Fighting Games Era |OT| Two-Button Dashes Are Great

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,338
I'm always confused how most efforts to revive World Heroes since NGBC focus on Fûma and Hanzô.
People like this game because of the weirdos like Rasputin and Mudman, not fucking Ryu and Ken.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,043
Columbia, SC
I'm always confused how most efforts to revive World Heroes since NGBC focus on Fûma and Hanzô.
People like this game because of the weirdos like Rasputin and Mudman, not fucking Ryu and Ken.
Yeah, I find World Heroes as a concept cooler than any individual character in it. All these crazy characters with all sorts of abilities from different time periods fighting it out across time and space. If there was a character I'd associate with the game at first thought its definately Mudman.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
That game was on sale recently.

I still didn't buy it.
I bought it. Not bad. I felt like Gunvolt's power set was underplayed though. If you shot someone in his game it put a target on them. He could also put an energy field around himself called a flash field. Anyone with a target on them would have lightning from the field shoot out at them like it was channeled to a lightning rod and keep hitting them as long as he kept the flashfield up. The more you shot folks the more powerful the target you put on them and the stronger the attack became. Since the flashfield had it's own meter you'd have to stop and charge so you couldnt do it forever in the Gunvolt games though. He could also hold flashfield during jumps to slow his descent meaning that on a dash into a jump into flashfield he could get crazy long jumps with a field of death around him.

These would've made him op as hell though in a fighter. Especially the jumping flashfield stuff with its hitbox lol. Even without that lightning rod and flashfield proper usage though I'd say Gunvolt is still the best in the game. He can up his damage on a command grab that uses flashfield and his command dashes make his combos a breeze. Guy is good at everything.

Blade Strangers truly did feel like someone got simple inputs in a fighting game right. I'd have liked louder and scummier tools to up the excitement factor but it's a legit good fighter in spite of how it's weird antialias and art looks.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,850
Yeah, did not expect DLC for Blade Strangers at all.

Gunvolt could've worked with something similar to Bullet's Drive, I think.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
Hadn't fired up the gpd win in awhile but had it at work tonight and forgot I'd put Thems Fighting Herds on it.

I'd forgotten how fun some of the cast was. The sheep is like ms fortune cept she can have multiple sheep dogs instead of heads out doin attacks. Plus you can summon one to stay in the air. The resets and combos are so easy for that sheep to do lol. Love that sheep. Fun animations of constantly being terrified, covering their eyes for a medium attack. Just fun stuff there. I also really dig the trash that Unicorn puts out. Tons of orbs on the ground near and far plus super long lasting hover orbs all paired with teleports and projectiles and even an ability to float while charging meter during jumps. Hell meter charging in general has me convinced this character has to be top tier.

Respect to mane6. They didn't make a lot but its solid what they made so far. Would genuinely like to see more from them. 7th fate for bbcross tag or something lol.
 
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shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
Spent some time playing Blaz Blue Cross Tag battle today since it finally arrived. These are my last days off before outage work and nearly 10 straight weeks of 10 hrs or more at the plant so I'm trying to enjoy what I can while I can.

Damn Blake Belladonna is fucking fun. Fast, great rushdown, great range on her tethered weapons. Really enjoying her. Gordeau is still a piece of shit top tier who ruins my life lol, but at least I got good reversal options this go round vs him in this game.

Game is surprisingly simple with a ton of room to go complex with shit.
  • Two auto combos, and two attack buttons.
  • Everything is QCF or QCB motions
  • ukemi air and ground recovery goes pretty far meaning off a knockdown you can really launch past folks from corner to mid screen to escape or run from folks which is awesome.
  • your grab has you run up to nearly half screen giving you huge range on grabs and since its ASW you can combo into and off of grabs. Hell you can special or super cancel from them.
  • 3 assist moves at your command with either back, forward or neutral assist button input giving you tons of options. You can even switch to playing your assist character after they appear during an assist call if you choose (this needs to be in Capcom's shit)
  • A third attack button that grants you either a team combo, a universal low or universal overhead tool depending on input
  • Great tag options. You can DHC into your partner's super by hitting assist during a super, or raw tag almost instantly, or your combo breaker is a tag move attempt to interrupt folks or best of all during any assist on the screen you can hit tag to switch to the assist character. This leads to great extensions and mixups as you can change screen position FAST
  • Xfactor that is only available after your tag partner is dead and that is leveled via how many tag tools you used. Lasts 15 seconds and mainly seems to be so you can still recover life once you lose the partner to tag out to. The Chip and meter gain is tremendous too though so that helps a lot, but the damage isn't ridiculous like xfactor which is better overall.
  • a tool that lets you have both characters on screen and use infinite assist moves while you attack till the tag meter runs out.
Game has a lot of easy to use stuff, and a lot of really really good tools. It definitely has the best tag option of choose during any assist call to just switch to that character or not. That adds a whole new layer to mind games and gives some folks amazing ways to close the distance with their partner when pinned down. I've seen the each character has multiple assist moves before in Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax and loved it then and its just as awesome in BBXTB. Its something Capcom so needs to steal for a vs title someday in conjunction with that tag option during assist calls. Could you imagine if Iron Fist's Rising Fang assist had the option to switch to Iron Fist? It'd be the main way folks would have overcome his mobility because on hit its a combo and on whif it meant he could go for pressure as it would allow him to get in. It'd make Vergil's Rapid Slash so fucking ridiculous. Or Strider Vajra for that matter.

Fun mechanics in this game. Underlined and bolded the things I feel are the best. I haven't played it enough to get a taste for its balance yet. I'll really need to check how the P4A movesets held up in this environment for sure. I think if MVCI gets that needed update or sequel someday it should bring back assists and incorporate the assist into tag option for certain. Its such a great option to get in and mixup your pressure on folks.
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,197
I can't believe I'm saying this, but after playing it, the story mode for a Smash game might just be what pushes me over the edge to buy a Nintendo console. What a time to be alive.

But really, it might be the best story mode I've ever seen in a fighting game. There's a ton of battles/content, loot is meaningful and to optimize you need a variety of it, it's heavy on modifiers for the AI opponents to keep switching up the challenge and how you spec for every battle, there's minimal dissonance between the story and the gameplay (unlike in heavily cinematic story modes; although I haven't played much), and it's just fun. Maybe best is too strong of a statement but I cannot believe that they pulled this off so well when other games floundered with loot and the Subspace Emissary might just be one of the most poorly executed story modes. Moving to an overworld instead of having to platform in an engine that makes platforming the most frustrating thing ever makes a world of difference.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,962
Just grabbed DBZ finally. Anyone got any tips to keep in mind when starting? Also decided I'm gonna finally try to learn King of Fighters 14, had the game for 2 years and never started it lol. Any tips for that would be welcome too, traditionally not good at SNK games.
 

Deltadan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
943
Just recently solved an issue with my Sanwa stick's micro-switches. Learned I had to open my joystick up and clean the contacts in them, now it works like a charm. It was also the first time I ever had to do maintenance on a stick so it was a bit of a learning experience, but I got it working correctly in the end.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,850
Just grabbed DBZ finally. Anyone got any tips to keep in mind when starting? Also decided I'm gonna finally try to learn King of Fighters 14, had the game for 2 years and never started it lol. Any tips for that would be welcome too, traditionally not good at SNK games.
Learn to hop ASAP and use qcb,qcf for supers.

!!!!
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,269
This is a good start
I'd take a kinda safe guess here, but most people willing to give KoFXIV a chance are those who played a lot of KoF before and already love/loved the series. Even after XIV's release, I've seen more people try to get into KoF with XIII or 98/02. That presentation really fucked XIV. :(
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,961
California
I just started playing KOF XIV the other day, and though it's not my first time playing a KOF game, it is the first time I've actually given it a proper chance.

Helps that the story mode's boss is actually not too bad. I've been able to take him down multiple times, compared to the zero times I've been able to take down The Last Blade's mid-boss.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
Also dont forget "the button hold trick" for KOF. I was playing raw for years till Badwolf brought up that I sounded like I didn't know this trick. Basically by holding a button early you can guarantee a move will come out as early as possible because it will remain buffered in your inputs.
So basically its kinda like a negative edge trick but not really because KOF doesnt have that. In other words...you dont let go of the button. You just keep holding it. If you input a move and hold the button then input the next move for the cancel it will come out on the earliest from possible.

Here is the entire conversation on Page 3 of the KOF 14 thread here and it was kind of a life changer for several of us trying to really go KOF here.
Just look for shaowebb and badwolf halfway down the page and read us goin back and forth with me asking questions and him clarifying ways it works and such.

This also applies to directional inputs too so if you see any convoluted double motion or something in the movelist...like say something that requires quarter circle forward into half circle backward it means you have a clue on what to use to combo into it. Just look for something with a quarter circle forward in its input to land right before you want the complicated move and then instead of inputting the full thing just input quarter circle back. It'll keep the qcf input from the previous move buffered and pretty much guarantees the second one comes out once you throw the qcb onto it. Much simpler than QCF+HCB!

If it hadn't been for Badwolf I'd have never gotten the hang of cancels and combo grinding in KOF. I'd have remained footsie guy with short combos and few cancels. Good way to practice is with K' Ein trigger cancels. Just input the QCF A and hold A then input the cancel direction and button you want's motion immediately without letting off. Try doing his fireball cancels off that Ein Trigger the normal way where you dont hold the button and its rough. Then try doing it where you hold the attack button and then input the directions for the cancel. It gets super easy and comes out first frame because holding that A buffered everything! Its how you see K' zone so easily and consistently in tournies. Otherwise what commonly happens is you go for QCF + A and try to cancel to his Second Whip which is a forward+ LP input, but often when folks dont use the button hold trick it screws up and you just get his command normal one inch punch that is also a forward +LP input. To guarantee Second Whip comes out instead of One Inch Punch you need to hold A after inputting the ein trigger and just go right into it otherwise instead of guaranteeing first frame it can cancel to second whip it may just read it as a new input instead of a cancel quite easily.

When you get Ein Trigger to Second Whip cancels flying easily with button hold trick then you KNOW you got this down and it takes mere seconds to get it. Literally only a couple reps and you can nail it and its such a world changer.
 
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Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,269
Also dont forget "the button hold trick" for KOF.
This is still the best buffer system in a fighting game, a manual buffer system lol. KoF input tricks as a whole are great, it still boggles my mind how something like ending your QCF with an UP+Forward prevent you from getting an SRK motion move haven't made its way into more fighting games, especially SF, while KoF characters have been throwing fireballs while walking/running forward for more than a decade now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
1,167
That video is all about the jumping systems and how to deal with them.

I'd take a kinda safe guess here, but most people willing to give KoFXIV a chance are those who played a lot of KoF before and already love/loved the series. Even after XIV's release, I've seen more people try to get into KoF with XIII or 98/02. That presentation really fucked XIV. :(
Also decided I'm gonna finally try to learn King of Fighters 14, had the game for 2 years and never started it lol. Any tips for that would be welcome too, traditionally not good at SNK games.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
This is still the best buffer system in a fighting game, a manual buffer system lol. KoF input tricks as a whole are great, it still boggles my mind how something like ending your QCF with an UP+Forward prevent you from getting an SRK motion move haven't made its way into more fighting games, especially SF, while KoF characters have been throwing fireballs while walking/running forward for more than a decade now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I know right? I'm holding forward to walk at you. Decide I wanna fireball. Because I was pushing forward it reads the qcf as forward, down, diagonal forward and says "ay! You just wanted forward down diagonal right?" and out comes dragon punch. Thanks a load. Now I'm bout to get ripped apart dangling in the air in front of a guy I was gonna either check on back dash or forward dash via fireball. Zero method to correct this incorrect system buffer in SF from forcing DP from coming out. KOF..."oh hey mate just hit up diagonal so I know you meant qcf not DP motion because you'll have one more input favoring the odds of a QCF than a DP for me to make my decision with".

KOF is really awesome like that. It took so much into account. The hop system and fireballs though were the starting point of it though. If all your damned jumps have the same height and distance no matter how long you hold or light you hit them then I can always read them. If you dont have any option other than fireball, armored shit, or jump to deal with other fireballs then your only option to deal with them that moves you in on folks zoning is jump. This is why you get destroyed in SF games so easily with jumps. If someone has good AA and fireballs in SF its a solid recipe to rise through the ranks.

KOF has short hops, super hops and all manner of distances you can jump so they can't read and wreck your landing on shit. Plus it has dodge rolls as a forward moving option to get through fireballs universally which is still something a proper player can blowup so its not OP. Additionally in KOF Slow projectiles have fast recovery and are used to run up at someone. Fast projectiles have long recovery and are for zoning. SF seems to screw that up plus the block stun on them allowing folks to just lockdown too much. In KOF fireballs are used to GET IN. In SF fireballs are used to stay away.

Its just a better system for footsies overall to implement the hop system, fireball recovery and stuns, and roll mechanics at your core like KOF always does. With that in place it becomes so much easier to design folks because the core mobility systems in the game are solid enough that the entire roster has the tools needed to function right out the gate unlike SF where its generally a case of if you aint got a fireball or a forward progressive tool that plows through em you gonna get ate by anyone with a decent AA and projectiles.

Coming off UMVC3 to switch to KOF 13 as my main was one of the most eye opening and incredible things I ever did. Blew my mind the footsies and world of options I'd been missing. Opened me up to trying as many titles as possible for years after. KOF is still something treasured due to this. I'd spent years slumming it as a casual on their titles but till 13 I never realized how deep the differences and systems were.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
Heh...digging through my KOF library today and started hitting KOF 11 again since I managed to get it for PS3 via the hong kong PSN marketplace.
Man did I forget about MALIN. Character had 8 way air dashes, divekicks and traps and was super unique. Parts of her playstyle have been chopped up and used in a lot of cast in KOF 14 but I'd love to see this spy character return.

 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,886
Heh...digging through my KOF library today and started hitting KOF 11 again since I managed to get it for PS3 via the hong kong PSN marketplace.
Man did I forget about MALIN. Character had 8 way air dashes, divekicks and traps and was super unique. Parts of her playstyle have been chopped up and used in a lot of cast in KOF 14 but I'd love to see this spy character return.

I preferred her in '03, they nerfed her a good deal in XI.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
More KOF 11 because the game really does need to be seen more. Such a good title.
This time MOMOKO!

A psychic team character who uses capoeria...though likely the most adorable version I've ever seen. She had neat block strings and jumping stomp pressure. Chain character kinda like Angel but...not? Anyhoo she had a booty rekka and her Desperation Move is one where you can manually enter inputs as she sings to create an every changing high low situation thats never the same. No clue bout her in the meta at all but fun to use and lookit her. She is sweetness personified. If there was a KOF equivalent to Roll this would be it.

Watch the next vid to get diabetes from how sweet she is. Fun fact. Not a grade schooler in spite appearances lol.

I'd like to see Momoko , Bao and a new third for a young psychic soldiers team sometime. It'd be a neat new group.
 
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shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
BTW speaking of KOF we got some KOF coming to Phantasy Star Online 2

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/02/22/kyo-iori-athena-mai-and-leona-join-phantasy-star-online-2-as-new-costumes/

Real talk I would love more Sega vs SNK things in the future. Those two were great back in the arcade early console era and their older cast would make for a great fighter someday so long as its not overrun with Sonic cast. Streets of Rage, Vectorman, Comix Zone, Beyond Oasis, Shinobi...these vs things like Metal Slug, KOF, Sengoku, King of Monsters...pretty fun and out there idea.
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
1,167
Real talk I would love more Sega vs SNK things in the future. Those two were great back in the arcade early console era and their older cast would make for a great fighter someday so long as its not overrun with Sonic cast. Streets of Rage, Vectorman, Comix Zone, Beyond Oasis, Shinobi...these vs things like Metal Slug, KOF, Sengoku, King of Monsters...pretty fun and out there idea.
Unlikely. SNK has been working with Taito hardware in their arcade releases for more than 10 years. I doubt Sega wants to release their IPs on a Taito Type X/Nesica cab.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,912
Unlikely. SNK has been working with Taito hardware in their arcade releases for more than 10 years. I doubt Sega wants to release their IPs on a Taito Type X/Nesica cab.
Shame really. I like seeing SNK in Sega. Somehow feels right. Like its a closer fit than SNK and Capcom somehow to me. Ah well. I dream of Sega crossovers a lot. Honestly I'd like to see a Neo geo Battle Coliseum 2 someday just to see an SNK all star fighter once more. I think Sega was involved with that one somehow. It was neat seeing some of those characters together from Last Blade, KOF, AoF, Athena, Samsho, World Heroes, King of the Monsters 2, and all the rest.


My team used to be Lee Pai Long and Kaede.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,338
NGBC still hurts, man. All these great characters, some rather good sprite work, into a lackluster sound design and very... divisive team system.
If the rules had been the KOFXI ones (or even something insane like 2001), everything would have been very different. Instead, they went with.... one of the most boring implementations of a team system ever created until SFxT.
The choice of characters was so good... Real Athena, Lee Pailong, Asura, Tung, Mudman, Wild Robert, Chonshu and ChonRei... Also, the game gave us the best ship I never knew KOF needed: Shermie x BIG. They just belong to each other.

It sucks SNK rarely went the iterative route that Capcom almost always followed, and often left promising ideas to the trash instead of refining them with a sequel. I'm still dreaming of what NGBC2 could have been. The Hiroaki curse.
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
1,167
It sucks SNK rarely went the iterative route that Capcom almost always followed, and often left promising ideas to the trash instead of refining them with a sequel. I'm still dreaming of what NGBC2 could have been. The Hiroaki curse.
I'm actually glad they kept experimenting and putting ideas to test in completed games to see what works and what doesn't. A good example was their output from 1994-95: Fatal Fury 3 and Samurai Shodown 3 were very experimental titles.

FF3 had dash, backdash, the jumping system that would be later added to KOF, chain combos, 2 differents guard attacks per character, 3 planes, different kind of knockdowns per attack, hidden specials, etc.

Samurai Shodown 3 removed every non-japanese character except Galford, had air blocking, dodge and dodge dash, 3 different selectable blocking systems including autoblock and no block and 2 different versions of every character with different special attacks. Any other developer would've just used the Samurai Shodown 2 template and add more characters reusing all the other sprites.