FIA Formula One 2020 |OT| 2019 Part 2: A season so nice they did it twice

nekkid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,224
For all their investment in marketing via sports built on carbon-neutral mobility (sailing, cycling) there’s no hiding that Ineos’ core business is digging up dead dinosaurs to burn. And Mercedes extending their partnership rubs me the wrong way. As if we needed any more evidence than F1 will never shake free of the fossil fuel money.
 

unicornKnight

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,021
Athens, Greece
For all their investment in marketing via sports built on carbon-neutral mobility (sailing, cycling) there’s no hiding that Ineos’ core business is digging up dead dinosaurs to burn. And Mercedes extending their partnership rubs me the wrong way. As if we needed any more evidence than F1 will never shake free of the fossil fuel money.
F1 is investing where the car industry is. When the industry is ready to move on from fossil fuel, so will F1. But we already had enough whining when moving to V6 Turbo era. Imagine going the Formula E way.
 

nekkid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,224
F1 is investing where the car industry is. When the industry is ready to move on from fossil fuel, so will F1. But we already had enough whining when moving to V6 Turbo era. Imagine going the Formula E way.
By far and away the biggest investments in technology in the automotive industry are in electrification.
 

FairyEmpire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,191
F1 is investing where the car industry is. When the industry is ready to move on from fossil fuel, so will F1. But we already had enough whining when moving to V6 Turbo era. Imagine going the Formula E way.
People always whine at every single change. Compared to the limitless limitless tech of the 70's and the endless spending of the early 00's, Formula 1 is nothing like it used to be, and looking at the numbers it seems to be surviving just fine. If Formula 1 turns fully electric one day, people will moan for a while then it will become the normality like every other change before. Because 99.99% are in for the speed, the side-by-side action, the thrills, the crashes. The cars could be fueled by the drivers' own sweat they generate during the race for all they care, as long as they blast 300kph+ on the straights most people will stick around.
 

unicornKnight

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,021
Athens, Greece
People always whine at every single change. Compared to the limitless limitless tech of the 70's and the endless spending of the early 00's, Formula 1 is nothing like it used to be, and looking at the numbers it seems to be surviving just fine. If Formula 1 turns fully electric one day, people will moan for a while then it will become the normality like every other change before. Because 99.99% are in for the speed, the side-by-side action, the thrills, the crashes. The cars could be fueled by the drivers' own sweat they generate during the race for all they care, as long as they blast 300kph+ on the straights most people will stick around.
I agree with that, I don't want to keep burning fuels either but that's a general issue with car industry right now. If we can switch to electro engines or other green fuels and keep the performance I'm perfectly fine.
 

jey_16

Member
Oct 28, 2017
518
The red on that livery ruins it but probably worth it considering the amount of cash they are getting
 

chuckddd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
Lol. Bitching about sponsorship? You'll take anyone willing to plunk down the cash to be on the car and you'll like it. *cough* Rich Energy *cough*
 

deprecated

Member
Apr 15, 2019
708
Looks pretty shiny in these shots

I know this is the hottest of takes, but Mercedes has one of the worst liveries. All the mini stars embedded in the paint make it look weird up close. I also wish they'd bring back the white. I think that with the green and black would look stellar.

/opinion
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
Chesire, UK
At least they've gotten rid of the turquoise smear this year.

Gradients look fucking shit on liveries, so the solid turquoise stripe and hard silver/black transition is a huge improvement.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,991
Marc Priestley still doing amazing videos.

Legit the first time I watched Marc was for F1 car launches.
So seeing him still doing it a year later is nice, good on him.

 

Peek-a-boo!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,919
Woodbridge
Urgh.

I go one week without reading anything about F1, only for find out that Mercedes:

  • Willingly accepted an extended contract with one of the most pro-Brexit business person alive.
  • Thus, making you realise that Mercedes are not going to be greenest of companies with Ineos’.
  • And it feels like Hamilton is going to end his career elsewhere, no matter what Toto Wolff says.

Just my two cents.

On the subject of "best driver" I think this analysis from a redditor is pretty much the best I've seen:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/11/22/the-f1metrics-top-100/

It's biased towards modern drivers because of improved training standards, but comparing between drivers of the same era I think it does pretty well.
Probably the most interesting thing I have read about F1 for a while. Thank you for sharing!

The top seven are indisputably the greatest drivers across all eras ... 🏎

  1. Michael Schumacher (2000-2002)
  2. Jackie Stewart (1969-1971)
  3. Fernando Alonso (2012-2014)
  4. Juan Manuel Fangio (1953-1955)
  5. Alberto Ascari (1950-1952)
  6. Jim Clark (1962-1964) — I have newfound respect for him after watching the superb ‘The Grand Tour’ segment that Richard Hammond presented a couple of years ago, especially with Lotus.
  7. Lewis Hamilton (2017-2019)
 

graemebuchan

Member
Mar 29, 2019
94
Very hard to argue with that top 7 for sure. It was a great article and a very interesting read. Hopefully Alonso can come back in 2021 so we can see him and Hamilton fight it out one last time too :)
 

Sec0nd

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
743
Very hard to argue with that top 7 for sure. It was a great article and a very interesting read. Hopefully Alonso can come back in 2021 so we can see him and Hamilton fight it out one last time too :)
I jumped in F1 too late to see Alonso performing. All I witnessed of him were poor results at McLaren and his incredible winey reactions. So it'd love to see where the praise comes from.
 

FairyEmpire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,191
I jumped in F1 too late to see Alonso performing. All I witnessed of him were poor results at McLaren and his incredible winey reactions. So it'd love to see where the praise comes from.
His 2010 and 2012 season had him driving what was occasionally the fastest car, but much more often the 2nd or even the 3rd fastest car, regularly to insane results, both times narrowly missing out on the title against far superior machinery. His 2012 campaign, in particular, was basically perfect, and was unlucky to lose a 40 point lead due to a double retirment between Spa and Monza: the first he had 0 fault in, the second too being a racing incident too.

Or 2011. Spain comes to mind: he got lapped that race, so far behind that Ferrari was in terms of pure pace. He outstarted the grid however and led the first stint, accumulating the rest of the gap after the pitstop.

Or to go farther back, check out Hungary 2006. Started in the back of a grid of a rainy race for a penalty, in a couple laps he was already challenging the leaders.

There's many, many cases one can think of, even outside of Formula 1: he won the 24 Hours of Le Mans on his first try with a stellar pace, he fought for the win leading for many laps and having the fastest average laptime on his first Indy500 attempt, with the race ending with an engine failure for him.

Talent like Alonso doesn't come 'round often. In modern F1 I would say only Michael Schumacher was more capable at extracting race-winning performance from cars that are far from being the best (1997 comes in mind). The reason why Hamilton tends to fare lower in such lists is because he did come with a bombastic debut (2007-2008 were incredible), but his next seasons were very much hit or miss. In the case of 2010 and 2012 that I mentioned for Alonso, Hamilton actually had a better car than Alonso most of the time, and yet ended up below between often inferior pace and errors (although he did stay in the title fight himself for long). Hamilton's most perfect/dominant seasons came when he had a car that were miles beyond anyone else, or at least on par with the opposition.

Likewise, this is why you don't see Vettel in the top 7: bombastic debut, became a machine by like 2013 when he would barely make an error with his unbeatable machinery, but he crumbled a lot under pressure in years where it wasn't clear cut. Hell, he almost lost 2010 and 2012 despite having a dominant car, and in 2018 he had a legit shot at the title only to start accumulating big errors around the middle of the season and not truly recovering since.

Alonso was regularly destroying his teammates, constantly scoring far higher than his car would suffice. For many years he was voted as the best driver in F1 by team principals as well, even in seasons like 2011 where Vettel dominated. There's a reason for that, and you only really need to look at what others did in his same machinery.
 

Sec0nd

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
743
His 2010 and 2012 season had him driving what was occasionally the fastest car, but much more often the 2nd or even the 3rd fastest car, regularly to insane results, both times narrowly missing out on the title against far superior machinery. His 2012 campaign, in particular, was basically perfect, and was unlucky to lose a 40 point lead due to a double retirment between Spa and Monza: the first he had 0 fault in, the second too being a racing incident too.

Or 2011. Spain comes to mind: he got lapped that race, so far behind that Ferrari was in terms of pure pace. He outstarted the grid however and led the first stint, accumulating the rest of the gap after the pitstop.

Or to go farther back, check out Hungary 2006. Started in the back of a grid of a rainy race for a penalty, in a couple laps he was already challenging the leaders.

There's many, many cases one can think of, even outside of Formula 1: he won the 24 Hours of Le Mans on his first try with a stellar pace, he fought for the win leading for many laps and having the fastest average laptime on his first Indy500 attempt, with the race ending with an engine failure for him.

Talent like Alonso doesn't come 'round often. In modern F1 I would say only Michael Schumacher was more capable at extracting race-winning performance from cars that are far from being the best (1997 comes in mind). The reason why Hamilton tends to fare lower in such lists is because he did come with a bombastic debut (2007-2008 were incredible), but his next seasons were very much hit or miss. In the case of 2010 and 2012 that I mentioned for Alonso, Hamilton actually had a better car than Alonso most of the time, and yet ended up below between often inferior pace and errors (although he did stay in the title fight himself for long). Hamilton's most perfect/dominant seasons came when he had a car that were miles beyond anyone else, or at least on par with the opposition.

Likewise, this is why you don't see Vettel in the top 7: bombastic debut, became a machine by like 2013 when he would barely make an error with his unbeatable machinery, but he crumbled a lot under pressure in years where it wasn't clear cut. Hell, he almost lost 2010 and 2012 despite having a dominant car, and in 2018 he had a legit shot at the title only to start accumulating big errors around the middle of the season and not truly recovering since.

Alonso was regularly destroying his teammates, constantly scoring far higher than his car would suffice. For many years he was voted as the best driver in F1 by team principals as well, even in seasons like 2011 where Vettel dominated. There's a reason for that, and you only really need to look at what others did in his same machinery.
Thanks for this! I have to admit I didn't know any of this. Definitely sounds very impressive indeed.

What I actually meant though is that I would love to see his skills in action if we were granted that possibility. I could rewatch his older races of course, but I don't really care much for that.
 

graemebuchan

Member
Mar 29, 2019
94
San Marino 2005 was also an amazing race for Alonso, with a stirling defence against a rampaging Schumacher, still remember it to this day (and for UK channel ITV cutting away for a break mid-battle too!)
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,607
His 2010 and 2012 season had him driving what was occasionally the fastest car, but much more often the 2nd or even the 3rd fastest car, regularly to insane results, both times narrowly missing out on the title against far superior machinery. His 2012 campaign, in particular, was basically perfect, and was unlucky to lose a 40 point lead due to a double retirment between Spa and Monza: the first he had 0 fault in, the second too being a racing incident too.

Or 2011. Spain comes to mind: he got lapped that race, so far behind that Ferrari was in terms of pure pace. He outstarted the grid however and led the first stint, accumulating the rest of the gap after the pitstop.

Or to go farther back, check out Hungary 2006. Started in the back of a grid of a rainy race for a penalty, in a couple laps he was already challenging the leaders.

There's many, many cases one can think of, even outside of Formula 1: he won the 24 Hours of Le Mans on his first try with a stellar pace, he fought for the win leading for many laps and having the fastest average laptime on his first Indy500 attempt, with the race ending with an engine failure for him.

Talent like Alonso doesn't come 'round often. In modern F1 I would say only Michael Schumacher was more capable at extracting race-winning performance from cars that are far from being the best (1997 comes in mind). The reason why Hamilton tends to fare lower in such lists is because he did come with a bombastic debut (2007-2008 were incredible), but his next seasons were very much hit or miss. In the case of 2010 and 2012 that I mentioned for Alonso, Hamilton actually had a better car than Alonso most of the time, and yet ended up below between often inferior pace and errors (although he did stay in the title fight himself for long). Hamilton's most perfect/dominant seasons came when he had a car that were miles beyond anyone else, or at least on par with the opposition.

Likewise, this is why you don't see Vettel in the top 7: bombastic debut, became a machine by like 2013 when he would barely make an error with his unbeatable machinery, but he crumbled a lot under pressure in years where it wasn't clear cut. Hell, he almost lost 2010 and 2012 despite having a dominant car, and in 2018 he had a legit shot at the title only to start accumulating big errors around the middle of the season and not truly recovering since.

Alonso was regularly destroying his teammates, constantly scoring far higher than his car would suffice. For many years he was voted as the best driver in F1 by team principals as well, even in seasons like 2011 where Vettel dominated. There's a reason for that, and you only really need to look at what others did in his same machinery.
Great post. Only one thing about Hungary 2006. Michelin tyres had an absurd performance advantage over the Bridgestone in intermediate / wet conditions. To put things into perspective in China after the quali session in wet conditions MSC was the only "bridgestone driver" in the top 10 and qualified 6th.
 

FairyEmpire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,191
San Marino 2005 was also an amazing race for Alonso, with a stirling defence against a rampaging Schumacher, still remember it to this day (and for UK channel ITV cutting away for a break mid-battle too!)
That race also has one of my all-time favourite passes by Schumacher, for the record.



He basically just went straight and threw the car over the kerbs like there was no tomorrow, got into that turn with so much extra speed and mantained momentum compared to Button's car.

That race was something else. Schumacher was whateverthefuckth with a Ferrari that looked unimpressive, but then he stayed out more making the fuel and tyres last while lapping insanely fast once out of traffic. Suddenly after everyone pitted, he was up there fighting for the podium, blasted through Button like that, caught up with Alonso (with his fantastic Renault) in a second, and then a fierce battle begin. No real attempts were ever made because the track is hard to overtake on and Alonso's defense was perfect, but Schumacher showed during the race that he will absolutely abuse any inch his opponent will give him.

Funnily enough, the same situation happened in reverse in 2006. Schumacher led the whole race in front of Alonso, who tried in vain the whole race to make him commit the slightest mistake to get through, having a much faster pace. It never happened.
 

Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
I jumped in F1 too late to see Alonso performing. All I witnessed of him were poor results at McLaren and his incredible winey reactions. So it'd love to see where the praise comes from.
You can buy the Archive at F1TV for £20 during the winter. You have extended highlights of every single race since 1980.

So maybe you can educate yourself.
 

AnilP228

Member
Mar 14, 2018
284
Thanks for this! I have to admit I didn't know any of this. Definitely sounds very impressive indeed.

What I actually meant though is that I would love to see his skills in action if we were granted that possibility. I could rewatch his older races of course, but I don't really care much for that.
Alonso at his best was just an absolute beast of a driver. Vettel and Hamilton have won much more (and I'm sure Max and Leclerc will too), but Alonso at his best is the best driver I've ever seen in Formula 1 (alongside peak Prost and of course Schumacher). He was just relentlessly quick and consistent, even when the cars were terrible.

Valencia and Malaysia 2012 show just how great he was, but even when he was young he put together races like Imola 2005, against a 7x WDC.

It's a shame he couldn't stay at any one team for longer than a few years without burning them out. In many ways, his intensity reminds me of Jose Mourinho, who rarely stays more than 3-4 years a Football club before the players stop caring for him, despite their success.
 

FairyEmpire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,191
Alonso at his best was just an absolute beast of a driver. Vettel and Hamilton have won much more (and I'm sure Max and Leclerc will too), but Alonso at his best is the best driver I've ever seen in Formula 1 (alongside peak Prost and of course Schumacher). He was just relentlessly quick and consistent, even when the cars were terrible.

Valencia and Malaysia 2012 show just how great he was, but even when he was young he put together races like Imola 2005, against a 7x WDC.

It's a shame he couldn't stay at any one team for longer than a few years without burning them out. In many ways, his intensity reminds me of Jose Mourinho, who rarely stays more than 3-4 years a Football club before the players stop caring for him, despite their success.
Indeed. His surprisingly great renaults with a terrible Renault in 2008-2009, his near title wins with Ferrari which was the 2nd/3rd best car in 2010 and 2012, him being able to do entire championships basically flawlessly (2007 was the exception, not the rule). Formula 1 lost a lot by having him retire from the sport, that's for sure.
 

TheRulingRing

Member
Apr 6, 2018
4,113
Alonso at his best was just an absolute beast of a driver. Vettel and Hamilton have won much more (and I'm sure Max and Leclerc will too), but Alonso at his best is the best driver I've ever seen in Formula 1 (alongside peak Prost and of course Schumacher). He was just relentlessly quick and consistent, even when the cars were terrible.

Valencia and Malaysia 2012 show just how great he was, but even when he was young he put together races like Imola 2005, against a 7x WDC.

It's a shame he couldn't stay at any one team for longer than a few years without burning them out. In many ways, his intensity reminds me of Jose Mourinho, who rarely stays more than 3-4 years a Football club before the players stop caring for him, despite their success.
Off track issues are the major things that blighted both Alonso and Hamilton.

Alonso crumbled against a rookie in 2007 when Hamilton got into his head, and of course his well documented fights with like every team he's been at have made him an untouchable now.

Hamilton's career is forever going to have a black mark due to his personal issues around 2011 onwards severely affecting his racing performance.

It's part of why Schumacher is so impressive despite him being just as driven and engaging in the same sort of gamesmanship. No doubt the Brawn/Todt superteam played a large role in that, but even before then he proved how well he could focus on extracting the best performance from a team every season. There's a reason modern F1 begins with Schumacher.

Ferrari has never recovered from their decision to pick Raikkonen over him in 2007.
 

Fredo

Member
Oct 30, 2017
252
Hamilton's career is forever going to have a black mark due to his personal issues around 2011 onwards severely affecting his racing performance.
He still took three wins and a pole position. That pole position was the only one not taken by Red Bull and it was not gifted.

His performance over the season was below his usual level. However it was not horrible. Button in contrast had his peak season.
 
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AnilP228

Member
Mar 14, 2018
284
'Black mark' is extreme, but it was a poor season from him. From the second half of 2010-end of 2011 he was certainly very inconsistent, but in 2012 he was superb.
 

nny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,856
"It may look similar to last year, but it is very different"

"I have a lot of Italian food inside myself"

<3
 

Dan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
Ferrari have gone hard with the Alfa/McLaren "low endplate, high centre" front wing config.