Fighting Games Era |OT| Two-Button Dashes Are Great

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
I'm actually glad they kept experimenting and putting ideas to test in completed games to see what works and what doesn't. A good example was their output from 1994-95: Fatal Fury 3 and Samurai Shodown 3 were very experimental titles.
But these two titles had quite a different legacy. FF3 was replaced by Real Bout, which learned a lot of lessons from 3 but was its own thing, and then got iterated twice until it became RB2, one of SNK's all time greatest games.
Zankurô Musôken is the prettiest of all SS games, but it was also absurdly messy, and nothing of it remains in later titles. Amakusa Kôrin ditched almost everything and went into the opposite direction (an absolutely terrible one, adding automatic combos to SS). SS continued to experiment and, more often than not, fail, until Yuki cleaned up the mess the series had become with a game that, first and foremost, used SSS as a base, and then incorporated some further systems, but systems that mixed well with the SSS formula of slow, high damage, patient play.

It's good to experiment, but SNK spent very little time learning from these experiments. Zankurô or AoF3 have no legacy.
And it sucks, because when SNK allowed themselves to refine their ideas, that's when they made their classics. LB2 over LB1, SSS over SS, RB2, 98 over 97-96...
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,792
NGBC is a great game, is basically SNK vs Capcom 2, but with more care and love.

The only issues are that the broken characters are definitely way better than the rest of the cast
 

Futaleufu

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,142
But these two titles had quite a different legacy. FF3 was replaced by Real Bout, which learned a lot of lessons from 3 but was its own thing, and then got iterated twice until it became RB2, one of SNK's all time greatest games.
Real Bout had a great legacy, the button layout and combo system heavily influenced Guilty Gear and subsequent titles made by ArcSys.

Zankurô Musôken is the prettiest of all SS games, but it was also absurdly messy, and nothing of it remains in later titles. Amakusa Kôrin ditched almost everything and went into the opposite direction (an absolutely terrible one, adding automatic combos to SS). SS continued to experiment and, more often than not, fail, until Yuki cleaned up the mess the series had become with a game that, first and foremost, used SSS as a base, and then incorporated some further systems, but systems that mixed well with the SSS formula of slow, high damage, patient play.

It's good to experiment, but SNK spent very little time learning from these experiments. Zankurô or AoF3 have no legacy.
SS3 was the first game with character variations (true variations, Super characters in SSF2T do not count) and where the flow of the fight dictated the mood and the presentation (backgrounds and BGM). It was the most cinematic fighting game experience at that time.
AOF3 had Fatal KOs/Astral Finishes and rotoscoped characters, although most of the motion capture made in USA wasnt used in the final game, according to a recent interview.

Buriki One has no legacy. Neither Cyberbots nor Warzard/Red Earth.
 
Last edited:

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,792
I'm shocked by how popular is Virtua Fighter 3 in Japan.

For the most part I always heard this narrative that VF3 was the Black Sheep of the series because of the 4th button and the undulation of the stages amongst other things.

But a friend who went to Japan told me that somehow the game gained a lot of popularity later, and is arguably the most played virtua fighter game after Final Shodown. I didn't understand his explanation of why it was widely played now, either was because the game was always popular, or that people wanted to give a try to the "Black Sheep" of the series and falled in love with it, maybe oneida could give us a better input on this. Maybe also this Black Sheep narrative was púshed by the western side where the game wasn't that popular thanks to the expensive prices of the game + cabinet and the shoddy Dreamcast port

Also, my friend told me that the VF3 has a lot of women in there, he even told the story of a grandmother at her 50's who ocasionally dropped in Mikado, kicked everybody butt with Sarah, and then left the arcade because she has to feed her grandsons or something.

Now I really want to go to Japan to meet the local VF3 community
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,084
Oman
Yeah VF3's sudden popularity surprised me too. I think the crowd just opened up to the inclusion of the dodge button and got a hang of how the game plays with it and it got popular over time.

Virtua Fighter 3 is a game I first saw at my local arcade YEARS ago. I must've seen it as early as 1997 and I was blown away by its graphics
 

oneida

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,912
VF3 was always popular in Japan and that black sheep thing is entirely BS. Remember that before FS, VF3 had the longest life of any iteration. The Athena Cup (now called Beat Tribe) exploded during the VF3 days and many of the old heads like Chibita started there. It also outsold pretty much every other fighting game on Dreamcast, had a nearly 1:1 attach rate at the console's launch, and Suzuki claimed that all the money Sega had lost on Shenmue had been "paid for" by VF3's success.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,084
Oman
VF3 was always popular in Japan and that black sheep thing is entirely BS. Remember that before FS, VF3 had the longest life of any iteration. The Athena Cup (now called Beat Tribe) exploded during the VF3 days and many of the old heads like Chibita started there. It also outsold pretty much every other fighting game on Dreamcast, had a nearly 1:1 attach rate at the console's launch, and Suzuki claimed that all the money Sega had lost on Shenmue had been "paid for" by VF3's success.
Thanks for the input.
 

oneida

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,912
Thanks for the input.
No problem! to be sure, VF3 scene has been growing over the past six years or so with the 3tb World Cup annual tournaments and all the work that Hama-Lau puts in at Mikado, I don't mean to downplay that. But the game definitely did not have the connotation it has in the USA, which I think is due to the majority of people who played it having tried to play it on a Dreamcast controller. The game is very hard to play on that thing, especially compared to mashing VF2 on Saturn pads like most were doing.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,330
Also, my friend told me that the VF3 has a lot of women in there, he even told the story of a grandmother at her 50's who ocasionally dropped in Mikado, kicked everybody butt with Sarah, and then left the arcade because she has to feed her grandsons or something.
This is the best.

No problem! to be sure, VF3 scene has been growing over the past six years or so with the 3tb World Cup annual tournaments and all the work that Hama-Lau puts in at Mikado, I don't mean to downplay that. But the game definitely did not have the connotation it has in the USA, which I think is due to the majority of people who played it having tried to play it on a Dreamcast controller. The game is very hard to play on that thing, especially compared to mashing VF2 on Saturn pads like most were doing.
To be fair, the only fighters that aren't hard to play on the DC pad are Soul Calibur, Power Stone and Tech Romancer. Ugh, that dpad.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
Well...that was the last of my days off for 2 months. Spent them trying out multiple fighters and doin art.

I was left with some odd thoughts after finally having played some SNK Heroines Tag Frenzy
The game doesn't feel like a fighting game to me. Definitely not an SNK one for certain if you wanna keep that classification. Sure you gotta do some combo and stuff to get damage but the match literally never ends till you can hit your big finish move sorta like Playstation All Stars. It becomes a game of whif punish very fast as damage is stupid easy to get. Doesn't really feel like mixups are a thing either and its a block button game not a back to block game.

It honestly feels like divekick to me in a way. Only thing is you're required to land enough damage first to do your one hit kill and since specials eat your red health bar you usually have to tag to your partner to have the meter to attempt to end the match. Goin for damage so I can win literally feels detrimental at times because it guarantees a resource deficit with the character thats earning the victory. I just go for stun with the first character to tag in and finish with my second though so no big.

Also it has assist moves but not. It uses item drops on the screen. I'm not against this but they all look the same and your assist tool is random so it doesn't really feel too good to hear "banana!" when you're hoping for pinball or something

Overall I just dont know who SNK Heroines Tag Team Frenzy was made for. It doesn't hit enough notes as a fighter to make you feel rewarded in that genre and it has too many obstacles to one hit footsies to truly feel like a divekick attempt plus RNG is meh.

I will say this. I think its economy on cash rewarded for doing things and the cost of buying new costumes, voice packs, and accessories per bodypart is good and that this is a really good idea in completely the wrong manner. Its all done for silly dressup doll girl fetishing in this title. I get it. Its the theme. Its there. Thing is I could easily see wanting to grind for parts similar to soul calibur creation mode or Injustice 2 gear collecting. I think SNK experimented a LOT with this one and the one thing they should keep moving forward is the accessories in the shop. It'd be nice to have more than color alts in KOF or SAMSHO and if I could grind cash to buy an ever expanding list of costume pieces it'd give me something to do besides just idle combo grind.

Overall...I rate this game at the absolute bottom of my fighting game's list right now. Yes below Aquapazza and negative emotion because it still feels like a real fighter. I do think SNK needs to keep the stuff I said around going forward. I guess on one more positive note the endings are cute and funny so thats something I guess. Here's hoping Shermie comes back for KOF 15 because damn it hurt that this was the only way to see any Team Orochi in 2019 snk ;_;
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,792
I think that this game was made for the ultra hardcore fan of SNK, but I'm not necesarily talking about the one who plays KOF to competitive levels, but rather, for those who enjoy the lore and fanservice of those games. At least in Japan it seems that there is a lot of people who fall into this category, and as far as I know the game sold "ok" it wasn't a bomba but neither a huge sucess that justifies releasing more content for it.

Overall, I enjoy it for what it is, an experimental SNK game with tons of fanservice that is either very good, or very creepy
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
I think that this game was made for the ultra hardcore fan of SNK, but I'm not necesarily talking about the one who plays KOF to competitive levels, but rather, for those who enjoy the lore and fanservice of those games. At least in Japan it seems that there is a lot of people who fall into this category, and as far as I know the game sold "ok" it wasn't a bomba but neither a huge sucess that justifies releasing more content for it.

Overall, I enjoy it for what it is, an experimental SNK game with tons of fanservice that is either very good, or very creepy
I honestly liked the easy inputs for SNK . Felt fun popping off Iori rekkas with a single button and doin his dp all the time mid combo. SNK could go easy input if it wished, but a game with no mixups and a block button just doesn't seem the right fit.

I'd honestly be curious if they'd try it like the EO system again. They seemed like they had a good grasp on it this time around with Tag Frenzy and they've already embraced autocombos to give folks easier confirms and beginner combos without goin full DBFZ where they verge on being too good to not use.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
The worst part of SNK Heroines is that it reminds old people like me of how great Gals Fighters was on NGP.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,196
https://www.destructoid.com/snk-s-exciting-king-of-fighters-2003-available-on-ps4-xbox-one-and-switch-544074.phtml

Who in the fuck could write an article praising KOF 2003 as "exciting" while also saying that KOF XI is the worst game in the series?
Someone joking?! ;p
Both KoF 2003's aesthetic and gameplay style would be tweaked to near-perfection in the following release, KoF XI (which foolishly omits Leona Heidern from the roster and is therefore the worst game in the series).
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
https://www.destructoid.com/snk-s-exciting-king-of-fighters-2003-available-on-ps4-xbox-one-and-switch-544074.phtml

Who in the fuck could write an article praising KOF 2003 as "exciting" while also saying that KOF XI is the worst game in the series?
I...wait...what?
But there so...how did...what?

Im sorry my mind is full of fuck after this. Im gonna have to read this mess.
My top 3 are KOF 13, KOF14, KOF 11 then like the dream or ultimate match stuff are tied with 2003 because fuck me al ltheir rosters were amazing.

EDIT: Oh its because his waifu Leona was omitted is why he shits on it lol. Bet he probably has an irrational hatred of Whip after she replaced her too.

BTW did the KOF 11 title have tourney life anywhere on PS2 because it had a shitload of exclusives over the arcade.
These were all the folks JUST added for PS2 and fuck me they are some heavy hitters. Im not even sure the 5 mid bosses and sub boss Shion were at arcades as playable or not because I never played that version. That alone would be 13 more characters and just lookit them all.

Mai Shiranui
Geese Howard
Mr. Big
Robert Garcia
Tung Fu Rue
Hotaru Futaba
EX Kyo Kusanagi
Gai Tendo
Sho Hayate
Jyazu
Silber
Adelheid Bernstein
Shion


Thats some big ol meta shifting names right there. How many were on arcade though as playable?

DOUBLE EDIT: Lol...just found out arcade and PS2 versions both had the Duck King glitch and it was tier changer! He had more frame advantage than he was supposed to on some moves on the 2p side so Duck King 2p gets a seperate tier near the top lol. And as it turns out from tier reviews Momoko was indeed complete ass lol. Oh well. So much for SNK's Roll equivalent. Shion was banned tier though which seems entirely appropriate to me :)
 
Last edited:

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
I thought the consensus on 2003 was that it was one of the worst of the series along with 2001 and XII...

The problem with the characters added to the PS2 version of XI was that they were copy and pasted from NGBC I believe? They were not properly balanced for XI. I can't remember the details, something about damage output being too high?
The others (Gai, Hayate, Silber...) are playable in the arcade version and most of them are competitive IIRC.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
Or that SvC on NGP was better than SvC Chaos and CvS2.
(And the second card game on NGP is the best game of them all).
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,330
It doesn't take much to be better than SvC Chaos though. But I'll disagree about CvS2 - CvS2 > NGP SvC >>>> CvS1
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
Or that SvC on NGP was better than SvC Chaos and CvS2.
(And the second card game on NGP is the best game of them all).
Not gonna lie. I'm a big fan of the CVS card games. Mana system was so dope. Some cards were awesome batteries for mana generating but in a pinch they could double as offense to get damage or block. I actually own a physical copy of the card game from a fan project with updated card art and high end laminate printed cards.
 

Futaleufu

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,142
BTW did the KOF 11 title have tourney life anywhere on PS2 because it had a shitload of exclusives over the arcade.
These were all the folks JUST added for PS2 and fuck me they are some heavy hitters. Im not even sure the 5 mid bosses and sub boss Shion were at arcades as playable or not because I never played that version. That alone would be 13 more characters and just lookit them all.

Mai Shiranui
Geese Howard
Mr. Big
Robert Garcia
Tung Fu Rue
Hotaru Futaba
EX Kyo Kusanagi
Gai Tendo
Sho Hayate
Jyazu
Silber
Adelheid Bernstein
Shion

Thats some big ol meta shifting names right there. How many were on arcade though as playable?
Arcade had:
Gai Tendo
Sho Hayate
Jyazu
Silber
Adelheid Bernstein
Shion

PS2 only, everyone except Kyo taken from NGBC:
Mai Shiranui
Geese Howard
Mr. Big
Robert Garcia
Tung Fu Rue
Hotaru Futaba
EX Kyo Kusanagi
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851

Yooooooooooooo!
SamSho looks dope as fuck!
Am I finally gonna play a non NRS 1v1 seriously again? HELL YES I AM!

Also all hail the EVO lineup this year.


BBx Tag, Unist, Samurai Spirits and MK 11, MORE DBFZ...the hype is here. And god damn 2 brand new unreleased titles in MK11 and Samurai Spirits showing up at this! We gonna see some crazy stuff with games that fresh. Crazy not seeing Guilty Gear though. I understand Melee leaving though.

Also new UMVC3 glitch just cause why not.

Bonus BBxTag battle glitch
 
Last edited:

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,330
The bear on SamSho backgrounds look so much like the SF4 animals lol
I'm expecting the whole SS1 cast to come back (Tam Tam and Genan BETTER come back), but also hoping for:
Genjuro
grappler Hanzo from 64/NGP, give the moveset to a new character
Kuroko
the Kazama twins
Basara
Gaira
Shizumaru
Yunfei
Rera
Gaoh/Demon Gaoh
Daruma
Mikoto
Rinka
Taizan

Sieger and Kusageredo can kiss my ass.
 

sibarraz

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
8,792
I'm seriously considering going to evo. but I don't know how expensive could be to someone like me staying there for 1 week.

A Chile-USA-Chile is going to cost me $850 which is affordable to me. But then I don't know how expensive is to book a hotel, eating, doing some tourism and even buy merchandising at EVO or in Las Vegas.

Also, I only have a debit card, I don't own a credit one, and a friend told me that most hotels ask you to have one
 

ColonialHawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
510
South Carolina
I'm seriously considering going to evo. but I don't know how expensive could be to someone like me staying there for 1 week.

A Chile-USA-Chile is going to cost me $850 which is affordable to me. But then I don't know how expensive is to book a hotel, eating, doing some tourism and even buy merchandising at EVO or in Las Vegas.

Also, I only have a debit card, I don't own a credit one, and a friend told me that most hotels ask you to have one
How long is a week to you? The rate (Evo rate) at the Luxor (right next to Mandalay Bay) is going at $101 USD a night currently, which is pretty good.
And I've used a debit card before to book and pay for the room, but I think it differs based on hotel so check out the hotel's policies before booking.

Food can be as cheap as you want it. Both hotels have food courts with relatively cheap options.

Gotta be more specific on tourism. If you mean gambling then you bring however much you want, but you just cap it at a limit per day. So like $20 a day limit on gambling if thats what you wanna do.

And EVO merch tends to be like $20-$50 for clothing and less than $20 for smaller stuff. Artist tables have a big range on pricing but most tables have specials. I did a couple "buy 2-3 art prints for $25". I brought like a $100 as a limit for art stuff.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,580
Iroha and Mina were rather popular before this reboot, the latter also bringing something different to the series by being the only archer, but I would be surprised to see either be part of the base roster rather than DLC if they were to happen.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,580
Pretty much all memories I have of Shiki were from playing SvC while I still had a local arcade to frequent.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,230
We need to know more about the system... but Shiki doesn't feel like she belongs to a game with slow and powerful SSS-like kills.
Iroha could work if they emphasize her air movement (and they think Yunfei is too annoying to balance).
I'd love a total redesign of Mina. Something like "she survived the end of SS0 by killing Champoloo, and she carved tonfas out of his bones for REVENGE".
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,851
Pretty much all memories I have of Shiki were from playing SvC while I still had a local arcade to frequent.
My memories of SVC were mainly hearing Kyosuke yell while filling the screen with bullshit. God he was such a pain in that game when the AI used him. Full screen pillars and projectiles non stop. Ick. He was like an early prelude to Dormammu fights later in my life.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,580
Pretty sure Kyosuke was CvS2, though.

Not interested in a redesign for Mina, but Champuru being dead and gone would be good.