Far Cry 5 and the Art of Saying Nothing (Spoilers) Errant Signal

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,557
Greater Vancouver
Those aren't their views though. That's literally the whole problem with your position.

You don't get to say that because alt rightists think black people are biologically inferior that most conservatives have that belief, for example, because most don't. So being harsh on them and mischaractarizing them is not just being harsh; it's being wrong. I prefer to not do that. You are confusing two issues I have here.
And yet we see no meaningful pushback from within conservative movements to defend black people. We see no traction within conservative movements for women's rights. Again, you can say it's a mischaracterization, but there is zero punitive action from within right wing circles against such beliefs. They can say it's not their views, yet they continually support these policies with their vote.

I don't care who the onus falls on. You're not answering my question.
If I was inaccurately describing these voters, this is something I would consider. But I look at the political landscape and the continued behavior of conservative politics, and I see zero inconsistency.

This is not what I said.
You said conservative voices don't like being generalized for extreme right wing politics. Okay. What standard then should they be judged by if not for the way that they vote? Because you're saying leftist critics are calling them murderers:

Like literally man, we learned this since I was young, that missionaries who go around teaching everyone they meet are bad people, have a bad time. If you tell someone they are bad, they instantly get on the defensive, and you've already lost. Instead, you will be a much more effective missionary if you talk to someone, understand their motivation, and then lead them in a different direction. It won't happen in one conversation. It takes a while. You have to plant doubt in their mind so that they have the motivation to go search it out and be convinced themselves. Like. I physically saw that. In practice. That works. I have NEVER seen "you are a bad person and you suck and you probably want to kill people" work. It doesn't. Ever. I don't care how right you think it is; it is counterproductive. That's the seemingly contradictory part, but that's how it is. You will never convince someone to change to your position by attacking them. And if that is the case, why are you doing it? To feel better about yourself?

Making them out to be murderers is so stupid. Because instantly every single one will go "Hey, I'm not a murderer. These liberals are just making me out to be a bad guy! See how screwed up their view is of me? The idiots."
So I ask you, when has scientific data, statistical evidence of social inequality, testimonies from victims of marginalization, etc. ever mattered to conservative voters? Because if that were the case, America would not be in the state it is now. With all the data available, when have conservative politicians looked at the numerous detailed reports indicating wildly uneven and biased patterns of arrests and convictions against minorities resulted in someone saying "This is not okay, we need to do better"? Where is the conservative progress on that front?

You see, you can keep saying conservatives are painted with too wide a brush, but there are no signs that these same people would act or vote any differently in response to the garbage of the grander right wing movement.

What does "Islamist" motivations mean? If someone who is Muslim wants to affect law, guided by their Islamic beliefs, do we say that's wrong and attack them just because someone else took those believes and used them horribly?
Considering the mountains of problems Islamist nations face in regards to rights of women, rights of LGBT individuals, etc., yeah, we pretty openly condemn that notion under the basis of "the separation of church and state." And these same criticisms can and should be levied against law-makers basing policy off of Christian fundamentalism.


If we're going to round this back to Far Cry 5, the game using loaded religious or nationalistic imagery bears a weight and responsibility. The game saying nothing can still mean it's "fine," but it made its pitch and it wants to use the coding of which to evoke a reaction. Both the way FC5 and Infinite choose to engage with their language can only be described as cowardly.
 
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MegaBeefBowl

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,890
Nah, this won't fly.

I'm surprised that anyone who actually finished Far Cry 5 can actually believe this stuff, yet I see it again and again from people who try to defend its narrative.

*Snip*

The only message that anyone could get out of Far Cry 5 is that nothing matters. But even that is handled quite poorly, which is why so many people think the game has a shitty narrative.
Pretty much mirrors all of my thoughts about that take on Far Cry 5's narrative. It's a bad defense of a bad narrative full of hollow, eye-roll inducing dialogue. Any claim that the game turns the mirror on you and it's effective in any way, shape, or form is absurd.

But whatever. Capture me 9 times and tell me that I was the villain all along, then let me go, I guess.
 

David

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,002
Neo Yokio
Art is an expression of creativity, of culture, politics, society, perspective, or of identity. Either by critique, reflection, or subversion, whether intended or otherwise. By all standards, regardless of a publisher's commercial intent, games fall into this category. You shrugging and saying "nah" gives you no power to deny the medium that definition.
Is important to differentiate between YOUR definition of art Vs others definition of art.

Don’t treat it like your definition is an objective one or if anyone else see it that day.

Games aren’t art, just entertainment products and they don’t need to be considered art to make people have fun.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,557
Greater Vancouver
Is important to differentiate between YOUR definition of art Vs others definition of art.

Don’t treat it like your definition is an objective one or if anyone else see it that day.

Games aren’t art, just entertainment products and they don’t need to be considered art to make people have fun.
Not every game is built solely around people having fun. Papers Please isn't fun, Her Story isn't fun, That Dragon, Cancer isn't fun. But they are still built on personal and complex human ideas, and engaging the audience into empathizing with either the characters or the scenario. And a game doesn't get to divorce itself of artistic examination unless itself is divorced of anything resembling humanity or concepts human beings can meaningfully understand.
 

MegaBeefBowl

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,890
"The Oxford Dictionary defines 'Art' as..."

Art can't be entertaining or fun, I guess? Also there are plenty of games that are not fun by design.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
And yet we see no meaningful pushback from within conservative movements to defend black people. We see no traction within conservative movements for women's rights. Again, you can say it's a mischaracterization, but there is zero punitive action from within right wing circles against such beliefs. They can say it's not their views, yet they continually support these policies with their vote.
Nor do I see meaningful pushback from Muslims against extremists. That could be anecdotal, but that just proves my point.

I didn't see liberals going after Nazi punchers who went in with a mob mentality and started attacking non-Nazi's that were misidentified. I know there are better examples but I'm tired right now and can't think of them just at the moment.

And plus I already explained why most conservatives don't even know this stuff happens. It never occurs to them. The only exposure they get to it is when some crazy liberal takes something that isn't about race (like the girl who thought dreads should only be worn by black people, which btw, never saw any liberals criticizing her), and makes it about race. That is the only exposure many, many conservatives experience to "modern racism" which is why they don't experience it.

And no you don't get to attack them for ignorance. Willful ignorance sure, but happenstantial no, because that's the entire issue with being ignorant; you don't know you don't know.

Also:

They can say it's not their views, yet they continually support these policies with their vote.
I have already addressed this. 1. they believe democrats are a worse vote (which you are incapable of explaining why beyond racism apparenetly), and 2. Conservatives =/= Republicans.

If I believe that one person is specifically interested in breaking down my society and restricting freedoms from everyone, then maybe one who is kinda foul mouthed but against that restriction doesn't look so bad. This is vastly oversimplified, and yeah, I have some problems with it. But you aren't even attempting to understand their perspective. You want it to be about racism and bigotry and violence because that's easier for you to demonize.

If I was inaccurately describing these voters, this is something I would consider. But I look at the political landscape and the continued behavior of conservative politics, and I see zero inconsistency.
This has nothing to do with my question.

You said conservative voices don't like being generalized for extreme right wing politics. Okay. What standard then should they be judged by if not for the way that they vote? Because you're saying leftist critics are calling them murderers:
No I didn't say that. I said nothing about how you should judge them. Good lord. This isn't hard. I said it multiple times.

So I ask you, when has scientific data, statistical evidence of social inequality, testimonies from victims of marginalization, etc. ever mattered to conservative voters? Because if that were the case, America would not be in the state it is now. With all the data available, when have conservative politicians looked at the numerous detailed reports indicating wildly uneven and biased patterns of arrests and convictions against minorities resulted in someone saying "This is not okay, we need to do better"? Where is the conservative progress on that front?

You see, you can keep saying conservatives are painted with too wide a brush, but there are no signs that these same people would act or vote any differently in response to the garbage of the grander right wing movement.
Like the way you view conservatives, so too do they view information coming from liberals. Since liberals loudly and brashly and accusingly point out these things, tying them to non-existent guilt, then you get, as I have said repeatedly, people who are resistant to the liberal message, regardless of how virtuous or truthful. It's been delivered in an increasingly inflammatory and accusatory manner, and liberals have made it so, so easy for malicious individuals to bias their viewers. I think if anyone should be concerned about bad members of their movement, it would be liberals, because nonsense like Buzzfeed is killing your guys' ability to be effective.

That's not to say it's all the liberals fault. I just pointed out that there is more at play here. And again, why do you think I left conservativism? That doesn't mean it is responsible or useful to misrepresent what conservativism is.

Considering the mountains of problems Islamist nations face in regards to rights of women, rights of LGBT individuals, etc., yeah, we pretty openly condemn that notion under the basis of "the separation of church and state." And these same criticisms can and should be levied against law-makers basing policy off of Christian fundamentalism.
Sure, but whenever criticism of Islam is brought up, I see nothing but "Not all Muslims believe in things like lying to infidels" etc. from the liberal side. They are quick to defend and point out the inconsistency there. Why? I don't know. Maybe enemy of my enemy (conservative Christians), I don't know. But it's kind of laughable. Decide. Is it okay to criticize Islam or not, because you are one of the very few I've met who didn't react very negatively to criticism of Islam and try to shut it down.

If we're going to round this back to Far Cry 5, the game using loaded religious or nationalistic imagery bears a weight and responsibility. The game saying nothing can still mean it's "fine," but it made its pitch and it wants to use the coding of which to evoke a reaction. Both the way FC5 and Infinite choose to engage with their language can only be described as cowardly.
Okay, but what if I want to use the US to talk about a cult? The US can be very effective at giving the effect of "in your back yard." One should be able to talk about cults unrelated to conservativism. Are you like, not aware of history? Koolaid? That situation had nothing to do with conservativism or even Christianity. Why can't a game be about that kind of situation? Or something in between? There's an infinite amount of story potential in there. Demanding it conform to a liberal sermon is silly. Not to mention...

Look, if we're talking about being effective, it's usually actually way way more effective to talk about something in terms that someone isn't biased in regards to. So say, if I want to tell a guy he is being selfish, generally a more effective way is to show him a situation of someone being selfish (making that person a girl, maybe from a different country, can help distance it more, and help disarm the person), again completely unrelated to him. Then once he acknowledges how crappy that selfish person in the situation, you then gently compare it to him, or, better, don't. Hopefully, if you told it well enough, it'll start to bug him. You've got to get that crack of doubt in before you can start working with someone.

And again. AGAIN. I am not talking about what the selfish person deserves. I am not talking about his feelings. Idgaf. But if you want less people to be selfish, then you have to reckon with human nature, and you are going to be a failure until you grapple with that and quit singing loudly from your church of liberal dogma. Might make you feel nice. It might be just and fair. But it won't effect change. Likewise with any aspect of human nature.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
-killed his newly born daughter by closing her air tube until she suffocated to death. He shows no regret for this action.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Of course God was only testing Abraham and stopped him, but Abraham was going to go through with it. Imagine if Abraham's God had been Joseph Seed's enigmatic "Voice". It's a challenging concept that is in its own something of a critique of the foundation of Christianity. God is love, but God does demand absolute obedience to the point of demanding that you go through the motions of killing your own child.
-It's heavily implied that he regularly physically abuses those below him, including his brothers
-It's heavily implied that he raped Faith
-He gouges a man's eyes out in the opening cutscene
-through outside of game supplemental videos, we learn that he's drowned people while baptizing them. Again, showing no remorse.
Joseph is a bad, bad man. All the Seeds are bad people and they readily admit that they and the others are bad people. Joseph's argument is that he didn't choose this role. It was thrust upon him. He says things like, "I do not claim to be a perfect man," and John says things like, "Even the Father knows deeply of sin."
-He has a giant stone statue of himself built in the middle of Hope county (and you want to get on the player for hubris?).
I'm pretty sure Faith built the statue using her slave labour, but Joseph did allow it. Also, building the statue wasn't defying the gods. Hubris in Greek tragedy is arrogance towards, or defiance of, the will of the gods.
-has beliefs that lead him to brutally torture* victims until they confess to every "sin" they've ever committed.
*He carries out this torture by flaying his victims alive and decorating the walls with their bloody flesh.
-It's heavily implied that this torture has killed victims, and all of the crazy cultists are said to be afraid of him
While this is all true, don't forget what you find in his bunker. It's full of prisoners and devotees. After people are inducted into the cult through the extremely gruesome, "cut your sins out" ceremonies, they are welcomed into the cult. Remember the cultist in the quarters praying for the strength to forgive new converts who might have committed terrible acts against the cult? The underpinning idea of Eden's Gate is that their terrible ceremonies will make sense to you in the end. John is interesting because you notice that he has an extremely cruel streak. Joseph calls him out on it when John almost drowns you. "You have to love them, John. Don't let your sin prevent that." Also, John is told that unless you "come to the atonement" "The Gates of Eden will be shut" to him.
-Regularly uses drugs to trick people into joining a militaristic cult
-Has (no joke) created an army of braindead slaves out of victims who refuse to join the cult. These slaves are then used for manual labor and as cannon fodder
Faith is interesting because there have been several women named Faith. The others all either died or were killed. It's somewhat ambiguous. But that's why Faith's region is so deeply rooted in the idea of free will. Faith doesn't really have free will. The Bliss... The Bliss presents some narrative problems. It's like a liquid version of the Pieces of Eden from Assassin's Creed, when you think about it. One thing about the bliss is that from notes in the game, one of the purposes of the bliss is to help people cope with the horrors to come. That's why they have a huge stockpile of it.
-After trying to get young children to eat their parents (they refuse) he then forces them to watch as their parents are burned alive
-Sees human life as worthless and practices extreme Darwinism. Willing to kill anyone he sees as weak (he has done this a lot)
-Captures, starves, and tortures countless people and animals with the goal of turning them into mindless killing machines.
-Visibly shows no compassion for anyone but his brother
He's a bad man. Hardcore pragmatist preparing for "nature red in tooth and claw" survival in a post-apocalyptic world. He's the most cynical of the Seeds. But what makes him particularly interesting is his dying admission that, regardless of whether Joseph actually talks to God, somehow Joseph knew that you would come, and what you would do. That you've unwittingly done everything Joseph predicted you would do, including, presumably, killing Jacob, is a warning to the player.
1. There is no fucking way the player is worse than the cult. The cult isn't saving anyone. Bunkers are spread out all across the map. The Seed cult has objectively made things more difficult for the residents of Hope county to survive a nuclear apocalypse.
The cult has (or had) bunkers full of people. In the end, your actions result in them all being super dead because you freed them even though you were warned over and over again what would happen if you didn't stop. I'm not sure how they objectively made things more difficult. How many non-Peggies actually believed that the end of the world was literally days away, and were prepared for it? Would they have gone into the bunkers willingly?
2. The drugs being used as seeing the future is bullshit for two reasons.
1. There's no real indication that Joseph ever talks to God in the game. Because the developers refused to analyze religion in a game about a religious cult, they bring up some bullshit "psychedelic flower" that somehow (never explained) allows a crazy, psychotic murderer to communicate with God.
Joseph's prophecies aren't based on the Bliss. Remember that he has "the voice" that has told him things at various points in his life. My pet theory is that PERHAPS Joseph Seed is a Sage, from Assassin's Creed. Sages often experience visions or similar experiences starting in childhood. Jacob states that ultimately it doesn't matter whether Joseph talks to God because somehow Joseph is accurately predicting events. Also, there's quite a lot of stuff on the Bliss scattered throughout the game. It's based on a flower, but they had outside help from that chemist to create the drug. Regardless, the nature of the drugs that let you see the future in Far Cry 3 and Far Cry 4 were never explained, and I'd argue it wasn't really a problem there. It's a narrative shortcut. Drugs give you supernatural insight. Ubisoft Logic.
2. It's explicitly stated that the events in the game aren't what lead to the apocalypse. The United States nuked Moscow and Russia retaliated, that's it. The game never tries to explain how you trying to save your friends from a crazy bloodthirsty cult leads to the nukes other than having Joseph say "this is what did it (the seals)." and even that is poorly explained.
Every single seal being broken is telegraphed to the player. Joseph Seed says, "God will not let you take me." You attempt to take him, which of course doesn't work. When he crawls out of the helicopter wreckage, he declares that the first seal has been broken. The concept of the Seven Seals is not exactly difficult to understand. The meaning is explained at length by multiple characters. It's Joseph's interpretation of the Book of Revelations. Faith says that if you don't listen to Joseph, then Joseph will be right. If you don't walk away, the Seventh Seal is broken and pretty much immediately nukes start dropping. If you walk away, this doesn't happen as far as anyone can tell, but you likely kill your friends thanks to Jacob's conditioning.

Also remember that if you attempt to shoot Joseph Seed during the car drive at the end, the car immediately explodes and kills you. They probably should have found a more elegant way to express this, but the game gives you a chance to kill Joseph and then immediately slams your fingers in a door for having the temerity.

I think in the grand scheme of things, Ubisoft should perhaps have depicted that deep uncertainly in a more elegant way. It tries to have it both ways. Maybe Joseph has some deity on his side. Maybe he's just clever and it's all a sham. The game ping-pongs between these being possible, except it also throws heaps of evidence at you that your actions are controlled by prophecy and that your actions directly shape the fabric of reality in some way. An ideal scene would have been to have the player encounter Joseph, but when they try to shoot him, their gun jams. The car exploding when you shoot him isn't particularly nuanced. The ultimate point being, though, that you are not ALLOWED to kill Joseph Seed. It doesn't matter who or what is preventing that, or why. But you cannot kill Seed. And his religious convictions prevent him from killing you. Could he kill you? As in actually kill you and not impotently send Peggies to "express his displeasure"? Well, I think there's a can of worms insomuch that you can't kill the player of a videogame. They'll just keep trying until they succeed. (This was the plot of one of the Marathon games, IIRC. Where the antagonist realises that you can't actually be stopped.)

The question one is forced to ask though, is, "What happens to Eden's Gate if you walk away and the Collapse doesn't come?" Taking for granted that if you walk away, the collapse is averted.

I think that Far Cry 5 comes across very differently to the other Far Cry games because it leans so heavily upon the question, "What if <deity here> is actually on their side? Am I prepared for the consequences of that?" Yet it refuses to outright answer that question or even clarify the underpinning context, instead preferring to wink at the player from time to time. Like, imagine if The Jackal from Far Cry 2 had claimed to be on a mission from God. And the game dropped all sorts of hints that he has some kind of divine protection. That would make the game extremely difficult to parse. Adding the supernatural to stories like this causes a lot of side effects, particularly if you add it in a "Is he or isn't he...?" way.
 
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Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,557
Greater Vancouver
Okay, but what if I want to use the US to talk about a cult? The US can be very effective at giving the effect of "in your back yard." One should be able to talk about cults unrelated to conservativism. Are you like, not aware of history? Koolaid? That situation had nothing to do with conservativism or even Christianity. Why can't a game be about that kind of situation? Or something in between? There's an infinite amount of story potential in there. Demanding it conform to a liberal sermon is silly. Not to mention...

Look, if we're talking about being effective, it's usually actually way way more effective to talk about something in terms that someone isn't biased in regards to. So say, if I want to tell a guy he is being selfish, generally a more effective way is to show him a situation of someone being selfish (making that person a girl, maybe from a different country, can help distance it more, and help disarm the person), again completely unrelated to him. Then once he acknowledges how crappy that selfish person in the situation, you then gently compare it to him, or, better, don't. Hopefully, if you told it well enough, it'll start to bug him. You've got to get that crack of doubt in before you can start working with someone.

And again. AGAIN. I am not talking about what the selfish person deserves. I am not talking about his feelings. Idgaf. But if you want less people to be selfish, then you have to reckon with human nature, and you are going to be a failure until you grapple with that and quit singing loudly from your church of liberal dogma. Might make you feel nice. It might be just and fair. But it won't effect change. Likewise with any aspect of human nature.
At this point, I'll respond with a DM for the previous points because we're going wildly off the rails from the topic itself.

Far Cry 5 wanting to talk about cults is fine, but they deliberately evoked a reaction with a setting and imagery strongly associated around small-town rural America and militant conservatism. Especially in the last couple years, that reveal had weight. The reaction to it had nothing to do with "Oh, it's about cults like Jim Jones or Charles Manson." A guy in a small church while holding up an assault rifle, singing Amazing Grace evokes a pretty specific set of ideas.

By one of the creative leads' own statement, the spark of the game's inspiration came from the economic crisis years prior more than anything related to today. But that trailer wasn't created in 2012, it was created in 2017, with probably pre-production in 2016. So even if it didn't intend at the start to tackle those themes, Ubi leaned into it, atleast early on.

According to the people at the reveal event, journalists were speaking to experts on militias, or former members themselves. But by the statements those people apparently gave about the nature of cults or militias, even if Ubisoft had never intended to deal in American nationalism, Far Cry 5 doesn't even live up to that.


And this is all walking around the fact that even within religious cults, issues of race or xenophobia or sexism are still norms. Dogma within these structures still inflict ways to segregate or marginalize. They aren't divorced from it, they just find their own ways to adapt to it.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
At this point, I'll respond with a DM for the previous points because we're going wildly off the rails from the topic itself.

Far Cry 5 wanting to talk about cults is fine, but they deliberately evoked a reaction with a setting and imagery strongly associated around small-town rural America and militant conservatism. Especially in the last couple years, that reveal had weight. The reaction to it had nothing to do with "Oh, it's about cults like Jim Jones or Charles Manson." A guy in a small church while holding up an assault rifle, singing Amazing Grace evokes a pretty specific set of ideas.
Alright I will give you this one. The marketing portrayed something and set up expectations, and that was probably intentional. While I have not played Wolfenstein II yet (really excited to! I'm just broke), it does sound like Wolfenstein II actually matched up with what was portrayed in its marketing.

I just tend to view games on their own terms. Similarly, I get why people were angry at Halo 5 for not at all matching its marketing, but personally I couldn't really get up in arms about it.

I will point out though, that many, many small cults base their general imagery around Christianity (why not cop what's successful?), which is what I meant by "Or something in between? " I literally had friends of the family when I was very young almost get caught up in one. Cults are very interesting, and I think we should be able to explore even very Christian sounding ones that are decidedly not Christian, and allow for that distinction without demanding anything that looks like Christianity be a comment on Christianity. If I want to make a story involving a knock off brand of a given line of jewelry, I don't immediately have to make it a commentary about how the actual jewelry company is a scam, or how diamonds are a scam, or whatever, even if I may feel that way. There are legitimate stories that are just as valid and deserve to be told just as much, that are about similar things to hot button issues, as the stories that are actually about those hot button issues.

By one of the creative leads' own statement, the spark of the game's inspiration came from the economic crisis years prior more than anything related to today. But that trailer wasn't created in 2012, it was created in 2017, with probably pre-production in 2016. So even if it didn't intend at the start to tackle those themes, Ubi leaned into it, atleast early on.

According to the people at the reveal event, journalists were speaking to experts on militias, or former members themselves. But by the statements those people apparently gave about the nature of cults or militias, even if Ubisoft had never intended to deal in American nationalism, Far Cry 5 doesn't even live up to that.
Then let that be your criticism of it. Does it live up to the goals it sets for itself, and is that goal worth pursuing? That's how I personally like to judge games. I think exploring cults and the messiness of getting involved in them is worth a story. So the second question is satisfied in my view, though it is worth noting the complications you mentioned. As to the first question, it sounds like, from what you are saying, it does not.

I'm not really here to contend that criticism. I just don't like the demand that Far Cry 5 must align with certain presuppositions people placed on it. That it must fit within the established dogma of liberalism that liberals have placed on it given their early impressions. I feel that that is myopic. It DOES NOT MEAN that I don't think those issues should be addressed. Gosh it feels like I'm stuck in between two groups of people, one demanding everything be exactly about not just politics but their specific brand of politics. And the other group demanding there be no discussion of politics. I'm like, why can't we just discuss politics sometimes if we feel we've got a story about em, and also we can discuss things tangential or maybe only loosely related to that.

Still, while I think ultimately it shouldn't matter, you have a point about the marketing. Ubisoft could not have been ignorant of what they were presenting. At least that is very hard for me to believe. I just feel like expectations ought to be reset when actually playing something, although I don't feel that absolves Ubisoft of responsibility.

And this is all walking around the fact that even within religious cults, issues of race or xenophobia or sexism are still norms. Dogma within these structures still inflict ways to segregate or marginalize. They aren't divorced from it, they just find their own ways to adapt to it.
Just to be particular here, since I'm pedantic like that I guess, a number of very successful cults, such as Jim Jones', actually got there by being extremely accepting of a number of marginalized groups. I would love to see a game explore that too, though I feel it would be seen as an attack on liberalism somehow, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Yeah, when I was first playing Infinite I remember associating Daisy with Robespierre and the Reign of Terror. I was surprised later when a lot of people read the situation as the game saying the oppressed were just as bad as the oppressors. Like I can condemn Robespierre and the Terror without stanning for the monarchy. The peasants were right to revolt, even if a lot of what followed was a shitshow.

I do think the reasoning why the Vox fight Booker is pretty weak, especially if the rank and file are suppose to see him as a "hero of the revolution" but then try to snuff him out regardless. It's weird because Infinite had a ready-made reason for them to fight and that would just be Daisy going "Hey I see that girl has powers. That would help our revolution. Give her to us," and Booker going "How about no."
I think Bioshock: Infinite uses a lot of narrative cheats to fit its narrative together. The idea behind Daisy wanting to kill Booker is that Booker is a hero of the revolution. If he comes back from the dead, that raises all sorts of unwanted complications. It's not particularly solid logic, TBH. So much of that section of the game is just the player leaping from one scene to the next connected by timeline hops that avoid the need for actual plot development. And IMHO, the Burial At Sea retcons are hella stupid. Timey wimey stuff (The twins) has a way of borking narrative integrity and character motivations.

I wonder what Bioshock: Infinite's original plot was, or more particularly, which parts were changed in response to Ken Levine having discussions with a team member who was going to leave the project because the game's original depiction of religion offended them. We know bits and pieces, but not enough, IMO.
 

Candescence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,131
The problem with the "how dare you commit violence in a game all about committing violence" thing is that it's been done. Spec Ops the Line was probably the first big game to actually try it, and even then as good as its execution was, its "the only winning move is not to play" mantra is jarring as hell since you literally have no in-game choice but commit violence. Far Cry 5 doesn't really work nearly as well.

Undertale is probably the only example of a game where this message works, because you're actually given a choice on how to interact with other characters you encounter, and those choices have meaningful consequences. To get one of the major endings, you literally have to go out of your way to kill everything until there are literally no random encounters left in an area to fight and push on to beat the hardest boss in the game, who knows you can't be defeated permanently and is just trying to frustrate you into giving up and resetting, because resetting your in-game progress is a legitimate choice in the context of the narrative as well. And when the game beats you over the head about how much of a scumbag you are, it's because it's entirely justified in doing so. I should also point out that the "Genocide Route" isn't fun, either, killing everything is a grind as you rapidly become so powerful that only two bosses become a legitimate challenge, whereas resolving encounters non-violently is essentially a puzzle game. It says a lot that the only 'evil' character in the game is the one who is actively trying to egg you on into killing people.

As for Far Cry 5's inability to say anything about its political environment... I think it betrays the apparent intent the game had leading up to its release, and frankly political commentary ages significantly easier than the likes of pop culture references. Actual commentary on those sorts of things was the studio's apparently intention, but the end result is watered down as hell, hence why it's an issue here where it isn't so much with the last two games.
 

David

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,002
Neo Yokio
Not every game is built solely around people having fun. Papers Please isn't fun, Her Story isn't fun, That Dragon, Cancer isn't fun. But they are still built on personal and complex human ideas, and engaging the audience into empathizing with either the characters or the scenario. And a game doesn't get to divorce itself of artistic examination unless itself is divorced of anything resembling humanity or concepts human beings can meaningfully understand.
I had fun with some of those games and understood some of their message but the hook to keep playing is usually the fun.

But is still not art, just a product.
 

Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
People who don't understand that having nothing to say in this setting is a tacit endorsement of the status quo are either lying or honestly dumb as hell.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,920
Is important to differentiate between YOUR definition of art Vs others definition of art.

Don’t treat it like your definition is an objective one or if anyone else see it that day.

Games aren’t art, just entertainment products and they don’t need to be considered art to make people have fun.
Do you consider movies art or just entertainment products?

What about stuff like these?


 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,685
Long Island
It's not Ubisofts job to make games that will tackle today's political climate.

A lot of people seem upset that they didn't go a certain direction.

My question is why should they? The game was about the cult, the in coming apocalypse and holy shit they were right all long. People want a game about commentary on conservatives but they kind of did do that as well, they just painted them as everyday people instead of racist bigots because in reality, that's what a lot of them are. They recognized evil in the cult and fought back.

That's what makes the game fun and fascinating, if you out listen to the cult soundtrack there are plenty of clues, in Faith's zone as well.

I just think people don't like spending X amount of hours and the good guys lose.
 

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
It's not Ubisofts job to make games that will tackle today's political climate.

A lot of people seem upset that they didn't go a certain direction.

My question is why should they? The game was about the cult, the in coming apocalypse and holy shit they were right all long. People want a game about commentary on conservatives but they kind of did do that as well, they just painted them as everyday people instead of racist bigots because in reality, that's what a lot of them are. They recognized evil in the cult and fought back.

That's what makes the game fun and fascinating, if you out listen to the cult soundtrack there are plenty of clues, in Faith's zone as well.

I just think people don't like spending X amount of hours and the good guys lose.
The game had serious... and I mean serious issues with it’s narrative. You can’t have a game that completely ignores religion with the main enemy faction being a religious cult.

You can’t have the enemy faction be completely irredeemable psychopathic freaks if you want to pull some “both sides are bad” shit.

The game is fun, but it has a horrible story that’s so afraid of offending anyone that it ends up as a complete mush... the villains are bad, the story is bad. Far Cry 5 is tough for me. The open world is amazing, and the moment to moment gameplay is pretty good too. But there was a lot of potential here that’s completely wasted.
 

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Of course God was only testing Abraham and stopped him, but Abraham was going to go through with it. Imagine if Abraham's God had been Joseph Seed's enigmatic "Voice". It's a challenging concept that is in its own something of a critique of the foundation of Christianity. God is love, but God does demand absolute obedience to the point of demanding that you go through the motions of killing your own child.

Joseph is a bad, bad man. All the Seeds are bad people and they readily admit that they and the others are bad people. Joseph's argument is that he didn't choose this role. It was thrust upon him. He says things like, "I do not claim to be a perfect man," and John says things like, "Even the Father knows deeply of sin."

I'm pretty sure Faith built the statue using her slave labour, but Joseph did allow it. Also, building the statue wasn't defying the gods. Hubris in Greek tragedy is arrogance towards, or defiance of, the will of the gods.

While this is all true, don't forget what you find in his bunker. It's full of prisoners and devotees. After people are inducted into the cult through the extremely gruesome, "cut your sins out" ceremonies, they are welcomed into the cult. Remember the cultist in the quarters praying for the strength to forgive new converts who might have committed terrible acts against the cult? The underpinning idea of Eden's Gate is that their terrible ceremonies will make sense to you in the end. John is interesting because you notice that he has an extremely cruel streak. Joseph calls him out on it when John almost drowns you. "You have to love them, John. Don't let your sin prevent that." Also, John is told that unless you "come to the atonement" "The Gates of Eden will be shut" to him.

Faith is interesting because there have been several women named Faith. The others all either died or were killed. It's somewhat ambiguous. But that's why Faith's region is so deeply rooted in the idea of free will. Faith doesn't really have free will. The Bliss... The Bliss presents some narrative problems. It's like a liquid version of the Pieces of Eden from Assassin's Creed, when you think about it. One thing about the bliss is that from notes in the game, one of the purposes of the bliss is to help people cope with the horrors to come. That's why they have a huge stockpile of it.

He's a bad man. Hardcore pragmatist preparing for "nature red in tooth and claw" survival in a post-apocalyptic world. He's the most cynical of the Seeds. But what makes him particularly interesting is his dying admission that, regardless of whether Joseph actually talks to God, somehow Joseph knew that you would come, and what you would do. That you've unwittingly done everything Joseph predicted you would do, including, presumably, killing Jacob, is a warning to the player.

The cult has (or had) bunkers full of people. In the end, your actions result in them all being super dead because you freed them even though you were warned over and over again what would happen if you didn't stop. I'm not sure how they objectively made things more difficult. How many non-Peggies actually believed that the end of the world was literally days away, and were prepared for it? Would they have gone into the bunkers willingly?

Joseph's prophecies aren't based on the Bliss. Remember that he has "the voice" that has told him things at various points in his life. My pet theory is that PERHAPS Joseph Seed is a Sage, from Assassin's Creed. Sages often experience visions or similar experiences starting in childhood. Jacob states that ultimately it doesn't matter whether Joseph talks to God because somehow Joseph is accurately predicting events. Also, there's quite a lot of stuff on the Bliss scattered throughout the game. It's based on a flower, but they had outside help from that chemist to create the drug. Regardless, the nature of the drugs that let you see the future in Far Cry 3 and Far Cry 4 were never explained, and I'd argue it wasn't really a problem there. It's a narrative shortcut. Drugs give you supernatural insight. Ubisoft Logic.

Every single seal being broken is telegraphed to the player. Joseph Seed says, "God will not let you take me." You attempt to take him, which of course doesn't work. When he crawls out of the helicopter wreckage, he declares that the first seal has been broken. The concept of the Seven Seals is not exactly difficult to understand. The meaning is explained at length by multiple characters. It's Joseph's interpretation of the Book of Revelations. Faith says that if you don't listen to Joseph, then Joseph will be right. If you don't walk away, the Seventh Seal is broken and pretty much immediately nukes start dropping. If you walk away, this doesn't happen as far as anyone can tell, but you likely kill your friends thanks to Jacob's conditioning.

Also remember that if you attempt to shoot Joseph Seed during the car drive at the end, the car immediately explodes and kills you. They probably should have found a more elegant way to express this, but the game gives you a chance to kill Joseph and then immediately slams your fingers in a door for having the temerity.

I think in the grand scheme of things, Ubisoft should perhaps have depicted that deep uncertainly in a more elegant way. It tries to have it both ways. Maybe Joseph has some deity on his side. Maybe he's just clever and it's all a sham. The game ping-pongs between these being possible, except it also throws heaps of evidence at you that your actions are controlled by prophecy and that your actions directly shape the fabric of reality in some way. An ideal scene would have been to have the player encounter Joseph, but when they try to shoot him, their gun jams. The car exploding when you shoot him isn't particularly nuanced. The ultimate point being, though, that you are not ALLOWED to kill Joseph Seed. It doesn't matter who or what is preventing that, or why. But you cannot kill Seed. And his religious convictions prevent him from killing you. Could he kill you? As in actually kill you and not impotently send Peggies to "express his displeasure"? Well, I think there's a can of worms insomuch that you can't kill the player of a videogame. They'll just keep trying until they succeed. (This was the plot of one of the Marathon games, IIRC. Where the antagonist realises that you can't actually be stopped.)

The question one is forced to ask though, is, "What happens to Eden's Gate if you walk away and the Collapse doesn't come?" Taking for granted that if you walk away, the collapse is averted.

I think that Far Cry 5 comes across very differently to the other Far Cry games because it leans so heavily upon the question, "What if <deity here> is actually on their side? Am I prepared for the consequences of that?" Yet it refuses to outright answer that question or even clarify the underpinning context, instead preferring to wink at the player from time to time. Like, imagine if The Jackal from Far Cry 2 had claimed to be on a mission from God. And the game dropped all sorts of hints that he has some kind of divine protection. That would make the game extremely difficult to parse. Adding the supernatural to stories like this causes a lot of side effects, particularly if you add it in a "Is he or isn't he...?" way.
I might edit my post later to address some of this stuff in more detail (it’s pretty late).

But I’ve read what you’ve said and none of it forgives or satisfactorily explains what the game tries to do. Joseph Seeds speech at the end about how you’re at fault makes no sense when you were only trying to arrest him. Ultimately, whether the developers meant for it to be the case or not, the cult is the villains, not the player. So any twist in the game’s logic by the game’s defenders makes no sense.

It’s like if I make a WWII game where you try to arrest and ultimately kill Hitler. But before he dies, nukes drop and he says “you should have just walked away”.

No...fuck that. If Ubisoft wanted to make the Seed family and the cult sympathetic, they could have. But they decide not to because they were making a AAA shooter.

Any sort of commentary on the state of AAA games or the shooter genre is thrown out the window when the developers fall into the same pitfalls
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
25,226
Conceptually and structurally I find these Heart of Darkness like narratives in games interesting. If we are interacting with increasingly realistic characters and thematically complex narratives in games, the question of player motivation has to be brought up eventually. Where Far Cry 4 and 5 fall flat for me, however, is that the way they engage the player on a mechanics level goes completely against what they try to tell you on a narrative level. Whether I enjoy them or not, the games are primarily designed to be fun and engaging. They feature a plethora of weapons, lots of mobility options, a constant feedback loop that rewards you at every turn etc. On a narrative level, however, the game tells you that what you've been doing was wrong all along. The game is basically judges you for engaging with the game in a way the developer intended to. I can deal with being judged by an inanimate object for killing pixels on a screen but it ultimately rings hollow to me. It's the narrative equivalent of having your cake or eating it too, the snake eating its own tail yadda yadda. If the only solution to the "moral" conundrum you've created in your game is not to play it, then... why the fuck are you selling it?
 

Tunahead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
965
If Far Cry 5 is some kind of critique of organized religion, it's a particularly toothless one given its narrative.

Once upon a time, God put a very big and important tree next to Adam and Eve and told them to ignore it, and then jumped out from behind the tree and yelled "Gotcha!" after his scheme resulted in the outcome he very obviously wanted. This is also how Far Cry 5 works. It's not clever to make a game where you do nothing but shoot people and then chastise the player for not immediately uninstalling the game after noticing it has guns in it. This is an incredibly self-indulgent message for any game, but particularly egregious when you're charging sixty dollars for it. I wasn't impressed when Spec Ops: The Line did it, and I'm not impressed now.

Conceptually and structurally I find these Heart of Darkness like narratives in games interesting. If we are interacting with increasingly realistic characters and thematically complex narratives in games, the question of player motivation has to be brought up eventually. Where Far Cry 4 and 5 fall flat for me, however, is that the way they engage the player on a mechanics level goes completely against what they try to tell you on a narrative level. Whether I enjoy them or not, the games are primarily designed to be fun and engaging. They feature a plethora of weapons, lots of mobility options, a constant feedback loop that rewards you at every turn etc. On a narrative level, however, the game tells you that what you've been doing was wrong all along. The game is basically judges you for engaging with the game in a way the developer intended to. I can deal with being judged by an inanimate object for killing pixels on a screen but it ultimately rings hollow to me. It's the narrative equivalent of having your cake or eating it too, the snake eating its own tail yadda yadda. If the only solution to the "moral" conundrum you've created in your game is not to play it, then... why the fuck are you selling it?
I completely disagree about Far Cry 4.

Far Cry 4 gives you unfair choices, but it always gives you reasons to make those choices, and never pretends the choices were fair. You can side with a terrorist or the head of a drug cartel, but they each have reasons for being the way they are, and they have to compromise just like you do, and you don't have the strength to defeat one of them without the help of the other. At the end you meet a man whose choices were as dumb as your own, and he begrudges you for making the same choices, but understands why you did it.

Far Cry 5 gives you no choices, and then you fight a very bad man, and then the game critiques you for the choices it pretends you had.
 
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TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,685
Long Island
The game had serious... and I mean serious issues with it’s narrative. You can’t have a game that completely ignores religion with the main enemy faction being a religious cult.

You can’t have the enemy faction be completely irredeemable psychopathic freaks if you want to pull some “both sides are bad” shit.

The game is fun, but it has a horrible story that’s so afraid of offending anyone that it ends up as a complete mush... the villains are bad, the story is bad. Far Cry 5 is tough for me. The open world is amazing, and the moment to moment gameplay is pretty good too. But there was a lot of potential here that’s completely wasted.
Because it wasn't really a religious cults, they weren't worshiping God, they were worshipping Joseph Seed, again if you listen to the soundtrack the whole cult revolves around Joseph and how he is going to deliver his flock from the oncoming apocalypse.

Let's face it, The people complaining about the game lean a certain way, and because the game doesn't match their head canon they made up from the trailers they are dissapointed. That's what it comes down to. People are on this crusade to teach the American right a lesson. Instead the game shown that surprise surprise no one likes a cult taking over their town no matter what their voting registration is, that shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

The only reason Joseph Seed was right was because because the bombs went off, it's not like he was not the true bad guy the whole time. Unless you missed the part were Faith was having people do suicide leaps off the top of a statue and Hrother Jacob was brain washing killers and Johm was flaying people all in the name of Jacob not God. Hell John became wacked out of his head because his parents were religious nuts basically when they beat him. If anything they pushed back against God, someone earlier in the thread explains this whole thing a shit ton better than me. You're welcome to hate the game and story of course, seems like a shit ton of general pop disagree though.
 

bad_carbs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
773
Okay, So there is this neat-looking chair in the furniture department I kind of like to try to sit on, right? However there seems to be something that looks like a whoopee cushion on it, but the chair salesman insists that it is part of the chair's design. "It makes it super comfortable to sit on," he says. He REALLY wants me to sit on it, which makes it obvious that it is indeed a whoopee cushion. When I refused to sit on it, he became noticeably flustered and was getting increasingly pushy and desperate for me to try the chair out.

"Please, I beg you," he pleaded. "I haven't had a single sale in months! My life depends on you sitting on that chair!" I ask that he remove the whoopee cushion thing first, and he reluctantly agrees to do so. I am not sure what his deal is with that thing, but the chair looks pretty comfy to me so I was like whatever.

As I lower my tush to the seat, he quickly slips that whoopee cushion back in. And so it made this weird farting sound, as all whoopee cushions do. The chair salesman points at me and starts laughing hysterically, as if he had made one of the best pranks ever pulled in the known universe. And there I was sitting on that comfy chair, feeling incredibly annoyed.

Anyway all I'm saying is that's how I felt after finishing Far Cry 5
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Because it wasn't really a religious cults, they weren't worshiping God, they were worshipping Joseph Seed, again if you listen to the soundtrack the whole cult revolves around Joseph and how he is going to deliver his flock from the oncoming apocalypse.
The cult is religious insomuch that Joseph claims to have been chosen by God for this task. And the cultists do pray to "God", not Joseph.

Let's face it, The people complaining about the game lean a certain way, and because the game doesn't match their head canon they made up from the trailers they are dissapointed. That's what it comes down to. People are on this crusade to teach the American right a lesson. Instead the game shown that surprise surprise no one likes a cult taking over their town no matter what their voting registration is, that shouldn't be that big of a surprise.
I think that one of the curious problems is how forced some of the interpretations were. Nothing about the trailers suggested anything about the "alt-right" or contemporary right wing militias. That people decided the game was about a subject matter it never claimed to be about was their own fault. It was telling that so many people were seemingly unaware, for instance, that Jonestown and the Branch Davidians were ethnically diverse groups. They'd created this vision of American cults in their head that was racist and hateful. But Eden's Gate, while pretty horrible, is not hateful in that sense.

What do Eden's Gate really believe? Well, just listen to their main theme song. It's pretty explicit what they're about.
In the West shall rise
The sinister creed
The rich will get what they want
The poor will lose what they need

The devil knows our fears
He told all his friends
They'll block the sun with their lies
As darkness descends

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again

Let the wars begin
We'll keep our pistols near
Our neighbors, frail and thin
As they disappear

Let the chaos come
Let our houses freeze
The lights will all go out
But we'll finally see

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again

When the sky has cleared
And the storm has passed
We'll walk arm in arm
Down our promised path

We'll watch the sun come up
From its bed of black
We'll enter Eden's Garden
And never look back

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again
The only reason Joseph Seed was right was because because the bombs went off, it's not like he was not the true bad guy the whole time. Unless you missed the part were Faith was having people do suicide leaps off the top of a statue and Hrother Jacob was brain washing killers and Johm was flaying people all in the name of Jacob not God. Hell John became wacked out of his head because his parents were religious nuts basically when they beat him. If anything they pushed back against God, someone earlier in the thread explains this whole thing a shit ton better than me. You're welcome to hate the game and story of course, seems like a shit ton of general pop disagree though.
It's a little more nuanced than that. The central question of Joseph being "right" does hinge upon the nukes falling. And to a large degree, Far Cry 5 can be framed as a game about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Even the Seeds themselves never really deny that they're full of the same sins that they cut out of others. If you peel back the insanity of Eden's Gate, you have a group that decided that people needed to be rescued whether they wanted to be rescued or not. Rescued by force. And then brutally tested to ensure they were fit or capable perhaps of survival in the (quite literal) world beyond. (Which is really the objectionable part, innit? The Terminator tricked John Connor into a nuclear bunker in Terminator 3. If it had tortured him and then drugged him and then tossed him in there, it would have been a rather different movie.) This is sort of thrown in the player's face when they rescue the Marshall. (However, because the game FORCES you to rescue him against his will, setting off a terrible chain reaction, the effect is lessened. Far Cry 5 kicks around the concept of free will being an illusion a little too much for its own good.)

One thing that does occur to me is that when Joseph's siblings are killed, he has a deep crisis of faith. But he breaks through that wall of despair and doubt, and concludes that he misunderstood God's plan. He concludes that God wanted you and the others to be his family. Like how Job's family was taken from him, but God gave him a new one. Some see this as him being a vindictive asshole -- you took my thing, I'll take yours. And this is where I think some misunderstand Joseph as a character. There's this idea perpetuated by people who think that Joseph triggered the nukes -- that Joseph threw a tantrum. But while he once or twice loses his temper, Joseph is a man who genuinely believes even in the face of despair. He is a true believer. Whether he's deluded or not about the voices in his head, he actually believes. And this is where Far Cry 5's ending has a lot to chew on. Joseph looks at you in the bunker, and on one hand he thinks you should die for -- in his eyes -- the evil you have committed. The death and destruction, and the murder of those he loved so dearly. But he also believes that God wants you to be his family. His religious convictions force him to forgive you.

A lot of people see the ending as super creepy rape dungeon stuff, but it's in fact far, far sadder and poignant than that. When you think about it, the nukes rained across the earth because people could not forgive. If we ever have a global nuclear meltdown, it'll be because people cannot bring themselves to refuse to retaliate. They won't be able to bear the human urge to take down as many people as they can before they're consumed. For all his incredible failings as a human being and all the suffering he has inflicted, Joseph Seed forgives the player. When he almost begs the player to walk away, he is willing to forgive. Where it begins to unravel, though, is the funky Bliss stuff. They leaned way too heavily upon The Bliss to make plot events happen, and I honestly think the ending would have been better with all the Bliss stuff removed. It clouds the game. Perhaps intentionally, but to its detriment.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,685
Long Island
The cult is religious insomuch that Joseph claims to have been chosen by God for this task. And the cultists do play to "God", not Joseph.


I think that one of the curious problems is how forced some of the interpretations were. Nothing about the trailers suggested anything about the "alt-right" or contemporary right wing militias. That people decided the game was about a subject matter it never claimed to be about was their own fault. It was telling that so many people were seemingly unaware, for instance, that Jonestown and the Branch Davidians were ethnically diverse groups. They'd created this vision of American cults in their head that was racist and hateful. But Eden's Gate, while pretty horrible, is not hateful in that sense.

What do Eden's Gate really believe? Well, just listen to their main theme song. It's pretty explicit what they're about.
In the West shall rise
The sinister creed
The rich will get what they want
The poor will lose what they need

The devil knows our fears
He told all his friends
They'll block the sun with their lies
As darkness descends

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again

Let the wars begin
We'll keep our pistols near
Our neighbors, frail and thin
As they disappear

Let the chaos come
Let our houses freeze
The lights will all go out
But we'll finally see

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again

When the sky has cleared
And the storm has passed
We'll walk arm in arm
Down our promised path

We'll watch the sun come up
From its bed of black
We'll enter Eden's Garden
And never look back

Oh Lord, the Great Collapse
Won't be our end
When the world falls into the flames
We will rise again
We will rise again

It's a little more nuanced than that. The central question of Joseph being "right" does hinge upon the nukes falling. And to a large degree, Far Cry 5 can be framed as a game about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Even the Seeds themselves never really deny that they're full of the same sins that they cut out of others. If you peel back the insanity of Eden's Gate, you have a group that decided that people needed to be rescued whether they wanted to be rescued or not. Rescued by force. And then brutally tested to ensure they were fit or capable perhaps of survival in the (quite literal) world beyond. (Which is really the objectionable part, innit? The Terminator tricked John Connor into a nuclear bunker in Terminator 3. If it had tortured him and then drugged him and then tossed him in there, it would have been a rather different movie.) This is sort of thrown in the player's face when they rescue the Marshall. (However, because the game FORCES you to rescue him against his will, setting off a terrible chain reaction, the effect is lessened. Far Cry 5 kicks around the concept of free will being an illusion a little too much for its own good.)

One thing that does occur to me is that when Joseph's siblings are killed, he has a deep crisis of faith. But he breaks through that wall of despair and doubt, and concludes that he misunderstood God's plan. He concludes that God wanted you and the others to be his family. Like how Job's family was taken from him, but God gave him a new one. Some see this as him being a vindictive asshole -- you took my thing, I'll take yours. And this is where I think some misunderstand Joseph as a character. There's this idea perpetuated by people who think that Joseph triggered the nukes -- that Joseph threw a tantrum. But while he once or twice loses his temper, Joseph is a man who genuinely believes even in the face of despair. He is a true believer. Whether he's deluded or not about the voices in his head, he actually believes. And this is where Far Cry 5's ending has a lot to chew on. Joseph looks at you in the bunker, and on one hand he thinks you should die for -- in his eyes -- the evil you have committed. The death and destruction, and the murder of those he loved so dearly. But he also believes that God wants you to be his family. His religious convictions force him to forgive you.

A lot of people see the ending as super creepy rape dungeon stuff, but it's in fact far, far sadder and poignant than that. When you think about it, the nukes rained across the earth because people could not forgive. If we ever have a global nuclear meltdown, it'll be because people cannot bring themselves to refuse to retaliate. They won't be able to bear the human urge to take down as many people as they can before they're consumed. For all his incredible failings as a human being and all the suffering he has inflicted, Joseph Seed forgives the player. When he almost begs the player to walk away, he is willing to forgive. Where it begins to unravel, though, is the funky Bliss stuff. They leaned way too heavily upon The Bliss to make plot events happen, and I honestly think the ending would have been better with all the Bliss stuff removed. It clouds the game. Perhaps intentionally, but to its detriment.
Oh yeah most dey, as someone who listened to the soundtrack several times overuse, I was amazed by how much is hinted at in those lyrics. The whole album is basically
"No one believes the bombs are going to drop, but we will be safe and when the fall out clears we will be the ones that survive" the album.

I personally enjoyed the Bliss because it involved that creepy supernatural factor in the game, something you can see was the reason why Joseph saw the coming of the end. I mean hell they were showing us Nukes in Faiths section during one of the Bliss trips.

I mean at the same time, when he begs you to walk away, he is still taking people down with you because you're already indoctrinated at that point by Jacob, now I don't know if Joseph knows that in the alternative ending. He can play a record one day and boom end up a dead man.
 

Soundwind

Banned for suspected use of alt account
Member
Apr 13, 2018
633
Why it's true that games are art and art is political and games can be political

I feel the bigger problem is that many gamers seek validation from games to share and reforce there ideological and political worldviews.

People really wanted a white nationalists killing simulator and once it was revealed that Far Cry 5 wasn't that.

there is a difference between games as art/political and wanting a game to reinforce a worldview

i mean take this for example



"must"?

no Rockstar doesn't have to conform to your worldview, same with Ubisoft
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
I didn't even touch on how Dr. Caroll's reading makes "wanting to stop murderous assholes is 'arrogant'" Which lines right up with Errant Single's point of its stance. Like this is the "hard men making hard decisions" BS Infinity War just got through tearing down through Thanos.
I think the game itself puts it better than I did.

"John was wrong. Your sin is not Wrath. You would rather see the world burn than swallow your Pride." Pride and arrogance aren't quite same thing. But the pride of the player dooms the world. One reason this is interesting is that Lucifer's sin was Pride. Joseph repeatedly compares the player to Lucifer, at one point calling you a "snake in the garden". Joseph repeatedly offers to let you walk away. The player is hate and violence and spite. The player would rather annihilate millions than lose an argument, basically. And that's why Seed is so upset with you. No player who has been paying attention to the story could miss it. Joseph looks at the player and says, "GOD IS WATCHING." and then they're presented with a choice.

Far Cry 5's problem is that it uses the Bliss way too much. For instance, when the player breaks the sixth seal, there is a sudden earthquake and a storm, just like the prophecy, but is it real? You got drenched in bliss, so maybe not.

I think this breakdown of the ending and overall plot is pretty solid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/farcry/comments/8b3enf/spoilers_that_ending_explained/

Joseph's timing is ridiculous, if it were just a coincidence and the nukes falling were disconnected from your actions. And I really think the nuking goes way beyond being a hallucination. Particularly since every other person in the group sees the exact same thing. (And that cop's in the back of the car screaming, "HE WAS RIGHT! HE WAS RIGHT! WE'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL FOR WHAT WE'VE DONE!" just in the player had any doubts about how much this is totally their fault.

When the player and his crew attempt to arrest Joseph again despite this never working at any point in the game prior, Joseph immediately begins to recite scripture, and right on cue, it all comes crashing down.

"When the Lamb opened the Seventh Seal...there was silence in heaven...and the seven angels before god were given seven trumpets......and there were noises..."

[Air Raid Siren Wails]

"...thundering, lightning... And I heard a great voice from the temple say to the angels, 'Go your ways and pour from the vials the wrath of God upon the Earth.'"

[First nuke hits]

During the final fight, Joseph screams at you, "I gave you every chance, and you threw it all away! You've brought the world crashing down around us! Don't you SEE THAT!? Everything you've done. Everything you've earned. Everything you've fought for is for nothing! You don't know what you're doing. Only I can save you! You have to believe me!"

It's also made explicitly clear at the end that Joseph knew nothing about the nukes coming. He has been waiting and waiting and waiting patiently for the prophecy to be fulfilled. He was merely confident that SOMETHING would happen as the pieces fell into place.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
7,498
Honestly i just think the game was never really related to Trump or Radical Christians too much & people are giving it this "in depth analysis" basically trying to say Ubisoft is cowardly.

If you look at Watch Dogs 2 though, Ubisoft is not afraid to take a shot at Trump at all, also you got Beyond good & evil 2 & it's focus on diversity, so ill give Ubisoft the benefit of the doubt this time.
 

ham bone

Alt account
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
732
I just watched 5 minutes of someone talk about how the fire in game 2 is better than the fire in game 5. And he says it's in the value of narrative and higher ideals of choice and morality. I'm halfway through a book that explains the meaning of T.S. Elliot's The Wasteland, this is the second book of explaining it that I've read, and neither authors are as self absorbed or pretentious as this.
 

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
I just watched 5 minutes of someone talk about how the fire in game 2 is better than the fire in game 5. And he says it's in the value of narrative and higher ideals of choice and morality. I'm halfway through a book that explains the meaning of T.S. Elliot's The Wasteland, this is the second book of explaining it that I've read, and neither authors are as self absorbed or pretentious as this.
It fits the theme of Far Cry 5, which is a very pretentious and self absorbed game despite having nothing of value to say.

Edit: actually no... because at least this video does a good job at pointing out what’s wrong with FC5
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
It’s like if I make a WWII game where you try to arrest and ultimately kill Hitler. But before he dies, nukes drop and he says “you should have just walked away”.
Comparing Hitler and Joseph Seed doesn't really work because Joseph Seed is trying to save people. The point of Eden's Gate is for a super inclusive yet paradoxically barbaric cult to survive the coming collapse. "Hitler was actually trying to save the Jewish people but went about it the wrong way!" would be one hell of a twist, wouldn't you say? If Joseph Seed were a Hitler-like character, FC5 would be a very different game.
No...fuck that. If Ubisoft wanted to make the Seed family and the cult sympathetic, they could have. But they decide not to because they were making a AAA shooter.
The Seed family and the cult as a whole are extensively humanized and in the Herald's case literally eulogized. They have you at their mercy over and over again, but refuse to kill you. Even after you murder everyone he loves, Joseph Seed is still willing to forgive you and let you leave Hope County in peace. Far Cry 5 is a tragedy. But one that doesn't necessarily gel with an open world format.
You can’t have a game that completely ignores religion with the main enemy faction being a religious cult.
The game doesn't ignore religion in the slightest. The main plot is a religious allegory. The religious (and not so religious) beliefs of the cult are extensively explained. I mean, you literally get kidnapped a few times so they can sit you down and explain why they believe the things they believe.There's an entire soundtrack full of songs that explain the Eden's Gate religion. There's also the small sermon you hear on the radio from time to time, which explains the philosophical underpinnings of the cult. (The religious ones are explained throughout the game. I'm really not sure how much more they needed to say.)

Our family does not live up in the digital cloud. Our family does not send status updates. Our family does not care what you were wearing. We only care that you are clothed. And our family does not care where or what you eat. We only care that you are fed. And our family knows the truth, and the truth is that you are all special. You are all engaging. That you are all fantastic and capable and wonderful. Something is coming. You can feel it can't you? The world is reaching its tipping point and we are hooked. And we are blind to our obsessions and our obsession is consumption. Relentless consumption. You see we need to have the next best phone. And then to go with that phone we need a new watch or we need the best glasses. And then we need a new bag to put all of our stuff in. And then of course we need... well we need streaming music, and we need streaming TV, and streaming movies, and streaming news, and streaming opinion, and streaming truth, and streaming lies and lies and lies, screaming in our heads! And we consume without purpose, and we consume without reason, and we consume without regard for one another.

We consume it all. And that is our sin: Greed. And we drift down the corridors of consumerism. We've got our phones and our pads pressed up against our faces. Not stopping, never taking notes to the pain and the suffering of those around us. Because we need to race to upload photos of our pets, or our meals, or our bodies. "Ooh, look at me. See what I have done? See what I am in this moment? I am special. I am smart. I am funny. I am pretty." That is the travesty because we are all special! We are all smart! But yet we seem to need the desperate approval from digital friends that we hardly even know when your family and your loved ones are right here, sitting beside you! And all you have to do is believe it. You see, we live in a world without confidence. All of us desperately searching for some approval from a like button and why? Where is our confidence? And where is our faith? I have confidence. And I have faith. Let me be the well that you would drink from to fill yourself up. I am your father. And you are my children. And together we will march into Eden's Gate.
 

KamenRiderEra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
Is important to differentiate between YOUR definition of art Vs others definition of art.

Don’t treat it like your definition is an objective one or if anyone else see it that day.

.
Your own answer applies to your instance.... FOR YOU, games, films, manga, anime are not Art.... Also, you denied the status of art for movies ..... It just comes as extremely ignorant.... (Or troll attempt, i guess...)
 

NathanS

Member
Dec 5, 2017
317
I think the game itself puts it better than I did.

"John was wrong. Your sin is not Wrath. You would rather see the world burn than swallow your Pride." Pride and arrogance aren't quite same thing. But the pride of the player dooms the world. One reason this is interesting is that Lucifer's sin was Pride. Joseph repeatedly compares the player to Lucifer, at one point calling you a "snake in the garden". Joseph repeatedly offers to let you walk away. The player is hate and violence and spite. The player would rather annihilate millions than lose an argument, basically. And that's why Seed is so upset with you. No player who has been paying attention to the story could miss it. Joseph looks at the player and says, "GOD IS WATCHING." and then they're presented with a choice.

Far Cry 5's problem is that it uses the Bliss way too much. For instance, when the player breaks the sixth seal, there is a sudden earthquake and a storm, just like the prophecy, but is it real? You got drenched in bliss, so maybe not.

I think this breakdown of the ending and overall plot is pretty solid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/farcry/comments/8b3enf/spoilers_that_ending_explained/

Joseph's timing is ridiculous, if it were just a coincidence and the nukes falling were disconnected from your actions. And I really think the nuking goes way beyond being a hallucination. Particularly since every other person in the group sees the exact same thing. (And that cop's in the back of the car screaming, "HE WAS RIGHT! HE WAS RIGHT! WE'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL FOR WHAT WE'VE DONE!" just in the player had any doubts about how much this is totally their fault.

When the player and his crew attempt to arrest Joseph again despite this never working at any point in the game prior, Joseph immediately begins to recite scripture, and right on cue, it all comes crashing down.

"When the Lamb opened the Seventh Seal...there was silence in heaven...and the seven angels before god were given seven trumpets......and there were noises..."

[Air Raid Siren Wails]

"...thundering, lightning... And I heard a great voice from the temple say to the angels, 'Go your ways and pour from the vials the wrath of God upon the Earth.'"

[First nuke hits]

During the final fight, Joseph screams at you, "I gave you every chance, and you threw it all away! You've brought the world crashing down around us! Don't you SEE THAT!? Everything you've done. Everything you've earned. Everything you've fought for is for nothing! You don't know what you're doing. Only I can save you! You have to believe me!"

It's also made explicitly clear at the end that Joseph knew nothing about the nukes coming. He has been waiting and waiting and waiting patiently for the prophecy to be fulfilled. He was merely confident that SOMETHING would happen as the pieces fell into place.
Again you're not actually disagree with anything I said, the moral of the story was "don't stop murdering rapist cults because that makes you the bad guy." It pulls a "because G-d said so" to try and make that seem... deep. but it isn't. It still a story the writers artificially set up the situation where stopping murdering rapist is the wrong thing to do. You're making the Thermian Argument:


At best i guess it ask "what if G-d was an asshole and wanted rapist to prosper?" Will the answer that is not a G-d worth worshiping. Might does not make right. None of this is new or remotely deep, its childish.
 

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Comparing Hitler and Joseph Seed doesn't really work because Joseph Seed is trying to save people. The point of Eden's Gate is for a super inclusive yet paradoxically barbaric cult to survive the coming collapse. "Hitler was actually trying to save the Jewish people but went about it the wrong way!" would be one hell of a twist, wouldn't you say? If Joseph Seed were a Hitler-like character, FC5 would be a very different game.

The Seed family and the cult as a whole are extensively humanized and in the Herald's case literally eulogized. They have you at their mercy over and over again, but refuse to kill you. Even after you murder everyone he loves, Joseph Seed is still willing to forgive you and let you leave Hope County in peace. Far Cry 5 is a tragedy. But one that doesn't necessarily gel with an open world format.

The game doesn't ignore religion in the slightest. The main plot is a religious allegory. The religious (and not so religious) beliefs of the cult are extensively explained. I mean, you literally get kidnapped a few times so they can sit you down and explain why they believe the things they believe.There's an entire soundtrack full of songs that explain the Eden's Gate religion. There's also the small sermon you hear on the radio from time to time, which explains the philosophical underpinnings of the cult. (The religious ones are explained throughout the game. I'm really not sure how much more they needed to say.)

Our family does not live up in the digital cloud. Our family does not send status updates. Our family does not care what you were wearing. We only care that you are clothed. And our family does not care where or what you eat. We only care that you are fed. And our family knows the truth, and the truth is that you are all special. You are all engaging. That you are all fantastic and capable and wonderful. Something is coming. You can feel it can't you? The world is reaching its tipping point and we are hooked. And we are blind to our obsessions and our obsession is consumption. Relentless consumption. You see we need to have the next best phone. And then to go with that phone we need a new watch or we need the best glasses. And then we need a new bag to put all of our stuff in. And then of course we need... well we need streaming music, and we need streaming TV, and streaming movies, and streaming news, and streaming opinion, and streaming truth, and streaming lies and lies and lies, screaming in our heads! And we consume without purpose, and we consume without reason, and we consume without regard for one another.

We consume it all. And that is our sin: Greed. And we drift down the corridors of consumerism. We've got our phones and our pads pressed up against our faces. Not stopping, never taking notes to the pain and the suffering of those around us. Because we need to race to upload photos of our pets, or our meals, or our bodies. "Ooh, look at me. See what I have done? See what I am in this moment? I am special. I am smart. I am funny. I am pretty." That is the travesty because we are all special! We are all smart! But yet we seem to need the desperate approval from digital friends that we hardly even know when your family and your loved ones are right here, sitting beside you! And all you have to do is believe it. You see, we live in a world without confidence. All of us desperately searching for some approval from a like button and why? Where is our confidence? And where is our faith? I have confidence. And I have faith. Let me be the well that you would drink from to fill yourself up. I am your father. And you are my children. And together we will march into Eden's Gate.
1.Joseph Seed isn’t saving anyone. The people in Hope county would’ve been better able to survive a nuclear apocalypse if he hadn’t been there. If the Hitler comparison isn’t good enough we can use any other terrorist group that has ever existed. The Seed cult is evil, while they think they are helping (like every other terroristic group to ever exist) they aren’t. Yet the game tells you that you’re wrong for trying to stop them. It’s important to note that all you’re trying to do is arrest the cult leader.

2. The Seed clan isn’t humanized. The game takes every opportunity to show just how monstrous they are. It’s not good enough that the writers simply have Joseph lose his wife and unborn daughter to a car crash (thus sympathizing him), he has to violently kill his infant daughter by suffocating her to death after losing his wife. The writers make the villains in Far Cry 5 as stereotypically evil as they can. Occasionally a couple of the characters hint at past trauma (mainly Faith and John) but none of that is explored and the characters are killed off before any development can occur. The Seeds don’t spare you, they don’t let you go. They try to kill you at every opportunity. And when their cult members can’t get the job done they try to personally kill you in the 3 boss fights.

Joseph Seed letting you go at the end isn’t mercy. Not only does he keep all of your friends (some of who were just trying to defend themselves) as drugged up slaves, but he knows you’re a ticking time bomb and will kill the friends who aren’t drugged up sooner or later.

3. The game ignores religion, only using it to provide a “gotcha” moment at the end. The Bible is never quoted, Joseph never explains where his religious beliefs are based, the game never seriously explored any real world religious ideology going as far as to specifically point out that Edens Gate is far removed from the “good religion” like the preacher at Falls End. It’s handled horribly.

The post and video above mine sum it up well. None of these characters are real, so any mishandling of the games narrative is on the writers, not the characters in the game. They could have easily made Edens Gate a pacifist cult slowly driven to violence by the players barbarity throughout the game. The could have made Joseph into a flawed but well intentioned villain who lost control of the cult and is forced to watch it become the thing he hates. They could have actually developed the 3 side-villains. They could have explored Christianity in a thought provoking way. But they did none of these things.

This is all really disappointing too. The actors all gave great performances, the setting, art direction, and technical visuals were all top notch, and the game has some incredible music. But it’s ultimately a dumb (but fun) open world shooter with a story that feels tacked on and under developed.
 
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Jerykk

Banned
Dec 26, 2017
1,184
1.Joseph Seed isn’t saving anyone. The people in Hope county would’ve been better able to survive a nuclear apocalypse if he hadn’t been there. If the Hitler comparison isn’t good enough we can use any other terrorist group that has ever existed. The Seed cult is evil, while they think they are helping (like every other terroristic group to ever exist) they aren’t. Yet the game tells you that you’re wrong for trying to stop them. It’s important to note that all you’re trying to do is arrest the cult leader.

2. The Seed clan isn’t humanized. The game takes every opportunity to show just how monstrous they are. It’s not good enough that the writers simply have Joseph lose his wife and unborn daughter to a car crash (thus sympathizing him), he has to violently kill his infant daughter by suffocating her to death after losing his wife. The writers make the villains in Far Cry 5 as stereotypically evil as they can. Occasionally a couple of the characters hint at past trauma (mainly Faith and John) but none of that is explored and the characters are killed off before any development can occur. The Seeds don’t spare you, they don’t let you go. They try to kill you at every opportunity. And when their cult members can’t get the job done they try to personally kill you in the 3 boss fights.

Joseph Seed letting you go at the end isn’t mercy. Not only does he keep all of your friends (some of who were just trying to defend themselves) as drugged up slaves, but he knows you’re a ticking time bomb and will kill the friends who aren’t drugged up sooner or later.

3. The game ignores religion, only using it to provide a “gotcha” moment at the end. The Bible is never quoted, Joseph never explains where his religious beliefs are based, the game never seriously explored any real world religious ideology going as far as to specifically point out that Edens Gate is far removed from the “good religion” like the preacher at Falls End. It’s handled horribly.

The post and video above mine sum it up well. None of these characters are real, so any mishandling of the games narrative is on the writers, not the characters in the game. They could have easily made Edens Gate a pacifist cult slowly driven to violence by the players barbarity throughout the game. The could have made Joseph into a flawed but well intentioned villain who lost control of the cult and is forced to watch it become the thing he hates. They could have actually developed the 3 side-villains. They could have explored Christianity in a thought provoking way. But they did none of these things.

This is all really disappointing too. The actors all gave great performances, the setting, art direction, and technical visuals were all top notch, and the game has some incredible music. But it’s ultimately a dumb (but fun) open world shooter with a story that feels tacked on and under developed.
There are definitely a lot of logic holes in the narrative. The Seeds have many opportunities to kill you yet they let you go every time. They only fight you during the boss fights because you've taken the fight to them and left them no choice. However, their minions still shoot you on sight throughout the game. If the Seeds wanted to spare you, they would have ordered their minions to avoid killing you. If they wanted to kill you, then they would have just killed you the first time they captured you. The ending doesn't really make any sense either. How exactly did Joseph brainwash all of the NPCs you meet? Did it happen before you even arrived? If that was the case, then they would have already known about the Whitetail hideout and wiped them out immediately. And then there's the nuke(s). Why would any military power waste multiple nukes on Montana? It has no strategic value whatsoever and would never be target in any war.

As for religion, it makes sense to specifically avoid references to Christianity. It's the biggest religion on the planet and potentially offending the majority of your audience doesn't make business sense. That's why games create religions/cults that are clearly inspired by but never actually Christianity. I'm not sure why anyone believed that a mainstream AAA shooter would break that trend. If you want specifically political games, you'll need to stick to the indies.
 

Plywood

Does not approve of this tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Far Cry 5 is thematically a successor to Far Cry 4, but it leans far harder into fourth wall breaking. Where Far Cry 4 broke the fourth wall once or twice, Far Cry 5 breaks it at every opportunity.

Far Cry 4 was a game that critiqued the vapidness of player motivation. The player's official motivation is that they want to scatter their mother's ashes. Their real motivation is that they want to tear shit up. By the time they ascended Pagan's mountain, how many players even remembered why they were there? Pagan's monologue as he walks you out to the shrine (assuming the player didn't make the humongous mistake of shooting him) both mocks the player for their ignorance and gullibility (What's that? You didn't know that your father murdered your baby sister?), and then, twinkle-eyed, smugly reminds them how much fun their gyro-copter mass murder escapades were. (Pagan admitting that he simply used the murder of his daughter as an excuse to do whatever he wanted to do, just as you used your flimsy character motivations to do whatever you wanted to do.)

Far Cry 5 is a game that recycles the narrative fabric of Bioshock: Infinite and largely strips it of its American-ism. Far Cry 5 is not really an American story. It takes place in America, but the actual story being told is essentially mythical. The game could have taken place anywhere in the world, and the underlying themes would have been identical. Far Cry doesn't have much to say about America because it's not about America. It's about free will and the player as, essentially, a supernatural force that isn't a ROLE. They're a free agent. They can choose. The other characters don't have that freedom. Faith is a literal ROLE. She's not even a real person. She's a random woman living a life assigned to her. And ultimately the same is true of every other character. But "Rook" is not a real police officer. They're a player wearing the skin of one. And Joseph recognises you, on a certain level, for what you actually are. Joseph foresaw that you would come. Not some vague "they" will come. He explictly foresaw that YOU would come. The manifestation of DEATH. He foresaw that you would kill his family. (He knew you wouldn't be able to kill him, though. After all, if God won't let you take him, why would God let you kill him?) However, Joseph hoped, most likely in vain, that the player would... just walk away.

Far Cry 5 is about free will, futility of human endeavor, and also how people will jump though hoops to avoid believing something that conflicts with their worldview. The player is not actually "Rook". Rook is a cypher. At key moments in the story, characters look "Rook" in the eye, and tell them things -- those things are not directed at Rook. They are directed at the player.

Far Cry 5 reinvents the opening sequence of Bioshock: Infinite, where "He doesn't row", into an excellent boat-based monologue about the illusion of free will. There are multiple aspects of Far Cry 5 that are reused from Infinite, but in a far more more effective way, I think.

I suspect, though, that Far Cry 5 is an example of how open world games struggle to convey their message and themes if the audience isn't paying attention. You're looking at 3-4 hours of plot over 40 hours of gameplay. The audience can lose track. But Far Cry 5 tries to hammer its point home over and over again. Even Jacob, the cynic who doesn't really believe in the divine, tries to warn the player.

Jacob: "My brother saw all this coming. I don’t know if he talks to God. That doesn’t matter. He was right. Humanity is once again in crisis. It doesn’t matter what we build or achieve…we will always find a way to break it down. Babylon, Rome, empires rise, empires fall. America. We’re no different. We think we’re indestructible. World War II. War on ‘Terror’, we survived it, but it only brought us closer to the edge. And this is where we are. Right here on schedule, just waiting for someone to push us, and oh boy, have you pushed us. You did everything you said you would do. And you didn’t even know it. You had no fucking clue."

John: What if Joseph is right? Did you ever stop to think about that? Everyone thinks he's crazy. But he's not. You want this key because you think you're saving people, but they are already safe. We had a plan. You don't understand. You don't believe. You don't care! May God have mercy on your soul.

Faith: You still don't understand. You don't know what it is you're doing do you? Joseph believes he's our savior. But you'll be the one who decides what happens. You were the start. You'll be the end. It was always going to happen this way. You'll walk the path. You'll rescue your Sheriff. You'll be the hero. And then... you'll choose. And if you don't listen to him, he'll be right."

Faith literally turns to the player, and asks slyly, "Do you know what hubris is?" When your average player plays Far Cry 5, they are defying Joseph's God from the moment they put the cuffs on him. They break seal after seal. They are arrogant. They are warned again and again to stop before it's too late. If players refuse to stop, the blood of millions is on their hands. This is Far Cry 5's message. You're meddling in affairs you don't understand. You think you're the hero, but you're not. As evil as the cult are, they would have saved a fair number of people. Thanks to you, every person they might have saved is now dead. This is regardless of whether the player is actually causing the end of the world in a butterfly effect-slash-wrath of the gods cascade. It could be a Terminator 3-style end of the world where you can only stall it for so long. It happens eventually. You can only prepare for it.

Another thing to remember about Far Cry 5 is that using drugs to see into into the future is canon. It happened in Far Cry 3, and it happened in Far Cry 4. Faith explicitly tells you what will happen if you continue down the path you have chosen. You will be given a choice, and if you take the wrong choice, Joseph will be right.

An interpretation of Far Cry 5 that intentionally ignores the multiple times you took drugs and gained access to supernatural knowledge/insight is a flawed one. A lot of people have tried to dissect Far Cry 5 purely on the grounds of America and American politics, and I think this is a mistake Errant Signal falls into. Far Cry 5's core story taken in a literal way about the player being arrogant towards "the gods" and incurring Nemesis. They break the seven seals and that's that. Even if they stop before the 7th seal, and walk away, a huge amount of damage has already been done.

The interesting is that Far Cry 5's ending is actually not dissimilar to the original planned ending of Red State. Where it turns out the cult were in fact right. It just doesn't directly show anything supernatural.

Smith has stated that the original ending continued with the Rapture happening and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse descending on the scene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_State_(2011_film)#Original_ending
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,223
Gamers: “Games are art”
*Artistic critique of games*
Gamers: Why you gotta be so political man? It’s just entertainment!
 

JDSpades

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
There are definitely a lot of logic holes in the narrative. The Seeds have many opportunities to kill you yet they let you go every time. They only fight you during the boss fights because you've taken the fight to them and left them no choice. However, their minions still shoot you on sight throughout the game. If the Seeds wanted to spare you, they would have ordered their minions to avoid killing you. If they wanted to kill you, then they would have just killed you the first time they captured you. The ending doesn't really make any sense either. How exactly did Joseph brainwash all of the NPCs you meet? Did it happen before you even arrived? If that was the case, then they would have already known about the Whitetail hideout and wiped them out immediately. And then there's the nuke(s). Why would any military power waste multiple nukes on Montana? It has no strategic value whatsoever and would never be target in any war.

As for religion, it makes sense to specifically avoid references to Christianity. It's the biggest religion on the planet and potentially offending the majority of your audience doesn't make business sense. That's why games create religions/cults that are clearly inspired by but never actually Christianity. I'm not sure why anyone believed that a mainstream AAA shooter would break that trend. If you want specifically political games, you'll need to stick to the indies.
Whenever the cult isn’t trying to kill you, they’re trying to enslave or torture you. This includes all of the Seed siblings

The game wants to reference Christianity without having to deal with any of the baggage that comes with it. That’s why the characters are obsessed with “Amazing Grace” and the games cover is a recreation of the last supper. Yet, Edens Gate isn’t “real” a Christian cult. Because that means the writers would actually have to say stuff about the world outside of the game. So instead, it’s a completely made up religion.
 
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Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I had fun with some of those games and understood some of their message but the hook to keep playing is usually the fun.

But is still not art, just a product.
Nonsensical and ignorant

That’s a fucked up thing to say. The game was always about a cult.
It was, but several journalists have confirmed the package and videos they were shown behind closed doors were radically different and more obviously political than the final product. A lot of that stuff is still under NDA, too, so Ubisoft knew it would be a firestorm.

Why it's true that games are art and art is political and games can be political

I feel the bigger problem is that many gamers seek validation from games to share and reforce there ideological and political worldviews.

People really wanted a white nationalists killing simulator and once it was revealed that Far Cry 5 wasn't that.

there is a difference between games as art/political and wanting a game to reinforce a worldview

i mean take this for example



"must"?

no Rockstar doesn't have to conform to your worldview, same with Ubisoft
White nationalist is just a fancy word for a Nazi. Wanting a Nazi killing simulator being too political nowadays is pretty horrifying
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
1.Joseph Seed isn’t saving anyone. The people in Hope county would’ve been better able to survive a nuclear apocalypse if he hadn’t been there.
I don't agree. There were some preppers, but nobody else was prepared for the complete global collapse of human civilization. Nobody else was prepared to use drugs to prevent the survivors from tearing each other apart in the horror show of a world to come. That's the point of the bliss.
If the Hitler comparison isn’t good enough we can use any other terrorist group that has ever existed. The Seed cult is evil, while they think they are helping (like every other terroristic group to ever exist) they aren’t. Yet the game tells you that you’re wrong for trying to stop them. It’s important to note that all you’re trying to do is arrest the cult leader.
Whether it's right or wrong is open to interpretation. Not just because "right" and "wrong" are moot if Joseph's God exists. If the player is breaking the seals, and there is extremely strong evidence this is true particularly towards the end -- then this makes the player The Lamb, albeit an extremely loose interpretation. The player is doing the will of God or the gods or whatever. Faith talks about the player's hubris. But the argument could be applied to Joseph. The player is the only one who can bring about the collapse, and they're also punishing Joseph for his sins by taking away his family. Some believe that Joseph is meant to be the anti-Christ or false prophet, and before you say, "There's no way that was intentional!", I would like to point out that Joseph originated in Rome, Georgia, so named because it is the city of seven hills. It is traditionally believed that the anti-Christ comes from Rome, because Rome has seven hills. But the Rome that Joseph Seed came from also has seven hills. The interpretation of Joseph Seed as a false prophet is a completely valid one, and probably one Ubisoft planned for. None of this stuff was accidental. Some have also pointed out the player could be the first horseman. They came with a white horse. and they even use a bow.
2. The Seed clan isn’t humanized. The game takes every opportunity to show just how monstrous they are.
This is completely untrue. We are shown that the Seeds are human beings torn between their awful tendencies and their desire to do the right thing as they understand it. We see this with John in particular.
It’s not good enough that the writers simply have Joseph lose his wife and unborn daughter to a car crash (thus sympathizing him), he has to violently kill his infant daughter by suffocating her to death after losing his wife.
He claims that God told him to do it. This can be directly compared to the sacrifice of Isaac, just without the last moment, "I was just testing to see whether you'd actually obey me." One interesting aspect, though, is that the story of his daughter isn't mentioned in the Book of Joseph. He only mentions hearing the voice twice, not a third time. Either it was an oversight, or he's lying.
The Seeds don’t spare you, they don’t let you go. They try to kill you at every opportunity. And when their cult members can’t get the job done they try to personally kill you in the 3 boss fights.
This is completely untrue. Look at John. He knows that if he doesn't succeed in converting you that "the gates of Eden will be shut to you, John." They all go to extreme lengths to avoid killing you. The random cultists are another matter, though.
Joseph Seed letting you go at the end isn’t mercy. Not only does he keep all of your friends (some of who were just trying to defend themselves) as drugged up slaves, but he knows you’re a ticking time bomb and will kill the friends who aren’t drugged up sooner or later.
My theory is that the player probably only kills Earl, and the player killing Earl is punishment. Remember the conversation in the car. Earl is going to fetch the National Guard and "bring the hammer down" on the cult. Pratt protests, "Didn't you hear what he said!" As for the other points, Joseph is willing to let you and every other police officer leave. He was willing to let you leave at the start of the game. The point you seem to be missing is that Joseph, no matter how much it brings him grief, is willing to forgive the player. Midway through the game, he says that "Despite you have done, you are not beyond salvation." That's what the ending hinges upon. If the player accepts Joseph's forgiveness, then thematically this extends to the world at large. If Joseph can forgive you, and you can forgive Joseph, then Russia and America and all those other countries can forgive each other and the nuclear meltdown halts. Civilization is spared, although it probably won't last forever.
3. The game ignores religion, only using it to provide a “gotcha” moment at the end. The Bible is never quoted
Eden's Gate doesn't follow the Bible. Joseph quotes/slightly misquotes scripture at points. He quotes extensively towards the end. There is scripture written on the walls of their chapel. But they have their own book. (And it's actually a real book that Ubisoft released.) They're like Mormons, in a way.
The post and video above mine sum it up well. None of these characters are real, so any mishandling of the games narrative is on the writers, not the characters in the game. They could have easily made Edens Gate a pacifist cult slowly driven to violence by the players barbarity throughout the game. The could have made Joseph into a flawed but well intentioned villain who lost control of the cult and is forced to watch it become the thing he hates. They could have actually developed the 3 side-villains. They could have explored Christianity in a thought provoking way. But they did none of these things.
Why would they do that? A huge reason why Far Cry 5 is so effective as a story because Eden's Gate is so shocking, so barbaric, and so repulsive. Yet we come to the end of the road, and to our unpleasant surprise we discover that the cosmic deck has been stacked against us. That we are the harbinger of the collapse.

Maybe they should have simply said, "Screw ambiguity." Instead of having seven metaphorical angels stand before the Lamb (and whatever Joseph represents.)

They should have had the sky opening and actual angels descending. Remember the original planned ending for Red State, where the four horsemen descended and it turned out the cult were right. IMO, Far Cry 5 was aiming for the same, "HE WAS RIGHT! OH, SHIT!" moment without being as explicit.

The anger towards Far Cry 5's ending is a mixture of the power fantasy being interrupted and people being disturbed by the events that unfold. The ending of Far Cry 5 offends some people deeply because they feel emotionally, and perhaps even spiritually attacked by its implications. (But like I said earlier, I don't think it's as clean cut as "God didn't want to you to stop Joseph". Breaking the seven seals is your purpose. One has to ask how Joseph is so blind that he doesn't realise that.) That's why people are so desperate to cling to super, super flimsy explanations such as "Joseph had nukes from.... somewhere". A lot of people have difficult grappling with a narrative that seemingly punishes the player for doing what they perceive to be good and righteous. When the car crash kills everyone except you and Joseph, further cementing that Joseph can't truly physically be harmed, that's a rude shock if the player insisted on dismissing Joseph and his cult as a bunch of nutbags with nothing behind them.
 

Jerykk

Banned
Dec 26, 2017
1,184
Whenever the cult isn’t trying to kill you, they’re trying to enslave or torture you. This includes all of the Seed siblings

The game wants to reference Christianity without having to deal with any of the baggage that comes with it. That’s why the characters are obsessed with “Amazing Grace” and the games cover is a recreation of the last supper. Yet, Edens Gate isn’t “real” a Christian cult. Because that means the writers would actually have to say stuff about the world outside of the game. So instead, it’s a completely made up religion.
I'd argue that Jacob and Faith aren't trying to enslave or torture you. Jacob is basically using you to find the Whitetail base and take out the leader. Faith is trying to non-violently persuade you to join Eden's Gate (with the help of hallucinogens, granted). Both Seeds could have just kept you prisoner or killed you but they release you on every occasion. I'm not arguing that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts but your previous statement (that they were all trying to kill you) was false.

And again, of course Ubisoft wasn't going to actually call out Christianity specifically. Far Cry 5 is a mainstream, AAA shooter. When was the last time any mainstream AAA game specifically called out Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter)? The best you're going to get are fictional religions that are clearly inspired by Christianity. Expecting anything else is naive. It's like expecting a Marvel movie to critique Islam or abortion politics.

Then maybe they shouldn't have made a game that on the surface looked like it was going to tackle and explore today's political climate only to back down when it came down to actually put up or shut up.
Did they actually do any of that? As soon as I saw the fictional Eden's Gate symbol on the bibles, flags, shirts, etc, I knew that the game wasn't going to directly reference any real religion or political group. The more trailers they showed, the sillier and more irreverent they made the game appear. Anyone who genuinely believed that a Far Cry game would provide a serious critique of American culture and politics was only fooling themselves.
 
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