FGC pros and youtubers are asking developers to stop making fighting games easier

[zerocalories]

i've rarely seen youtubers/high-end players make good suggestions to games

i honestly trust the develop 99% over some dude who works for clicks/ads & top-end players who don't really have a lot perspective on the entire playing populace

 

[Oddish1]

faster game speed generally = more APM, more muscle memory to be able to react to every scenario, more interactions per match. Individual move inputs aren't necessarily tougher is what you mean, maybe? in which case sure its still a low skill floor in that regard.

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Yeah, for individual move inputs the difficulty is still low and I think that matters a lot. Something I can't help but feel watching Max's video and reading the thread is that depth, high execution, complexity, and difficulty are all kind of lumped together when they are all different things. Ideally, all video games strive for low complexity and great depth. It's just we don't really know what the sweet spot for fighting games is. Or if there even is one.

 

[Shadoken]

Tekken 7s success was thanks to SFV sucking ?
Aight

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Its like saying Fortnite became big because Pubg dropped the ball. Its not the only factor , but it sure did help a lot.

 

[A Strong Latte]

i've rarely seen youtubers/high-end players make good suggestions to games

i honestly trust the develop 99% over some dude who works for clicks/ads & top-end players who don't really have a lot perspective on the entire playing populace

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games being good at a high level is good for everyone.

 

[Deleted member 32615]

The only reason people are playing these newer games with lower skill floors is prize pool. Look at MVCI, it's got easier mechanics and arguably the most fun gameplay out of all MVC's, but it has no prizepool so no one's playing it.

SFV has a hard drop in viewers, it's not even getting last spot at EVO like it usually does. Slap DBFZ onto another property and that game would be dead in the water, a watered down version of UMVC3 without Dragon Ball chars

Is enjoyment found in this game? Yes! Is there memorable moments in these games that are comparable to the Daigo Parry, The Wong Factor, Wombo Combo etc etc. Nope! I haven't seen a clip from SFV or DBFZ with the same amount of hype ever.

People who ask for easier entry into fighting games aren't playing fighting games and never will. Fighting games are competitive in nature and some people aren't going to enjoy that, and some people are gonna grind in a training mode 24/7


Personally I'd rather see fighting games take a more interesting approach with good singleplayer content to keep casual players satisfied for the week they play the game before moving on.

 

[KingM]

The only reason people are playing these newer games with lower skill floors is prize pool. Look at MVCI, it's got easier mechanics and arguably the most fun gameplay out of all MVC's, but it has no prizepool so no one's playing it.

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There's more than just the prize pool. MvCi had a horrid launch and presentation-wise looked like trash next to DBFZ which came out shortly after. It has more depth than DBFZ, but couldn't get people into during it's launch.

SFV has a hard drop in viewers, it's not even getting last spot at EVO like it usually does. Slap DBFZ onto another property and that game would be dead in the water, a watered down version of UMVC3 without Dragon Ball chars

Is enjoyment found in this game? Yes! Is there memorable moments in these games that are comparable to the Daigo Parry, The Wong Factor, Wombo Combo etc etc. Nope! I haven't seen a clip from SFV or DBFZ with the same amount of hype ever.

People who ask for easier entry into fighting games aren't playing fighting games and never will. Fighting games are competitive in nature and some people aren't going to enjoy that, and some people are gonna grind in a training mode 24/7

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That doesn't seem true though. Every fighting game developer from Capcom to Namco to ArcSys to NRS have been finding ways to simplify their games this last generation and outside of Capcom most fighting games are doing incredibly well with their big series outselling or doing equally as well as previous titles.

Personally I'd rather see fighting games take a more interesting approach with good singleplayer content to keep casual players satisfied for the week they play the game before moving on.

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Casual gamers enjoy multiplayer though. They make up the bulk of online, the low levels of ranked play are the most populated and those are for the most part casual players.

 

[Deleted member 10549]

I hate that in Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur VI ( games that are super easy to get into) they implemented x-ray-like moves that you can use every round, which for me as a semi-casual fighting game player kinda ruins the game, because there are situations where I lose despite playing better, because enemy used super-move (which I couldnt because I had too much HP) that takes about 30-40% of hp with a single press of a button and it is easy to pull off so that you cant block it. My friends which are casual fighting game players hate that too. I dont know who is this for, I hate it especially in Tekken because I loved this series. It was just fine without it, so why?

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I hate that in Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur VI ( games that are super easy to get into) they implemented x-ray-like moves that you can use every round, which for me as a semi-casual fighting game player kinda ruins the game, because there are situations where I lose despite playing better, because enemy used super-move (which I couldnt because I had too much HP) that takes about 30-40% of hp with a single press of a button and it is easy to pull off so that you cant block it. My friends which are casual fighting game players hate that too. I dont know who is this for, I hate it especially in Tekken because I loved this series. It was just fine without it, so why?

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Rage Arts aren't nearly as bad as some other games comeback mechanics. You should be able to deal with them as part of being the better player.

 

[Modal Soul]

Alright, so, this is like a tangent I guess? I don't know it's late, so please bear with me.

So, as someone who enjoys fighting games as a spectator and as a casual player, I can say this: I don't have a problem with execution, my main gripe is that there's no communication between newcomers and experienced players where we don't get both parties talking past each other. I've played Tekken since I was damn near 5 years old on a PSX console. No, there were no arcades in bumfuck Suffolk, VA or in the small city like Hampton, VA. I didn't have anyone to play Tekken with besides a little brother.

Wanna know how I learned to be semi-ok (which is maybe trash lol) when Tekken 5 came out? I had to resort to reading up on move lists on goddamn Tekken Zaibatsu's forum lol. There should be a blend of input options. Easier to advance inputs shouldn't just be this or the other, there need to be options, and Max's agrees that there should be options. If there's a casual player who wants to use auto combos, it should be in their right to have the training wheels on first before they split off and learn what does what. DBFZ did this when I played it. Doing auto-combos with Android 16 was fine, then I started to branch off and find out what did what.

The game should be able to give me options, not just give me one thing and then send me off on my merry way. I want information, I want to feel like I'm learning, I want to feel some validation for actually wanting to learn. If something is hard, my first instinct is to ask about it, not quit. And I feel like this a lot of people generalize "casuals" and treat them like a monolith. A casual player like me wants to learn, and I'm coming to you guys, the people who are seasoned for advice.

No, I don't need you to hold my hand, because when I do go online and when I do get into matches, my instinct isn't to go "Gee I wish XxGamerxX was here to do this screw combo for me with Feng Wei". That's why I feel so disconnected from the FGC sometimes because people get set in their ways, and I feel like me asking a question is inconvenient to the person who's more seasoned than me. What I'm getting at is that sometimes casuals want to learn the game, but there are instances where they don't have anyone to communicate with one on one.

I don't get frustrated at losing, because that loss in this one video game doesn't hurt my ego; I get frustrated at losing, wanting to know what I did wrong, and not having anything in-game or out in the community to bounce my thoughts off of.

 

[NekoNeko]

games being good at a high level is good for everyone.

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not nearly as important for game sales as people think.

 

[A Strong Latte]

not nearly as important for game sales as people think.

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Literally who fucking cares about sales other than shareholders.

 

[lucebuce]

Literally who fucking cares about sales other than shareholders.

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People who want the game to make money so that a new one comes out.

 

[Deleted member 10549]

Rage Arts aren't nearly as bad as some other games comeback mechanics. You should be able to deal with them as part of being the better player.

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I'm still probably trash-tier when it comes to skill in fighting games, but when the person you're playing with has a bit of a brain too, then he will time his rage art the moment you start attacking. This rage art thing just makes the game slower when someone has low health because everyone needs to be focused and cautious. It breaks the pace.

 

[A Strong Latte]

People who want the game to make money so that a new one comes out.

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If the game isn't fun at a moderate to high level I don't care if another one comes out.

 

[NekoNeko]

Literally who fucking cares about sales other than shareholders.

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this entire topic is about it. Pros want the game to be catered to them when they are largely irrelevant.

 

[Modal Soul]

If the game isn't fun at a moderate to high level I don't care if another one comes out.

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If a majority of people thought that way Tekken would've stopped at fucking 2.

 

[Raide]

this entire topic is about it. Pros want the game to be catered to them when they are largely irrelevant.

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I don't think its just that. Outside of elitist jerks, most high-end/Pro players want new players to come into the fold and be able to learn the mechanics enough, enjoy playing and have a reason to keep playing through regular content updates etc, so those same Pro's potentially have more people to play against. Its not hard to see that people at a high level would really like it if more people supported the games they play, since its more audience for them. Simple business.

 

[Seeya]

this entire topic is about it. Pros want the game to be catered to them when they are largely irrelevant.

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Well to be fair, they are largely saying that the games are easy enough as is now, and that devs should be focusing on content and polish, not dumbing things down even more. SFV didn't sell well, but it wasn't because the game wasn't easy enough. MvCI bombed even though it's a very good FG. MK exploded in popularity due to content and polish.

Sure they may overall want some elements to get HARDER than the current norm, but they're literally, mostly, asking for things that they themselves don't care about which they view as having the best impact on the game for driving adoption and bringing people in.

And they do have a point about how there are some FG that are simplified enough as is, as well as the simplified mechanics not closing the skill gap.

 

[Oddish1]

So having finished Max's video and stewing on it I kinda agree but kinda disagree. For one thing his point that gameplay mechanics don't sell fighting games seems strange. I think the fighting games' gameplay matter as much as any other genre's gameplay when it comes to selling them. It matters, but things like targeting an audience, marketing to them, and good word of mouth also matter a whole lot. I agree with his point about fighting games being satisfying is more important than having a lower skill ceiling. I think fighting games should have a lower execution barrier overall, but they should do that while avoiding lowering the mechanical depth as much as possible. Lowering the execution barrier is something he kinda glosses over though when I think that's the main issue with fighting game's accessibility.

Kinda random tangent, but in regards to Dragonball Fighterz and Granblue, something to consider is that they are fighting game spin-offs of a popular franchise. And for those two games ArcSys was trying to implement mechanics to resemble aspects of the franchise. So I think the lack of depth for those games can also be due to ArcSys trying unconventional mechanics for a fighting game and just missing the mark. They are first attempts at it and I imagine any sequels to those games would be better implementations of those ideas. I don't think Max's conclusion that they deliberately lack depth to appeal to newcomers makes sense.

I do agree with his comments on increasing the quality of single player campaigns. That can be incredibly enticing to newer players to stick around. Ironically, I feel like the poor single player campaigns from recent fighting games is due to developers neglecting it to focus on esports and the competitive side of the game.

Going into this video I thought he was going to make the argument that making fighting games more accessible is making those games have less mechanical depth. Which is hot nonsense. But he deliberately does not do that. Overall, this video is pretty tame, and I think Max kinda avoids taking any hard stances. His main argument is that fighting games should have little complexity, and high depth and that things like visuals and robust content are important to its success. Which, yeah, of course. Developers know this. They are not intentionally lowering the overall depth, they are trying to make it more accessible while maintaining or increasing depth and sometimes that doesn't work. I think its a bit of a strawman to say that developers are intentionally lowering the game's skill ceiling to appeal to a mass market. They're trying to lower the floor but sometimes unintentionally lower the ceiling, which happens sometimes. But that doesn't make a very compelling video.

 

[Village]

Literally who fucking cares about sales other than shareholders.

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Eh if you want your game to continue existing, you should care to some degree.

 

[DmckPower]

There needs to be a fighting game that has mechanics as intuitive & simple as "aim and shoot" which almost anyone can do to varying degrees of success.

Instead most fightings frankly have completely obscure mechanics and developers purposely don't communicate the rules of their games well. Harada hides frame data(an essential aspect of play) from practice mode..His reason is almost literally "just cause".

Fighting games deserve to not be popular at this point.

 

[A Strong Latte]

There needs to be a fighting game that has mechanics as intuitive & simple as "aim and shoot" which almost anyone can do to varying degrees of success.

Instead most fightings frankly have completely obscure mechanics which developers purposely don't communicate the rules of their games well.

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We have Nidhogg- but most people are going to think it's "shallow" because it's intuitive.

Eh if you want your game to continue existing, you should care to some degree.

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Yet we still have Samsho, Street Fighter after SF3, KOF and Guilty Gear all games that had well playing entries that bombed hard, or sold very modestly.

I'm not saying that I don't want games I like to be successful lol. I'm saying it's more important - to me - that they're well playing, fun games first and foremost rather than that they're attractive packages for consumers. The game should come first, then the window dressing on top of a good base. I just find the thought process that says the game being fun or not at a mid to high level isn't important ridiculous. If a game has degenerate shit in it and you have to play against it it won't matter how good the single player mode, graphics, or hype roster is when you're stuck in an infinite combo in the corner.

 

[Gelf]

It's such a difficult balance. I'm not good at fighters and largely skip a lot of mechanics and combos because I can't do them but at the same time I understand a little how the pros feel because if the inputs I can do got overly simplified I wouldn't enjoy playing as much either. Something about nailing an input at the right time feels good in a way a one button execution doesn't, even if for me that's only at the level of hitting a dragon punch motion at the right time rather than being able to do long complex combos.

I tend to agree with the idea of keeping the ceiling high and just offering other features for none competitive play.

 

[Deleted member 10551]

The only reason people are playing these newer games with lower skill floors is prize pool. Look at MVCI, it's got easier mechanics and arguably the most fun gameplay out of all MVC's, but it has no prizepool so no one's playing it.

SFV has a hard drop in viewers, it's not even getting last spot at EVO like it usually does. Slap DBFZ onto another property and that game would be dead in the water, a watered down version of UMVC3 without Dragon Ball chars

Is enjoyment found in this game? Yes! Is there memorable moments in these games that are comparable to the Daigo Parry, The Wong Factor, Wombo Combo etc etc. Nope! I haven't seen a clip from SFV or DBFZ with the same amount of hype ever.

People who ask for easier entry into fighting games aren't playing fighting games and never will. Fighting games are competitive in nature and some people aren't going to enjoy that, and some people are gonna grind in a training mode 24/7


Personally I'd rather see fighting games take a more interesting approach with good singleplayer content to keep casual players satisfied for the week they play the game before moving on.

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The prize pool doesn't bring entrants. Every pot monster knows they're not going to sniff a bit of that money. SFV has entrants due to a combination of inertia and because it takes very little effort to be decent in, and there's always the chance you can knock off some top player due to comeback factor/just rolling on a lucky hit due to lack of defensive options and high damage. I managed to beat pro level players in SFV on occasion that way which was absolute garbage and pure luck. It didn't even feel rewarding because I knew it was garbage.

Oh, one more reason SF5 gets so much hate. Gamification aspects with things like limited-time costumes and other gacha mechanics- people stick around for those goodies due to sunk cost fallacy- so instead of just moving on, they're hating themselves and the game for staying with it. This is why I think SF5 has done lasting damage- those folks are probably not going to come back for SF6- at least not without a belief that the game is good and won't abuse them the way SF5 did.

With the exception of NRS, every other game company this generation has done a great job of respecting their customers, and at least NRS gives casual players a lot of cool shit that do that isn't playing the core fighting game (which casuals don't want to do )

 

[PSqueak]

I just wish more fighting games simplified user input. Not everything has to be Super Smash Bros, but memorization of combo strings and special moves is the worst part of the fighting game experience.

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Try the power rangers game, it's basically MVC3 but specials are done smash bros style.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Oh, one more reason SF5 gets so much hate. Gamification aspects with things like limited-time costumes and other gacha mechanics- people stick around for those goodies due to sunk cost fallacy- so instead of just moving on, they're hating themselves and the game for staying with it. This is why I think SF5 has done lasting damage- those folks are probably not going to come back for SF6- at least not without a belief that the game is good and won't abuse them the way SF5 did.

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People will come back for SF6 if it plays well. It's street fighter. If years of SF4's bullshit didn't drive them off, and SFV is still around despite the worst launch ever, they will come back.

 

[lucebuce]

Try the power rangers game, it's basically MVC3 but specials are done smash bros style.

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I would...

if they would just release it on Steam already 😢

 

[Deleted member 10551]

People will come back for SF6 if it plays well. It's street fighter. If years of SF4's bullshit didn't drive them off, and SFV is still around despite the worst launch ever. They will come back.

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I agree, if it plays well, or if people believe it plays well at first. Capcom's going to "ask" some top players to say its "sick and creative" just to try and convince folks. (and yes, the MVCI stuff is going to make folks more skeptical of Capcom as well) The fact we got all those other awesome games this gen though means Capcom's going to have to make it good. Unlike previous bad Capcom games- instead of actual hate towards the game, I'm seeing something worse for Capcom- indifference. The folks who don't care about SF5 - they're just not playing/entering it period. They've moved on, they might complain places like here- but a lot of them have discovered that there's more to fighting games besides Capcom. This wasn't even the case in the dark ages.

It really reminds me of WWE, folks were mad at WWE for years, complaining about Shoving Cena and Roman down their throats. When Kenny did his NJPW run and helped put NJPW on the map, and then AEW, a lot of those folks who were mad- they stopped watching WWE because they had an alternative. For the first time, the FGC is really paying attention en masse to the alternatives. Those alternatives existed in the dark ages as well, but you were looked at as a weirdo if you wanted to play them instead of Capcom games. Now they're cool.

 

[Village]

We have Nidhogg- but most people are going to think it's "shallow" because it's intuitive.


Yet we still have Samsho, Street Fighter after SF3, KOF and Guilty Gear all games that had well playing entries that bombed hard, or sold very modestly.

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If street fighter 4 failed we probs wouldn't exist. Samsho is buy a company that was bought out by a chinese company and funded that way because otherwis e it wouldn't exist and arcys is its own shit.

That doesn't really disprove what I said

 

[El Sabroso]

I agree with them, having a depth fighting game is enough, having games with just no depth at all just for the sake of making the game easier shuts a lot of replayability from it, as Max puts it in, it limits options, limiting options is never good, presentation and good amount of things to do is what sells a game not being easier

 

[ParmeSean]

i've rarely seen youtubers/high-end players make good suggestions to games

i honestly trust the develop 99% over some dude who works for clicks/ads & top-end players who don't really have a lot perspective on the entire playing populace

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Skullgirls was made by high-end players

 

[toad02]

i've rarely seen youtubers/high-end players make good suggestions to games

i honestly trust the develop 99% over some dude who works for clicks/ads & top-end players who don't really have a lot perspective on the entire playing populace

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The developers are often High End players. I.E Seth Killian, Combofiend, Sirlin...

 

[Vex]

Easier mechanics will never close the skill gap between casuals and veterans.

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....🤔

So what's the problem here again? Veterans still get to be the best, but the lower end of players can actually pull off special moves and stuff? That's... good...? Why is this a bad bullet point? Do we not want average players to be able to do cool stuff? Just "veterans" right? Word?

 

[Dog]

People will come back for SF6 if it plays well.

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I'll be there day uno.

 

[A Strong Latte]

....🤔

So what's the problem here again? Veterans still get to be the best, but the lower end of players can actually pull off special moves and stuff? That's... good...? Why is this a bad bullet point? Do we not want average players to be able to do cool stuff? Just "veterans" right? Word?

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Lol 100% agree with you.

People keep posting some variant of "making mechanics easier won't close the skill gap" as if it's some KO punch to defend stupid bullshit like 1f links. As if that's the point of letting lower level players play the game and have fun

The goal of making the entry level mechanics easier isn't to make it so any random moron can beat Daigo. It's to get people actually playing the game and interested so that maybe you'll have more Daigos up and coming that may have otherwise never tried an FG because it's a pain in the ass. The goal for FGs should be to have a simple base level game people can understand that evolves into something deep once people get the hang of it that competitive players can sink their teeth into. It shouldn't be one or the other.

 

[headspawn]

....🤔

So what's the problem here again? Veterans still get to be the best, but the lower end of players can actually pull off special moves and stuff? That's... good...? Why is this a bad bullet point? Do we not want average players to be able to do cool stuff? Just "veterans" right? Word?

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Give the video in the OP a spin, he does a good job explaining why it sucks for the higher-end gamers and isn't really a boon for entry level players and at the same time, does nothing to actually attract more players.

 

[Thorn]

....🤔

So what's the problem here again? Veterans still get to be the best, but the lower end of players can actually pull off special moves and stuff? That's... good...? Why is this a bad bullet point? Do we not want average players to be able to do cool stuff? Just "veterans" right? Word?

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It makes the game less enjoyable for vets and doesn't improve enjoyment for casual players.

It helps NO ONE. Watch the video.

 

[A Strong Latte]

It makes the game less enjoyable for vets and doesn't improve enjoyment for casual players.

It helps NO ONE. Watch the video.

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This is literally false. You can make a game easy to play for noobs that's still interesting and challenging for vets. See Super Smash, Skullgirls, Undernight. Blazblue Tag. MVC. (x factor debatable lmao) For more recent examples... Million Arthur was easy to pick up when I played it in japan. I presume Samsho must be easy too because everyone is talking about it instead of shitting on it but I haven't touched it yet.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Give the video in the OP a spin, he does a good job explaining why it sucks for the higher-end gamers and isn't really a boon for entry level players and at the same time, does nothing to actually attract more players.

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It makes the game less enjoyable for vets and doesn't improve enjoyment for casual players.

It helps NO ONE. Watch the video.

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I mean, why not have easier execution while still have mechanical complexity?

 

[Thorn]

This is literally false. You can make a game easy to play for noobs that's still interesting and challenging for vets. See Super Smash, Skullgirls, MVC.

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Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say a game can't be enjoyed by all.

Just that dumbing down mechanics helps no one.

See: Auto Combos.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say a game can't be enjoyed by all.

Just that dumbing down mechanics helps no one.

See: Auto Combos.

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If you had said something about autocombos I would have responded to it.

When people talk about dumbed down mechanics, what gaMES ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT?

 

[Hooks]

I would like the option to toggle the comeback mechanics

 

[MegaBeefBowl]

....🤔

So what's the problem here again? Veterans still get to be the best, but the lower end of players can actually pull off special moves and stuff? That's... good...? Why is this a bad bullet point? Do we not want average players to be able to do cool stuff? Just "veterans" right? Word?

Click to shrink...

There is no point in giving a shortcut for execution development when there is no fun way to shortcut people into fundamentals.

It only makes the game more shallow at the top while keeping the skill gap just as wide for the dudes at the bottom. People at the top feel less rewarded for the time they've put into the game and the people at the bottom are still upset because they're losing every match. It feels like a lose-lose if, when it comes to the PvP aspect (The core experience of the genre), complexity is abandoned with no change in result.

And there should be things that the bottom end cannot do. If there is an optimized combo that has a 1f link it gives the lower end player something to work towards.

 

[mxbison]

Tekken 7s success was thanks to SFV sucking ?
Aight

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It definitely helped, I know several people - myself included - who switched to Tekken because they hate SF5.

Tekken 7 has something for all skill levels, from straight up button mashing to year long veteran who still sits in training mode trying to do taunt - jet upper or ewgf.

In SF5 you can learn all the technical stuff and combos for a character in like 1 hour. After that it's just reading, reacting and guessing.

 

[Thorn]

If you had said something about autocombos I would have responded to it.

When people talk about dumbed down mechanics, what gaMES ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT?

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Look at how quickly the scene died for DBZ. It has hype moments, sure, but it's simplified gameplay meant there was a low ceiling for options a player could work with. This is one of the reasons the scene dropped so hard.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

There is no point in giving a shortcut for execution development when there is no fun way to shortcut people into fundamentals.

It only makes the game more shallow at the top while keeping the skill gap just as wide for the dudes at the bottom. People at the top feel less rewarded for the time they've put into the game and the people at the bottom are still upset because they're losing every match. It feels like a lose-lose if, when it comes to the PvP aspect (The core experience of the genre), complexity is abandoned with no change in result.

And there should be things that the bottom end cannot do. If there is an optimized combo that has a 1f link it gives the lower end player something to work towards.

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Speaking for myself but I get the feeling I'm not alone in this- The frustration of getting bodied is nothing compared to the frustration of "why isn't the move coming out when I do the input?!".

So no, it wouldn't be a lose-lose. You can also do what GBVS did and provide both options with some incentive to do motion inputs.

I don't care about losing to high skill players, that's why they're high skilled.

 

[MegaBeefBowl]

Tekken 7s success was thanks to SFV sucking ?
Aight

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I think it played a part. I felt burned by SFV and tried Tekken 7 as my first Tekken game because I was hungry for a good fighting game.

 

[Pellaidh]

Gameplay mechanics don't sell fighting games; Presentation, character roster, and graphics move copies.

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I find it kind of interesting that every single fighting game discussion I see online always seems to ignore Brawlhalla. Which looks ugly as hell, has a roster of mostly copy pasted ugly original characters, and zero single player content.

And it's also the most popular fighting game on Steam going by steamcharts numbers. By a significant margin

And even more impressively, it has had consistently good player numbers ever since it launched. In fact, not just consistent, but consistently growing. On the other hand, every single other fighting game I can remember dropped player numbers drastically after a months or so. Its 24-hour peak is almost as big as Street Fighter V's all time peak. And SFV had free weekends at points, so even the fact that Brawlhalla is f2p doesn't seem to matter that much.

Sure, the fact that it's simple to play definitely isn't the only reason it's popular. Yes, being free to play is obviously a huge reason. And it also has things like a good monetization model, working netcode, and good online infrastructure. Even the bad graphics probably help its success simply because it makes it easier to run on older PCs. And these are all things most fighters lack.

But I'm simply not willing to believe that its simplicity isn't also a major factor for its success. After all, Rising Thunder was also f2p with good netcode, and that game died before it even got out of alpha. I mean its gameplay did completely and utterly suck, but apparently that's not supposed to matter because casuals somehow can't tell when a fighting game is crap. And let's not forget Icons, another absolute f2p disaster.

And from a personal perspective, easier execution and mechanics certainly get me to buy and play fighting games. And I'd describe myself as a casual fighting game player. Brawlhalla is literally the only game that fills the niche of a simple to play casual fighting game on PC. And unsurprisingly, it's doing incredibly well for itself.

So yeah, I'm going to need more convincing that simpler mechanics don't get casuals involved.

Speaking for myself but I get the feeling I'm not alone in this- The frustration of getting bodied is nothing compared to the frustration of "why isn't the move coming out when I do the input?!".

Click to shrink...

You're definitely not alone here. There's literally nothing worse in a fighting game than losing to someone who just keeps spamming jump ins because your shoryukens just don't come out 50% of the time. I don't mind losing, but knowing exactly what you're supposed to do to counter your opponent and still losing because of dropping inputs is the worst thing ever. Even more so because the only way to actually get better at this is to spend hours just spamming the same move in training mode. Which is the exact opposite of fun to me (although evidently most fighting game fans actually like this).

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Even more so because the only way to actually get better at this is to spend hours just spamming the same move in training mode. Which is the exact opposite of fun to me (although evidently most fighting game fans actually like this).

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The problem that I realize is that even if you do that, it still doesn't guarantee you can pull of the move in a match because of the added stress lol.

I can do fireball and DPs just fine in training, but in a match it's a 2 out of 3 chance.

 

[XuandeXun]

ITT: There are only two types of players who play fighting games, 99% CASUALS and 1% HARDCORES. The HARDCORES are a lot fewer, but invest 1000x the amount of time per player. Cater to the 1%, please, the unwashed masses don't know what's good for them.

Believe it or not, there's a spectrum between these two extremes.

I tried to play SSB: Melee competitively. I physically couldn't without experiencing significant pain in my wrists, and the lack of diverse controller options (with some of those even getting banned) made me give up on the endeavor. I did also try playing Melee at a more casual level, in the form of frequent 2v2s with dorm mates. It was boring, because I was more invested than the rest of the group, so I wasn't learning much or losing much.

SSB: Brawl offered alternative controls that worked for me. The mechanical skill barrier was lowered, both on the stupid low end (L-canceling) and on the higher end (Wavedashing, most ATs for specific characters). There was enough of an input buffer that using the wireless controller I needed to use wasn't totally screwing me. I ended up engaging with my community at our local arcade scene, which went on to host a lot of Regional and lower level Brawl tournaments, which in turn helped me up my game. I never went full pro (getting out of pools at Regional level was an accomplishment for me), but I was a hell of a lot more invested in getting good at Brawl, because it seemed possible to do. I got to meet and play against players like Dabuz and M2K (even if only in pools or first round bracket), something I never would have been able to do in Melee.

Melee may have been the better Smash game at the very top and bottom levels of play, but for someone like me, Brawl was the better competitive game of the two. I can say that while also saying that Melee is the better game to watch and to learn about for me, just not actually play.

But no, let's go back to arguing about how anyone who isn't showing up for weeklies in a big city is a CASUAL, and CASUALS only want shiny cutscenes and lore. Yes, those people exist, but they are not a monolith just because they're not you, the HARDCORE.