Fighting Games Era |OT| Two-Button Dashes Are Great

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,978
Montreal
Thinking of getting into SF. Only fighting game that I seriously play is Tekken. Anyone got any tips to make the transition from 3D easier? I know literally nothing about the game. Also how do the combos work in this game? Thanks.

I understand that movement isn’t as deep as in Tekken so I’m slightly disappointed as movement is one of my favorite things about Tekken. Being able to create distance and bait whiffs with KBD is very satisfying.
I don't have much experience in SF besides casual but why do you think movement is not a big thing? it definitely is. Footsies and spacing are legit good strategies in any fighting game including SF. Some emphasizes it more
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,591
Michigan
Movement without dashes is way faster in most Street Fighter games than Tekken so don't worry. To start, find what are the moves reaching and what are the moves interrupting with your characters (on SF5 with Cammy reaching would be stand MK and interrupting would be stand MP). Most interrupting moves are cancelable (think T7 Akuma down 2 cancel to hadoken). You won't get big combo opening from whiff punish, just touches to confirm into special to get damage and positioning (imagine 1, 1, 2 for the mishimas doing the same).

As for combos, it's not that that hard if you take recent episodes. You find a character you like, find what combos are and practice.
Interesting. Thanks for the reply.
I don't have much experience in SF besides casual but why do you think movement is not a big thing? it definitely is. Footsies and spacing are legit good strategies in any fighting game including SF. Some emphasizes it more
Not as big, which is definitely true. Movement, in my opinion, is the most important thing in Tekken. There are countless ways find an opening just with backdashing, sidestepping and sidewalking in Tekken. Players with better execution are also able to move quickly and safely. I don’t know, maybe I’ll have a different view once I learn the game’s mechanics better, but I definitely feel it’s not as important in SF.
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
 

Raw Sauce

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
588
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.

PREACH
 

remz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,865
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
bruh this post is so good lmao

same thing with melee
 

Numb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,796
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
 

lucebuce

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,971
Pakistan
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,978
Montreal
Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

Not as big, which is definitely true. Movement, in my opinion, is the most important thing in Tekken. There are countless ways find an opening just with backdashing, sidestepping and sidewalking in Tekken. Players with better execution are also able to move quickly and safely. I don’t know, maybe I’ll have a different view once I learn the game’s mechanics better, but I definitely feel it’s not as important in SF.
I'd say it is as big but just different. In 2d fighters you have jump ins instead of side step.
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
Well said lmao
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,497
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.


That is SUCH an accurate description of movement in Tekken lol
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,683
Houston, TX
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
Max once described Tekken like Korean BBQ, & that may actuality be on the money. Most food at restaurants you just eat, but Korean BBQ has you put some effort in to prepare the essentials (the meat) yourself. It’s still delicious mind you (especially if you find a great Korean BBQ restaurant), but it’s not exactly effortless regarding the basics.
 

KyouG

Member
Oct 26, 2017
134
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
This is so true it hurts.
 

Mamoniadas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
629
Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

Not as big, which is definitely true. Movement, in my opinion, is the most important thing in Tekken. There are countless ways find an opening just with backdashing, sidestepping and sidewalking in Tekken. Players with better execution are also able to move quickly and safely. I don’t know, maybe I’ll have a different view once I learn the game’s mechanics better, but I definitely feel it’s not as important in SF.
movement is extremely important in 2D games. It doesnt have as many options for movement but that reevaluates the weight of it's existing mechanics. walking is actually useful as its used for pressuring and creating whiffs, (think a microwalk back to make something whiff instead of two full dashes) and jumping essentially lets u skip ranges at the cost of losing your positioning and damage similar to sw/ss. you also have more options at various ranges in 2D games that arent just movement.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,591
Michigan
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
Not to sound like an ass but reading this would make someone think that you’re a complete beginner. Movement is only a problem at lower levels of Tekken. Plenty of good players don’t even KBD, they do the more lenient backdash into sidestep cancel method. I like Tekken’s movement system because it allows the player to express themselves in more ways than you can think of. I didn’t even realize people were intimidated by Tekken’s movement. This is such a foreign concept to me.
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
Not to sound like an ass but reading this would make someone think that you’re a complete beginner. Movement is only a problem at lower levels of Tekken. Plenty of good players don’t even KBD, they do the more lenient backdash into sidestep cancel method. I like Tekken’s movement system because it allows the player to express themselves in more ways than you can think of. I didn’t even realize people were intimidated by Tekken’s movement. This is such a foreign concept to me.
Tekken players have convinced themselves that Tekken movement s so normal, good, and necessary that just, like, being able to move in other games is a foreign concept. Tekken movement is so good that a company that makes fightsticks has created a dual input method and has spent most of its time advertising how much easier it makes tekken to play.

Annnd, sure, consider me a beginner, because that's the fallback Tekken defense. Oh you don't like the movement in Tekken, they must not know how to play! I'm not intimidated by Tekken's movement. I think its movement is inferior to every 3D fighter on the market. And several that aren't on the market anymore.

I'd compare it to Tomb Raider on PSX. Functional for its time. Something I appreciated growing up, but nothing I want to spend a lot of time with ever again.

All this to say, nobody really talks about movement in other fighters, even though it's always a super important aspect in literally every fighting game, because no other fighter makes you fight the controls to move effectively.
 
Jun 22, 2019
586
How's Samurai Shodown online? playable or not worth it?
If you're on PS4 and in the US (or if you live in Japan) it's fine. Basically same as any other anime fighter. I'd say it even holds up just slightly better when coast to coast than DBFZ (definitely holds up better between different countries but that still usually sucks), but it might be worse than DBFZ at close range, but that's my personal estimations.
Can't speak for other regions at all cause I'm not in them.

As for Tekken movement, I gotta say as somebody who never got into Tekken, it does not look particularly appealing.
That being said, some people make that same claim about Melee wavedashing and I love wavedashing.
 

MikeBreezy92

Member
Oct 28, 2019
179
Movement feels super important in tekken because the only way TO move is making your character look like they're stuck in SF5 rollback loop with its antiquated system.

You don't have to think about movement too hard in most games. It's like somebody who needs an oxygen tank saying breathing is super important to live, and everybody else is like...yeah, we know.
This is a terrible take....
 

MikeBreezy92

Member
Oct 28, 2019
179
I accept that not everybody agrees with me. Tekken is, afterall, an extremely popular game.
I mean yeah because every fighting game has a over-complicated aspect to it. To call something "antiquated" means it doesn't belong but when Tekken got rid of its advanced movement people didn't care for the game that much. Its not antiquated just different.
 

remz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,865
Max once described Tekken like Korean BBQ, & that may actuality be on the money. Most food at restaurants you just eat, but Korean BBQ has you put some effort in to prepare the essentials (the meat) yourself. It’s still delicious mind you (especially if you find a great Korean BBQ restaurant), but it’s not exactly effortless regarding the basics.
Tekken isn't korean bbq lmao. it's cooking at home without internet, or a recipe while your cat runs figure 8s around your legs
 
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skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
I mean yeah because every fighting game has a over-complicated aspect to it. To call something "antiquated" means it doesn't belong but when Tekken got rid of its advanced movement people didn't care for the game that much. Its not antiquated just different.
Not gonna touch that T4 jab, since there was a fuckton wrong with that game outside of changing its movement. /shrug

Antiquated means old, outdated, which is exactly what /I/ feel when I play Tekken. No other fighting game do I feel actively fights me trying to move, to learn. /I/ feel it communicates information to the player poorly. /I/ feel like the only way to know how to move, sidestep, dash in Tekken is to study. Why wasn't I able to sidestep this move? It has to be explained, per move, per character, per string, for every character in the game. I don't feel like this is true in any other fighting game. I feel like walking is useless, and in order to get around you have to (insert previous post here). I think movement should be the easiest, most basic, most white bread shit in a fighting game. I should be able to explain how to do every aspect of basic movement in one sentence.

It's FEELS old, which is different from just being old. There's tons of old shit in fighting games, that's not my problem. Most other fighting games are doing it better. I have no problem with advanced movement being a feature, but I think people are majorly incorrect when they assume at what level you need to learn how to do more than Tekken's shitty walk and non-canceled backdash.
 
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jacket

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,308
Not gonna touch that T4 jab, since there was a fuckton wrong with that game outside of changing its movement. /shrug

Antiquated means old, outdated, which is exactly what /I/ feel when I play Tekken. No other fighting game do I feel actively fights me trying to move, to learn. /I/ feel it communicates information to the player poorly. /I/ feel like the only way to know how to move, sidestep, dash in Tekken is to study. Why wasn't I able to sidestep this move? It has to be explained, per move, per character, per string, for every character in the game. I don't feel like this is true in any other fighting game. I feel like walking is useless, and in order to get around you have to (insert previous post here). I think movement should be the easiest, most basic, most white bread shit in a fighting game. I should be able to explain how to do every aspect of basic movement in one sentence.

It's FEELS old, which is different from just being old. There's tons of old shit in fighting games, that's not my problem. Most other fighting games are doing it better. I have no problem with advanced movement being a feature, but I think people are majorly incorrect when they assume at what level you need to learn how to do more than Tekken's shitty walk and non-canceled backdash.
Understanding and/or being good at movement in Tekken still doesn't make me like it. It still makes me have to exert more energy just to be able to move efficiently. I have never had to put in that much work to move the way I wanted to in any other fighting game series that I've ever played.
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
Understanding and/or being good at movement in Tekken still doesn't make me like it. It still makes me have to exert more energy just to be able to move efficiently. I have never had to put in that much work to move the way I wanted to in any other fighting game series that I've ever played.
Completely agree. I've been playing Tekken since 2. I like it the least of all major 3D fighters because controlling the game has always felt worse than its contemporaries to me. I know how to KBD, I know how to wavedash, etc. It always feels as if I'm battling for control of my character instead of being in control. I'm exerting way too much effort just getting my character to do what I want and I'm not able to enjoy the other stuff that I DO love about the game.
 

Raw Sauce

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
588
Understanding and/or being good at movement in Tekken still doesn't make me like it. It still makes me have to exert more energy just to be able to move efficiently. I have never had to put in that much work to move the way I wanted to in any other fighting game series that I've ever played.
I don't know why people don't understand this. Whenever someone tries to argue against complaints about Tekken's movement, people try to tell you that you must not be able to do the movement or that you don't even need it until xyz level because you can just hit buttons. But no one ever says that Tekken's standard movement is usable which is the entire point. You can either do advanced movement or not really do much movement at all. That's poor design, no matter how dope the rest of the game is.
Completely agree. I've been playing Tekken since 2. I like it the least of all major 3D fighters because controlling the game has always felt worse than its contemporaries to me. I know how to KBD, I know how to wavedash, etc. It always feels as if I'm battling for control of my character instead of being in control. I'm exerting way too much effort just getting my character to do what I want and I'm not able to enjoy the other stuff that I DO love about the game.
LOL, I crack up every time someone says we don't know how to do this having played you in Tekken off and on for almost a decade and we both do it whenever we play but still hate doing it.
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,978
Montreal
All this talk about Tekken movement made me realize how this is not an issue with Soul Calibur, a franchise made by the same company.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,945
When do they usually anounce the side tournaments?
No clue. People come out the woodwork for weeks sometimes saying g they'll have a setup sometimes.

After the battle for the strongest ghetto ass streams that was just drunk angry commentary comin at you raw with no filter on a dreamcast in an apt where you sit on the fucking floor to back at evo! True fact those streams pulled more in donations s than the tekken 7 payout lol. People want that marvel . We wont get raw commentary unless yipes redubs it later but marvel is back on the main stage baby!

I still remember the stretch goal of yipes will eat the worm in the tequila bottle and he promised he was gonna make out with that thing like it was his date at prom when he did it. Shit was raw and awesome on commentary.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,945
Okay it's the 20 year anniversary so mvc2 at evo is an 8 man Invitational.

We know...
Yipes
Justin Wong
Duc Do
Sanford Kelly

...are In. I'm hoping the other 4 are
Neo
Clockw0rk
Fanatiq
Either Smoothviper or Megagman Steve

Viper is better but steve vs fanatiq is a rivalry I live for. Plus you gotta have Neo Clockw0rk...unless clock's company ties to nway means he cant compete in other games for some reason.
Still that lineup would be damned fine and also have decent variety for mvc2 even though its damned distilled on top teams now.

I am so pumped my favorite mvc2 player ducdo is in. He is the reason I run a spiral cable team. He uses sentinel and I like glitched juggernaut on mine and sorta just resort to sentinel if I have to. Hes better by far but cable jugs is damned good too plus it let's me use less bars for a kill off air hyper viper so it works well enough.

Fuck I'm hype. I hope this shit is all first to 5 in each match with grand finals ft10. I want the full hype.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Anyone with tabs on early copies of Granblue know if the JP menu situation. Eng text based on console settings and what not. Assuming not with the timed release difference but you never know.
 

shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,945
More good news from battle for the grid. Its had ggpo and crossplay since day 1 but due to sony not allowing crossplay until changing their policy very late 2019 players were seperate...UNTIL NOW!
 

Thomasorus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
42
/I/ feel it communicates information to the player poorly. /I/ feel like the only way to know how to move, sidestep, dash in Tekken is to study. Why wasn't I able to sidestep this move? It has to be explained, per move, per character, per string, for every character in the game. I don't feel like this is true in any other fighting game.
Very personal take and a bit off-topic

I don't want to feel dismissive about how your feel (your post was a great feedback) but I think it's interesting how people want reasons for things all the time, not just in fighting games. I get people might enjoy having the big picture and wanting it to be explained to them. But sometimes there's no place or time to do so and you just have to do things without understanding them until it clicks, ofthen because you've amassed enough knowledge to understand it by yourself. I feel learning by doing is often dismissed as we're doing more and more academic/theorical studying instead of practical. It's the same with a new hire: you can't explain to them why the company works this way all the time or you'd never work. So you just ask to do as told, and they'll get it later.

In the case of fighting games, obscure things are now analyzed, frame data is available so everything has an explanation. But is knowing the explanation make you a better player and allows you to have more fun? It might to an extent, but it might be experience that will make you a better player. In this situation, explaining sidesteps won't change anything: if you can't sidestep this move, you can't. That's just a rule of the game, make a note about it and apply it. Sometimes intellectualizing it won't make it easier, questioning the why and what too. It's even the opposite. You may see the big picture but you might not be able to memorize little notes about the game.

In this case, who knows the game better and has more fun? Is it the one who can explain why you can't sidestep moves, or the one that can't explain but knows how to sidestep each move?
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
Very personal take and a bit off-topic

I don't want to feel dismissive about how your feel (your post was a great feedback) but I think it's interesting how people want reasons for things all the time, not just in fighting games. I get people might enjoy having the big picture and wanting it to be explained to them. But sometimes there's no place or time to do so and you just have to do things without understanding them until it clicks, ofthen because you've amassed enough knowledge to understand it by yourself. I feel learning by doing is often dismissed as we're doing more and more academic/theorical studying instead of practical. It's the same with a new hire: you can't explain to them why the company works this way all the time or you'd never work. So you just ask to do as told, and they'll get it later.

In the case of fighting games, obscure things are now analyzed, frame data is available so everything has an explanation. But is knowing the explanation make you a better player and allows you to have more fun? It might to an extent, but it might be experience that will make you a better player. In this situation, explaining sidesteps won't change anything: if you can't sidestep this move, you can't. That's just a rule of the game, make a note about it and apply it. Sometimes intellectualizing it won't make it easier, questioning the why and what too. It's even the opposite. You may see the big picture but you might not be able to memorize little notes about the game.

In this case, who knows the game better and has more fun? Is it the one who can explain why you can't sidestep moves, or the one that can't explain but knows how to sidestep each move?
I think, as far as movement and game logic, it's extremely important to be able to parse why. I think being able to study things like how to punish specific moves is very important. But when you're talking about a roster of 50 characters with upwards of 50+ moves each, and you have to just...KNOW how to get by moves specifically in every scenario, it creates a lot of frustration. In Tekken, it's just not demonstrated. I can't sidestep during a lot of strings. Or, maybe I can, but not with this character because their sidestep is slower. Or maybe I can, but into the background instead of the foreground, or vice versa. It's not about knowing the explanation, it's about being able to tell, clearly, WHY something happened. In a similar scenario in VF or SC, or even DoA to a lesser extent, I can generally know WHY something happened, but in Tekken, it's not communicated clearly, and so, as a player that DOES want to get better, it is far more difficult, far more obtuse, because knowledge of every character's kit becomes a specialty when you want to get around certain stuff. I can't learn by doing since, by virtue of how Tekken's movement works, there are tons of variables to account for. I think "You just can't sidestep this move" is a terrible explanation, because it leaves no room for application anywhere else, lol. It might work when you have just one character, or just several dozen moves, but when you've got a roster and movelist the size of Tekken's, that doesn't work for me.

And I get that there's an appeal to this. But it doesn't add anything to the game to me personally for this stuff to be communicated to the player in the way that it has traditionally been done in Tekken. I don't think you should really need to explain movement. The use of a sidestep, of a sidewalk, etc, should be clear, and they should work in ways that feel natural. For me, everything about Tekken's movement is counter intuitive and frustrating.

More good news from battle for the grid. Its had ggpo and crossplay since day 1 but due to sony not allowing crossplay until changing their policy very late 2019 players were seperate...UNTIL NOW!
This is such good shit. I've been messing around with this game, and it really reminds me of my time growing up piecing together games like MSH and XvS. So good.
 
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shaowebb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,945
Welp...now that this bad boy is on ps4 I may bother playing it on stick sometime just to have a reason to nod an old stick into a ranger stick lol.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,591
Michigan
I still find it absurd that people take issue with something like Tekken's movement system, of all things. Not the power creep that started in Season 2 and only got worse in S3, not the balance issues, or even the supbar online experience, but movement. This is the first I've heard people complain about it. Movement is what makes Tekken so great for me. It's like not playing 2D fighters because of meter management or something equally silly. Still, it's interesting to get others' perspective on this.
 

skillzilla81

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
I still find it absurd that people take issue with something like Tekken's movement system, of all things. Not the power creep that started in Season 2 and only got worse in S3, not the balance issues, or even the supbar online experience, but movement. This is the first I've heard people complain about it. Movement is what makes Tekken so great for me. It's like not playing 2D fighters because of meter management or something equally silly. Still, it's interesting to get others' perspective on this.
I have an issue with those things, too, but I don't care about that as much since I don't like touching Tekken.

And I only said anything because movement was brought up. :P
 

Solidus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
464
Anyone with tabs on early copies of Granblue know if the JP menu situation. Eng text based on console settings and what not. Assuming not with the timed release difference but you never know.
Not sure if you found the answer yet, but go for the HK version. It's been confirmed to have English menus and subs in a couple places, such as Xian's stream here. The HK store/account setup process is also easier to navigate than JP since you can choose English as your language when setting up your HK account.

Sp00ky has confirmed that the JP version doesn't have English.