid, in about 25-30 hours. And some of that will be light grinding.
The main incentive piece to come back and replay the content is gear, and the gear is frankly boring.
Well, it does let me play other titles because I can level up, which means I come back to it, D1 was frustrating in that aspect to me.
Also the gameplay is feels satisfying, the 4v4 pvp makes more sense to me and I enjoyed it more, I like the worlds they built too. I liked a lot of Destiny 1 too, but the grinding to level and public events being hidden I didn't care for, so thats just me.
It feels like people want D2 to be the game they can play 4hrs every night and never ending. and I think is clear that was not the goal, and I believe they said that on some interviews last year, play it, finish the content, come back a few months later for the expansion
I'm spending a lot of hours on the PvP
When I hear you guys talking about the 6vs6 it sounds fun, with wider maps and more Halo like combat, but I'm having lot's of fun with the more tightened experience of the D2 quickplay.
Had lots of fun in the IB (Despite the shit RNG)
When I hear you guys talking about the 6vs6 it sounds fun, with wider maps and more Halo like combat, but I'm having lot's of fun with the more tightened experience of the D2 quickplay.
Had lots of fun in the IB (Despite the shit RNG)
I dont think D2 can be saved, they removed so much of the character and identity from D1. The shallow subclasses for instance, how do you "fix" that? A great example of how playing it safe just ends up boring and uninspiring. D1 pvp was fast paced and fun with many options of counterplay (not Y3).
What do you guys think about loot specific quests and goals?
I personally loved getting the Touch of Malice in TTK, as well as Time to Explain etc.. I think more big exotic/legendary quests like this would be a cool addition. I also liked the rep-quests from the Taken War, where you did stuff for the Awoken queen and got the scout rifle. Tangible rewards, and challenging quests with clear worthwhile rewards, would be a great addition.
I personally loved getting the Touch of Malice in TTK, as well as Time to Explain etc.. I think more big exotic/legendary quests like this would be a cool addition. I also liked the rep-quests from the Taken War, where you did stuff for the Awoken queen and got the scout rifle. Tangible rewards, and challenging quests with clear worthwhile rewards, would be a great addition.
The Destiny community is the first game in which I have actively participated in. Completed vog, Wrath, crota and reached the end of the King's Fall with your help and for that I thank you.
In year 1 I stuck with the game because it was genuinely fun coop experience and it still is.
But something is very wrong with the destiny 2 community this time round, it's viscous, impatient, entitled and dare I say toxic. Yes the game has problem like who thought 4v4 was a clever twist?
Anyway, it is very sad to see what I used to consider the best and most warm and welcoming and helpful community descend into viper Pitt of snark and pessimism.
I've seen posters on this very website asking for devs to resign or be sacked over a video game. We are better than this.
In short, some of y'all need to chill out.
In year 1 I stuck with the game because it was genuinely fun coop experience and it still is.
But something is very wrong with the destiny 2 community this time round, it's viscous, impatient, entitled and dare I say toxic. Yes the game has problem like who thought 4v4 was a clever twist?
Anyway, it is very sad to see what I used to consider the best and most warm and welcoming and helpful community descend into viper Pitt of snark and pessimism.
I've seen posters on this very website asking for devs to resign or be sacked over a video game. We are better than this.
In short, some of y'all need to chill out.
The thing I always loved about Halo was the abundance of wackier/fun game modes and general just playground type game modes. Vehicles also contributed to that greatly to allow different styles of play. I don't like hardcore PvP, at least not in destiny and that's really all they have on offer. It's not just PVE that suffers from a limited scope. But PVE sadly suffers from PVP directly too, due to events being centered around PVP. People shouldn't be forced to play competitive modes they don't enjoy in order to participate in events I understand trials, and that's fine to have. But not for so many other events too. Their focus on PVP is just so so heavy handed, and single minded with options.
Because being positive, warm and optimistic didn't get us anywhere. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Well actually that's not completely true, it got us a lot of lip service and platitudes.
Where did I say that?
Being positive and being negative aren't your only two options.
There is some nuance between being doughie eyed and naive and spitting bile and shouting like howler monkeys on the Internet.
I'm not sure about random roles back. They don't need it. Just elaborate on the mod system. The game isn't that broken. It's very close to being better but they need to tweak it. My main frustration although is the fact the game exist. Looking back there was really no reason to leave destiny 1, they aren't putting content out any more quickly. It seems mainly as a reason to cash in on a new way to force reset. That is what pisses me off.
Genuinely still suprised they did that. At first I figured they were pulling a double dip on us because they knew they had something really good on their hands all GTAV. Clearly that wasn't the case. They really should have universally released it if they wanted improved sales.
The game has so little content though. All the classes were pulled straight out of the first game, and only one subclass for each of them is new, replacing what in my opinion were superior subclasses added with The Taken King.
Character creation straight from the first game.
Nearly all weapons pulled straight from the first game.
And a bunch of evidence pointing to Destiny 2 likely just being scrapped content from the first game. And it shows too, with the rushed 5 or so hour long campaign, fewer strikes, worse PvP, rushed tiny ass zones like Titan and Io, etc...
Borderlands 2 takes like 30 hours to beat. You can get more out of Borderlands 2 without even digging into the real meat of the game than you can Destiny 2 in the time it takes to realize there's no point in continuing to increase your power level.
And they're gonna do it again every time they release a sequel. From the start, this should have been treated like a Blizzard game or any MMO, and they should have just kept releasing expansions.
You nailed my feelings. I put hundreds of hours into Destiny 1 in both strikes and crucible but just hated how paired down Destiny 2 is. Crucible is also terrible now. It was never super balanced but it was fun.
Part of the problem is that the game simply doesn't have proper variety in terms of equipment, nor the ability to customize your stuff in meaningful ways. I didn't play Destiny 1 much (I just smashed through D1's story shortly before D2's PC release, there's no way I would've tolerated playing a console shooter any further than that), but from what I'm seeing in this thread, aside from the inexplicable cutbacks in terms of meaningful improvements that had been implemented since D1's release, there's also a major reduction in interesting and cool equipment, and even I notice how much the RPG aspect has been greatly reduced, and I'm not sure why the loadout system is so ridiculous - the kinetic and energy weapons are virtually identical aside from one being elemental, and the fact that snipers and shotguns are limited-use power weapons is frankly ludicrous.
The need to balance both PvE and PvP in the same system is frankly a fool's errand - look at what Digital Extremes did with Warframe, which has a completely separate loadout menu and balance set for PvP, because DE knew trying to create a single balance set for both would be harmful for both. Granted, Conclave in Warframe is not a huge draw as far as that game is concerned, but DE made the conscious decision to maintain variety over the nebulous goal of balance. Granted, it helps that DE have a damn good idea of what kind of game they're making - while there has been a couple of PvP events, they're mainly gimmick-based (you'll never catch Bungie making what is basically a hardcore winter snowball fight event in Destiny) and don't take much investment to get all the rewards out of them. They know PvE is the main draw of the game, and embrace it wholeheartedly. Hell, there are even events that actually have potential consequences for failure, such as Fomorian ships trying to destroy relays.
Granted, I don't make it a secret that I just prefer Warframe to Destiny for a variety of reasons - Destiny 2 is fun, even if it's admittedly it's a bit disadvantaged by the fact that Warframe has years of content under its belt and even its own "open-world" area now with activities you simply can't do in Destiny 2. Destiny just feels like just another RPG shooter with lackluster 'class' abilities and limited variety, whereas Warframe, in spite of its jank and its own issues, has incredible mobility, as well as incredible variety in terms of "classes", equipment, customization, actual fucking melee mechanics that are actually pretty cool, and it nails the power fantasy feeling completely in ways that Destiny can't hope to match without complete renovations to the mechanics - I feel like a single Tenno could completely wreck a whole fireteam of Guardians with little effort.
I wish Destiny in general was better than it is, because it frankly has so much potential to, with its stellar production values and sorta-intriguing lore. A premium game shouldn't be making me wish I was playing a F2P game instead. Destiny could be so much more than just a shooter with some RPG mechanics sprinkled on top.
The need to balance both PvE and PvP in the same system is frankly a fool's errand - look at what Digital Extremes did with Warframe, which has a completely separate loadout menu and balance set for PvP, because DE knew trying to create a single balance set for both would be harmful for both. Granted, Conclave in Warframe is not a huge draw as far as that game is concerned, but DE made the conscious decision to maintain variety over the nebulous goal of balance. Granted, it helps that DE have a damn good idea of what kind of game they're making - while there has been a couple of PvP events, they're mainly gimmick-based (you'll never catch Bungie making what is basically a hardcore winter snowball fight event in Destiny) and don't take much investment to get all the rewards out of them. They know PvE is the main draw of the game, and embrace it wholeheartedly. Hell, there are even events that actually have potential consequences for failure, such as Fomorian ships trying to destroy relays.
Granted, I don't make it a secret that I just prefer Warframe to Destiny for a variety of reasons - Destiny 2 is fun, even if it's admittedly it's a bit disadvantaged by the fact that Warframe has years of content under its belt and even its own "open-world" area now with activities you simply can't do in Destiny 2. Destiny just feels like just another RPG shooter with lackluster 'class' abilities and limited variety, whereas Warframe, in spite of its jank and its own issues, has incredible mobility, as well as incredible variety in terms of "classes", equipment, customization, actual fucking melee mechanics that are actually pretty cool, and it nails the power fantasy feeling completely in ways that Destiny can't hope to match without complete renovations to the mechanics - I feel like a single Tenno could completely wreck a whole fireteam of Guardians with little effort.
I wish Destiny in general was better than it is, because it frankly has so much potential to, with its stellar production values and sorta-intriguing lore. A premium game shouldn't be making me wish I was playing a F2P game instead. Destiny could be so much more than just a shooter with some RPG mechanics sprinkled on top.
OP
OP
I honestly think we're missing each other. What you're saying isn't wrong. I agree with your points and ultimately your last two bullet points are exactly what every game should be doing. I'm not saying all casuals feedback is wrong either. Expanding the playerbase is a good goal for any business. I'm trying to more or less convince you to not get bogged down on the detail and think more big picture and focus on that rather than the nitty gritty details.
I personally can't ever get into Destiny because it's a serialized MMO where your progress isn't persistent. All the time spent in Destiny 1 made no difference and now it's a dead game. As someone who's been playing MMO's long before Destiny half-assedly implemented the genre's trappings, it's like "why would I ever play WoW when WoW2 will be out in a few years and nothing carries over?"
Add on how often the gameplay is always in a state of "being fixed guys we're sorry thanks for being fans!!!", the prospect of jumping in has never been less attractive.
Add on how often the gameplay is always in a state of "being fixed guys we're sorry thanks for being fans!!!", the prospect of jumping in has never been less attractive.
I dunno feels like they just subbed one form of grinding for another. in D1 I would grind for a god roll, in D2 I just grind for a drop. Been trying to get certain items for week and just don't get them. Example:
In D1 I wanted the strike hand cannon, had to do strikes for a coin, once got coin had 50% chance at gun and maybe 10% chance that would be a god roll. Maybe took a few days to get it
D2 been trying to vanguard weapons (scout rocket and auto) for weeks, I do weekly stuff grind strike tokens and I get the same hand full of crap over and over.
When I see people complaining they don't have an advantage for playing longer then others I have to laugh. You got the gear I can't get and I play a ton.
In D1 I wanted the strike hand cannon, had to do strikes for a coin, once got coin had 50% chance at gun and maybe 10% chance that would be a god roll. Maybe took a few days to get it
D2 been trying to vanguard weapons (scout rocket and auto) for weeks, I do weekly stuff grind strike tokens and I get the same hand full of crap over and over.
When I see people complaining they don't have an advantage for playing longer then others I have to laugh. You got the gear I can't get and I play a ton.
The vendor system was also why I hated random rolls. I barely ever got anything good from drops, even after huge numbers of dupes, but eventually just bought one. That's not as fun as getting the gun to drop. Fixed rolls makes the game so much more rewarding. It's exciting when you get the gun you've been looking for and you can just focus on using it instead of waiting for double RNG.
Luckily enough, there's still enough population to play for Strikes or PvP.
Fun fact: r/DTG recently got a weekly vendor reset thread for Destiny 1 with an entire list of guns/armor (Some has pretty good rolls too) that you can buy with Legendary Marks
Some people can say all they like, but it shows that if nothing else, there was a huge value in grinding for random rolls and Tier 12 stats.
Destiny is a looter shooter and there's no other way around it.
Keep in mind, Bungie made this same mistake with Destiny 1, and over time they fixed things here and there, to the point where the finished game as of now is a decent balance between power fantasy, grind, and content.
Then they stepped back with Destiny 2. All 3 years of progress gone, and now, again, we're expecting to wait 2-3 years before the game is finally good. Bungie didn't learn from mistakes, and as much as it is good that they are trying to improve, they've already gone through this cycle before.
I feel Diablo handles item variance way better than Destiny 1 did. The items have clear identities and fundamental abilities, but the quality of those abilities is what varies. Similarly, if you wanted a streamlined version of that, just have the Ancient Legendary setup where you get a regular edition of the gun, or an even better one.
Alternately, leave it the way it is now, but put in other, harder to get forms of progression. Have armor sets actually matter and be interesting like sets in other games. Have long term crafting projects like legendary weapons in Guild Wars, which can take months to complete. Put in a much stronger weapon augmentation system. Make some guns exceedingly rare like The Furnace in Diablo.
I don't think you need to lose meaningful gun identity to make a game have progression for hardcore players.
Alternately, leave it the way it is now, but put in other, harder to get forms of progression. Have armor sets actually matter and be interesting like sets in other games. Have long term crafting projects like legendary weapons in Guild Wars, which can take months to complete. Put in a much stronger weapon augmentation system. Make some guns exceedingly rare like The Furnace in Diablo.
I don't think you need to lose meaningful gun identity to make a game have progression for hardcore players.
Funny that you mention Guild Wars 2
Destiny 2 feels exactly like it. What kept the grind alive for players in GW2 was the Legendary weapons. I feel that something equal to that can keep the hardcore happy.
And I've seen a poster go into a thread where people were discussing issues they had with Destiny 2 and called the negativity "masturbatory". Oh wait, that poster was you. Take your own advice.
Damn son. No mercy
Also, some of you guys need to scrub the term "entitled" from your vocabulary. You either don't what entitled actually means, or you're intentionally being obtuse.
Destiny 2, in a nutshell, is a re-release of TTK. It amazed me when reviewers were stating that the sequel finally fixed many issues that plagued the original, when really - TTK had done that already. So, yeah, this reaction is nothing new.
If that's the case, then they're not gamers, they're just Destiny grinders. There are other games.
This seems similar to what happened when they were developing Halo games. Destiny 2 to D1 is analogous to Halo 2 and CE.
I get why. They sympathize with devs, which is usually fine, but taken to an extreme is anti-consumer. Personally, I don't know why you would allow emotion to step into what's effectively a business transaction. Why defend them so hard? You pay them a fee for a service.
I wish they would have just went full-on MMO.
Most of the people who clamor about "not wanting random rolls" etc, do not have the time to grind and run content over and over. That's the exact definition of an MMO. Instead, they went in the other direction and went casual, for what I presume is more sales. If they just embrased this MMO/GAAS ideology and crafted the game around it with content / loot to boot, it would be glorious. This is coming from someone who loves & still plays WoW, though, and doesn't mind the grind to get better gear to kill harder bosses.
Most of the people who clamor about "not wanting random rolls" etc, do not have the time to grind and run content over and over. That's the exact definition of an MMO. Instead, they went in the other direction and went casual, for what I presume is more sales. If they just embrased this MMO/GAAS ideology and crafted the game around it with content / loot to boot, it would be glorious. This is coming from someone who loves & still plays WoW, though, and doesn't mind the grind to get better gear to kill harder bosses.
This is just amazing, like I don't agree with many of your points but this is the very definition of constructive criticism, and how issues with any product should be addressed.
Like, you need an award or something for this. Very intelligent and mature. Bravo man!
The community hit the end of their rope. In the beginning,when everyone said the game was crap, we saw the brilliance in what Bungie was trying to do (it seemed). We stayed for the combat, the fun guns, and the community itself. Year 2 and Year 3 came and things continued to improve. Quality of life improvments, tons of content, reasons to grind...all made sticking with it worthwhile.
Then here in Destiny 2, they completely abandoned the RPG/Grindy/Stat part of Destiny and made it a casual, everyone is the same shooter. It felt like a step backwards instead of the step forwards from year 3. All of these complaints we are having now? We went through them before, plus some. In year 1, no one said the loot sucked (I mean, Im sure some did). G horn, fatebringer, Vision, and others.
The community finally and collectively just gave up. I enjoy my time with Destiny and Destiny 2, but if they want me to play casually, then fine, I'll play it casually. Log in every few months...kick around, then go play something else and not be a part of the vibrant community that was Year 1.
It really is frustrating that they have the framework in place to make it damn awesome...thousand hour game...but yet make choices that don't support that.
That is definitely frustrating and I agree with that you'll get no disagreement here.
How does me commenting on people asking for Devs to lose their livelihoods equate to what I posted in another thread?
Relying on old gaf gothca posting techniques , butchering my original post to score pwnage points.
Excellent post m8, I agree.
It's tough to go back home because you feel it isn't there anymore. I feel you.
I really liked D1 by far my most played game this gen.
Destiny 2's issues have nothing to do with the RNG roles. Removing those was good. It's destroying PvP, the heavy weapon change, removal of compelling game modes and guns that are less special and fun to use that is killing D2.
Plus garbage like the removable shaders and experience lies.
Plus garbage like the removable shaders and experience lies.
Same, most played game ever for me. And it isn't even close...
It really doesn't feel like home. :/ It feels like a number climber...and thats it. It feels like they took out all of the quirky enderaing parts of Destiny 1 and made it the most non-offense, by the book, (yet excellent), shooter that anyone can pick up and play (but for a few end game activities).
OP
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I can see them doing away with random rolls if there are ways to progress your gear through other means. I just want variance and power when it comes to gear, I really dislike that the same gun in any two people's hands is a complete carbon copy of eachother.
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what bothers me the most is the amount of tweaks and quality of life changes that were introduced in D1 or that were being discussed repeatedly and that are not in D2.
And I'm not even talking about the fundamental issues with the loot and token systems, or the absurd change to the weapon system, or the 4v4 in PvP, or Eververse. These are tied to the overall design of the game and as much as I don't like it, I can understand why they did what they did.
I'm talking about strike specific loot, raid weapons with perks useful in the raid, record book, a fricking emote wheel, how is vault space still a problem?
These, among many other, where things people enjoyed and that would not go against their new (and to me incredibly bad), game philosophy.
Which really tells something about the development of this game.
And I'm not even talking about the fundamental issues with the loot and token systems, or the absurd change to the weapon system, or the 4v4 in PvP, or Eververse. These are tied to the overall design of the game and as much as I don't like it, I can understand why they did what they did.
I'm talking about strike specific loot, raid weapons with perks useful in the raid, record book, a fricking emote wheel, how is vault space still a problem?
These, among many other, where things people enjoyed and that would not go against their new (and to me incredibly bad), game philosophy.
Which really tells something about the development of this game.
You don't need random perks...
You need more unique rare drops like Fatebringer with fixed perks but customized (choose 3 from 9 perks like it was before).
Make a lot of unique guns and put it as rare random reward in different activities.
- Kill boss X in Raid Y: 0.05% chance to get weapon Z
- Kill boss A in Strike B: 2.5% chance to get weapon C
- Win Crucible match: 0.01% chance drop weapon E
That what made D1 play satisfying and rewarding... you make the game loop fun.
I bought d1 at release and returned it do to the myriad of issues. Friends kept telling me it was so much better after this snd that xpac. I decided to wait for the next game and not even get caught up buying dlc fo fix an incomplete game. D2 has issues for sure but I still play and enjoy it. Feel its a better game than d1 vanilla by far. To each their own I guess
I think some people need to understand that grinding is not bad especially for looter shooters like Destiny. Those games live and die by the excitement of getting more powerful with your character, cool loot to grind and get, and so on. Mind you, there were some mind-numbing stuff like the trash weapon perks in D1 where Bungie could've removed rather than outright removing random rolls. Say what you want about them, but random rolls made getting weapons more exciting
There's a good reason why weapons like Gjallahorn, Fatebringer, Vex Mythoclast, Vision of Confluence, Thorn, The Last Word, and Suros Regime are still remembered to this day. Because you felt like a god when you used them
There's a good reason why weapons like Gjallahorn, Fatebringer, Vex Mythoclast, Vision of Confluence, Thorn, The Last Word, and Suros Regime are still remembered to this day. Because you felt like a god when you used them