I think they just want challenging games, and are expressing their opinion. Don't really think it's about being a good deal for developers or whatever.
Haha for real. Daisuke was riding a wave making a MOBA way before dota fever hit
Haha for real. Daisuke was riding a wave making a MOBA way before dota fever hit
No matter how accessible a fighting game is you still need to practice a ton which casuals are not willing to do. Most will stop if they lose more than they win and since FGs don't really have 'small victories' like kills in FPS games they will never feel good about losses.
You don't have to practice or train to get the hang of battle royals games, and the progression system means you move up in level and rank without winning
This has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread. A BR has random elements that you can pin your loss on: Oh I just didnt find the right guns. You may have teammates: Oh my teammates sucked. And even then you have 99 other people who lost along with you so youre not alone. The comparison does not work in the slightest.
DBFZs main issue was simply just not enough proper support post release by ASW and not continuing the momentum it had. And this day and age, FGs can live or die by how well they are supported by their developers. Gone are the days of Melee and MVC2/MVC3 when developers can release a game and hope that a community can carry the game on their backs alone. Too many other fighting games with bigger bases, sponsorship and developer support vying for player time and efforts.Has there been a drop off in active players as quick as DBFZ? Despite an immense brand loyalty and some more casual gameplay mechanics it seems like a lot of people just bailed. It might not even just be about winning, and also due to other types of games having more social appeal in their friend circles.
DBFZs main issue was simply just not enough proper support post release by ASW and not continuing the momentum it had. And this day and age, FGs can live or die by how well they are supported by their developers. Gone are the days of Melee and MVC2/MVC3 when developers can release a game and hope that a community can carry the game on their backs alone. Too many other fighting games with bigger bases, sponsorship and developer support vying for player time and efforts.
Game was engaging and popular enough in its first year that it was well worth Namco/ASW to follow up but weird decisions involving tournament organization, miscommunication on world tour and inconsistent DLC release schedule really put a damper on the momentum. Not to mention the staunch stubbornness over not fixing some of the games key issues like Super Dash and online that left players sour and on to other games like Smash U.
And I speak as someone who spent most of the year playing and enjoying DBFZ. Game had mad potential but it was squandered. Skill ceiling in games can be raised with minor tweaks and there is enough juice in DBFZ to be a long term competitive game... But ASW wont do anything about it and thus it is no longer worth my time investing in it.
There'll always be a casual drop off. That's fine. People will buy games, even "live service games," play them for a period of time and move on. That's any game out there. But what isn't fine is when the drop-off is significant for the playerbase as a whole.Those points are apt for a drop competitively, but the casual drop off might have more to do with what I was talking about. Like buying a game because its Dragon Ball and it looks visually amazing, but then they play it and discover/remember that fighting games might just not be their cup of tea no matter how accessible they seem.
The casual drop off doesnt seem all that bad, game sold well and has had ok enough legs later on.Those points are apt for a drop competitively, but the casual drop off might have more to do with what I was talking about. Like buying a game because its Dragon Ball and it looks visually amazing, but then they play it and discover/remember that fighting games might just not be their cup of tea no matter how accessible they seem.
The casual drop off doesnt seem all that bad, game sold well and has had ok enough legs later on.
Also the DBFZ drop off was strictly from a competitive point of view. 2 thousand players at a tournament doesn't compare to the 2+ million people who actually bought the game. Based on online numbers, enough players still seem to be playing the game... It's not like it's wasteland out there.
Also not just DBFZ but BBxT and SC6 also have a similar issue where they have dropped due to lack of foreseeable support as a commonly cited reasoning. Drop isnt as sharp because these games weren't as big initially but it's still quite noticeable. And no one here is going to argue that BBxT is a simple FG.
I feel it's reallt important to note that player depth still exists within simpler and homogenized stuff. If anything being creative with a less complicated tool kit requires a lot of player skill and footsies, but different story. I will also say that the sentiment of "DBZ is new marvel" was carried well into its lifecycle. MVCI definitely deserved some flack, but seeing the game that was pushed as it's killer/forced down folks throats as it's killer turn into what it did is very disheartening.
If they want to appeal to
Casuals/New players: They need some good solo content, nice graphics, easy inputs, a popular IP
To the FGC: Good mechanics, interesting characters, depth, new content through the years
A good Esport scene: A lot of money on the table and a Pro Tour (pro players), a fun game to watch (viewers)
I ultimately think it's a shame that the discussion gets hung up at execution complexity because I think it's a gigantic roadblock that keeps a lot of people from experiencing the more interesting complexity.
I'm a good example of this. I've been playing fighting games off and on for 30 years but I often still have issues nailing stuff like double hadoukens.
I like looking up frame data, learning what normals work in different situations, etc. But because I can't properly punish because I whiff on mechanical execution the rest of the interesting complexity barely matters. And now I have less time, so the problem feeds in on itself.
I don't think they need to make it easier, but fighting games SHOULD put in an expansive tutorial that outlines literally every single mechanic of the game. It'd be a fine compromise between those who want to play the game hardcore and those who play it casually but want to understand the mechanics better.
I just wish more fighting games simplified user input. Not everything has to be Super Smash Bros, but memorization of combo strings and special moves is the worst part of the fighting game experience.
I think Max makes a great point in his video about how fighting games need progression like other super popular genres. RPGs for example have a very easy to quantify progression with regards to levels and equipments and numbers getting bigger, and this is why you see so many RPG or RPG "lite" elements like levels and gear popping into other genres, fighting games included.
The difference is that for fighting games the progression loop isn't so easily quantifiable as "I got some better loot" or even "I leveled up," it's "I won with a new character" or "I finally pulled off that tricky combo." Adding stuff like levels and new moves and gear are just adding on a different type of progression onto what you're actually doing, and I doubt you're going to see the "scene" grow from that or see that translate into a growing market with growing sales.
To put it another way, people went crazy for CoD not specifically because of perks or killstreaks, but because getting better at shooting people while not getting shot (specifically CoD's low TTK, quick feedback, skirmish-style gameplay) was really, really addictive and engaging, and fighting games need something like that: gameplay that you feel like you're clearly getting better at and more importantly can continue getting better at.
That's the crux of people not wanting mechanics simplified: simplifying mechanics ends up hurting progression because, even if the skill gap was no longer there, you've ended up limiting how far novice players can progress themselves. Imagine a multiplayer shooter where every gun type does the same damage, or an MMO with just DPS/Tank/Healer as the class types. Even if they're fun to play they're inherently limited in terms of replay and variety, and those are the mainstays of building your base and generating future interest.
They poisoned SFV itself, but grinding progression in fighting games? Nah. MK11 has 4 different kinds of currencies people can grind, with an extensive loot system. It's basically what 80% of the playerbase always talks about; not even the actual fighting.I thought Street Fighter V attempted to put in a progression loop with Fight Money but it seems people really hated "grinding". I think Capcom poisoned the well by releasing SFV so barebones that people feel like they're entitled to FM to "make up" for the lack of content.
They poisoned SFV itself, but grinding progression in fighting games? Nah. MK11 has 4 different kinds of currencies people can grind, with an extensive loot system. It's basically what 80% of the playerbase always talks about; not even the actual fighting.
I thought Street Fighter V attempted to put in a progression loop with Fight Money but it seems people really hated "grinding". I think Capcom poisoned the well by releasing SFV so barebones that people feel like they're entitled to FM to "make up" for the lack of content.
I thought Street Fighter V attempted to put in a progression loop with Fight Money but it seems people really hated "grinding". I think Capcom poisoned the well by releasing SFV so barebones that people feel like they're entitled to FM to "make up" for the lack of content.
This isn't true at all, what do you mean? You must be talking about post-AE when they destroyed FM gain. When it started, the vast majority of FM was gained through Survival mode. That net you a lot of FM by just going through simple AI opponents with each character.The fight money was badly implemented because only rewarded the more experienced players, and even then the fight money awarded for each win was ridiculously low.
How do you expect to retain the casual crowd if the first dozen or hundred of matches they are gonna get beaten and won't get anything in return? They'll look at other games, like Overwatch or any other game with similar reward models and drop SFV.
This isn't true at all, what do you mean? You must be talking about post-AE when they destroyed FM gain. When it started, the vast majority of FM was gained through Survival mode. That net you a lot of FM by just going through simple AI opponents with each character.
Then the Story Mode came along, which also net you a large amount of FM for completing it (I forget if they affected the FM gain from Story mode or not; they probably did).
Then Missions, where you'd have 6,000 FM - 7,500 FM gained every week by completing mindless tasks. There were also tournament "missions," where you could fulfill tasks online when a CPT event was going on which would get you about 10k FM.
They stopped all of this, I guess because of the complaints and because they didn't want people getting a bunch of content for free. But playing actual matches for them was always, by far, the slowest way to gain FM (outside of the one time they had a double FM weekend in 2016). It's only the single player content which gave you the FM you needed.
I suppose I didn't consider Survival Mode on Normal being one of the things for experienced players, but I suppose that can be true. Well, Easy would still get you a lot for each character, and then there were the individual Story chapters per character, etc. Really, before they removed all of the ways of gaining FM, there was a lot to do to gain it, but those tasks weren't necessarily entertaining.This idea becomes incredibly sketchy when you realize only 25% of players manage to beat survival mode(On normal)
I don't think they need to make it easier, but fighting games SHOULD put in an expansive tutorial that outlines literally every single mechanic of the game. It'd be a fine compromise between those who want to play the game hardcore and those who play it casually but want to understand the mechanics better.
I suppose I didn't consider Survival Mode on Normal being one of the things for experienced players, but I suppose that can be true. Well, Easy would still get you a lot for each character, and then there were the individual Story chapters per character, etc. Really, before they removed all of the ways of gaining FM, there was a lot to do to gain it, but those tasks weren't necessarily entertaining.
Its too much work to type out all over again but I made a brief rundown here.
I didn't mention specifics like how nobody likes the buffering system in Ultimate or how floaty the characters are because im not trying to put other games down there, but when you say it has as much depth you're going to have a lot of people correcting you. I truly believe the skill ceiling for Melee might be the highest of any competitive game, but even the fundamental parts of the gameplay such as the general physics or the less simplified recoveries are significantly deeper than the other games in the series.
but again that probably costs a lot of money and the genre simply isn't hitting like that to get said money all the time.
that IS the Fighting game experience... you shouldnt just be able to mash square and get a victoryI just wish more fighting games simplified user input. Not everything has to be Super Smash Bros, but memorization of combo strings and special moves is the worst part of the fighting game experience.
Nah. Memorization of long combo strings and overly complex execution isn't the main fighting game experience. The main fighting game experience is footsies. Defense. Anti-airs. Neutral. Mind games. That's the foundation.that IS the Fighting game experience... you shouldnt just be able to mash square and get a victory