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Seems like Reddit is already in panic mode.
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/c...justice_is_targeting/?st=jm5qsv5g&sh=9482f7c8
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/c...justice_is_targeting/?st=jm5qsv5g&sh=9482f7c8
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Extreme Homophobia from the Total War series
- Thread starter CenturionNami
- Start date
Well, that was quick. I don't even know why they are worried, it's a decade old game, it's not gonna get patched. Even so, it's still important to bring these kinds of things to light, so we can improve as a community and industry.
Some people seem incapable to understand that some things are just not okay anymore, like, you know, making fun of queer folk, or normalizing harmful stereotypes.
Some people seem incapable to understand that some things are just not okay anymore, like, you know, making fun of queer folk, or normalizing harmful stereotypes.
Iirc medieval 2 got a patch over something a year or two ago, so anything is possible really when it comes to PC games
Hell system shock 2 got a patch like 6 months ago
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Like I said, there response to woman being able to have major roles in Rome 2 as generals and politicians was very negative, and alot of their content creators (Legends of Total War and such) associate with the alt right and have done some stupid jokes.
As usual, their crying over persecuted classes of people demanding people acknowledge their humanity is going to likely be the thing that stirs the pot enough that Sega takes notice and gives CA the money to patch it in the first place.
True, I just find it hard for old games to get patches that are not bug fixes and small balance patches. I guess there is a chance that the descriptions could be changed, but I still doubt it.
I will take your word for it, since I don't play these games. I did notice some of the posters on that thread are also posters in less than savory subreddits.
I guess I just wasn't expecting anyone outside of here to really care about this, since it's from such and old pair of games.
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And it was a way that was historically accurate too; Roman and Greek females couldn't be Generals, and it was relegated to Barbarian, Eastern, and African factions only. They don't care about accuracy, they just want there Gamergate hugbox.
Hahaha they're so fucking shook by us! What a bunch of snowflakes lol!
Watch out, Reddit! We're here to ruin your fun and take away all your games by making you recognize blatant homophobia when you see it in games!
Boogity boogity boo!
can we like not do the cross forum war thing please
It's petty and a dumb waste of everyone's time.
It's petty and a dumb waste of everyone's time.
While I of course understand that it's a disgusting "joke", I do want to point out that this was not too uncommon back then. I think most people forget how much society has moved past bigotry towards lgbtq people. Hell, you had "liberal" commentators making transphobic jokes and barely anyone cared. It was simply more acceptable back then.
http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/post/50119377326/stephen-colbert
http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/post/50119377326/stephen-colbert
I set Google Translate to English->Latin and typed in "fruitcake". The result it gave me was "fruitcake".
Yeah, but not really. Most comments are saying ERA comments are balanced, reasonable and calling out the Reddit poster for stirring shit.
You can listen to people you disagree with without shattering. Try it!
Few people micromanage traits and followers and even then, you generally don't interact with with them beyond their stats. These traits were among stuff like "fearful", "greedy, "mighty" and similar stuff. Not exactly something you go read the exact description of.
Iirc, you couldn't even do much about them in the old games and their effect wasn't that strong even on higher difficulties.
I don't mean to defend the descriptions, just explain why few people paid attention to them.
I mean... In tone now I get why people would be upset. But at the same time it wasn't so much a reflection of homosexuality being a bad thing. As how society treated people who were homosexual in those cultures at the time. I can't really say that strikes me as anti gay necessarily.
Though, some of those "quotes". While maybe accurate to things that would have been said are entirely unnecessary flavor text. So, I mean yea, that probably should go at least.
Though, some of those "quotes". While maybe accurate to things that would have been said are entirely unnecessary flavor text. So, I mean yea, that probably should go at least.
Exactly. "Historical accuracy" was absolutely not the main motivation behind these. The modern gay stereotypes and slurs used are exactly that: modern. The developers were just being homophobic assholes.
Seems to be in the past though, I looked through the trait list of Rome 2 and the only one related to sexuality I could find was one that spoke more about if a character was interested in "weird sex".
Seems like they have dropped the sexuality traits since Medieval 2? Which is good, but yeah it's kinda big levels of awful in those old games.
Level 1
Minion
There are pleasures of the flesh that only some enjoy.
-1 authority (this_agent)
-10 to chance of having children (this_agent)
Level 2
Catamite
"It makes me happy."
-2 authority (this_agent)
-20 to chance of having children (this_agent)
Level 3
Foully Used
"The 'who' or 'what' doesn't matter. The 'how' usually does."
-3 authority (this_agent)
-30 to chance of having children (this_agent)
Seems like they have dropped the sexuality traits since Medieval 2? Which is good, but yeah it's kinda big levels of awful in those old games.
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It's been dropped in later games, thankfully, I never saw anything of the like...besides the Last Roman Campaign which portrays Belasarius as a cuckhold to his wife (which is historically accurate)
I havent played either of these games.
If it is historically accurate I cant find fault with this.
Medieval takes place during the Middle Ages correct? If so, I cant see how homophobia isnt historically accurate, I mean that was the most shameful era in the history of human race... homophobia sounds like nothing compared to the rest of the atrocities that took place.
But again, I havent played these games so my opinion isnt as solid on this one.
If it is historically accurate I cant find fault with this.
Medieval takes place during the Middle Ages correct? If so, I cant see how homophobia isnt historically accurate, I mean that was the most shameful era in the history of human race... homophobia sounds like nothing compared to the rest of the atrocities that took place.
But again, I havent played these games so my opinion isnt as solid on this one.
Oh wow, so we get angry in retrospect nowadays?
This is similar to James Gunn (or whoever that director person was who was sacked by Disney). It is history, company has clearly learned from their mistakes by not including that stuff anymore.
Or is this a case of "if you ever do anything wrong, you are bad for the rest of your life"? Does it apply to former prisoners too? Do you think that there can be no salvation for humans, they are what they are always, they can't grow as a person?
This is similar to James Gunn (or whoever that director person was who was sacked by Disney). It is history, company has clearly learned from their mistakes by not including that stuff anymore.
Or is this a case of "if you ever do anything wrong, you are bad for the rest of your life"? Does it apply to former prisoners too? Do you think that there can be no salvation for humans, they are what they are always, they can't grow as a person?
So you have no understanding of the period, don't play the games, and haven't actually read the original post or the thread at all. Congratulations for this sterling effort and commentary.
This has nothing to do with historical accuracy. Those descriptions are pure modern homophobia. It's also disingenuous to say 'back in the days of early gaming' as some posters are doing. It's was 2006 Ffs. I'd been gaming for 15 years at that point. That language was absolutely not acceptable in most places outside of the Deep South in the west.
I'm not sure you're remembering correctly.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/daryl-deino/a-former-teachers-perspec_b_9287900.html
https://www.refinery29.com/2016/09/124411/2000s-movies-sexist-plots
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...past-the-anti-gay-politics-of-the-90s/266976/
Entertainment was filled with movies that contained rampant homophobia, ableism, misogyny, racism you name it. And like my post above, even progressives joked about this garbage. It was the norm.
Just a few years earlier you had "respected" politicians openly calling gay people sick degenerates.
You are being delusional if you think that in 2006 things like that were not normal, we've seen more progress in the last few years then all past decades combined.
it genuinely infuriates me that you think this way, only in the deep south in the west? in 2006?? jesus christ.
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I wonder if anyone has actually read the thread they're linking. Reddit isn't in "panick mode", they're saying this thread is reasonable and that that content was problematic.
Allow me to believe that you have no understanding of the period if you think that back then being homosexual was not frowned upon and that you werent in serious danger if other people knew about it. Also your aggressive and ironic tone makes it feel like we are "enemies" or something. We arent.
Edit: for silly typo
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I'm a 40 year old gay guy. I'm extremely conscious of the speed and pace of change for LGBT rights. Maybe in America it was different, but by 2006 the language used isn't ehlinks was absolutely not mainstream in any way. None of the links provided are anywhere near as close as what's in the total warhammer game files linked.
People in this topic - most of them anyway - are discussing the levels of homophobia a game could have at that time. A game is a product of it's time, and bringing this kind of thing up is important, at least to me, since it gives an outlet to see how much the industry has improved and how much the community surrounding it still has to get better at treating fellow human beings. That there are people defending or deflecting this kind of content should serve as an example to how some still hold backwards view of queer and transgender folk.
As mentioned by the OP themselves, modern games of the series left that kind of shit behind, and it is good to discuss why that shit is not okay and why it was left behind.
Not to derail the thread too much, but a good percentage of the comments were pretty garbage, even using "faggot" at one point, and with some asking for us to kill ourselves.
The descriptions are completely unnecessary and homophobic. People being homophobic in the past does not justify a game being now. The malus the characters get for being homosexual are more than enough to show how society treated them, you don't need to add a joke at their expense.
I've read some of the other negative traits, and none of their descriptions are as vile as the ones related to homosexuality. As shown by Crusader Kings II, which has a "homosexual" trait that says "this character is a bit queer...", there is no need to be so extreme.
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Whats your problem? That post is downvoted to hell, and the comments are supporting the argument against the game. Quit creating your false narrative
You guys seem like fools for not even checking the thread. Read my previous post.
It's not that it's not accurate, it's just that some of the descriptions are stereotypical and, yes, homophobic. I mean, the "Shameless Queen" and "Foreign Fruitcake" descriptions are pretty bad by today's standards.
But, as even the OP has suggested, it's a product of its time and the company and series has evolved beyond that. No one is saying "burn your copies of Medieval", it's more like "look where we were and how much things have changed" IMO.
My interpretation is that society in general didn't care about this kind of stuff as much as it does now. I can only speak for my own country/personal experience, but people were extremely okay about making jokes at the expense of LGBT people, openly using "gay" as a derogatory term and so on. Even in my family, they avoid talking about my uncle's death, because he was homossexual and died of AIDS, so they saw that as a black mark to whom was otherwise the most beloved person in the family.
I do think that people, here, are being a bit disingenuous, probably because they think the descriptions in the OP are not that egregious, considering the historical tone of the series we are talking about. The Sims, which came out pretty much at the same time as Total War, also had same-sex relationships and I don't remember there being anything like this in that game.
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I for one never implied that anyone here suggested burning copies of Medieval or Total War or anything like that.
I merely offered the opinion that sometimes, even nowadays, devs have to present certain social aspects in their games to accurately depict a specific era.
Mafia 3 for example has a ton to do about racial slur and uses some pretty hard language as was the case during the historical period the game takes place.
It is a good thing that the game comes with a disclaimer before you start it, stating that in order to tell the story they want and be truthful to the era it takes place in, they have to use hard language and extensive racist dialogue. To be honest i dont even see why there should be a disclaimer, i mean it should be a given that anyone who uses these things has a purpose storywise/theme-wise.
I agree though that the traits here in Medieval and Total War feel rather distasteful and unecessarily provocative and not used as purposefully as in Mafia 3.
Like I said though i havent played these games to see whether they touch these themes or not and if they had any purpose for them. Looking at the comments here it feels like they did not.
If nothing else, this incident has been very educational. I learned that homophobia is a sliding scale, which increases linearly the further back you go regardless of where you are or who you're around, and the word "fruitcake" has retained its slang meaning all the from Proto-Indo-European through to contemporary English.
Well the Ancient Greeks were not homophobes that's for sure, those Spartans loved some man on man time
Even the Ancient Macedonians had a "Great" leader who was openly gay
I found this article very interesting:
Get this gamergate shit out of here.
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The person you quoted said the should put Ellie and her girlfriend from the Last of Us in breeding camps because there lesbians in the ApocalypseI found this article very interesting:
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It's a goobergate site. Get 3-4 paragraphs in and there they are, the dual nemesis of these incel losers: Zoe and Anita. These sad excuses for an organism live vicariously through the successful women that they hate.
Yeah, it's pretty interesting and this thread made me read a few articles on homosexuality in past civilisations.
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