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FIA Formula One 2019 |OT| Oil Mining vs. Energy Drinks vs. Big Tobacco, pick your poison
- Thread starter Aiii
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That's quite the hot take there. They lost the 2010 title due to Red Bull having 2 cars to strategize with and Ferrari only having the chance to cover one of the options, which then backfired. In 2012 Alonso had a megalead in the championship before losing it all to the Lotus drivers (Grosjean causing chaos in Spa and Kimi hitting Alonso in Japan). The power unit has been Mercedes ground but after a difficult start Ferrari became 3rd best team, then 2nd best team by 2016, then went fairly close to the title in 2017 with an inferior car, then lost it in 2018 mainly due to Vettel shenanigans with more or less equal machinery (ahead on multiple tracks but behind on various others and definitely behind in the last third of the season). They had a lot of strategic errors, too, but I'd argue anybody had them (even Mercedes had a lot of surprising ones these years), and most of the years Ferrari had one driver in the top 3 positions and the other well behind (Massa first then Raikkonen), so they often had to try and cover for different strategies or having to invent something different to come out on top. Sometimes it worked brilliantly (see Bahrein last year), other times not so much (yesterday).
Again, if Ferrari is shameful and has to retire from F1, where does this leave teams that are behind in the points like Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Renault, and so on? Or in general, anybody but Mercedes anyhow?
Ferrari isn't like the other teams. Ferrari should fight for the win every year. These last 10 years have been terrible.
Ferrari accepted stupid rules , lost big talents ( Costa , Sassi , Allison , Fry , Tombazidis and many more ) and it's a shadow of what it was from 97 to 2007.
It's actually embarassing see how bad they are and i'm italian so it's even harder for me to say these things. The management doesn't want to invest enough money ? I'm ok with that but then you need to leave the sport. You either do everything you can to win or nothing. There isn't a middle ground for a company like Ferrari.
Investments aren't the issue. And again, they went close to winning titles in multiple occasions. Yes, this is not the 1997-2007 Ferrari anymore, but as in all sports teams go up and down all the time. McLaren and Williams are nowhere to be seen, either, and those teams should also be winning left and right. Only 1 team wins at the end of the year, and this era has been enormously profitable for Mercedes (they've done the best job and a lot of rule changes favoured them immensely), with Ferrari clearly being the second best of the era (the only team that managed to get close to the title - twice, even). They lost talent, sure, every team does at one point. They accepted stupid rules - well, most teams did, and the state of F1 right now is everyone's responsibility equally. These 2 mindblowing races back-to-back don't suddenly hide the fact that FIA has handled this decade of Formula 1 horribly, and yet Ferrari and Red Bull were the only teams consistently close to the top in it. Their management needs some work, but problems create problems, and when you don't have the fastest car it also becomes harder to get the best engineers and technicians from going to you instead of Mercedes or whoever's dominating.
Ferrari was here, is here, and will be here. They may not have won a title since 2008, but they've been very consistently close to the top, sometimes even having the best car. It's not exactly the Todt-Brawn-Schumacher era, but Ferrari has been in far darker spots (80s-90s) and they always rebounded somehow. This era probably ends without a Ferrari title too, shit happens, but they have a solid team right now, two of the best drivers out there (Vettel's recent mistakes don't suddenly demote him outside of the top 5 drivers, that would be asinine to think), the budget's still there and so are the motivations and the engineers. They are, like others, working on the next era's car probably, trying to make sure it's the best package out of the gate. Nobody knows if it will be, but I don't feel that the issue is lack of trying or having the wrong people.
A solid team? Are we watching the same season? The car has the same problems of the first race. They improved the situation a bit with a better setup understanding but nothing more.
RB in the race trim is now ahead a by an important margin. Investment and decision making are totally the issue because with idiots such as Elkann and Camilleri who don't give a single fuck about winning in F1 you will never see Ferrari at the top again.
Ferrari of 97- 2007 was born because the management used F1 as a way to improve brand power and recognition and gave all the resources needed to Montezemolo. What did he do ? He hired the best talents available in the sport. Ferrari in the these years only lost talents.
Costa went to Mercedes , Sassi went to Mercedes , Allison went to Mercedes , Tombazidis works for FIA now ( and hates ferrari ) , Resta to Alfa ( he will back to ferrari to build the 2021 apparently tho ) etc... These are TOP TIER talents that you lost to your main competitor.
What about the political weight of Ferrari which is close to 0 right now ? Do you think is a coincidence ? It's because the Ferrari / Exor management is not interested. The reason? Ferrari market value reached all time high in these last few weeks and the brand is considered one of the most powerful in the world. So why in the blue hell they should invest more in F1 business?
Lewis is very fast ( especially at Silverstone )
Bottas is an average driver
Bottas probably thought a decent lap with the soft would have been good enough
I think that you're probably being too generous towards them. I started watching F1 in the late 80's and from then until the Schumacher years they weren't very good. Post Schumacher they've struggled with consistency.
Ferrari is the most successful , famous and important F1 team of all time.
They struggled after Schumi left because Brawn left , then Todt left , then Byrne left etc... If you don't have the best employees you can't win. It's really telling that no one of the top engineers in F1 is working for Ferrari.
In fact in 2017 and 2018 Ferrari engineers have made a miracle. Building a car able to at least compete with Mercedes with the current rules ? Unreal and people really didn't realize that. But you are Ferrari so that is not enough because you should be the benchmark.
My point was that saying Ferrari should always be fighting for the championship purely because they're Ferrari is a bit of wish fulfillment. As you point out there's a lot of people involved in making a team a success and there's no guarantee that they'll always be with the biggest team.
It'd be great to see them fighting consistently at the front again and, touch wood, the past couple of years have seen definite improvements but alas heritage doesn't mean anything in this sport.
Yes. It's clearly a miracle that Ferrari are so competitive with the current revenue agreement being totally skewed against them
/s
It's more or less the only reason why they are still in F1 in my opinion.
Sports would be horrible to watch if the richest team would win every single trophy until they no longer are the richest.
F1 without Ferrari would be a great shame but if we want to see a more competitive sport (amongst other things) we need fairer sharing of the prize money, and if the teams continue to be involved in decision making, each team should have equal power and I can't see Ferrari agreeing to either of those.
Historically, the governing body agreeing to a heritage payout and veto indicates F1 really wants them to stick around. But new world, new owners, will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Historically, the governing body agreeing to a heritage payout and veto indicates F1 really wants them to stick around. But new world, new owners, will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
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The red of Ferrari is the blood that they've drained from all their drivers.
Because he's very good at race strategising. He picked up on the 1 stop when Mercedes was convinced by the 2 stop.
Who would have thought he's not just instinctually quick but also extremely smart?
This happens frequently. He constantly makes his own strategy decisions.
That set had done 3 laps, including 2 cool-down laps... and he raced about 6-7 additional laps with them (he did the fastest lap on the 5th lap on those tyres). He thought he had the FL in the bag...
Ugh. If he races hard that's good and awesome, if someone else does is because they're sore due to past results not favouring them. Cool.
I know, I was just correcting NHale saying that BOT was on "fresh" softs. My point was that this Lewis guy is kinda alright at this whole driving thing. :P
Yes he (BOT), thought he had done enough and was surprised by HAM.
BOT:"I was surprised that with the hard tyre at the end he could do a lap like that, Obviously the hard tyre was very solid."
Edit... Bottas going all captain obvious with his comments. Heh.
It was like they'd cut to a totally different part of the race, when the camera changed and Leclerc was ahead I was genuinely confused for a moment.
Sensationalism journalism and taken out of context. Max and the reporter were joking back-and-forth and this was one of the comments, it was all said in jest.
We get it, you don't like the guy; you have not been particularly subtle about it. But stop trying to create something out of nothing.
It's funny I was watching the 2011 Canadian GP for the first time a couple weeks ago, and when Vettel spun out at at the end fighting with Button, Brundle was going on about how it was 'so uncharacteristic for Vettel!'
That was way before Vettel fucked up that often when put under pressure, granted he was definitely mistake prone, but he wasn't put under pressure that often. Now he's definitely known to be a mess.
Right, exactly, but it's one of those things that really stands out in retrospect. A sign of things to come.
The fact that commentators and 'experts' still say that their surprised when Vettel fucks up blows my mind. Dude fucks up every third race.
I'm starting to think he qualifies behind Hamilton on purpose at times.
"Can't spin getting passed by Hamilton if he doesn't have to pass you."
Once Red Bull adjusted the deployment strategy later in the race Max breezed past the leading Ferrari. Leclerc on the other hand with this supposedly mighty Ferrari engine and DRS didn't even look like getting by that scrub Gasly on the straights.
Honda in race trim is currently the better of the two. Better fuel efficiency / power.
He's not the same driver he was when he had all the confidence in the world and winning championships.
He literally threw away the championship last year.
Can we stop doing this?
He finished the season like 80 points behind Hamilton. He could have won Hockenheim and Baku and still would've finished behind.
It still has one of my favourite fan-made season videos:
Possibly my favourite roster of drivers that year too?
Those weren't his only mistakes, though. There was also the crash in France and the spins in Monza, Suzuka, Austin... If he had maximised his season, he definitely could have won, or at the very least fought for the championship until the last race.
So, this is my first time properly following a season, when should we expect to hear more on driver trades and new contracts?
Why would people stop?
Seriously? I get why Vettel can't acknowledge what happened, but what is it out there preventing so many fans from living with this as the realistic consensus.
- https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/i...he-verge-fifth-title-how-f1-2018-looks-errors
- https://www.goodwood.com/grr/race/modern/2018/10/seven-key-errors-that-have-cost-vettel/
- https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/2521/how-costly-vettel-s-2018-mistakes-have-been/
- https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/19942
- https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/11/01/how-sebastian-vettel-lost-the-championship/
Mark Hughes (Motor Sport Magazine) said:
And still it continues on with much of the pressure off. The point is even beside disputing what it takes to drag some hypothetical driver across the line. Even taking the car as far as reasonable contention would probably be enough to earn everybody's plaudits. It's more that this was a ridiculous clown show from somebody with the rare privilege to participate in a title fight, leaving little room for benefit of the doubt. He blew himself out of the water, in a car with flawless reliability and a package most experts judged to be on par with the Mercedes or better. Really, the benefit of the doubt is owed to those drivers not fortunate enough to be positioned and allowed to fail in this manner.
Usually we start hearing rumours or a couple of confirmations around the Hungarian GP, just before the summer break.
I have no idea why people can't accept that Merc had the better car with the better driver last year (just like 2017). And how on earth should Vettel have won Monza when Merc had the far better race pace? I'm not a big fan of Vettel but I hate how the english speaking press has a hate boner for him, just like they had for Rosberg when he was still active. It's only ever the english speaking community that goes and on about Vettels 4 underserved titles which he apparently got in a car that was at least 10 seconds faster per lap.
Seriously, I never read anything remotely similar about Hamilton in the last 5 years.
Yeah, people who claim Vettel should have cakewalked 2017 are out of their fucking minds. In 2018 Ferrari was superior in about half the races, he lost a lot of points due to his own doing but also plenty outside of his control, and finished with a huge margin that would not have been cancelled even if he didn't botch Baku and Germany. The only realistic title chance Vettel had these years is 2018, and even to pull that off it would have taken some Alonso 2012 levels of driving 110% out of your car every weekend and not putting a foot wrong. Hamilton is driving practically flawlessly these days bar small and insignificant errors and a couple meh starts, neither of which really costed a whole lot all around, and is doing so in the best car. There is no driver on the grid that could realistically beat those odds, and if we look at the past years only maybe Alonso could have pulled it off. Vettel's 2018 and 2019 campaign have been disappointing to an extent (a surprising amount of errors and a lack of pace sometimes this year too), but claiming he'd be 6 times champion without the errors is history revisionism at its finest.
Mercedes can literally have any driver on the grid sitting in that car, there's a reason they've chosen Hamilton and agreed to pay his massive fee. If a driver in the fastest machine winning championships bothers you then you're watching the wrong sport.
How are any of Hamilton's less earned than Vettel's 2013 WDC for example?
He is one of those legends that I wish I got to see race. Every time I hear a story or about an ex driver talk about him he sounds like he was one of the top talents that died way too early.
If you should ever make your way to the Hockenheimring for some reason, make sure to visit his memorial.
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