FGC pros and youtubers are asking developers to stop making fighting games easier

Oddish1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,164
Look at how quickly the scene died for DBZ. It has hype moments, sure, but it's simplified gameplay meant there was a low ceiling for options a player could work with. This is one of the reasons the scene dropped so hard.
I disagree with the idea that simplified gameplay necessarily means a low skill ceiling or no depth.

I also think fighting game's scenes fading so quickly is also in part due to how many new fighting games are released and competing with each other. People feel comfortable moving on when something is new on the horizon and there's always something new nowadays.
 

MegaBeefBowl

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,368
The problem that I realize is that even if you do that, it still doesn't guarantee you can pull of the move in a match because of the added stress lol.

I can do fireball and DPs just fine in training, but in a match it's a 2 out of 3 chance.
I don't mind losing, but knowing exactly what you're supposed to do to counter your opponent and still losing because of dropping inputs is the worst thing ever. Even more so because the only way to actually get better at this is to spend hours just spamming the same move in training mode. Which is the exact opposite of fun to me (although evidently most fighting game fans actually like this).
But like... this is essential to how fighting games work?

If doing a DP was easy and you could pull it off every time, why would anyone ever jump at you??

Not to mention that games have tried to accommodate for this specific scenario anyway. In Street Fighter, DPing a jump in is great, but Ryu's crouching fierce does the same job for less damage. The DP is the difficult, optimal reward for executing under stress.

It's very obvious that we want very different experiences from the genre, and I think that is why we aren't seeing eye to eye here.
 

Oddish1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,164
But like... this is essential to how fighting games work?

If doing a DP was easy and you could pull it off every time, why would anyone ever jump at you??

Not to mention that games have tried to accommodate for this specific scenario anyway. In Street Fighter, DPing a jump in is great, but Ryu's crouching fierce does the same job for less damage. The DP is the difficult, optimal reward for executing under stress.

It's very obvious that we want very different experiences from the genre, and I think that is why we aren't seeing eye to eye here.
It's not essential to how fighting games work as evidenced by how many fighting games are eliminating any motion harder than a hadoken and some going further than that. Having a fundamental tool of a character's moveset off-limits for some people to use due to difficulty in execution is poor game design for a casual and even a competitive mindset. It's why fighting games lag behind Fortnite, and MOBAs, and shooters in terms of sales and active playerbases. Because they have high skill ceilings but low execution barriers (compared to fighting games) that don't rely on things like stupid ass shoryuken motions to execute a basic fundamental move.
 

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
811
But like... this is essential to how fighting games work?

If doing a DP was easy and you could pull it off every time, why would anyone ever jump at you??

Not to mention that games have tried to accommodate for this specific scenario anyway. In Street Fighter, DPing a jump in is great, but Ryu's crouching fierce does the same job for less damage. The DP is the difficult, optimal reward for executing under stress.

It's very obvious that we want very different experiences from the genre, and I think that is why we aren't seeing eye to eye here.
I dunno, the way I always had fighting games explained to me is that they are about mind games. About predicting what your opponent is going to do, then countering that. If you can predict your opponent is going to jump in with 100% certainty, then yes, you should be rewarded for that. If your opponent is going to keep doing it despite being countered, then shouldn't he be punished for it? Is that not the way fighting game fans see fighting games? Because if so, then yeah I obviously want something very different than them.

As for DP vs. heavy punches, a DP should be a high risk high reward play in the sense that if you miss with it (or misread your opponent), it should leave you wide open. Which it does, because that's how it's balanced. Not because it's hard to pull of in terms of execution. At high levels, everyone will be able to pull it off 100% anyway, so clearly it has to be balanced with that in mind.

And besides, I have no problems doing moves for most characters in games like Tekken and Soul Calibur (plus obviously Brawlhalla as mentioned above), as they don't require complex motions for moves. And these very much are fighting games despite lacking a feature you call essential (high barriers in regards to execution complexity). And Tekken in particular is definitely not an easy game to play at a high level despite its relative lack of execution complexity.
 

Thagirion

Member
Dec 6, 2018
97
there´s no problem in making it easy but SFV took the soul of franchise making it easier, other genres have better the "easy to learn hard to master" SFV you have to watch uber top 1% players to see something going on, most of the online matches is just a replayed flowchart and DBZ is double down on that.

What Fighting games are missing is mechanics and gameplays that make itchy to get better. The eyes of someone overcoming someone they couldnt is powerful and thats what made you thrive back in the arcades, which made the generation of older players who criticise shallow gameplay.
 
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XuandeXun

Member
May 16, 2019
184
If you can predict your opponent is going to jump in with 100% certainty, then yes, you should be rewarded for that. If your opponent is going to keep doing it despite being countered, then shouldn't he be punished for it? Is that not the way fighting game fans see fighting games? Because if so, then yeah I obviously want something very different than them.
Me and you both. This is not the way the majority of the FGC sees fighting games. Mechanical barriers to entry and to mastery are considered a core part of their enjoyment, they see mastering a set mechanical action part of progression, of expanding their options from what they had as a lesser player.

Me, if I want that, I go play a Rhythm or Reflex-based single player game on a harder difficulty than I'm used to playing at. No latency, don't have to leave the house, and I can practice my mechanical dexterity all I want.

In GBVS using the dedicated special button puts your moves on a slower cooldown, nothing too punishing, just 3-5 seconds.

There are ways to penalize doing things the easy way and reward doing things the hard way.
This is missing the point. Some of us don't see why a fighting game has to be as much about balancing through mechanical difficulty as most currently are.

This is like tacking on an Easy or Assist mode, but won't actually be viable once the training wheels come off. Some people want to take a game seriously and, for one reason or another, simply can't do the mechanical part at a consistent enough level to bother.

And no, Guile on 3DS doesn't count. SF2 wasn't balanced around the idea of instant flash kicks and projectiles. But it is possible to make a game from the ground up that is.
 
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Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,486
But like... this is essential to how fighting games work?

If doing a DP was easy and you could pull it off every time, why would anyone ever jump at you??

Not to mention that games have tried to accommodate for this specific scenario anyway. In Street Fighter, DPing a jump in is great, but Ryu's crouching fierce does the same job for less damage. The DP is the difficult, optimal reward for executing under stress.

It's very obvious that we want very different experiences from the genre, and I think that is why we aren't seeing eye to eye here.
In GBVS using the dedicated special button puts your moves on a slower cooldown, nothing too punishing, just 3-5 seconds.

There are ways to penalize doing things the easy way and reward doing things the hard way.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
593
There's a really simple solution to this, include a tournament level difficulty mode where the mechanics are designed around veteran fighters, bundle a special edition of the game with an arcade controller.
 

Altairre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
318
As for DP vs. heavy punches, a DP should be a high risk high reward play in the sense that if you miss with it (or misread your opponent), it should leave you wide open. Which it does, because that's how it's balanced. Not because it's hard to pull of in terms of execution. At high levels, everyone will be able to pull it off 100% anyway, so clearly it has to be balanced with that in mind.
That isn’t at all the case though. People miss inputs all the time even at high level. The amount of time and precision to input the move is part of the balancing. Sajam (FGC commentator) talked about how he still sees the „oh shit I missed my anti-air, I’m gonna dp right after I block the jump-in” at tournaments a lot. If you can read or pick up on that you can integrate that into your strategy and bait it. Obviously not all of these misses are due to missed inputs alone but you sure would see it way less often if you could just hit a button. Hell SonicFox lost a MK11 tournament not too long ago because he fucked up an input in the last round. That’s not to say that I think you shouldn’t try alternative approaches as well but there is a reason why things are how they are.
 

MegaBeefBowl

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,368
It's not essential to how fighting games work as evidenced by how many fighting games are eliminating any motion harder than a hadoken and some going further than that. Having a fundamental tool of a character's moveset off-limits for some people to use due to difficulty in execution is poor game design for a casual and even a competitive mindset. It's why fighting games lag behind Fortnite, and MOBAs, and shooters in terms of sales and active playerbases. Because they have high skill ceilings but low execution barriers (compared to fighting games) that don't rely on things like stupid ass shoryuken motions to execute a basic fundamental move.
Bad game design?? Execution barriers exist in every game. In League of Legends, if a teamfight begins, and a high priority target is too far away, I would have to flash and use a stun that is a skill shot with a chance to miss. Building in Fortnite is unbelievably execution heavy and often requires you to redo all of your keybinds to increase your building time.

A good fighting game has these execution barriers that are even optional most times. The DP vs Heavy Punch for AA is something I brought up before.

I dunno, the way I always had fighting games explained to me is that they are about mind games. About predicting what your opponent is going to do, then countering that. If you can predict your opponent is going to jump in with 100% certainty, then yes, you should be rewarded for that. If your opponent is going to keep doing it despite being countered, then shouldn't he be punished for it? Is that not the way fighting game fans see fighting games? Because if so, then yeah I obviously want something very different than them.

As for DP vs. heavy punches, a DP should be a high risk high reward play in the sense that if you miss with it (or misread your opponent), it should leave you wide open. Which it does, because that's how it's balanced. Not because it's hard to pull of in terms of execution. At high levels, everyone will be able to pull it off 100% anyway, so clearly it has to be balanced with that in mind.

And besides, I have no problems doing moves for most characters in games like Tekken and Soul Calibur (plus obviously Brawlhalla as mentioned above), as they don't require complex motions for moves. And these very much are fighting games despite lacking a feature you call essential (high barriers in regards to execution complexity). And Tekken in particular is definitely not an easy game to play at a high level despite its relative lack of execution complexity.
If you aren't executing the Anti Air, even if you predicted the jump, then he's not being countered. Execution is the second half of mind games.I also think its super off base to say that all people care about are mind games. There is a reason Evo Moment 37 and "Sako Combos" are things that are held in such high regard.


And at a high level, execution errors are happening constantly. nothing is 100%, especially with the stress of a big tournament.

Also Tekken is incredibly difficult in terms of execution. It might be the hardest game in the competitive scene execution-wise.
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
854
  • Easier mechanics will never close the skill gap between casuals and veterans.
  • Easier mechanics ultimately result in shallower, less interesting fighting games.
These two statements specifically summarize my opinion on the matter.
The more time passes, the more i feel like what people are asking for, are two different games.

Some people want to play a fair CPU opponent while going through a story, play with friends and feel like they have control over what they are doing.
Others want a competitive fighting game where the skill ceiling is very high, and they have to learn by cementing skills, slowly, step by step.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,982
I find it kind of interesting that every single fighting game discussion I see online always seems to ignore Brawlhalla. Which looks ugly as hell
I don't even disagree but I think that particular aesthetic is only really considered ugly to people of a certain age, and younger players or people who other grew up with games that look that way aren't the least bit fazed by the art style.

It's not "ugly" the way, say, KOF14 is ugly--it's more akin to NRS games, I suppose, which get excoriated for the way they look even though there are millions of people who are perfectly happy or at least content with that particular visual tack.
 

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
811
If you aren't executing the Anti Air, even if you predicted the jump, then he's not being countered. Execution is the second half of mind games.I also think its super off base to say that all people care about are mind games. There is a reason Evo Moment 37 and "Sako Combos" are things that are held in such high regard.
I'm not saying mind games are all people care about. That's obviously not true, since the premise of this thread is that fighting games need to stop lowering execution barriers. People obviously care about those. It's just that I don't.

And I was trying to say that whenever people try to sell me or other casuals on fighting games, they always talk about how fighting games are unique because of the deep mindgames. Nobody sells casuals on fighting games by telling them that they are about spending months in practice mode doing shoryuken motions. It's not something I want to do, and I guess it's not something most casual players want to do either. Mindgames might not be the only part of current fghting games, but they are the part people point out as the reason for why the genre is different from others out there. Like you say, execution is part of pretty much every genre out there (although certainly not all of them), but competitive mindgames are pretty much only a big thing in fighting games.

So I really can't agree with the idea that casuals don't care about execution. Which might not be what you're saying, but it's what the original video and OP are about. That casuals only care about fancy graphics, not about the gameplay (which includes execution barriers).


Also Tekken is incredibly difficult in terms of execution. It might be the hardest game in the competitive scene execution-wise.
At a super high level, maybe? I honestly don't really know since it's not like I'll ever get that far. KBDs are obviously the biggest execution barrier the game has, but you don't need them at a casual level. And on a keyboard they are honestly easier to me than doing a shoryuken on a controller/stick.

But for casual play, you can learn easy BnB combos in literally minutes to the point where you will never drop them in a match. And moves for most characters are simply direction+button, with some obvious exceptions on a small minority of characters that you don't have to play. To me, it's much more approachable than most 2D fighting games, simply because you can actually do your moves without missing them half of the time. And in terms of combos, the difference between easy and hard ones is much smaller in Tekken than in something like Blazblue, Guilty Gear, or Skullgirls, where if you can't do combos you might as well not play them because you will lose 100% of the time.

Tekken, Soul Calibur and Brawlhalla are basically the only fighters where I feel like I'm actually in control of my character. And this isn't just about random input drops, it's about whether or not I even feel comfortable about my character doing what I want him to do. Compared to something like Blazblue or Guilty Gear, Tekken is way more approachable to new players.

For me, this is a way better approach than most fighting games, and probably the best thing we'll get to reconciling casuals vs. the super hardcore. Make basic moves and combos super easy, but still add in optional execution barriers for the hardcore folk. It's a compromise I think work well, but obviously going by this thread the FGC wants us moving in an opposite direction where everything should be harder.

That isn’t at all the case though. People miss inputs all the time even at high level. The amount of time and precision to input the move is part of the balancing. Sajam (FGC commentator) talked about how he still sees the „oh shit I missed my anti-air, I’m gonna dp right after I block the jump-in” at tournaments a lot. If you can read or pick up on that you can integrate that into your strategy and bait it. Obviously not all of these misses are due to missed inputs alone but you sure would see it way less often if you could just hit a button. Hell SonicFox lost a MK11 tournament not too long ago because he fucked up an input in the last round. That’s not to say that I think you shouldn’t try alternative approaches as well but there is a reason why things are how they are.
At the end of the day, I guess it comes down to if you think this sort of balance moves by making them harder to pull off is good design or not. I don't think it is, but obviously the FGC crowd does. But to be clear, I'm 100% not saying games like that shouldn't exist. If people want hardcore, execution heavy games, that's perfectly fine with me. There's room for more than one type of game in the market after all.

Unlike this thread, which is basically about how easier casual fighting games shouldn't exist because nobody wants them (I want them, at least. And looking at the thread I'm obviously not the only one). And I don't think it would be impossible to design a game that removes execution complexity, so this sort of complexity driven design isn't an essential part of the genre the way some people think it is. And it looks like you agree with that at least.

Plus, like I said above, I'm not even talking about random input drops that happen under stress. Just the barrier of getting to the point where you feel like you're in control of your character is super high in a lot of fighting games. In something like Guilty Gear, I'd spend most of my match just trying to get my character to do what I want time to do, and no real time actually playing the game. Yeah, this is a pretty extreme example because Guilty Gear is deliberately super hard, but it's relevant because the moment ArcSys actually tries to make an easier game (like DBZ which still looked way too hard for me, Or the upcoming Granblue), the hardcore players get angry because the games aren't hard enough.
 

Altairre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
318
At the end of the day, I guess it comes down to if you think this sort of balance moves by making them harder to pull off is good design or not. I don't think it is, but obviously the FGC crowd does. But to be clear, I'm 100% not saying games like that shouldn't exist. If people want hardcore, execution heavy games, that's perfectly fine with me. There's room for more than one type of game in the market after all.

Unlike this thread, which is basically about how easier casual fighting games shouldn't exist because nobody wants them (I want them, at least. And looking at the thread I'm obviously not the only one). And I don't think it would be impossible to design a game that removes execution complexity, so this sort of complexity driven design isn't an essential part of the genre the way some people think it is. And it looks like you agree with that at least.

Plus, like I said above, I'm not even talking about random input drops that happen under stress. Just the barrier of getting to the point where you feel like you're in control of your character is super high in a lot of fighting games. In something like Guilty Gear, I'd spend most of my match just trying to get my character to do what I want time to do, and no real time actually playing the game. Yeah, this is a pretty extreme example because Guilty Gear is deliberately super hard, but it's relevant because the moment ArcSys actually tries to make an easier game (like DBZ which still looked way too hard for me, Or the upcoming Granblue), the hardcore players get angry because the games aren't hard enough.
I do feel like once you have a certain baseline of what you know and are able to do then you'll be able to apply that to most other fighting games. Obviously some have a higher barrier of entry than others but I can generally pick up the new MK, Street Fighter, Tekken or whatever and pull off the basic stuff that you need to get started. After that it's just a question of how deep you want to go and how high you want to climb up the ladder. This is similar to my experience in mobas and those seem to be doing well.

Moreover it doesn't seem like a low execution barrier is enough to sell a fighting game because at the end of the day you will still lose a lot if you play online (and you can't blame your teammates like you can in a moba). It's already been mentioned in this thread a bunch but the license, presentation and the amount as well as the variety of singleplayer content seems to work much better to sell a fighting game regardless of whether it requires the typical amount of execution (like SF, Tekken or MK) or not. It's a niche genre but if you don't have that complexity it tends to affect the longevity of the online component. A lot of these super complicated anime fighters have a small but strong community and you can usually find games even though you'll most likely just get bodied. I'd be interested to see an attempt at a fighting game with high production values in the vein of MK but with a very low execution barrier. It just appears to be a pretty daunting task since a lot of the games that were trying to remove that barrier as much as possible came and went fairly quickly. It doesn't mean it's impossible but I also don't think it'll happen anytime soon. People don't like to lose and there are few games where a skill/knowledge gap can be as frustrating as in fighting games and this will never change, it's just the nature of the genre.

In regards to hardcore players I think it's understandable that they're disappointed when a franchise or a license they hold dear does not have the depth they're looking for to get invested in it but usually I don't see this reaction as "angry" necessarily (obviously there are shitheads in the FGC, that's nothing new).
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,830
I disagree with the idea that simplified gameplay necessarily means a low skill ceiling or no depth.

I also think fighting game's scenes fading so quickly is also in part due to how many new fighting games are released and competing with each other. People feel comfortable moving on when something is new on the horizon and there's always something new nowadays.
That's not an excuse that works with FighterZ when fighting games that came before it are a lot more active in the competitive scene than that game right now.

FighterZ sold way more than those games, too. It had so much hype and excitement surrounding it. If the game didn't falter mechanically and in other ways (such as DLC support), it would be prospering.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,644
Brazil
The gameplay thing totally can be ignored.

You make the same type of game with the same type of gameplay, media cycle everything. It wouldn't sell as well
Its the roster.

The gameplay is great, the roster sells that shit
The roster is not that important. The ultimate roster right now is insane, but an actual smashlike game with an actual budget would absolutely sell well. Maybe not 14 million well but ridiculously well for a fighting game
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,761
There's people who like hard execution and performing combos. Some like doing long combos.

There's people who like the mid range neutral and people who hate it and want to play characters that ignore it.

You're not going to make 1 fighting game that everyone likes.

Im glad SamSho exist to break up the monotony of every fighter centered on rushdown + combos atm.
 

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
811
I do feel like once you have a certain baseline of what you know and are able to do then you'll be able to apply that to most other fighting games. Obviously some have a higher barrier of entry than others but I can generally pick up the new MK, Street Fighter, Tekken or whatever and pull off the basic stuff that you need to get started. After that it's just a question of how deep you want to go and how high you want to climb up the ladder. This is similar to my experience in mobas and those seem to be doing well.
True, but getting to that point is hard. I'm still not really there, and I mush have spent hundreds of hours in various fighting games. Obviously I'm not really that great at fighters, but even so this still seems like a lot of commitment for practically nothing to show for it. Well, that's not really true I guess. Ironically, despite sucking at them, playing so much 2D fighters actually made it pretty easy to actually pick up the basics in Tekken and Soul Calibur. But how many people will just play a couple of 2D fighters (since there's way more of those), get no where with them, then drop the entire genre? I almost did that.

Whereas in a MOBA for example, learning how to move your hero and use abilities is super simple. Click to move, pres qwerty for abilities, done. Obviously all the builds and strategies are complicated, but you can just open up a build guide and follow that. The only reason these games are unnaproachable is because the community will insult you for every super small mistake you make (well, they'll insult you even if you play the game well I guess). The whole genre exists in the first place because people found normal Starcraft/Warcraft to be hard to play, so they played a simplified version instead. And I remember a ton of Warcraft 3 players hating on Dota for being too dumbed down, and yet it's now (and was even back then) one of the biggest genres out there. I do suck pretty hard at MOBAs, but at least I feel in control of my character.

Or in another way, I can spend all day reading about weird strategies in DoTA and get something out of that. I can (and did) read BlazBlue guides all I want, but that's just not going to help if I can't even pull off any of my moves.

Moreover it doesn't seem like a low execution barrier is enough to sell a fighting game because at the end of the day you will still lose a lot if you play online (and you can't blame your teammates like you can in a moba). It's already been mentioned in this thread a bunch but the license, presentation and the amount as well as the variety of singleplayer content seems to work much better to sell a fighting game regardless of whether it requires the typical amount of execution (like SF, Tekken or MK) or not. It's a niche genre but if you don't have that complexity it tends to affect the longevity of the online component. A lot of these super complicated anime fighters have a small but strong community and you can usually find games even though you'll most likely just get bodied. I'd be interested to see an attempt at a fighting game with high production values in the vein of MK but with a very low execution barrier. It just appears to be a pretty daunting task since a lot of the games that were trying to remove that barrier as much as possible came and went fairly quickly. It doesn't mean it's impossible but I also don't think it'll happen anytime soon. People don't like to lose and there are few games where a skill/knowledge gap can be as frustrating as in fighting games and this will never change, it's just the nature of the genre.
Like I said in my initial post, Brawlhalla seems to go directly against this. No license, no big budget, and no singleplayer content. But it does have super easy to pick up gameplay. And it's the most played fighting game on Steam by far. But it always gets ignored in discussions like this. And it being free to play can only go so far in explaining its success when several other f2p fighters have all failed spectacularly, and very few f2p games in general are successful in the first place.

The license helped DBZ sell like crazy initially, but soon after most of the casual playerbase abandoned it. And I don't think that was because the game was too easy, but because it was too hard for casual players who bought it just because they like Dragonball, but still too simple for the hardcore crowd. So in the end you were left with no one playing it.

Particularly for player retention, Brawlhalla seems like the perfect example of how a game being simple actually helps with that. It's simple, but has by far the best player retention I've ever seen in a fighter. I simply can't think of any other fighting game that would still be gaining players years after its launch. I think it's because if a game is simple, it makes it easier for new players to at least somewhat catch up to the experts. And the more new players you get, the easier it is for other newcomers to join in.

Licenses and singleplayer content absolutely help sell games, but they don't seem to do anything for casual player retention. Gameplay does.

No beginner will play Skullgirls or Guilty Gear online when they just instantly lose without knowing what even happened to them. Except due to fighting games being so similar to one another, it's more like you have to catch up to 20 years of experience people have with them even in a game that just launched. All while you're still trying to learn how to do a shoryuken.

And I also hate the "people don't like to lose" explanation. Every competitive online game has winners and losers. And I certainly don't blame my losses in say Rocket League on my teammates. I know most of them are on me. But I still like the game. This makes it sound like team based games are only popular online because everyone that plays them is a sore looser and an asshole (which might be true for MOBAs, but not in general). And besides, you have games like Chess that are incredibly popular despite being 1v1 and despite having a way higher complexity level than any fighting game. But at least in Chess, you don't need to spend 20 hours learning how to pick up and move a piece without dropping it.

In my experience, it's more like "people don't like when they can't see themselves improving". Which makes sense. If you spend 10 hours playing a fighting game without making any progress, you'll obviously quit and go play something where your time investment actually shows results. But you need way more than 10 hours to even get decent at most of them, and until you get past the initial character control hurdle there's really nothing else you can even improve in. And you absolutely can lower this gap, that's the whole point of lowering complexity/execution barriers. You can pick up and start playing Brawlhalla in minutes, no boring lab work required.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,644
Brazil
Got any receipts to back that claimed up or we just spitballing here?
Brawlout and brawhalla are getting constant updates with cameo characters and they have a literal indie budget.
Brawhalla Adventure Time pack was announced at E3.

Cartoon Network Punchtime Xplosion was dogshit and managed to sell enough for an expanded port on consoles (it was originally a 3DS title).

PlayStation All Star Battle Royale is not a direct smash clone, had serious problems in development and balancing and still reached one million faster than SF5.

Even the oldest smash games like meele sold MK10 levels of copies and didn't had the flood of 3rd parties or even half the amount of characters ultimate has
 

Takamura-San

Member
Oct 25, 2017
481
I just threw the ball. Why doesn't always go into the basket? Like, I have the ball in my hand, threw it, and it missed???? I did all this work, mind games, and strategy to get the ball in my hands. Then there's this execution "barrier" of having to aim to the basket. Wish they would fix that.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,885
Okay, I'm not going to watch the video right now, but what exactly does "easier" mean if Granblue Fantasy is being included here?

One button special moves? When that's tied to its cooldown system? What exactly is wrong with that?

There can be a case to be made regarding dumbing down mechanics. But there's also a case to be made about making mechanics overly complex for the sake of it when there's no real purpose for it.
It is strange to see GBVS singled out for being too simple. Using other Arc fighters as examples, something like DBFZ can be faulted for its simplicity as a result of how similar many of its characters are and how single-minded its hyperaggressive gameplay with weak defensive options and little to no neutral is. For something like BBTAG, it still has a lot of dumb, hyperaggressive anime fighter things, but even then it still managed to have significantly more range in playstyle variety than the company's other tag fighter in spite of being simplified.
That's pretty obvious, I mean I'm still surprised that people think otherwise. But fighting games definitely shouldn't be over bloated with mechanics though (looking at Guilty Gear).
The last time Guilty Gear was bloated with mechanics was Accent Core, though. The Xrd games were quite simple by comparison (including relative to where mainline BlazBlue ended up), and now they're thinking of making them more so, though honestly I'd say real or perceived complexity is the least of GG's problems in achieving mainstream appeal.
 
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Nov 18, 2017
549
I disagree with the idea that simplified gameplay necessarily means a low skill ceiling or no depth.
Really? because like it feels to me that theres a direct correlation between depth and complex gameplay.

I mean its not impossible for someone to think outside the box and find hidden mechanics or exploits that maybe werent intended but are totally fun (all the stuff people still play melee for, for example).

But DBFZ got pretty stale fast,you see the same teams, with the same set ups and combos. its great that its got a fairly low input barrier for people to get passed, but the game just lacks any real legs.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,486
I just threw the ball. Why doesn't always go into the basket? Like, I have the ball in my hand, threw it, and it missed???? I did all this work, mind games, and strategy to get the ball in my hands. Then there's this execution "barrier" of having to aim to the basket. Wish they would fix that.
More like you moved your hand and the ball doesn’t even leave. That’s strange, you made a throwing gesture just like the instructions said yet the ball is firmly stuck on your hand.
 

XuandeXun

Member
May 16, 2019
184
I just threw the ball. Why doesn't always go into the basket? Like, I have the ball in my hand, threw it, and it missed???? I did all this work, mind games, and strategy to get the ball in my hands. Then there's this execution "barrier" of having to aim to the basket. Wish they would fix that.
Having to learn how to use a controller is a necessary evil, not something to celebrate because you can use an input device more accurately. When I go to play most games, its because I'm wanting to see how my decisions play out, not because I'm hype to test my hand-eye coordination or to lord it over others who have it worse. If I want to test my hand-eye, I can do that without playing a fighting game or a multiplayer game - I can go play Osu! or any other number of mechanical precision centric games.

Same reason I far prefer Turn Based Strategy to Real Time Strategy. I get judged on my decision making, not my ability to click faster or more accurately to stimuli. Which incidentally is why MOBAs ate RTS's lunch, most of the mortal population can't deal with the steep learning curve, how a player slightly more skilled in a RTS will still win nearly every match. Fighting games have the same problem, and it'll take more than comeback mechanics to solve it.

When I sign up for playing a fighting game, I expect my reflexes and conditioning to get tested. I also expect to have to hit some buttons. But once you've gone past the point where most players can comfortably execute your button commands, without risk of long term injury, then you've lost me.
 
Nov 18, 2017
549
Brawlout and brawhalla are getting constant updates with cameo characters and they have a literal indie budget.
Brawhalla Adventure Time pack was announced at E3.

Cartoon Network Punchtime Xplosion was dogshit and managed to sell enough for an expanded port on consoles (it was originally a 3DS title).

PlayStation All Star Battle Royale is not a direct smash clone, had serious problems in development and balancing and still reached one million faster than SF5.

Even the oldest smash games like meele sold MK10 levels of copies and didn't had the flood of 3rd parties or even half the amount of characters ultimate has
So wait, whats your argument here? you say roster isnt important and then list a bunch of games full of cameos or licenses.

Brawlhalla has an indie budget sure and while its not for me, im glad its found its audience. It seems since they've got a bit of money now, theyre going aftersecuring licensed characters to flesh out its roster. Rayman & Adventure Time. So clearly they recognize that roster is important and going to be the thing that helps them get more players because right now im pretty sure if i asked most of my friends what brawlhalla is very few would know.

PSABR may have done better than SFV at launch but just because it didnt bomb as hard as street fighter did in 2016, doesnt mean it isnt still a bomb. PSABR had the budget but budget alone wasnt enough PSABR bombed due to its lousy roster and poorly thought out mechanics. Ironically i think if theyd just committed and just ripped Smash off entirely, it probably wouldve done a lot better. But it still has a shitty roster.
 

Takamura-San

Member
Oct 25, 2017
481
More like you moved your hand and the ball doesn’t even leave. That’s strange, you made a throwing gesture just like the instructions said yet the ball is firmly stuck on your hand.
Nope, the ball left. Just missed the basket. You practice, and put in the time and eventually you will get the shot. Not executing a hadouken is missing a shot. You tried and it failed. Whatever the character does outside of the hadouken is the equivalent of an airball.

Fighting games is one of the closest videogames to sports. As there's a higher executional barrier to be able to be proficient at it. You go to the court and tell the other players that you want all your throws to counts as baskets because the execution shouldn't count as part of the game. You will be laughed out.
 

XuandeXun

Member
May 16, 2019
184
Nope, the ball left. Just missed the basket. You practice, and put in the time and eventually you will get the shot. Not executing a hadouken is missing a shot. You tried and it failed. Whatever the character does outside of the hadouken is the equivalent of an airball.

Fighting games is one of the closest videogames to sports. As there's a higher executional barrier to be able to be proficient at it. You go to the court and tell the other players that you want all your throws to counts as baskets because the execution shouldn't count as part of the game. You will be laughed out.
You want to be the player. I want to be the coach. That's the difference. Who cares if the coach can make a basket, because that's not what he or she is there for.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,987
The roster is not that important. The ultimate roster right now is insane, but an actual smashlike game with an actual budget would absolutely sell well. Maybe not 14 million well but ridiculously well for a fighting game
There are games that exist now that kinda prove otherwise

Not saying it's impossible, but roster ALWAYS matters damn near the most. Not just for smash. I totally believe a smash type game with amazing design or at least meme potential designs will sell well.

But that's my point, the draw is the roster. It's why certain fighting games excluding key characters often doesn't go well are they are withheld to be guaranteed dlc sales.

The roster is key.

Most people play fighting games to see the cool guy they like punch another cool guy. That's it
 

Takamura-San

Member
Oct 25, 2017
481
You want to be the player. I want to be the coach. That's the difference. Who cares if the coach can make a basket, because that's not what he or she is there for.
Then play a strategy game. Fighting games are not for you. You want to point at a character, say do this, and it does it. You can do that on real time, or turn based on strategy games.

Fighting games are another category of games that is defined by execution since SF. Dunno about karate champ. Never played it.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,486
Nope, the ball left. Just missed the basket. You practice, and put in the time and eventually you will get the shot. Not executing a hadouken is missing a shot. You tried and it failed. Whatever the character does outside of the hadouken is the equivalent of an airball.

Fighting games is one of the closest videogames to sports. As there's a higher executional barrier to be able to be proficient at it. You go to the court and tell the other players that you want all your throws to counts as baskets because the execution shouldn't count as part of the game. You will be laughed out.
Not executing a hadoken is the ball not leaving your hand. Not hitting with a hadoken is a miss throw.

People don’t mind not hitting the goal, but it’s a special kind of frustration seeing that ball not moving at all despite making the gesture.

You see it as a sport, I on the other hand am reminded of a martial art. Practice 100 punches, 100 kicks and 100 blocks BEFORE you can even begin anything interesting. I get it, but boy does it kinda suck.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,885
There are games that exist now that kinda prove otherwise

Not saying it's impossible, but roster ALWAYS matters damn near the most. Not just for smash. I totally believe a smash type game with amazing design or at least meme potential designs will sell well.

But that's my point, the draw is the roster. It's why certain fighting games excluding key characters often doesn't go well are they are withheld to be guaranteed dlc sales.

The roster is key.

Most people play fighting games to see the cool guy they like punch another cool guy. That's it
Hell, the roster was a major factor in why Soul Calibur V almost marked the end for that series, and why the decisions made with SCVI led to a game that sold to Bamco's satisfaction.

Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite omitting X-Men characters and Doom, then having Combofiend talk about "functions" didn't work out for that game either.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,987
Hell, the roster was a major factor in why Soul Calibur V almost marked the end for that series, and why the decisions made with SCVI led to a game that sold to Bamco's satisfaction.
The only fg series to do this successfully is tekken and even tekken 3 one of the greatest most well regarded fg's of all time saw so much backlash they put some characters back in , in sequels like kazuya
 

Quebaz

Member
Nov 15, 2017
134
The license helped DBZ sell like crazy initially, but soon after most of the casual playerbase abandoned it. And I don't think that was because the game was too easy, but because it was too hard for casual players who bought it just because they like Dragonball, but still too simple for the hardcore crowd. So in the end you were left with no one playing it.
Most of the DBZ fanbase who buy these games mostlydo so for their single-player and big roster sizes. FighterZ doesn't have that, and many people went in expecting the game something that it isn't. Hell, it's pre-release days were filled with tons of people who just didn't want FighterZ to be a 2D fighting game in the first place, and admit to only buying it because of the license.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,043
Columbia, SC
The only fg series to do this successfully is tekken and even tekken 3 one of the greatest most well regarded fg's of all time saw so much backlash they put some characters back in , in sequels like kazuya
I think alot of that is due to presentation too. Tekken 3 looked fucking bonkers for its time. The game went to having full 3d backgrounds, and that amazing opening just showing their stuff off.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,559
Also Tekken is incredibly difficult in terms of execution. It might be the hardest game in the competitive scene execution-wise.
Genuine question, as a total casual that plays many fighting games how did it happen that I perceive Tekken 7 with Marshall Law as the easiest fighting game I've ever played? I find it easier than Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur and anything 2D. This is not meant to be snarky and calling you out, I acknowledge that Tekken is supposed to be hard but I wonder what happened in my brain that I can play Tekken 7 easily and struggle with everything else o.o
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,281
Look at how quickly the scene died for DBZ. It has hype moments, sure, but it's simplified gameplay meant there was a low ceiling for options a player could work with. This is one of the reasons the scene dropped so hard.
DBZ's scene died (in relevancy) almost instantly after the incidents with the cancelled tournaments though. It's not like it was a gradual drop due to samey tournaments. There was a big drop almost immediately after those incidents.
 
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Artdayne

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,639
Whereas in a MOBA for example, learning how to move your hero and use abilities is super simple. Click to move, pres qwerty for abilities, done. Obviously all the builds and strategies are complicated, but you can just open up a build guide and follow that. The only reason these games are unnaproachable is because the community will insult you for every super small mistake you make (well, they'll insult you even if you play the game well I guess). The whole genre exists in the first place because people found normal Starcraft/Warcraft to be hard to play, so they played a simplified version instead. And I remember a ton of Warcraft 3 players hating on Dota for being too dumbed down, and yet it's now (and was even back then) one of the biggest genres out there. I do suck pretty hard at MOBAs, but at least I feel in control of my character.
You are talking about the absolute skill floor of the genre, it's like looking up some cool links in Tekken and thinking you know what you're doing. That's arguably the most technical fighter out there and yet it's very easy for casuals to enjoy it.

Even still, I found the movement in MOBAs way more difficult than anything in a fighting game, at least the skill floor. The reason why is because your character feels detached from you given its an isometric perspective and normally the camera is controlled independent of your character so its very easy to lose track of where your character is with all the visual feedback, you get used to it eventually but it's an initial hurdle. At the skill cap there's so much to positioning that is so important it can't be understated.

MOBAs do not exist because they found Starcraft too difficult, they are a completely different genre, you are controlling a hero character and the micro/macro is entirely different. It's much more like an RPG or something where you have power growth throughout the match based on your ability to play. MOBAs easily have some of the highest skillcaps of any game, maybe Starcraft is higher but that's probably it.
 

crazyfunster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,346
I find it kind of interesting that every single fighting game discussion I see online always seems to ignore Brawlhalla. Which looks ugly as hell, has a roster of mostly copy pasted ugly original characters, and zero single player content.
It's solely because Brawlhalla is considered a different genre (A Smasher) by many in the FGC. Smash and fighting games are considered two different genres by many fighting game players.

Genuine question, as a total casual that plays many fighting games how did it happen that I perceive Tekken 7 with Marshall Law as the easiest fighting game I've ever played? I find it easier than Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur and anything 2D. This is not meant to be snarky and calling you out, I acknowledge that Tekken is supposed to be hard but I wonder what happened in my brain that I can play Tekken 7 easily and struggle with everything else o.o
Because Law is an extremely strong character at low levels of play, and isn't as strong as people get better at the game (he's not bad or anything, but he's not mega top tier)
 
Oct 28, 2017
588
Genuine question, as a total casual that plays many fighting games how did it happen that I perceive Tekken 7 with Marshall Law as the easiest fighting game I've ever played? I find it easier than Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur and anything 2D. This is not meant to be snarky and calling you out, I acknowledge that Tekken is supposed to be hard but I wonder what happened in my brain that I can play Tekken 7 easily and struggle with everything else o.o
Law has junkyard and dragontail, which can be spammed to victory at low level play. You also may not have learned how to move properly in Tekken - which is really the primary barrier for intermediate play.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,617
Genuine question, as a total casual that plays many fighting games how did it happen that I perceive Tekken 7 with Marshall Law as the easiest fighting game I've ever played? I find it easier than Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur and anything 2D. This is not meant to be snarky and calling you out, I acknowledge that Tekken is supposed to be hard but I wonder what happened in my brain that I can play Tekken 7 easily and struggle with everything else o.o
Probably because the normal moves are super easy to execute (1 button or 1 button + direction) and even button mashing can be somewhat effective at low level. The difficulty in Tekken comes from movement and knowledge of the gigantic movelist every character have. I suppose you didn't start playing Law knowing all his moves and stances, right? This problem got out of hand in TT2, with 60+ characters to learn, so they cut the roster in T7.
 

mxbison

Member
Jan 14, 2019
1,004
Genuine question, as a total casual that plays many fighting games how did it happen that I perceive Tekken 7 with Marshall Law as the easiest fighting game I've ever played? I find it easier than Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur and anything 2D. This is not meant to be snarky and calling you out, I acknowledge that Tekken is supposed to be hard but I wonder what happened in my brain that I can play Tekken 7 easily and struggle with everything else o.o
Because Tekken 7 nailed the difficulty.

You can have fun and success at all skill levels, and still have plenty of stuff to learn.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,353
Not executing a hadoken is the ball not leaving your hand. Not hitting with a hadoken is a miss throw.

People don’t mind not hitting the goal, but it’s a special kind of frustration seeing that ball not moving at all despite making the gesture.

You see it as a sport, I on the other hand am reminded of a martial art. Practice 100 punches, 100 kicks and 100 blocks BEFORE you can even begin anything interesting. I get it, but boy does it kinda suck.
Yeah, I think the execution barrier to the basic tools in a fighting game are what prove to be aversive. You can imagine how frustrating a FPS game would be if throwing a grenade required a control gesture where failure results in you not even pulling the pin out of it. You find yourself in the perfect position for it, you can execute the strategy/attempt in your mind but not with your thumbs. That's frustration.

I think there's a lot wrong with fighting game controls, with a lot of it inhereted from a different control input. Designing a fighting game from its base concept with the most popular input devices of today wouldn't produce the gestures seen in no other genre of gaming.
 

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
811
Most of the DBZ fanbase who buy these games mostlydo so for their single-player and big roster sizes. FighterZ doesn't have that, and many people went in expecting the game something that it isn't. Hell, it's pre-release days were filled with tons of people who just didn't want FighterZ to be a 2D fighting game in the first place, and admit to only buying it because of the license.
That's what I said, no? It sold like crazy because of the license, but no one who bought it really wanted to play a complicated fighter online. If the game was simpler to get into, more people might have stuck around, although I'm sure the majority would probably quit regardless.

Relying on licenses is a good strategy to sell games, but gameplay seems to me to be the main thing that drives player retention (going by the one fighting game that actually seems to retain players on PC). Which is ultimately what makes fighters hard to get into for new players, that only the hardcore keep playing them. So I can't agree with the idea that gameplay is irrelevant for casual fighting games.

You are talking about the absolute skill floor of the genre, it's like looking up some cool links in Tekken and thinking you know what you're doing. That's arguably the most technical fighter out there and yet it's very easy for casuals to enjoy it.
Exactly. Why do you think I keep bringing up Tekken as an example of a good casual fighting game. Because it's super easy to pick up, unlike almost everything else out there. When even the absolute bottom of the skill floor takes tens of hours to reach like it does in most fighters, I consider that a problem for casual players.

Even still, I found the movement in MOBAs way more difficult than anything in a fighting game, at least the skill floor. The reason why is because your character feels detached from you given its an isometric perspective and normally the camera is controlled independent of your character so its very easy to lose track of where your character is with all the visual feedback, you get used to it eventually but it's an initial hurdle. At the skill cap there's so much to positioning that is so important it can't be understated.
The camera part is a totally legitimate criticism. Which is why some game companies saw that players were struggling with it, then decided to simplify it (like Smite with it's 3rd person camera, or some other ones that just lock the camera to your hero). But try suggesting devs simplify just a single fighting game in a similar way and you get a bunch of people shouting at you or being snarky for even daring to suggest that because it would ruin fighting games as a genre.

MOBAs do not exist because they found Starcraft too difficult, they are a completely different genre, you are controlling a hero character and the micro/macro is entirely different. It's much more like an RPG or something where you have power growth throughout the match based on your ability to play. MOBAs easily have some of the highest skillcaps of any game, maybe Starcraft is higher but that's probably it.
The basic idea of Dota as a Warcraft 3 custom map was to take Warcraft 3, remove all the base building, and limit micro to just a single hero instead of 3 heroes and about 10-20 other units. Heroes like Chen are considered to be the hardest to play because you have to micro multiple units, but in Warcraft 3 that's what you had to do all the time. While also managing your base. Except Chen only has a very small army compared to what you'd have in Warcraft 3, and is missing 2 extra heroes you'd have in Warcraft 3. And then Brood War is even harder and makes Warcraft 3 look super easy in comparison.

And that's not even going into Aeon of Strife, which seemed like a really simple game to play from what little I've played it. Certainly much simpler than Brood War.

MOBAs have evolved drastically since then, and do require a different set of skill than Warcraft. But in terms of purely mechanical complexity, microing 20+ units is simply harder than microing 1.

It's solely because Brawlhalla is considered a different genre (A Smasher) by many in the FGC. Smash and fighting games are considered two different genres by many fighting game players.
That didn't stop the video in the OP using Smash as an example, but never bringing up Brawlhalla despite the fact that it seems like a perfect example for the topic at hand. I get that the game is far too casual for most fighting game fans, and its lack of presence at main FGC event streams makes it easy to miss. But when you're talking about casual fighting games and using Smash as a point of comparison, you kind of have to talk about it I feel like.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,525
That data tells you nothing about sales. Publishers dont give a shit if you buy their game and dont get many achievements or play online, in fact they dont give a shit if you buy the game and throw it in the bin. A sale is a sale and neither an achievement nor number of online players is an accurate measure of sales. An argument about sales with no sales data is an unjustifiable opinion piece and should be treated as such.
I don't necessarily disagree, like you are correct that we do not have access to sales data at Bandai Namco or w/e and we are not privy to their sales strategy, but when the data does show that the majority of those who buy the game do not touch online modes, I don't really think it's a leap to say something like "the majority of people who buy the game do not touch online modes" or "the majority of people who even end up touching the online modes do not bother to achieve even middling ranks in the game" and extend it to "why would someone buy a game for a mode they do not intend to use?"
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
13,758
ITT: There are only two types of players who play fighting games, 99% CASUALS and 1% HARDCORES. The HARDCORES are a lot fewer, but invest 1000x the amount of time per player. Cater to the 1%, please, the unwashed masses don't know what's good for them.

Believe it or not, there's a spectrum between these two extremes.

I tried to play SSB: Melee competitively. I physically couldn't without experiencing significant pain in my wrists, and the lack of diverse controller options (with some of those even getting banned) made me give up on the endeavor. I did also try playing Melee at a more casual level, in the form of frequent 2v2s with dorm mates. It was boring, because I was more invested than the rest of the group, so I wasn't learning much or losing much.

SSB: Brawl offered alternative controls that worked for me. The mechanical skill barrier was lowered, both on the stupid low end (L-canceling) and on the higher end (Wavedashing, most ATs for specific characters). There was enough of an input buffer that using the wireless controller I needed to use wasn't totally screwing me. I ended up engaging with my community at our local arcade scene, which went on to host a lot of Regional and lower level Brawl tournaments, which in turn helped me up my game. I never went full pro (getting out of pools at Regional level was an accomplishment for me), but I was a hell of a lot more invested in getting good at Brawl, because it seemed possible to do. I got to meet and play against players like Dabuz and M2K (even if only in pools or first round bracket), something I never would have been able to do in Melee.

Melee may have been the better Smash game at the very top and bottom levels of play, but for someone like me, Brawl was the better competitive game of the two. I can say that while also saying that Melee is the better game to watch and to learn about for me, just not actually play.

But no, let's go back to arguing about how anyone who isn't showing up for weeklies in a big city is a CASUAL, and CASUALS only want shiny cutscenes and lore. Yes, those people exist, but they are not a monolith just because they're not you, the HARDCORE.
You seem to forget one little detail here. The people you were proud of fighting against like M2K and Dabuz dropped the game soon after, specifically because of it's shallow (and sometimes borderline moronic, like tripping) mechanics.That's the entire point Max makes in his video. What good does it do you to get good at the game when most people who are good at these games find the game boring to play and drop it like a hot potato after a few months.

Melee is a very extreme example of execution barriers. Most of those were not intended in the first place and evolved over the years through a community that stuck with it. The only thing in Brawl that developed was Metaknight getting banned and broken as fuck chaingrabs. It is in no shape or form the healthy middleground for fighting games.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,830
Yeah, I think the execution barrier to the basic tools in a fighting game are what prove to be aversive. You can imagine how frustrating a FPS game would be if throwing a grenade required a control gesture where failure results in you not even pulling the pin out of it. You find yourself in the perfect position for it, you can execute the strategy/attempt in your mind but not with your thumbs. That's frustration.

I think there's a lot wrong with fighting game controls, with a lot of it inhereted from a different control input. Designing a fighting game from its base concept with the most popular input devices of today wouldn't produce the gestures seen in no other genre of gaming.
Then I guess we'll see how people with this issue respond to Granblue Fantasy Versus and its one-button special moves. Rising Thunder was gone too soon to properly gauge it.