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Fighting Games Era |OT| Two-Button Dashes Are Great

Futaleufu

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,367
That footsies blog post is entirely accurate.

People saying that walk speed is too slow probably say the same about Makoto in SF.

You can tell people who knows about SS and people who knows nothing about the series.



If you expect SS to be Street Fighter with weapons then you'll be disappointed.
 

BadWolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,222
That footsies blog post is entirely accurate.

People saying that walk speed is too slow probably say the same about Makoto in SF.

You can tell people who knows about SS and people who knows nothing about the series.



If you expect SS to be Street Fighter with weapons then you'll be disappointed.
Those two are the last people that anyone should be looking to for anything SNK related, David in particular.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
If anyone's looking for SF with weapons, then Granblue Fantasy Versus is what they should be waiting for anyway (but people whined about the walk speed being too slow in that, too).
 

Static Shock

Coward
Oct 27, 2017
4,007
Florida
If anyone's looking for SF with weapons, then Granblue Fantasy Versus is what they should be waiting for anyway (but people whined about the walk speed being too slow in that, too).
People are being very narrow minded towards fighting game systems nowadays, I thought it was fine. If they were to make it faster I would only want it to be a little faster. Maybe get everyone to the level of Lancelot and make him a little faster. But I will not shed a tear if they don't increase walk speed.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,208
I was thinking about the next KOF release. After the new SamSho releases, we might see a trailer for a new King of Fighters sometime before the end of the year--KOFXV, most likely.

I was wondering what changes would be made to that KOF so that the game would appeal to more casual audiences, or folks who tried to get into KOF, but the game just never *clicked* with them. And, it got me thinking...


What if KOFXV added a button for short hops? An optional input in addition to just tapping an upward direction on your pad/arcade stick. I was picturing just pushing the button for a neutral hop, forward+button for a forward hop, back+button for a backwards hop, and then performing a dash+button would do a hyper hop. I wonder how such a feature would be received by fans of the game. I personally, think the idea would be worth implementing.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
People are being very narrow minded towards fighting game systems nowadays, I thought it was fine. If they were to make it faster I would only want it to be a little faster. Maybe get everyone to the level of Lancelot and make him a little faster. But I will not shed a tear if they don't increase walk speed.
I would much prefer it not to be the case of everyone moving like Lancelot as opposed to those players just picking him if they find others too slow, it would start feeling more like a typical hyperaggressive anime fighter otherwise. But then, the beta thread had people wanting air dashes of all things in it too, which was far more inexplicable than nitpicks concerning walk speeds.
 

Static Shock

Coward
Oct 27, 2017
4,007
Florida
I was thinking about the next KOF release. After the new SamSho releases, we might see a trailer for a new King of Fighters sometime before the end of the year--KOFXV, most likely.

I was wondering what changes would be made to that KOF so that the game would appeal to more casual audiences, or folks who tried to get into KOF, but the game just never *clicked* with them. And, it got me thinking...


What if KOFXV added a button for short hops? An optional input in addition to just tapping an upward direction on your pad/arcade stick. I was picturing just pushing the button for a neutral hop, forward+button for a forward hop, back+button for a backwards hop, and then performing a dash+button would do a hyper hop. I wonder how such a feature would be received by fans of the game. I personally, think the idea would be worth implementing.
I think that's a bad idea. It would be a negative impact on competitive play. I would prefer they make a full packaged game that gives casual players fun ways to play the game other than multiplayer.
 

Futaleufu

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,367
I like the chances of KOFXV being a launch title for next gen, as long as they release it on PC at the same time.
 

BadWolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,222
I was thinking about the next KOF release. After the new SamSho releases, we might see a trailer for a new King of Fighters sometime before the end of the year--KOFXV, most likely.

I was wondering what changes would be made to that KOF so that the game would appeal to more casual audiences, or folks who tried to get into KOF, but the game just never *clicked* with them. And, it got me thinking...


What if KOFXV added a button for short hops? An optional input in addition to just tapping an upward direction on your pad/arcade stick. I was picturing just pushing the button for a neutral hop, forward+button for a forward hop, back+button for a backwards hop, and then performing a dash+button would do a hyper hop. I wonder how such a feature would be received by fans of the game. I personally, think the idea would be worth implementing.
If they follow the pattern that they have established with XIV and SamSho then we will very likely see XV and/or the new Metal Slug at Sony's TGS conference this year.

The issue that KOF is facing is that it has gained a rep of being a hard series to get into with tough execution.

The one thing they need to do is to take out max mode and replace it with an entirely new system. Something fresh. They played it a little safe with XIV, which is understandable since it was their first 3D mainline game and they wanted to appeal to both old and new KOF fans, but with XV they should be aiming for new ideas.

Don't know if this is something they are considering but in the current official KOFXIV manga iirc they have a new format where instead of the winning character staying on and going through the team they instead have new team members fighting in the first and second round and it going to the third round if it's 1-1 after the first two rounds. This could be an interesting way to speed up the pace of matches for KOF and would also not have newer players getting OCV'd left and right.

I think that's a bad idea. It would be a negative impact on competitive play. I would prefer they make a full packaged game that gives casual players fun ways to play the game other than multiplayer.
Not sure how allowing some people to hop more easily (if that works for them) would impact competitive play.

Most/all KOF players would just ignore that button. Hops becoming easier for some people wouldn't break the game.
 

Static Shock

Coward
Oct 27, 2017
4,007
Florida
Why do you think that? Honest question.

Would hops become too overpowering if they became so easy to do? I'm not a KOF pro by any means, which is why I ask.
Not sure how allowing some people to hop more easily (if that works for them) would impact competitive play.

Most/all KOF players would just ignore that button. Hops becoming easier for some people wouldn't break the game.
You know what, I read that completely wrong. Never mind.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,208
Don't know if this is something they are considering but in the current official KOFXIV manga iirc they have a new format where instead of the winning character staying on and going through the team they instead have new team members fighting in the first and second round and it going to the third round if it's 1-1 after the first two rounds. This could be an interesting way to speed up the pace of matches for KOF and would also not have newer players getting OCV'd left and right.
That does sound like a drastic change to the KOF format. I don't know if it would go over well, but I wouldn't mind trying it.

I do agree that max mode needs to go, or at the very least get changed.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,346
If you're looking for SF with weapons the real answer is Koihime Enbu. No air dash. No really. Plus its got a crumple mechanic where if you hit it you gain new move properties for longer combos and since you never truly end up plus on block in this game spacing, and footsie work reigns supreme.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,910
Don't know if this is something they are considering but in the current official KOFXIV manga iirc they have a new format where instead of the winning character staying on and going through the team they instead have new team members fighting in the first and second round and it going to the third round if it's 1-1 after the first two rounds. This could be an interesting way to speed up the pace of matches for KOF and would also not have newer players getting OCV'd left and right.
Wouldn't that create the issue that CFJ ran into in making the whole game a randomizer on whether the opponent picked the right matchup for you?
 

BadWolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,222
Wouldn't that create the issue that CFJ ran into in making the whole game a randomizer on whether the opponent picked the right matchup for you?
Maybe but it would be a blind pick either way in terms of order and if you lose two matches because both of your opponent's characters were bad picks against your's then you would likely have been screwed either way.

Though I guess it would be a disadvantage to players like Xiaohai (who makes bank via Iori reverse OCVs).

Either way, they have to freshen up the formula if they want to grow the series.

I just want a new Fatal Fury :(
At this point it's looking like it very much will happen, the question is when.

KOFXV and Metal Slug are locked in for 2020 so maybe 2021 or 2022. It could be one of the four games they will release between those two years.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,346
Maybe but it would be a blind pick either way in terms of order and if you lose two matches because both of your opponent's characters were bad picks against your's then you would likely have been screwed either way.

Though I guess it would be a disadvantage to players like Xiaohai (who makes bank via Iori reverse OCVs).

Either way, they have to freshen up the formula if they want to grow the series.



At this point it's looking like it very much will happen, the question is when.

KOFXV and Metal Slug are locked in for 2020 so maybe 2021 or 2022. It could be one of the four games they will release between those two years.
So long as we see the return of Franco Bash, Gato, Sokaku, Bob Wilson or Freeman I'll be beside myself as a fanboy of the series. Loved those extra dudes. So much fun to be had with all those.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
If you're looking for SF with weapons the real answer is Koihime Enbu. No air dash. No really. Plus its got a crumple mechanic where if you hit it you gain new move properties for longer combos and since you never truly end up plus on block in this game spacing, and footsie work reigns supreme.
A crumple mechanic for longer combos sounds kinda like SFV's Crush Counters, to which GBVS also lacks an equivalent (it's no less focused on fundamentals over long combos, and though some people were dense enough to ask for air dashes in the beta thread, thankfully there's no reason to expect them in the final game when the developers stated their desire to emulate SF specifically). Looking at an overview video for Koihime Enbu, its walk speed is far faster than GBVS or even SFV, and unlike GBVS, there seems to be no recovery from running and therefore no real risk with committing to it. Having assists for every character doesn't seem very SF, same for having every normal be negative on block. Meter usage is also unconventional, 25% for EX specials being typical for a fighter but having the same apply to the universally featured assists less so, same for supers costing 75% instead of half or as with SF, all of it (citing GBVS again, meter is simpler in being for supers and only supers and costs all of it, regular specials and EX versions of them being tied to a cooldown system where each character has four specials represented by onscreen icons).


More subjectively and unrelated to mechanics, as someone who occasionally enjoys anime/anime-inspired things, its art style doesn't really do anything for me.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,346
A crumple mechanic for longer combos sounds kinda like SFV's Crush Counters, to which GBVS also lacks an equivalent (it's no less focused on fundamentals over long combos, and though some people were dense enough to ask for air dashes in the beta thread, thankfully there's no reason to expect them in the final game when the developers stated their desire to emulate SF specifically). Looking at an overview video for Koihime Enbu, its walk speed is far faster than GBVS or even SFV, and unlike GBVS, there seems to be no recovery from running and therefore no real risk with committing to it. Having assists for every character doesn't seem very SF, same for having every normal be negative on block. Meter usage is also unconventional, 25% for EX specials being typical for a fighter but having the same apply to the universally featured assists less so, same for supers costing 75% instead of half or as with SF, all of it (citing GBVS again, meter is simpler in being for supers and only supers and costs all of it, regular specials and EX versions of them being tied to a cooldown system where each character has four specials represented by onscreen icons).


More subjectively and unrelated to mechanics, as someone who occasionally enjoys anime/anime-inspired things, its art style doesn't really do anything for me.
Ever play it? Its great.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
Ever play it? Its great.
I haven't, which is why I had to rely on that overview to get a basic idea of how it worked. The last I recall ever seeing it in person (fairly certain that I saw it back then) was a BYOC area at a tournament I went to last year. As someone without any experience playing it, it reminded me more of SamSho but with quicker speed and longer combos in place of insane damage.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,429
I wish someone would make a kaiju fighting game with SamSho block/cancel mechanics. In my mind it fits perfectly with the idea of slow, lumbering monsters swinging buildings at each other.
 

sandboxgod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,720
Austin, Texas
I wonder what people would suggest as being some of the worst mechanics added to FGs? You know besides obvious things like comeback mechanics. A feature that's ideally unique to that FG.

My list might be:
- DBFZ Superdash
- Soul Calibur 6 Reversal edge
- MvCI Infinity Stones, at least when I played all the way up to Battle for the stones pre-patch), this kinda sucked but not as bad as SC6 RE and DBFZ Superdash

You know, mechanics so awful you just kinda stop playing the game and forget bout it if enough time passes
 

Katsubento

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,812
On the rock that spews lava...
I wish someone would make a kaiju fighting game with SamSho block/cancel mechanics. In my mind it fits perfectly with the idea of slow, lumbering monsters swinging buildings at each other.
My brother and I bought SNES Ultraman thinking that was the closest we would get to a fighting game at the time it released. We wanted to play SF2 at home so badly. Least we fought badly animated giant monsters.
 

Static Shock

Coward
Oct 27, 2017
4,007
Florida
I cant think of a mechanic I hated more that made me stop playing a game than superdash. I hated focus attack but it still played sf4. I never really enjoyed the combo breaker mechanic in ki... I guess that's one
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
I had no qualms with slowdown for the three RCs in the Xrd games, but Danger Time was terrible. I have far more of a problem with how brain-dead offense is in general and how ineffectual defense is overall in DBFZ than Super Dash on its own (which I still think nerfing by making a blocked SD have that player lose their turn could help fix). I really hate how clashing works in DBFZ as well (not a unique feature, but still manages to piss me off more than any other fighter to implement it). Cross Combos in BBTAG are pretty stupid, as are characters like Gordeau (still not dead, even nerfed) and Carmine who help make unga bullshit more effective than every other playstyle thanks to also locking down plenty of space at the same time.

And yes, Reversal Edge is garbage.
 
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Gegz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,840
Speaking of Guilty Gear XRD they need to get rid of :

- Having to mash to tech, rather than just holding a button
- Having to mash the buttons like that when you get staggered.
- Character specific (Well, more like "weight specific combos")
- Danger time

These are old or shitty mechanics that are not needed anymore in my opinion.

YRC is also garbage but i don't think they'll get rid of that.
 

WarRock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,429
I never played the Touhou fighting games, but Hisoutensoku is easily the fighting game with the single worst mechanic of all time/makes me not want to play it:
See, in place of what should probably be a match timer, Soku tracks the weather, cycling between "clear" weather and a long list of unusual effects—the type of shit that makes a better NFL Blitz cheat than fighting game mechanic. Here's a sampler:
  • Guard cancels are free
  • Heal half the damage you deal
  • Dashing is invincible
  • Ground teching disabled
  • Gain an extra airdash
  • KOF13's HD mode
  • Everything counterhits
  • Everything wallslams
  • Everything guard crushes
  • UNCONDITIONAL SUPER ARMOR, BLOCKING DISABLED
The weather is on a set cycle, and you can speed up transitions by playing aggressively, but there's no way to stop certain effects from turning the game into a meme scramble, or desyncing netplay if your name is Hong Meiling. Yes, this actually happens—a mechanic so bizzare and unnecessary that it breaks a totally unrelated system.
- Having to mash the buttons when you get staggered
I've hated this since XX.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
Personas being immune to pushblock in BBTAG post-patch? Yeah, screw that too.

I've admittedly gotten more into BBTAG again as of late in spite of still having complaints about the patch, but it's largely the result of forming a team focused on being lame and out of reach in the air whenever possible with one character, while laming and disorienting with teleports and side switches with the other to avoid playing the same game as hyperaggressive players.
Speaking of Guilty Gear XRD they need to get rid of :

- Having to mash to tech, rather than just holding a button
- Having to mash the buttons like that when you get staggered.
I would be very happy to be rid of these by the next GG (even BlazBlue got rid of mash recovery crap after Calamity Trigger).
 
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Static Shock

Coward
Oct 27, 2017
4,007
Florida
YRC in Xrd is wack. The slow down is counterproductive for what it was suppose to accomplish.

Danger Time is a no brainer but that's not returning so I am not worried about that.

Mashing for teching sucks....

There are some things I personally don't like for instance having to cancel dashes into FD instead of just block, the fucking stupid burst OS.

I am SUPER interested what they are going to do with the next GG. I know they said they wanna make it simplified so I am curious how far they are going to go and if they go far, how will hardcore GG players react to the game.
 

BadWolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,222
I am SUPER interested what they are going to do with the next GG. I know they said they wanna make it simplified so I am curious how far they are going to go and if they go far, how will hardcore GG players react to the game.
The hardcore will play it either way I think.

The question is if the changes will bring in a new/larger audience. GG does have a rep for being complex, that doesn't go away overnight.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,978
The hardcore will play it either way I think.

The question is if the changes will bring in a new/larger audience. GG does have a rep for being complex, that doesn't go away overnight.
GGXrd in all its iterations is much simpler than mainline BlazBlue as of BBCPE and BBCF, and people still perceive it as being intimidatingly complex anyway. I've said it before in other threads, but personally I believe that the lack of GG's appeal to the more casual, mainstream audience that BB found success with could potentially be the result of neither the art style/overall aesthetic nor the rock and roll theme resonating with a wider audience as much as the more traditional anime look and vibe of BB (and while it's still Ishiwatari handling the music for both, there's much more variety in BB's sound compared to a lot of his work on GG).
 

MidweekCoyote

Banned
Mar 23, 2018
384
Considering there's no Tekken 7 OT of any kind ( :( ), I hope it's okay to ask here.

I'm trying to consistently execute Jack-7's Windup Uppercut in order to use it after Jackhammer. But I'm having trouble with it standalone (using a DS4). 70% of the time I end up using Debugger. I can't enter hfc slower as it ends up being too slow but the fast input seemingly makes me miss a direction button in the process. How do I pull it off consistently?

Any help appreciated.
 

Reanimatoin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
905
Cleethorpes UK
Considering there's no Tekken 7 OT of any kind ( :( ), I hope it's okay to ask here.

I'm trying to consistently execute Jack-7's Windup Uppercut in order to use it after Jackhammer. But I'm having trouble with it standalone (using a DS4). 70% of the time I end up using Debugger. I can't enter hfc slower as it ends up being too slow but the fast input seemingly makes me miss a direction button in the process. How do I pull it off consistently?

Any help appreciated.
 

lazybones18

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,495
Booked my flight/hotel for Evo weekend. Already got my tickets for the event, so I'm ready. This is gonna be so much fun