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Final Fantasy VII Remake State of Play 2019 Trailer; More to come in June

Oct 25, 2017
7,124
FR
I dunno about you, but I regularly see KH2FM praised for its action gameplay. You're entitled to your opinion but you haven't really explained your stance either or talked about your experience. What KH games are you even talking about when making this comparison (some of them have pretty big gameplay differences from one another), and what games are you comparing them to when you would say they get more in-depth later where KH doesn't?
The main ones. 1/2/3 (haven't played 2.8 or whatever the one with Aqua was named, and I don't think the other spinoffs matter).
I'm not arguing other games in the genre get really deeper over time mind you, I was just replying to someone that was saying that. JRPG and ARPG in their vast majority have the same system throughout the whole game and don't really become deeper with more options, just get some more variation (and no, some harder enemies don't make the game deeper). Which is kind of my issue with what has been shown.
Sorry your not really getting any substantial answers.

KH combat gets deeper as you unlock new abilities, magic, and other tools (there’s a lot of different stuff depending on the game you play). You have a lot of options and a lot of ways to show self experesion though combat. People will even go though the better KH games at LV1, which I think shows how skillful you can be in these games. I think its pretty compatible to turn based rpgs. The core combat doesn’t change but you get new tools to experiment with as you go along. Also perhaps I’m just crazy, but I often hear lots of people talking about KH’s combat very seriously.

FFXV also had some really interesting depth to it. I think its a little disingenuous of people to say the combat is simple because your holding a button down to attack. Considering the focus on tilting the directional stick to change your attack type as well as weapon switching, it actually worked pretty well. People could also progress in many different ways making at least the early game very different for different plays.
But that's my point (see above): you get some new and/or different tools, but the combat doesn't become deeper or really more meaningful. I'm not sure what you mean by "self expression through combat", as this is a term usually used for DMC or God Hand, not even Bayonetta (or most Platinum games). You can indeed fight in KH in some different ways, but it's mostly the same thing, as it doesn't really change the way you approach an enemy, nor do enemies really try to approach you differently throughout the game. Again, I'm not saying it's bad or even serviceable, just that combat is not really the point of KH.
For the "KH has great combat" discussions: have you ever heard that in threads/videos not about the game? As in have you heard used as a point of comparison, rather than just someone saying "wow, combat in KH is really good" in a tweet/video about KH? I'm asking that seriously, not as a joke.

And no, FFXV isn't deep at all. Changing the direction of the stick and changing your weapon sometimes (or launching a grenade) doesn't make the game deep. It's just the same stuff with barely any variation, but doesn't really change the game or how to approach combat. It has no skill curve and potential, it's really basic. It works, but the arguments for FFXV's combat never hold up.

I'm not saying that FF7 should be some DMC game, or even something like the first God of War, they're making an ARPG, not a pure action game. I'm also not saying that FF7 was some super deep RPG with a fantastic combat system. I'm just saying that not only it's disappointing that they're making a pretty simplistic one (from what we're seeing over two trailers), but that the formula doesn't even seem to be changing from Nomura's previous works (someone above argued about some other possibilities, which are intriguing, but nothing is clear cut about that).

edit: oh boy, top of the page.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,143
Basically sounds like you don’t like it so it’s not viable. The argument you bring fourth about hearing it outside of threads for the game is some fluff tho anda bit comical considering it’s a high rated series and no matter where you look the ARPG combat is praised
 
The main ones. 1/2/3 (haven't played 2.8 or whatever the one with Aqua was named, and I don't think the other spinoffs matter).

But that's my point (see above): you get some new and/or different tools, but the combat doesn't become deeper or really more meaningful. I'm not sure what you mean by "self expression through combat", as this is a term usually used for DMC or God Hand, not even Bayonetta (or most Platinum games). You can indeed fight in KH in some different ways, but it's mostly the same thing, as it doesn't really change the way you approach an enemy, nor do enemies really try to approach you differently throughout the game. Again, I'm not saying it's bad or even serviceable, just that combat is not really the point of KH.
For the "KH has great combat" discussions: have you ever heard that in threads/videos not about the game? As in have you heard used as a point of comparison, rather than just someone saying "wow, combat in KH is really good" in a tweet/video about KH? I'm asking that seriously, not as a joke.

And no, FFXV isn't deep at all. Changing the direction of the stick and changing your weapon sometimes (or launching a grenade) doesn't make the game deep. It's just the same stuff with barely any variation, but doesn't really change the game or how to approach combat. It has no skill curve and potential, it's really basic. It works, but the arguments for FFXV's combat never hold up.

I'm not saying that FF7 should be some DMC game, or even something like the first God of War, they're making an ARPG, not a pure action game. I'm also not saying that FF7 was some super deep RPG with a fantastic combat system. I'm just saying that not only it's disappointing that they're making a pretty simplistic one (from what we're seeing over two trailers), but that the formula doesn't even seem to be changing from Nomura's previous works (someone above argued about some other possibilities, which are intriguing, but nothing is clear cut about that).

edit: oh boy, top of the page.
I would say self expression comes from however you choose to play a game. For KH you may choose to play largely aggressively, taking a dodge and attack approach or you might use summons and magic to control the flow of battle. I think the way magic works in KH is really interesting. They all have different ways in which they come out with different effects so knowing how to use them can lead to interesting situations. There are combo videos for both KH3 and FFXV (btw, I have a lot of problems with FFXV but I do think it has lots of options), there’s a lot of different ways you can play these games. You can finish a DMC game without buying new moves and play the game without any style and still finish it. There are a lot of different ways you can play a turn based game too. They way you use materia in FF7 says a lot about your play style.

I’m not sure I raelly understand your point about about things not nessisarly changing. In the original FF7, getting new skills, limit breaks, and magics doesn’t fundamentally change the ATB combat. Couldn’t you say the combat doesn’t become more meaningful as you get your new tools in FF7 too. You can also make every character play very similarly due to the materia system. For the record, I would have preferred if they had stayed true to the original and kept the ATB combat system.

As far as talking about KH outside of KH forums, I remember when they showed off new footage from YS9 at a game show a little while back people were talking about how the white haired character running up a building looked very similar to the same machanique in KH3. I used to talk to a friend of mine a lot about magic spells in ARPGs and I remember talking about magic in the KH series and the first Nier. I think you might be on to something though. Its hard for me to think about ARPGs without thinking of KH or YS (which are some of my favorites). Perhaps that influences how I see these conversations.

I think your points a valid though. The trailer doesn’t seem to portray the combat as super deep so you may be right. Sorry if I came off as aggressive in my last post.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Eolz

I don't think there's an issue with Kingdom Hearts or FFXV's combat, i think the issue is that you clearly prefer DMC style combat systems, and see them as the correct way to do it, and any type of deviation from that is a deviation in the wrong direction.

You even cite XV's simple control scheme as a negative, as if complex button inputs are a good thing, Noctis has a stinger style attack with his spear, all i have to do is pull the analog stick down and hold to get him to do it, would it make the game better if i had to do 2 fast quarter circles to initiate the attack?

And to answer your question, yes of course there are videos of skilled XV/KH players who make highlight videos showing off what they can do.


This is a player beating the hardest enemy in the game with the weakest weapon in the game without taking damage.


Here's what appears to be a DMC player having fun with the XV combat.

Obviously these games don't have the depth or complexity of a game like DMC5 but that's also not what they're trying to do.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,216
México
Eolz

I don't think there's an issue with Kingdom Hearts or FFXV's combat, i think the issue is that you clearly prefer DMC style combat systems, and see them as the correct way to do it, and any type of deviation from that is a deviation in the wrong direction.

You even cite XV's simple control scheme as a negative, as if complex button inputs are a good thing, Noctis has a stinger style attack with his spear, all i have to do is pull the analog stick down and hold to get him to do it, would it make the game better if i had to do 2 fast quarter circles to initiate the attack?

And to answer your question, yes of course there are videos of skilled XV/KH players who make highlight videos showing off what they can do.


This is a player beating the hardest enemy in the game with the weakest weapon in the game without taking damage.


Here's what appears to be a DMC player having fun with the XV combat.

Obviously these games don't have the depth or complexity of a game like DMC5 but that's also not what they're trying to do.
Exactly. Well said. Final Fantasy XV and Kingdom Hearts III may not be "hard" or games with "super deep combat full of hard-to-pull combos" and stuff. But that doesn´t mean they are shallow either.

On Final Fantasy XV I have the option of switching to a variety of weapons according to my enemies' weaknesses. I can cast magic that can freeze bodies of water like lakes and pools and have enemies stuck in there, ready for my assault. Or I can take advantage of the nerby vegetation to set it on fire and cause more expansive damage on hordes of enemies. Is it raining or are you standing near metallic surfaces? Cast Lighting Magic to increase its damage and reach. I can perform aerial attacks, switch weapons in mid-air, perform finishing moves, flank my enemies to blindside them, perform Link Strikes with my closest ally.

I can evade and counter attack, perform Cross Chains with my allies on fallen, vulnerable enemies for more damage. I can Warp Strike around the battlefield to more easily attack my enemies and/or get out of a pinch and recover some life.

I can evade attacks during aerial dancing, recover instantly and continue attacking without ever touching the ground.

I can issue commands to my friends, I can regroup them to my position in case I need to cast powerful spells, without needing to have full control over them.

Link Strikes are affected by which one of my comrades is closest, and which weapon I have equipped, resulting in really magnificent double and triple attacks.

I can switch my playable character for completely different combat approaches. Long distance attacks with Prompto. Massive damage and horde devastation with Gladiolus. Lighting-fast single target combat with Ignis...


I've been replaying Final Fantasy VII lately in anticipation for the remake, and that game is still my favorite FF game of all time, but all people complaining that XV "lacks depth" while praising the old games have no idea of what they are talking about. Most of the battles in the game are fought the same way, spam attack and the occasional spell or summon (Which are nothing else that cinematic spells). I reached Costa del Sol yesterday, and honestly, all the "depth and strategy" that people like to claim on these games is pretty much nonexistent.

Final Fantasy games have always been pretty easy for the most part, with the exception of some tough bosses. But the "hold X button to attach/defend/win" that people like to pull is incredibly disingenuous. The combat options ARE there. You don't want to use them? Fine. But they are there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,124
FR
Basically sounds like you don’t like it so it’s not viable. The argument you bring fourth about hearing it outside of threads for the game is some fluff tho anda bit comical considering it’s a high rated series and no matter where you look the ARPG combat is praised
Well, it's the case for everyone here isn't it? There's always some bias. I guess we're just not looking at the same places.
I would say self expression comes from however you choose to play a game. For KH you may choose to play largely aggressively, taking a dodge and attack approach or you might use summons and magic to control the flow of battle. I think the way magic works in KH is really interesting. They all have different ways in which they come out with different effects so knowing how to use them can lead to interesting situations. There are combo videos for both KH3 and FFXV (btw, I have a lot of problems with FFXV but I do think it has lots of options), there’s a lot of different ways you can play these games. You can finish a DMC game without buying new moves and play the game without any style and still finish it. There are a lot of different ways you can play a turn based game too. They way you use materia in FF7 says a lot about your play style.

I’m not sure I raelly understand your point about about things not nessisarly changing. In the original FF7, getting new skills, limit breaks, and magics doesn’t fundamentally change the ATB combat. Couldn’t you say the combat doesn’t become more meaningful as you get your new tools in FF7 too. You can also make every character play very similarly due to the materia system. For the record, I would have preferred if they had stayed true to the original and kept the ATB combat system.

As far as talking about KH outside of KH forums, I remember when they showed off new footage from YS9 at a game show a little while back people were talking about how the white haired character running up a building looked very similar to the same machanique in KH3. I used to talk to a friend of mine a lot about magic spells in ARPGs and I remember talking about magic in the KH series and the first Nier. I think you might be on to something though. Its hard for me to think about ARPGs without thinking of KH or YS (which are some of my favorites). Perhaps that influences how I see these conversations.

I think your points a valid though. The trailer doesn’t seem to portray the combat as super deep so you may be right. Sorry if I came off as aggressive in my last post.
Yeah no, you're right. ARPG is a pretty hard genre to define and to compare anyway.
And I'm definitely the one sounding aggressive there, so no worries lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,718
Hmm. I suppose the big question is, will we have a jump or not. I would think there is, but if there's not, what exactly does that do to the combat? And remind me, did the Tales games have a jump?
The ones where attacking happens more from a side view allow you to jump other ones Graces, Zesteria, Berseria don't have a jump

Really hope FF7 has a jump. Let me launch someone with Cloud, air combo them with Tifa then finish them with Barret who charged a big shot or something
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,466
I don't really get what you mean. Are you saying that Aerith built the house?
talking about the flowers, clean water, sunlight, etc. That beauty can't exist in Midgar. Only she was able to accomplish such things down there. The land Midgar sits on is pretty much dead

the house itself was already inhabited by her adoptive mother before Aerith showed up. But the outside was garbage like the rest of the slums before

While the house itself may be nice, it wouldn't be nearly as good looking without the outside that Aerith raised
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,318
talking about the flowers, clean water, sunlight, etc. That beauty can't exist in Midgar. Only she was able to accomplish such things down there. The land Midgar sits on is pretty much dead

the house itself was already inhabited by her adoptive mother before Aerith showed up. But the outside was garbage like the rest of the slums before

While the house itself may be nice, it wouldn't be nearly as good looking without the outside that Aerith raised
I see. Though, the biggest point of contention is the house. Large, has solid roof, sturdy stone walls and floors, nice furniture. While everyone just outside lives in cans.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,466
Her husband joined the shinra army, probably low rank to live in the slums but better than people there, i believe.
also keep in mind her husband had that house long before the Wutai war. We don't know how bad the slums even were then. Also possible she just took really good care of the house. Especially after Aerith came into the picture.
 
I'd love a more grounded take on combat...where you move around the map and have to really plan your strategy! Let's see the monsters actually hit hard and push the characters back when you have to block. stuff like that is so good to me
This is what I want too! Considering the more grounded visual style they’ve been going for I would expect the combat to be more grounded too. It would also be nice because we would have a little variety between our SE ARPGs. KH is over the top, where your characters can do seemingly anything while FF7R can have more weight. If there is a jump button I want the air attacks to feel really heavy.

Really hope FF7 has a jump. Let me launch someone with Cloud, air combo them with Tifa then finish them with Barret who charged a big shot or something
That sounds cool too. Hopefully they can make each character feel really distinct.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,562
I could see the X button being defensive capabilities for each character.

Cloud- Block (like in the trailer)
Tifa- Ability to jump (pressing attack in midair could do a downward attack)
Red xiii- A quick dash
Barret- Block or a roll
Aeris- ???
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
The ones where attacking happens more from a side view allow you to jump other ones Graces, Zesteria, Berseria don't have a jump

Really hope FF7 has a jump. Let me launch someone with Cloud, air combo them with Tifa then finish them with Barret who charged a big shot or something
They could technically do an automated jump combo like they did with FFXIII.

Nomura did want to do party switching combo for Versus so maybe he might revive the concept here.
 
Games like FF7 and FF8 - have a lot of set pieces and highly cinematic action moments.

And how the original games implement those in the past - was add gimmicks to the battle to make it feel like you were actively participating in a battle that's more than just a regular battle condition. Like a countdown timer that plays while bomb was happening - or in FF8 where you have to 'run away' from a boss as part of a mission where you have to race back to your ship.

There were many moments in the game where you're actively partaking in an elaborate set-pieces that blends cutscene and gameplay.

In other words - a lot of Final Fantasy moments like these are like Uncharted games.

For me - the natural reimagination or evolution of adapting those set-pieces today - would be to "keep-them-on-the-stick" and make them playable. Just like Uncharted games. Instead of cool moments that aren't part of the ATB-system being relegated to QTEs or long-cutscenes, make them instead playable set-pieces.

In that sense, an action approach works well towards the ideal of actualising core gameplay and movement into a set-piece driven game. Otherwise, a lot of times - what we see is that cool sequences that are not suitable for turn-based are relegated to cutscenes instead.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
I am curious if they will show whatever they show at the concert right away. They did show the orchestra trailer in 2017 right away when the concert finished, but it also ended up being the E3 trailer. For 2018, it stayed exclusive and we never got to see it public, and E3 few days later showed different trailer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
They really need at E3 to:

-announce release date (or at least window)
-detail on how the game will be structured. How many games it will end up being, timeframe between each release
-go indepth on the combat and general gameplay
-some exploration of Midgar
-show Tifa
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
I think we're going to get this and the rest at Gamescom and TGS.
Well yeah I guess they would have to save some for the other gameshows...
If they are only going to give window, I hope it's a bit clear. Something like "Spring 2020" at minimum, giving month would be better.

If they are intending on releasing the game by Q1 2020, I do feel there will be playable demo at E3 and if it does, we will probably get much more info on the combat.
 
Oct 27, 2017
415
Oregon
They really need at E3 to:

-announce release date (or at least window)
-detail on how the game will be structured. How many games it will end up being, timeframe between each release
-go indepth on the combat and general gameplay
-some exploration of Midgar
-show Tifa
I think you’re going to get what you want for the most part. I for one am really looking forward to what they’ve got to show.
 
Oct 28, 2017
890
Well yeah I guess they would have to save some for the other gameshows...
If they are only going to give window, I hope it's a bit clear. Something like "Spring 2020" at minimum, giving month would be better.

If they are intending on releasing the game by Q1 2020, I do feel there will be playable demo at E3 and if it does, we will probably get much more info on the combat.
Yeah, I agree. I think we'll get a closed doors demo actually. But Kitase did say, the next time they show FF7R, they want to show it with a playable demo so who knows.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,828
I am curious if they will show whatever they show at the concert right away. They did show the orchestra trailer in 2017 right away when the concert finished, but it also ended up being the E3 trailer. For 2018, it stayed exclusive and we never got to see it public, and E3 few days later showed different trailer.
My bet is either a cutscene or a sneak peek at the extended E3 trailer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
Yeah, I agree. I think we'll get a closed doors demo actually. But Kitase did say, the next time they show FF7R, they want to show it with a playable demo so who knows.
Looking at KH3 as a example, the game had January 2019 release date. They announced the release date at the concert right before E3, and they had public playable demo starting E3. Square does like to promote the game with playable demo so I do think this is a great time for it. Also SE's E3 booth size seems similar to last year, and last year they had huge KH3 demos but this time we don't really know what game that would warrant huge booth other than FF7R demo being there.. (unless they do surprise Avengers announcement but I doubt it.)
 
Oct 28, 2017
890
Looking at KH3 as a example, the game had January 2019 release date. They announced the release date at the concert right before E3, and they had public playable demo starting E3. Square does like to promote the game with playable demo so I do think this is a great time for it. Also SE's E3 booth size seems similar to last year, and last year they had huge KH3 demos but this time we don't really know what game that would warrant huge booth other than FF7R demo being there.. (unless they do surprise Avengers announcement but I doubt it.)
Ah right. I forgot the concert had a new short ver. trailer and a release date and then they had an info and public blowout at E3. It should follow a similar pattern. And yeah definitely not happening, I think it's still ridiculous people thought Avengers had a chance of coming first, lol.
 
Everyone wants to see Tifa I'm over here worried about my boy Red XIII. Going to be interesting to see how they handle his fur style.
Word, he was always one of my favorites, but has not meaningfully featured in compilation (and looked horrible in AC).

Modern SE seems to have cooled on.non-human party members, so I wonder if they’ll remove him as a playable party member....
 
They will not do that kind of a massive no sense pissing off the fans change.

Be reasonable.
I sure hope not, but I could see him being turned into an A.I character, periodically rolling through with an Interceptor takedown.

Large varied parties were something I enjoyed in IV, VI, VII, and IX, but modern SE has shrunk party size and diversity, and characters like Red and Cait are easy places to imagine a cut for Remake. How many ARPGs have 9 switchable party members in team based combat? I’m not betting it will happen, but nor would I be that surprised....
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
I sure hope not, but I could see him being turned into an A.I character, periodically rolling through with an Interceptor takedown.

Large varied parties were something I enjoyed in IV, VI, VII, and IX, but modern SE has shrunk party size and diversity, and characters like Red and Cait are easy places to imagine a cut for Remake. How many ARPGs have 9 switchable party members in team based combat? I’m not betting it will happen, but nor would I be that surprised....
I mean.. the whole reason why they are spliting this game into multipe parts is so that they make less compromise as possible..
Also I feel this game's combat won't be full-on action game style so I think they will fit all the characters.
 
I mean.. the whole reason why they are spliting this game into multipe parts is so that they make less compromise as possible..
Also I feel this game's combat won't be full-on action game style so I think they will fit all the characters.
Sure sure, but something is going to get compromised on - number of summons, visual oomph of higher level spells, implementation of higher level materia, whatever. I’d just find a compromise on playable characters to be the most disappointing, and Nanaki is one of my all time favorite FF characters, so I’m mentally girding myself, just in case. Expect the worst, etc. etc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,524
Sure sure, but something is going to get compromised on - number of summons, visual oomph of higher level spells, implementation of higher level materia, whatever. I’d just find a compromise on playable characters to be the most disappointing, and Nanaki is one of my all time favorite FF characters, so I’m mentally girding myself, just in case. Expect the worst, etc. etc.
I mean I do agree with there being some sort of compromises regarding stuff like weapon, materia, summons, magic.... but I don't see them not having one of the main party members not being playable...