Final Fantasy VII Remake General Discussion Thread [Open Spoilers]

Should this thread contain open spoilers?

  • Yes

    Votes: 989 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 241 19.6%

  • Total voters
    1,230

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,790
France
Yeah, with how Midgar is, I don't see how they would do the original three act structure with the size and scope of the remake. There's just so much in disc one alone. Ending at Nibelheim may not be a bad idea but how is the final part of that story structure done? Do you go in and then fight the fake Sephiroth in the basement or do you fight ShinRa? It's kinda hard to see a clear path to ending it there.
Jenova-SOMETHING.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
Yeah, with how Midgar is, I don't see how they would do the original three act structure with the size and scope of the remake. There's just so much in disc one alone. Ending at Nibelheim may not be a bad idea but how is the final part of that story structure done? Do you go in and then fight the fake Sephiroth in the basement or do you fight ShinRa? It's kinda hard to see a clear path to ending it there.
I actually meant ending with them arriving at Nibelheim - it would be a cliffhanger. Going in and exploring it would be the start of game 3. And yeah, I agree that it wouldn't work in a traditional JRPG ending fashion, as I'm not sure what the big final dungeon/boss would be. Maybe the stuff in Cosmo Canyon could be heavily expanded?

The problem is that this would be a split necessitated by the realities of game development, not necessarily one that would be conducive to traditional story structure.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,459
I still hope the game just lets you control any party member outside of combat. Wanting to focus on playing Barret or Tifa instead of Cloud in combat but needing to switch from Cloud at the start of every single fight would be dumb especially since Barret/Tifa/Aerith will have animations for out of combat anyway since I am pretty sure they follow Cloud around visible on screen and don't just appear in combat
But who would destroy the cobwebs.

 

Aly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,124
I want to be able to switch the lead party member only for the hilarity of seeing Red run around trying to talk to people.
 

NateDog

Member
Jan 8, 2018
494
I still hope the game just lets you control any party member outside of combat. Wanting to focus on playing Barret or Tifa instead of Cloud in combat but needing to switch from Cloud at the start of every single fight would be dumb especially since Barret/Tifa/Aerith will have animations for out of combat anyway since I am pretty sure they follow Cloud around visible on screen and don't just appear in combat
I don't have a source right now but I felt sure I remembered reading someone confirming you won't be able to change the party leader outside of battle.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,869
Canada
Sorry, but you two are wildly underestimating the scale of the project here. You just have to look at the map and remember that the entire first part is set in the little black circle on the Eastern continent:


Or, y'know, that it's an entire planet. Just think about the number of unique locations and the size of the traversable space that we got in FFXV (that is, not much, with only 2 open towns), and about the approach of major expansion that they've shown so far. Even with next-gen exclusive SSD loading and AI-assisted development techniques, the idea of building such a huge - and, more importantly, VARIED, world - in a single game is highly unlikely, especially when the whole point of making multiple games is to spread the work around to make the project more feasible.

They might surprise me, but I think we're probably looking at a 4-part saga here. The exceptionally massive Kalm-To-Northern Crater act needs to be two games, and I think a good mid-point would be Nibelheim. It's right around the middle, and gives the second game a nice setup where you start with the flashback to Nibelheim's destruction, and end with the massive WTF moment of arriving to find the town (seemingly) perfectly fine and intact.
I'm sure there will be additional things, but even in terms of the original's gameplay, the time on the eastern continent is less than the time in Midgar. The world is sparcely populated and has small pockets of towns around it.

The Mideel Continent and the majority of the northern continent can't be seen in Act 2, so those don't need to be done. (Also Goblin, Cactuar, KOTR Islands)
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
I'm sure there will be additional things, but even in terms of the original's gameplay, the time on the eastern continent is less than the time in Midgar. The world is sparcely populated and has small pockets of towns around it.

The Mideel Continent and the majority of the northern continent can't be seen in Act 2, so those don't need to be done. (Also Goblin, Cactuar, KOTR Islands)
The gameplay doesn't matter (especially since that will almost certainly be expanded in ways we can't forsee), it's the effort involved in creating the huge world. Even without the places you mentioned, the world would still be too massive for a single modern game.

Like, if you take a look at FFXV, they were able to make a moderately-sized open world with some dungeons, only 2 major towns (Lestallum and Altissia), and the additional dungeons like Niflheim and Insomnia. Trying to make all of the second act from Kalm to the Northern Crater in one game would need a much more expansive open world, enormous and detailed renditions of Junon and the Gold Saucer, and more in the way of smaller towns and dungeons (Kalm, Fort Condor, Costa Del Sol, North Corel, Gongaga, Cosmo Canyon, Nibelheim, Rocket Town, Bone Village and the Crater), all of which will need to be realistically expanded (not just a street with 5 houses, for example) and especially varied and different in visual style, which just adds even more work (no constant repeating of assets here). Even with things like the engine and battle system in place I don't really see how it can be done unless they decided to just hire a team of a thousand people and make something that needs to sell 10 million copies just to break even.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
The gameplay doesn't matter (especially since that will almost certainly be expanded in ways we can't forsee), it's the effort involved in creating the huge world. Even without the places you mentioned, the world would still be too massive for a single modern game.

Like, if you take a look at FFXV, they were able to make a moderately-sized open world with some dungeons, only 2 major towns (Lestallum and Altissia), and the additional dungeons like Niflheim and Insomnia. Trying to make all of the second act from Kalm to the Northern Crater in one game would need a much more expansive open world, enormous and detailed renditions of Junon and the Gold Saucer, and more in the way of smaller towns and dungeons (Kalm, Fort Condor, Costa Del Sol, North Corel, Gongaga, Cosmo Canyon, Nibelheim, Rocket Town, Bone Village and the Crater), all of which will need to be realistically expanded (not just a street with 5 houses, for example) and especially varied and different in visual style, which just adds even more work (no constant repeating of assets here). Even with things like the engine and battle system in place I don't really see how it can be done unless they decided to just hire a team of a thousand people and make something that needs to sell 10 million copies just to break even.
They could just not go the XV route
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,997


This quote, from Barrett I believe, means to imply that holy wasn't working as intended and would've resulted in a world ending catastrophe. This is where Aeris, as the heiress of the Cetra, decides to overpower the lifestream, intervene and give humanity another chance. The only thing left open, in my mind, is whether or not people made the most of that and survived past the next few centuries into the flash forward with Nanaki.
It's Nanaki who says this, but I think it may be a mistranslation or something. I imagine he means "is not having the intended effect" or "is not working" makes a lot more sense than "is having the opposite effect." The blue holy wave clearly sweeps over Midgar and stops the damage that was being done to the city, but it is ineffective because Meteor is too close to the planet. I always thought it was the lifestream that came out and pushed the Meteor away far enough for holy to destroy it.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
They could just not go the XV route
I assume you mean not doing an open world, but even then there would still be a bunch of huge open areas (I'm certain that they'll at least go the XII route) and all the huge and detailed locations I mentioned. And that's ignoring that an open world would fit better with their approach of expanding everything.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
I assume you mean not doing an open world, but even then there would still be a bunch of huge open areas (I'm certain that they'll at least go the XII route) and all the huge and detailed locations I mentioned. And that's ignoring that an open world would fit better with their approach of expanding everything.
XII would be fine imo but yeah a kalm to north crater single game would be nonsense lol.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
The blue holy wave clearly sweeps over Midgar and stops the damage that was being done to the city, but it is ineffective because Meteor is too close to the planet. I always thought it was the lifestream that came out and pushed the Meteor away far enough for holy to destroy it.
This is how I see it as well.
Holy is not able to focus its power because Meteor is too close so Aerith commands the lifestream to push Meteor back.
Are these post-wiki reading answers
What in the game indicates Holy can't work unless Meteor is at a certain distance
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
2,286
Nomura do something and show a new 3 minutes long trailer or whatever it's been a month almost now ok.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
Nah, I'd still stay faithful - especially since there would be the silver lining of the devs being able to devote more time to creating and balancing their movesets.
I don't know how much balance individual movesets need to / will be in this game. Assuming most of the differences between characters will be stylistic. Mash square with [vincent or barret] to shoot.

Also give Vincent Deathblow as his innate ATB fill ability pls. He deserves it.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
I don't know how much balance individual movesets need to / will be in this game. Assuming most of the differences between characters will be stylistic. Mash square with [vincent or barret] to shoot.

Also give Vincent Deathblow as his innate ATB fill ability pls. He deserves it.
They've explicitly said that there will be enemies designed to be fought by certain characters. So they will need to balance them, and it won't just be movesets, it'll be all the enemies you fight. And there's more than just short range or long range attacks, they'll have unique abilities like Steelskin. Their differences are more than stylistic. Like maybe Vincent will share Barret's sitting but have more offensive or status change abilities vs defence buffs. It'll probably be pretty complex, and who knows what they could do with some extra time.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
They've explicitly said that there will be enemies designed to be fought by certain characters. So they will need to balance them, and it won't just be movesets, it'll be all the enemies you fight. And there's more than just short range or long range attacks, they'll have unique abilities like Steelskin. Their differences are more than stylistic. Like maybe Vincent will share Barret's sitting but have more offensive or status change abilities vs defence buffs. It'll probably be pretty complex, and who knows what they could do with some extra time.
Enemies being designed to be fought by certain characters is easier since you don't need to balance whether or not each character is capable of dealing with each enemy. They could spend time figuring out 'will x, y, z be able to deal with this enemy?' but if the intended behavior is 'just switch to Yuffie' then seems unneeded.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
Enemies being designed to be fought by certain characters is easier since you don't need to balance whether or not each character is capable of dealing with each enemy. They could spend time figuring out 'will x, y, z be able to deal with this enemy?' but if the intended behavior is 'just switch to Yuffie' then seems unneeded.
Except they won't be able to do that, since you'll only have 3 members in your party at once so sometimes you can't switch to Yuffie. Thigh maybe they'll manage a mix of long and short-range characters? But you might have a point - I feel like this is a discussion that needs to wait until Match, so we can actually play the full game and get an idea of how they balance the combat system.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263


Except they won't be able to do that, since you'll only have 3 members in your party at once so sometimes you can't switch to Yuffie. Thigh maybe they'll manage a mix of long and short-range characters? But you might have a point - I feel like this is a discussion that needs to wait until Match, so we can actually play the full game and get an idea of how they balance the combat system.
I guess a common criticism (though often not said in critique) of the original was that everyone was basically the same aside from limits thanks to the flexibility materia provided. I could see them establishing some hard-counters to address that but making everyone different and fun in the way they play should be enough to encourage using different members. Maybe they just want to make sure certain people are used to justify voice acting costs lol.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441



I guess a common criticism (though often not said in critique) of the original was that everyone was basically the same aside from limits thanks to the flexibility materia provided. I could see them establishing some hard-counters to address that but making everyone different and fun in the way they play should be enough to encourage using different members. Maybe they just want to make sure certain people are used to justify voice acting costs lol.
Well even in the original they had stuff like Vincent and Barret doing full damage from the back row. And we've seen stuff like Cloud completely unable to hit flying enemies. I'm looking forward to it.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263


Well even in the original they had stuff like Vincent and Barret doing full damage from the back row. And we've seen stuff like Cloud completely unable to hit flying enemies. I'm looking forward to it.
I love back row 255 accuracy Deathblow Vincent. Don't make me wait SE ;_;. And yeah I like those individual roles so far. Frees up a materia slot if Long Range isn't around, at least.
 

Adonais

Member
Oct 29, 2017
90
Metaverse
It's Nanaki who says this, but I think it may be a mistranslation or something. I imagine he means "is not having the intended effect" or "is not working" makes a lot more sense than "is having the opposite effect." The blue holy wave clearly sweeps over Midgar and stops the damage that was being done to the city, but it is ineffective because Meteor is too close to the planet. I always thought it was the lifestream that came out and pushed the Meteor away far enough for holy to destroy it.
I can see that too. But do you agree that it was Aeris controlling the lifestream at that point, or am I just reading too much into it in order to find meaning in her death?

I love the sort of visual storytelling that Square went for with the ending, though I know it was just a product of the time. It was basically a short silent film, with very abstract design but that's because voice acting wasn't very common at the time. It's almost like the Twin Peaks season 3, episode 8 version of Final Fantasy. The remake will go far more in depth, and there will be less left open to interpretation this time. I believe SquareEnix is still capable of moments of brilliance, but they ain't got Lynchballs.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441



I love back row 255 accuracy Deathblow Vincent. Don't make me wait SE ;_;. And yeah I like those individual roles so far. Frees up a materia slot if Long Range isn't around, at least.
Twist: Long Range is still around, and it gives Cloud Blade Beam for his standard attack. Tifa becomes One Punch Woman.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,441
We have seen Cloud use air attacks against enemies in the concert trailer.


@00.07 seconds.
And in the E3 presentation they showed him unable to hit some flying creatures just before the player switched to Barret.


Go to 6:40.

At best you might be able to hit them as Cloud if they go low enough, but it's clear Barret will be better.

Edit: realised they were actually stationary sentries, but same thing - Cloud's ability to jump-attack only goes so far.
 
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Mikey Jr.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,325
Heh, never got this part. Cloud is standing in 2 feet of water, but then he drops Aerith into 50 feet of water.

Reminds me of Jurassic Park where the trex busts out of the cage and he is standing on flat ground, but then all of a sudden allen and the kids go through that same part, and now the drop is 100 feet.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,263
Heh, never got this part. Cloud is standing in 2 feet of water, but then he drops Aerith into 50 feet of water.

Reminds me of Jurassic Park where the trex busts out of the cage and he is standing on flat ground, but then all of a sudden allen and the kids go through that same part, and now the drop is 100 feet.
Mikey please it's called art.
 

Genesius

Member
Nov 2, 2018
956
People expecting them to Midgar up every single town in this game are going to be disappointed. I wouldn’t be surprised if they make the open world more linear as well. There’s only a handful of instances where returning to an old area later in the game (that isn’t story dictated) gets you a new item or something. They are going to streamline that stuff.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
327
I actually meant ending with them arriving at Nibelheim - it would be a cliffhanger. Going in and exploring it would be the start of game 3. And yeah, I agree that it wouldn't work in a traditional JRPG ending fashion, as I'm not sure what the big final dungeon/boss would be. Maybe the stuff in Cosmo Canyon could be heavily expanded?

The problem is that this would be a split necessitated by the realities of game development, not necessarily one that would be conducive to traditional story structure.
Nothing big happens in Nibelheim ( In the original game ).
While you can expand on it, it would be better to include it in CD2 so that you can round it up nicely.

Starting ep. 3 with Rocket town and the introduction of a new Char is also pretty nice i'd say.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,997
I can see that too. But do you agree that it was Aeris controlling the lifestream at that point, or am I just reading too much into it in order to find meaning in her death?

I love the sort of visual storytelling that Square went for with the ending, though I know it was just a product of the time. It was basically a short silent film, with very abstract design but that's because voice acting wasn't very common at the time. It's almost like the Twin Peaks season 3, episode 8 version of Final Fantasy. The remake will go far more in depth, and there will be less left open to interpretation this time. I believe SquareEnix is still capable of moments of brilliance, but they ain't got Lynchballs.
I think aeris is directing the lifestream. I agree with that. Though why she didn’t just do that earlier is up to you. :)

No I really think she summoned holy. Couldn’t work because of sephiroth. He gets defeated and holy rushes to defend the planet. Isn’t effective so aeris helps.

There is an ecoterrorist interpretation which is consistent with the themes of the game that holy was destroying midgar and not meteor since Midgar was also killing the planet but I don’t believe this is consistent with the imagery of the ending though it is with the text. Or part of it. Red also implies meteor is going to destroy the entire planet so clearly the crisis is meteor, not midgar.
 
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Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,127
Are these post-wiki reading answers
What in the game indicates Holy can't work unless Meteor is at a certain distance
Holy sweeping through looks like it is clearly affecting Meteor but with Meteor already so low imo Holy just can't destroy Meteor quickly enough or focus itself under meteor so its just a thin layer being pushed aside. Aerith with the Lifestream pushes the Meteor back and stops it from crashing into the planet and Holy destroys it. That is how I see.