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Extreme Homophobia from the Total War series
- Thread starter CenturionNami
- Start date
Also, Crusader Kings 2 deals with this way better, by having the trait Homossexual giving a slight negative opinion with your vassals (same as being Cruel or Weak) and decreasing the chances of having babies. Also, the terms used to describe homosexual characters in the games mentioned by the OP seem pretty bad by themselves. I mean: "An embarrassing parody of an ugly woman, endlessly prattling on about young boys."
Yeah I don't buy this even remotely. The Roman perspective on these issues is very different than the modern Western one, yet the game presents lazy jokes based on modern insults and stereotypes.
Could I see those examples? Shogun 2 is my favorite Total War so I'd be interested in such examples.
OT: Those are disgusting, I hope this has stopped, especially in Rome II.
OP
OP
The descriptions are very cruel. I think Grace, the lead marketing on the team, is bisexual, so I think she wouldn't be happy at all if she saw these kinds of things in there games, someone should send a message to her on twitter.
OP
OP
Yes. The Greek military was a sanctuary for homosexuals, but things like older politicians offering little boys gifts for sex and companionship was perfectly accepted.
That's fucked up...
Thanks, I'll add Creative Assembly to the list of developers I'll not be supporting in any way.
Thanks, I'll add Creative Assembly to the list of developers I'll not be supporting in any way.
Could you explain where those descriptions appear? Like, are they visible in the game or are they in some hidden files in the game or exclusively avaiable on a Wiki? Find it hard to believe that those describtions were always readily available and no one ever complained o_O
OP
OP
In the game proper, and they appear. There a somewhat rare trait, but you can get them in-game.
Yeah, also women were second class citizens and slavery was common place.
You joke, but they kinda were.
I mean, not to the extent this would be acceptable, but still.
To everyone defending this - SERIOUSLY? Yes, okay, the medieval society was homophobic. But do you have to make such description of "Traits" also homophobic?
Writers should put some context there. Do not write "unholy urges to be with another man". Write "Wanting to embrace another man was seeing as unholy in that time...". Is it so hard?
Writers should put some context there. Do not write "unholy urges to be with another man". Write "Wanting to embrace another man was seeing as unholy in that time...". Is it so hard?
No. Why would it be?
These things were obviously green-lit and no one during development stopped it... So, it's a developer with some seriously homophobic tendencies.
15 years ago...
Given industry turnover trends it's very likely the dude who wrote that flavor dialog hasn't worked there in 10 years.
https://www.honga.net/totalwar/traits.php?v=m2tw&f=byzantium&c=all&page=4
Type: DykeWoman
Title: Potentially Confused
Description: Has been known to flirt with other ladies of the court.
Effects: +1 Charm
Title: Prefers Women
Description: Understood to prefer female company, regardless of the occasion.
Effects: -1 Charm, Decreases the chance of having children
Type: DykeWoman
Title: Potentially Confused
Description: Has been known to flirt with other ladies of the court.
Effects: +1 Charm
Title: Prefers Women
Description: Understood to prefer female company, regardless of the occasion.
Effects: -1 Charm, Decreases the chance of having children
The penalties are mainly to authority, which represents how loyal your troops are. Basically representing homophobia of the troops. It's not like they are saying gay people are worse at fighting or strategy.
But it is something that they probably should have done much better. You can depict homophobia without insulting people.
You have any examples from within the past decade to know if it's something they still have a problem with?
I think the descriptions are the issue not necessarily the translation to game mechanics. They could have and should have been handled better.
Sexuality and how it was viewed by people in that place at that time was complexed and nuanced. There was plenty of graffiti on the streets of Rome making fun of or politically attacking important people with homosexual references, but they tended to focus on being the submissive partner. Not so much on the aspect of having a sexual encounter with the same gender.
Some things might not have been spoken aloud in polite company, but for example, it wasn't uncommon for great men to take on young boys under their wing and teach them the ways of the world.... and it was kind of understood that sometimes, perhaps often times these relationships were sexual in nature. Very complex stuff.
Sexuality and how it was viewed by people in that place at that time was complexed and nuanced. There was plenty of graffiti on the streets of Rome making fun of or politically attacking important people with homosexual references, but they tended to focus on being the submissive partner. Not so much on the aspect of having a sexual encounter with the same gender.
Some things might not have been spoken aloud in polite company, but for example, it wasn't uncommon for great men to take on young boys under their wing and teach them the ways of the world.... and it was kind of understood that sometimes, perhaps often times these relationships were sexual in nature. Very complex stuff.
Rome was not homophobic. Rome was misogynistic. Homosexuality and homophobia means nothing to Roman society. It simply does not exist. You are being anachronistic.
Women were expected to be passive and men were expected to be dominant. If a man was rumoured to be the "bottom" he was mocked for taking on a woman's role, not for having sex with another man.
There was a rumour that Caesar had a sexual relationship with the King of Bithynia and that he assumed a passive role in the sexual relationship... that's why his soldiers mocked him by calling him the "Queen of Bithynia".
This is classic misogyny.
Ancient Greece and Rome's view on sexuality was based on the dichotomy of Dominant vs Passive.
Our modern view of sexuality: hetero-, bi- and homo-sexuality.
Are the games still being sold?
That means this shit is still happening today, not just 15 years ago.
This...is incredibly disappointing to see as someone who loved OG Rome Total War to no end and also quite enjoyed Medieval II. I'd probably call Rome Total War maybe my favorite game ever...until I found out about how homophobic the game is. Perhaps I never really paid attention to this when I was a teen first playing it and I don't recalling seeing these descriptions when I played Rome again back in 2012-2013. But seeing that homosexual characters having negative descriptions and stats is gross. Sure historically speaking it was frowned upon to be gay in public back in those time periods, but it doesn't mean you have to make gay characters bad.
I'll still stand by my enjoyment of Rome Total War as it certainly is one of my most played games. I just don't think I can call it my favorite game ever anymore after learning about this. Glad Creatuve Assembly has moved on from the "Make gay characters crappy" nonsense in later games though.
I'll still stand by my enjoyment of Rome Total War as it certainly is one of my most played games. I just don't think I can call it my favorite game ever anymore after learning about this. Glad Creatuve Assembly has moved on from the "Make gay characters crappy" nonsense in later games though.
Yeesh, that's pretty bad. Like, it would be fine if it was just some penalties, but the descriptions are straight up terrible, even for the time these games were developed.
Cultures in the past were overwhelming less homophobic, you can go back all the way to old European or South Asian time periods to find plenty of historical evidence of the pervasiveness and acceptance of gay or lesbian culture, there's literally temples in India that have gay sex statues at every corner and wall
A great deal of the homophobia crap is very very recent like within only hundreds of years and in some cases even less with all the bible thumping shit in america
The in-game descriptions and the variable names are definitely the biggest issue here.
Tiers 3 and 4 of the trait do give a malus to Commanding, which I assume means how good the character is at ordering his troops around. I imagine that would be akin to having a "Very homossexual" trai on CK2 giving the character -2 to martial or something.
Tiers 3 and 4 of the trait do give a malus to Commanding, which I assume means how good the character is at ordering his troops around. I imagine that would be akin to having a "Very homossexual" trai on CK2 giving the character -2 to martial or something.
Yeah if it's possible they should definitely patch it out. Make some noise about it on Twitter or something, CA might not even be aware it's there after all these years.
Only in some city states.
Bingo!!
I don't see any problem with this.
It's horrendous, but it's also period accurate and logical.
Which is what I assume they were going for.
It's horrendous, but it's also period accurate and logical.
Which is what I assume they were going for.
I can't believe people are using the freaking "Historical Accuracy" argument to defend this. This is disgusting.
Rome TW is 15 years old fwiw.
But the stuff should obviously have been patched out if that's possible for a game that old.
OP
OP
The old fashioned, girl on girl is hot, but actually lesbians are disgusting. Fucking horrible.
That's still homophobia, even if it's through a misogynistic lens (which plenty of homophobia is still viewed through, hence gay men being seen as 'wimpy', effeminate, and depicted as having speech patterns and accents that are associated with women ala Paul Lynde).
Don't know about Rome but in Greece it was quite normal.
Edit:
They could have balanced it with some benefits.
It's not logical whatsoever, what the fuck.
You can convey these aspects without using blatantly homophobic language. Crusader Kings 2 absolutely manages to do this tastefully, for instance.
Ok their descriptions are crass, but I'm willing to give they some benefit of the doubt.
I really enjoy total war games so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
If i remember correctly there were other traits that are offensive, in fact the early games when CA was smaller were full of weird ahistorical things; like the amazon siberian town in rome total war. I also remember Christianity and paganism being better then all other religions gameplaywise. If i also remember correctly the cities that aren't in Europe are usually economically inferior to europe (which if i remember my history it was almost the exact opposite, with north africa being very important to the roman empire). The general speeches were also very misognistic.
CA has been improving a lot in their recent games. For example religions in attila all give different buffs and penalties thus there isn't a "better " religion.
If i remember correctly there were other traits that are offensive, in fact the early games when CA was smaller were full of weird ahistorical things; like the amazon siberian town in rome total war. I also remember Christianity and paganism being better then all other religions gameplaywise. If i also remember correctly the cities that aren't in Europe are usually economically inferior to europe (which if i remember my history it was almost the exact opposite, with north africa being very important to the roman empire). The general speeches were also very misognistic.
CA has been improving a lot in their recent games. For example religions in attila all give different buffs and penalties thus there isn't a "better " religion.