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Feminist Discussion of Anime and Manga |OT| Not your waifu

Saucycarpdog

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,345
This is largely going to be a thread where people can discuss feminist theory of anime and manga as well as recommend ones that you believe show positive feminism. First let's briefly go over feminist theory.

What is Feminist Theory?

Feminist theory covers a broad range of topics, but for this thread we're gonna be focusing on feminist theory as it pertains to pieces of fictional media. In the case of this thread, we are framing anime and manga through a feminist lens and covering topics like gender inequality, representation, stereotyping, objectification, among others. The point of such discussion is meant to point out viewpoints and attitudes held by a work of art.

Ground Rules

Please refrain from

  • hostility towards anyone
  • generalizing groups of people or fandoms
  • accusations of censorship
  • arguments of who can and can't discuss this topic
  • Dismissing or handwaving legitimate issues with a certain anime or manga
  • Using this thread to whine about feminism or liberal views
I will add more rules to the OP if issues arise. I know these kind of topics can go shit real quick.

Links

Some websites and left leaning YT channels to check out. If people have anymore they would like to recommend, I'll add them to the OP. There ain't much I can find so please do so.

 
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Antrax

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,283
Gotta say, I'm still surprised at how well Dr. Stone is treating their non-binary/gender neutral character.

Shame a lot of the women are still drawn the way they are. But I was still surprised (so far).
 

Deleted member 56803

Banned
May 17, 2019
2,649
Carol and Tuesday is the first anime I've seen in a long long time that has not resorted to fan service in copious amounts, excessive sexualization, treating female characters like people, and has even managed to avoid the tropes that are ever so prevalent in anime. Great work on Watanabe's part.

However, anime and manga are just so plain regressive compared to even mainstream American comics. Largely the reason I quit watching anime. That and the fact that the main audience seem not be able to think about the work critically at all.
 
Metalsnakezero

Metalsnakezero

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,037
From the wild lands of Brooklyn
One of my favorite series from last year was Revue Starlight. It about a group of girl stage performers who in their daily life train to become stage performers but the group of 9 girls do battle at a hidden stage to get a chance to become top star. It themes range from natural talent vs hard work, tradition, and wanting to make change to a system that rewards those who already have privilege. It a all female cast, very little fan-service, and is queer coated. The director, Tomohiro Furukawa, worked with Kunihiko Ikuhara and it telling what he picked up when making this show.

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2001%20-%20Large%2043.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2001%20-%20Large%2029.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2004%20-%20Large%2006.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2018.jpg
 
Vee

Vee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,554
I'm a huge fan of One Piece and the representation of the woman in the series really bums me out.

This article by Jackson P Brown is a good read that pretty much talks about the major role differences attractive woman in OP play versus the comically hideous ones :

One thing that's not mentioned in the article is Great Staff Officer Tsuru who I always thought was a cool character design that wasn't an attractive lady or grotesque abomination:
Tsuru%2B2.png


But my god is her devil fruit one of the most sexist things I've ever seen, She carrys all the powers of a glorified washing machine, the perfect power for a domesticated wife type. I've heard arguments that its one of the most powerful fruits in the series because it washes away any opponents will to fight etc. But people that say that are missing the context the powers are based on, like idgaf about the results of the power my question is why the old woman gets clothes washing powers. This is some get back in the kitchen shit and such a sexist fruit for the only female marine that seems to matter. Sorry Tashigi but your only reason to exist is to get wreckt meanwhile Koby gets to be a badass despite having less time in the marines as Tashigi but who cares right?
 
Mr_Antimatter

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
While not solely regarded as a feminist anime, I could write a dissertation on Revolutionary Girl Utena and its surrealist examination of gender, role, agency, exploitation, lust and self discovery.

Its the only show for which i own multiple editions and formats.

Also, strong shout outs to two other related series, Serial Experiments Lain and Haibane Renmei. Both feature strong female casts and wonderful art and themes.
 
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Saucycarpdog

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,345
Moonkid said:
Might be worth including some introductory texts/videos on feminist theory and how it disseminated into media studies.
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I'm afraid I don't have any with me at the moment. I can point to Lindsay Ellis Whole Plate series where she talks a bit about feminist theory and shows how to apply it to a film.

 
peyrin

peyrin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,408
California
Metalsnakezero said:
One of my favorite series from last year was Revue Starlight. It about a group of girl stage performers who in their daily life train to become stage performers but the group of 9 girls do battle at a hidden stage to get a chance to become top star. It themes range from natural talent vs hard work, tradition, and wanting to make change to a system that rewards those who already have privilege. It a all female cast, very little fan-service, and is queer coated. The director, Tomohiro Furukawa, worked with Kunihiko Ikuhara and it telling what he picked up when making this show.
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Revue Starlight's discussion of reforming the system within from a position of privilege vs. dismantling the system from the outside is definitely one of the most politically relevant themes in anime this decade. I basically recommend Revue Starlight to people these days as a de facto Ikuhara anime and a great accessible gateway into his work.

Anyway, on the topic of Ikuhara, his latest show is about to wrap up and it's been a wild ride. It's been more Penguindrum-ish with how it intertwines stories of personal connection with broader criticism of how modern capitalistic/technological society acts as obstacles, but there's a lot of discussion of marginalized groups too. Non-queer characters have had like 5 seconds of screentime across the entire show, lol.

ALSO, Yuri Kuma Arashi is easily on par with his other work and a seminal work in queer anime and DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU OTHERWISE
 
Leo

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,554
Vee said:
I'm a huge fan of One Piece and the representation of the woman in the series really bums me out.

This article by Jackson P Brown is a good read that pretty much talks about the major role differences attractive woman in OP play versus the comically hideous ones :

One thing that's not mentioned in the article is Great Staff Officer Tsuru who I always thought was a cool character design that wasn't an attractive lady or grotesque abomination:
Tsuru%2B2.png


But my god is her devil fruit one of the most sexist things I've ever seen, She carrys all the powers of a glorified washing machine, the perfect power for a domesticated wife type. I've heard arguments that its one of the most powerful fruits in the series because it washes away any opponents will to fight etc. But people that say that are missing the context the powers are based on, like idgaf about the results of the power my question is why the old woman gets clothes washing powers. This is some get back in the kitchen shit and such a sexist fruit for the only female marine that seems to matter. Sorry Tashigi but your only reason to exist is to get wreckt meanwhile Koby gets to be a badass despite having less time in the marines as Tashigi but who cares right?
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So are we talking about how Sanji is gross and one of the worst characters of all time here? Cause when I tried to mention the fact in other threads, I was shut by his defense force.
 
Pellaidh

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,173
Kind of wanted to ask this question for a while, but never really knew where (since most places for anime discussion tend to lack any sort of space for nuance), but this thread seems like a good place:

What did people who are more familiar with feminism (or just women in general, since this is coming from a male POW) think of Maquia? I ask because I'm not really completely sure of what to make of it.

On one hand, I think it's literally the only anime I've seen that actually seems to be made from a woman's point of view, and where the female protagonist can actually exist for herself instead of just existing as a part of some male fantasy. And in a way, it's kind of really sad that I can't think of more anime like that. Even things traditionally brought up as examples of feminism still pretty much always have elements that bring them down. K-On being the first example that comes to mind, with elements that seemingly exists only to remind you of the creepy part of the audience that's totally watching the show just for their weird fetishes. And this is even true for shows directed by woman directors (well, obviously, since K-On is one such show). Hell, it's even true for most of Okada's other work, which is why I found Maquia especially surprising.

But Maqiua just isn't like that. It has straight up no fanservice, treats its female protagonist as a real person rather than an object, and it never feels like it's trying to fetishize its characters. And it tells a great story of parenting and motherhood that's both female focused while still being relatable to most people regardless of gender (since most people did at some point in their life have a mother).

But on the other hand, it feels like it really, really leans on traditional gender roles, by basically saying that a woman's worth comes entirely from her being a mother. There's a particularly eye-rolling scene near the end that basically equates a woman giving birth with a man fighting in a war.

But again from a different point of view, it is a story that's really focused on telling the story of motherhood. And in this sense it feels like this sort of thing might be justified? Because if you're going to make a story about motherhood, gender roles are going to be an issue. And also, does the fact that this is a movie that treats motherhood with the same weight and emotional investment that most anime reserves for fighting and killing and male POW romance make it more feminist? Obviously I don't really know, which is why I'm interested in how other people saw it.
 
Metalsnakezero

Metalsnakezero

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,037
From the wild lands of Brooklyn
For clarity I'm male so my perspective maybe skewed but as a child my mother looked to have a flexible life, time for herself and time for me. I think part of it is did she chose to be a mother and focus on that role? Parenthood will always be a complicated thing when factoring gender roles and where the characters themselves want to fit in on their own terms.
 
Lulu

Lulu

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
26,680
Although non of them are really prominent fighters aside from Biscuit, HxH has some great female characters including an extremely well done trans character.

Dying to see Biscuit fuck shit up.
 

Deleted member 5593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
Never forget, Berserk used a woman's period as a plot device to make her inept at combat.

And of course she gets sexually assaulted in that same episode/battle.... And that's just the tip of the iceberg for that series.
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
Fairy Tail does have fanservice but it has a lot of badass female fighters, I wish Mirajane had more time to shine, Erza is badass at least
 
AliceAmber

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,686
Metalsnakezero said:
One of my favorite series from last year was Revue Starlight. It about a group of girl stage performers who in their daily life train to become stage performers but the group of 9 girls do battle at a hidden stage to get a chance to become top star. It themes range from natural talent vs hard work, tradition, and wanting to make change to a system that rewards those who already have privilege. It a all female cast, very little fan-service, and is queer coated. The director, Tomohiro Furukawa, worked with Kunihiko Ikuhara and it telling what he picked up when making this show.

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2001%20-%20Large%2043.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2001%20-%20Large%2029.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2004%20-%20Large%2006.jpg

Shoujo%20Kageki%20Revue%20Starlight%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2018.jpg
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This looks right up my alley, I'm totally going to check this out!
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
DragonSJG said:
Fairy Tail does have fanservice but it has a lot of badass female fighters, I wish Mirajane had more time to shine, Erza is badass at least
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Sorry, I can't take seriously someone who is wearing a thong, bra and thigh high stockings plus heels. Erza and Lucy were the worst, especially Erza with her 'armors'.
Fairy Tail has some strong female characters, I won't deny it, but Mashima made his best to sexualize them in almost every regard. It gets worse each arc.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I'm guessing we don't have a Revue Starlight OT, which is not so terrible as I haven't yet seen it, but just makes me want to watch the show so I can create that thread and title it "Harold, they're thespians".
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
Linkark07 said:
Sorry, I can't take seriously someone who is wearing a thong, bra and thigh high stockings plus heels. Erza and Lucy were the worst, especially Erza with her 'armors'.
Fairy Tail has some strong female characters, I won't deny it, but Mashima made his best to sexualize them in almost every regard. It gets worse each arc.
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Does it make me bad if I can still watch FT regardless?

And at least Erza has this too:

and for Lucy, this isn't too bad
 
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apocat

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,056
Mr_Antimatter said:
While not solely regarded as a feminist anime, I could write a dissertation on Revolutionary Girl Utena and its surrealist examination of gender, role, agency, exploitation, lust and self discovery.

Its the only show for which i own multiple editions and formats.

Also, strong shout outs to two other related series, Serial Experiments Lain and Haibane Renmei. Both feature strong female casts and wonderful art and themes.
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I watch very little anime, but all those three shows are fantastic, especially Utena. Absolutely wonderful shows.

AAK said:
Never forget, Berserk used a woman's period as a plot device to make her inept at combat.

And of course she gets sexually assaulted in that same episode/battle.... And that's just the tip of the iceberg for that series.
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I love Berserk, but it has sooo many problematic aspects to it that often gets in the way of me enjoying it. It can be a bummer at times.
 
Famassu

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Metalsnakezero said:
For clarity I'm male so my perspective maybe skewed but as a child my mother looked to have a flexible life, time for herself and time for me. I think part of it is did she chose to be a mother and focus on that role? Parenthood will always be a complicated thing when factoring gender roles and where the characters themselves want to fit in on their own terms.
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Real life women choosing parenthood over careers/other things doesn't really factor into criticism over fiction sidelining female characters who become parents & women defaulting to that role, just like how real-life women deciding to wear revealing clothing doesn't factor into the criticism over the prevelence of objectified, hyper sexualized female character designs. There's nothing wrong with a woman in real life choosing parenthood (though if they feel like they are forced to do it because society doesn't allow them any other options, that's somewhat of an issue). There is something objectionable when every pair in Dragon Ball Z who get a child, it's always the women who completely disappear into their parenthood.
 
JCG

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
I think it's almost impossible to watch anime or read manga, not only right now but for quite some time, without eventually running right into any number of issues regarding the portrayal of female characters.

It's still quite possible for a given title to make the problematic aspects work as part of a larger story (as some could argue happens in the more interesting cases, even if they're not always explicitly being countered or subverted within the narrative), but such an outcome doesn't eliminate the need for discussion.

Needless to say, even among individuals who describe themselves as feminist there is no such thing as universal agreement about the relative merits or flaws of all relevant works. There's a lot of room for thought and debate. In that sense, I've appreciated the growth of sites like Anime Feminist and other similar critical resources.
 
Famassu

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
JCG said:
I think it's almost impossible to watch anime or read manga, not only right now but for quite some time, without eventually running right into any number of issues regarding the portrayal of female characters.

It's still quite possible for a given title to make the problematic aspects work as part of a larger story (as some could argue happens in the more interesting cases, even if they're not always explicitly being countered or subverted within the narrative), but such an outcome doesn't eliminate the need for discussion.

Needless to say, even among individuals who describe themselves as feminist there is no such thing as universal agreement about the relative merits or flaws of all relevant works. There's a lot of room for thought and debate. In that sense, I've appreciated the growth of sites like Anime Feminist and other similar critical resources.
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Mostly if you stay within the confines of Shonen & other generally problematic (sub-)genres of manga, and keep almost exclusively to male creators. Read something outside those genres (Solanin, Goodbye PunPun, Vinland Saga & Planetes) & manga created by women (CLAMP stuff, Hikaru no Go, Mushishi etc.) and it's not all THAT hard to not run into something with half-naked lolis & other fun stuff every other page. Nothing is ever perfect but, like, there's a clear difference between Full Metal Alchemist (a shonen manga written & drawn by a woman) and all the Narutos, One Pieces, Dragon Balls & such that are done by men.
 
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Saucycarpdog

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,345
DragonSJG said:
Is it bad if you enjoy shows that do have portrayal issues like one piece?
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No. As long as you acknowledge the issues. Anime feminist wrote an entire piece about this very topic.
I won't insist it's feminist or applauds it for its ideas about sexualization as empowerment, but I'll happily defend it for its action scenes, Satsuki as my problematic fave, and Mako as Ryuko's girlfriend. And that's okay. I can criticize it and enjoy it.
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Famassu

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
DragonSJG said:
Is it bad if you enjoy shows that do have portrayal issues like one piece?
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Depends. One piece ultimately seems pretty mild when it comes to this stuff. You can enjoy it just fine just so long as you don't go around feverishly attacking anyone & everyone who brings up criticism of its female characters. Now, if we're talking about something like Goblin Slayer or loli-harem mangas where gross misogyny and/or sexualization of minors is pretty much a core aspect of the manga, I'd certainly say side-eyes is warranted when it comes to people who say they enjoy those.
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
Famassu said:
Depends. One piece ultimately seems pretty mild when it comes to this stuff. You can enjoy it just fine just so long as you don't go around feverishly attacking anyone & everyone who brings up criticism of its female characters. Now, if we're talking about something like Goblin Slayer or loli-harem mangas where gross misogyny and/or sexualization of minors is pretty much a core aspect of the manga, I'd certainly say side-eyes is warranted when it comes to people who say they enjoy those.
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Nah, I meant more like Fairy Tail/One Piece

I don't watch Goblin slayer or loli/harem at all
 
Ogodei

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Gaming_Groove said:
My girlfriend is a huge fan of the One Piece manga, so she's been getting me caught up by watching the anime with me. Just got past the time skip, and I have to say, there are quite a few things that have been off-putting to me. The female character designs have only become more ridiculous as the series has gone on, at least to the point I'm at. There are examples of body-type diversity throughout the series, but most of our lead characters have impossible figures and fanservicey outfits. The handling of LGBTQ characters is also a major issue, especially with regards to Sanji, who I would have expected to gain some level of respect and understanding during his two years of training, but instead is worse than ever.

One Piece has a ton of wonderful things going for it, but there are definitely times where I feel extremely icky enjoying it. =\
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There really isn't much body-type diversity and I say that as a huge fan of One Piece. Also faces for women.

Off the top of my head I can think of Miss Monday and a number of the Amazons break from the norm, which is "Nami, Robin, or heavy and ugly."
 
Scheris

Scheris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,383
I found a manga recently, Fukakai na Boku no Subete o, that did a surprisingly good and authentic look at gender (both in a non-binary and binary sense, depending on the character), sexuality, cross dressing & gender dysphoria.


(The description in the above link explains the basic premise, so I'm linking to it instead of copying it into this thread.)

I've seen a fair share of manga & anime that would either use this annoyingly for fan service or as a joke, but in the first chapter does an great job at not skirting around gender and someone being non-binary.

I don't want to spoil things about specific characters or plot points past the first chapter, but there's one character who's transgender and is treated with care in the story. Some of the characters are from what I can tell so far just wanting to cross-dress, and the story treats that as normal.

There is a romantic plot thread that happens a little bit in (won't spoil details as it's worth going in blind IMO) that uses the overused "lesbian friend" trope you see sometimes in manga as the "rival", but it's not superficial as it goes into the backstory as to why they acted like that and makes the reader emphasize with her.

(No western publisher has picked it up, so it's only scanlations for now, with 12 chapters released so far. I'm really hoping it eventually gets picked up, as I'd love to have an official physical copy if possible.)

It's a great read if you are wanting to read a manga that brings these issues up in an intelligent manner. I'm really hoping future chapters keep things going in a similar manner to how the first twelve chapters have been.

(Also, typing this up on my phone, so apologies if i accidentally autocorrected something badly.)
 
peyrin

peyrin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,408
California
Finaj said:
That element of the plot in Hisone & Masotan was really disappointing.

It's a shame because I just -love- the artstyle and the expressions it allows for.

Also, This:

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I still have a soft spot for Hisomaso but yeah the criticism of workplace sexism ends up really really muddy and I get why people interpret it the way they do. I think it's a good-intentioned attempt at going after how hard it is to be a non-cis male in industries historically dominated by cis males, but at the same time it tries to pursue a message of finding a passion in your job which doesn't fit well with the sexism themes at all. I respect that it tried at all to have a message and not do straight fanservice, but it definitely didn't stick the landing
 
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