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SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
Like, ultimately, I don't think it's a coincidence that the healer most people generally agree got out of the expansion the best is White Mage - which also has at times higher-than-tank DPS and damage abilities literally built into its gauge now. The way the game is designed best rewards that playstyle more than any other.
I wouldn't agree that the main reason WHM is top healer has to do with dps. They got great actual healing abilities whereas AST fell off a fucking cliff because the new card system doesn't feel nearly as good as the old system and your healing ability is significantly worse off. Scholar is just fine though using your pet isn't a great as it used to be because of the overall pet changes.
 

Luigi87

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,105
I wouldn't agree that the main reason WHM is top healer has to do with dps. They got great actual healing abilities whereas AST fell off a fucking cliff because the new card system doesn't feel nearly as good as the old system and your healing ability is significantly worse off. Scholar is just fine though using your pet isn't a great as it used to be because of the overall pet changes.
Agreed with this.
Honestly as a SCH main, if they just smoothed out the pet ability usage like it used to be (which I dunno if they even can with the pet changes), SCH would feel perfect to me at 80.

SCH healing toolkit is imo carried almost entirely by how good Sacred Soil is now. It's easily one of the strongest healing abilities currently. It's pretty low cooldown(30s, with 10s duration), is an oGCD so no mp cost and the aetherflow cost is mostly irrelevant with the SCH rework, it's a HUGE aoe so that you can often cover both tanks and DPS(other than the idiotic MCH who's standing in a corner) and it does both damage prevention and damage recovery so you can use in pretty much any healing situation. I barely used Soil before because I didn't do ultimates and even in savage it was often unnecessary but now I almost use it on cd(obviously depends on incoming mechanics), hell I use it on the tank alone for tank busters and shit, because why not, it's just that strong.

As a result however I'm never taking SCH into synced content ever again. Fuck playing with the nerfed fairy and without OP soil. Well I mean next expansion I guess I'll have to but hope they'll make sacred soil trait baseline then.

Yeah that's my other issue with SCH, lol
At 80 it feels great, but lower content (pretty much anything lower than 78) less so. Sure Recitation at 74, but Sacred Soil trait and Seraph really complete the job.
 

Pyros Eien

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,974
SCH healing toolkit is imo carried almost entirely by how good Sacred Soil is now. It's easily one of the strongest healing abilities currently. It's pretty low cooldown(30s, with 10s duration), is an oGCD so no mp cost and the aetherflow cost is mostly irrelevant with the SCH rework, it's a HUGE aoe so that you can often cover both tanks and DPS(other than the idiotic MCH who's standing in a corner) and it does both damage prevention and damage recovery so you can use in pretty much any healing situation. I barely used Soil before because I didn't do ultimates and even in savage it was often unnecessary but now I almost use it on cd(obviously depends on incoming mechanics), hell I use it on the tank alone for tank busters and shit, because why not, it's just that strong.

As a result however I'm never taking SCH into synced content ever again. Fuck playing with the nerfed fairy and without OP soil. Well I mean next expansion I guess I'll have to but hope they'll make sacred soil trait baseline then.

Edit: Checking some Eden normal parses, Soil is 30-40% of my total healing. Obviously just normal so healing requirements are low anyway but pretty funny to see it's more than Whispering Dawn/Embrace, which were generally the big overall heals on SCH before.
 
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Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
I'll be surprised if sacred soil doesn't get nerfed next week, it's way too strong considering how dogshit CU is now
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,944
Honestly for low-damage healers they're mostly going to get the side-eye because they're almost always low-CPM healers, too. Like, you pull up somebody who talks about needing to always be prepared for PUGs running in to danger, and there's a good chance they're hovering below 20 CPM. Which means they really are doing nothing most of the time--and them actually realizing how much time they spend not doing anything will be a huge part of them realizing there are DPS windows.

20 is a really, really low bar to cross. If you'r reliably under that, you're probably spending a lot more time doing nothing than you think. And at that point it's just a learning thing. Your damage output doesn't need to be amazing, but you also shouldn't be telling yourself you're doing the best you can be expected to do in content when you're spending half your time not doing anything.

I wouldn't agree that the main reason WHM is top healer has to do with dps. They got great actual healing abilities whereas AST fell off a fucking cliff because the new card system doesn't feel nearly as good as the old system and your healing ability is significantly worse off. Scholar is just fine though using your pet isn't a great as it used to be because of the overall pet changes.

But the damage component is why WHM is widely regarded to feel the best; the job has a loop that directly rewards GCD healing with free damage. Healing on WHM doesn't feel particularly like anything, because everything is OP and there's not a lot of strategy to getting people healed up. AST has the more involved healing system right now, but stacked up next to SCH and WHM it feels like ineffectual busy work there's no real reason to put up with. But where WHM excels is by having the Blood Lily as a sort of reward for healing. AST gets nada, and it sucks, but slapping a damage reward onto the busywork would go a long way towards making it feel worth. Buffing AST healing potency will make it more likely to be taken for prog, but is unlikely to make the job really feel better to play, because it's still a bunch of fiddly BS with minimal payoff.
 

skLaFarebear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
DPSing with WHM is so much more fun than it used to be so idk why people would rather not do it. If the DPS chew you out in pugs for EX/Savage as a healer because they fucked up mechanics and didn't get healed in time that's their own fault. And if people agree with them just leave. Good luck spending another 30 minutes finding another healer for them to still wipe to mechanics or fail DPS checks with.

But in general, healers have enough oGCD/instant GCD casts now though that they don't have to worry about the occasional DPS failing a mechanic. Emergency healing is a lot easier than it used to be.

if yoshi wants less dpsing and more healing he should start tuning their normal content properly for a start. Mobs still hit like wet noodles unless you pull half a dungeon to the next wall, you're not going to feel anything otherwise. And even that strength will dissappear before the bottle of milk you just bough goes bad. There is no excuse for this 70+ levels in. People should fear those hits. Until then it's dpsing before people fall asleep.

YoshiP: "We want healers to focus more on healing"
Also YoshiP: "Lets give WHM a 30 second DoT, Glare, reduce the CD on assize, make holy way cheaper to use and significantly better for bigger pulls, and a fat 900 potency aoe nuke tho"
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
DPSing with WHM is so much more fun than it used to be so idk why people would rather not do it. If the DPS chew you out in pugs for EX/Savage as a healer because they fucked up mechanics and didn't get healed in time that's their own fault. And if people agree with them just leave. Good luck spending another 30 minutes finding another healer for them to still wipe to mechanics or fail DPS checks with.

But in general, healers have enough oGCD/instant GCD casts now though that they don't have to worry about the occasional DPS failing a mechanic. Emergency healing is a lot easier than it used to be.



YoshiP: "We want healers to focus more on healing"
Also YoshiP: "Lets give WHM a 30 second DoT, Glare, reduce the CD on assize, make holy way cheaper to use and significantly better for bigger pulls, and a fat 900 potency aoe nuke tho"

I also think healers should be part of the DPS

No one wants to be party maintenance and its not a fun playstyle anyways

Let the entire team be badasses and have the main healers as insurance/life preserver for oh shit moments

The holy trinity is better when its being bent or broken and I always hated the shackles of "roles". Let the WHM have their cake
 

skLaFarebear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
I also think healers should be part of the DPS

No one wants to be party maintenance and its not a fun playstyle anyways

Let the entire team be badasses and have the main healers as insurance/life preserver for oh shit moments

The holy trinity is better when its being bent or broken and I always hated the shackles of "roles". Let the WHM have their cake

WHM has been stepped on ever since the days of The Dragonsong. But this day my friends, we're the ones doing the stepping!

Until our entire kit gets nerfed and we go back to being the bottoms of healing as usual.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I'm waiting to see how this next patch shakes out before dusting off my WHM. A class I've loved since XI.

Didn't WHM have mace and rod weapon skills and could dish out hurt on certain enemy types?

I mean it was still pretty hard locked to healing there. I suppose you could argue WHM has more combat potential in XIV but I cant remember
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
I've always found that healers who say "my role says healer, so I'm not gonna prioritize DPS" to be players that are making excuses for their bad play.

It was very telling when my very first endgame pull as WHM I hit mid 80's pct and I was very bad (like 22 cpm bad). I'm still not good and hit orange with only 25 cpm. Too many healers are just bad at this game.
 
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elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,556
Didn't WHM have mace and rod weapon skills and could dish out hurt on certain enemy types?

I mean it was still pretty hard locked to healing there. I suppose you could argue WHM has more combat potential in XIV but I cant remember
Except for a few debuff, Whm was like 99.99% about healing.
I don't think I've ever seen a whm really dps in ffxi, it might have been viable with say, a kraken club that 0.001% of whm could ever afford and you were fighting squeleton or something.

The fact you had to /rest to recover mp was making meleeing as a mage, even rdm, hardly ever worth it.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
Except for a few debuff, Whm was like 99.99% about healing.
I don't think I've ever seen a whm really dps in ffxi, it might have been viable with say, a kraken club that 0.001% of whm could ever afford and you were fighting squeleton or something.

The fact you had to /rest to recover mp was making meleeing as a mage, even rdm, hardly ever worth it.

Thats what I thought

Certainly healers are in a better spot in XIV as far as combat engagement though

They are such different beasts in this department.
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
I also think healers should be part of the DPS

No one wants to be party maintenance and its not a fun playstyle anyways

Let the entire team be badasses and have the main healers as insurance/life preserver for oh shit moments

The holy trinity is better when its being bent or broken and I always hated the shackles of "roles". Let the WHM have their cake
This sounds awful because I dislike dps in this game and love party maintenance playstyle. I maxed out all the healers because of that. Healers aren't healers because they love to dps, that's like a tank who doesn't like to be be the one in a group being hit the most.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
This sounds awful because I dislike dps in this game and love party maintenance playstyle. Healers aren't healers because they love to dps, that's like a tank who doesn't like to be be the one in a group being hit the most.
But party maintenance style simply doesn't exist in this game. You're either DPSing or just standing around and doing nothing and casting med 2 after every single raid wide and letting the regen ticks go to overheal. Which brings me to my biggest pet peeve of "pure healers"... they fucking cast med 2, then when that doesn't top everyone they add a plenary, or more commonly a medica. If you were going to do that then why the fuck did you cast a med2? Without the regen ticks it's just a worse medica 1.
 
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DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
This sounds awful because I dislike dps in this game and love party maintenance playstyle. I maxed out all the healers because of that. Healers aren't healers because they love to dps, that's like a tank who doesn't like to be be the one in a group being hit the most.

Sure and that would be the main charge but versatility doesnt hurt and pushing the party to adopt an al hands on deck approach could add to the fun as well

Maybe not even require it but allow classes to have more options available is always a good thing in my book and likely would open up to more enjoyable content with your main when soloing as well
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,948
Just got Tam Tara Hard in leveling roulette and then I remembered what a fucked up storyline that was apart of.
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
Sure and that would be the main charge but versatility doesnt hurt and pushing the party to adopt an al hands on deck approach could add to the fun as well

Maybe not even require it but allow classes to have more options available is always a good thing in my book and likely would open up to more enjoyable content with your main when soloing as well
I like this idea but it would have to apply to ALL party members, not just healers. Like the idea of a dps daring to do anything else but attack results in the community going "bUts ThAt's A dPs LoSs!!!!! I play PLD and had so many people have complained that I dared to use Clemency on myself or someone else as though I'm using that mana for anything else useful.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,494
I like this idea but it would have to apply to ALL party members, not just healers. Like the idea of a dps daring to do anything else but attack results in the community going "bUts ThAt's A dPs LoSs!!!!! I play PLD and had so many people have complained that I dared to use Clemency on myself or someone else as though I'm using that mana for anything else useful.

Lol weird!

You would think that any and all utility use would be welcome. This is part of the reason I will likely drop off FF14 once I complete most of the mainline content

If I ever did a high end trial where the DPS margins are so thin that I couldn't enjoy a play session... Fuck that
 

Marie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
650
In most pf setting, optimal play isn't expected.

Healers are expected to dps though. Or at least try. There's not enough outgoing dmg to sit around and heal.

The raiding meta in FF has always center around dps, but obviously its not like ppl are expecting anywhere near perfect play.

The main rule is, "don't be dead weight". If you can do that, you'll be fine
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
The whole combat system hangs on a few strings. It's in a weird position already with it's more actiony impulses. It represents the last relevant member of an already a dying system on MMO combat design approach.

They can't either make healers only heal or massively modify them into dps with some healing mechanics, without breaking the whole system and the thing collapsing a a jenga castle.

I feel they took the better approach: give some breath in dps check, so healer dps is not needed and people can focus on healing, while giving some leeway on healing needed, so skill ceiling is lower. Is the best choice for a role that is already unpopular enough. People who want to dps can do so and help a lot on hardcore content, healers that just want to play a healer can do so without being forced into dps.

I feel this is what it is, and is not going to change significantly.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
Am I wrong for loving scholar main despite being kind of boring to play? I'm only lv 40 and my combat spell usage is pretty limited but it's fun despite that.

I may switch to astrologen once I get to heavanward content though.
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,948
Yo for real. I'm still working through A Realm Reborn stuff for the first time and I hit that stuff last week. I was shocked at how disturbing some of it was, lol
Did you do Palace of the Dead yet? Cause that concludes the story but I don't know how that story works when you do it early levels as that's when it unlocks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,944
The problem with the approach this expansion is that they made DPS more boring for the bulk of healers that want to DPS, but didn't give them anything engaging in exchange to do. They didn't make pure healing any more or less viable than it was before, they just made non-pure-healing less appealing For Reasons. The role-wide changes in Shadowbringers manage to weave this very narrow path of not really doing what anyone wanted, which I guess is kind of impressive. It's telling that WHM came out the best, and also feels the most like a Stormblood healer.
 

Fizzgig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,767
How beginner friendly is this game from starting fresh? Been looking at the Bard class, but it looks a bit confusing.
 

DarkChronic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,037
Oh you didn't do Tam Tara hard yet. Well I'll say this unless you're really hurting on leveling hold off on PoTD(it actually should be unlocked by now) until you do Tam Tara hard. That's all I'll say for now.

Haha okay cool. Didn't realize there were story differences. I assumed you were talking about that white mage and her husband I think it was.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,223
Am I wrong for loving scholar main despite being kind of boring to play? I'm only lv 40 and my combat spell usage is pretty limited but it's fun despite that.

I may switch to astrologen once I get to heavanward content though.

I mean, the point of any game is to have fun, so play what you enjoy so long as you're not actively sabotaging parties obviously, lol.

On my original character back at 2.0 launch I played Maurauder and enjoyed tanking, and then I leveled an archer for fun for a while and then quit.

When I rolled my new character last week I started out as an Arcanist but wasn't really having fun with it (and I'm sure I'd drive myself crazy with summon management as a mandatory part of a class). So I switched over to Rogue when I could since I didn't really want to Tank anymore and have to "be in charge" in dungeons.

I just enjoy up close and personal physical classes more than ranged and magic classes since I like being in the thick of the fight and having to manage positioning. Not sure what I'll move on to from Rogue at this point.

Now I just have to finish Sastasha but my social anxiety took over last night and I didn't feel like jumping in via the Duty Finder, lol.
 

Luigi87

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,105
Am I wrong for loving scholar main despite being kind of boring to play? I'm only lv 40 and my combat spell usage is pretty limited but it's fun despite that.

I may switch to astrologen once I get to heavanward content though.
As others have said play what you have the most fun with!
I'm a SCH main, and it's a blast to play at max level.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,153
TheYanger Hey just wanted to let you know that I made some changes to my WAR hotkeys based on your interface and it has helped tremendously! I don't look at the hotbars half as much anymore and I don't fuck up my cooldowns. Will do something similar with GNB too, see how it adapts. My screen looks overall cleaner as well.

So thank you so much!

About the healer discussion... I've left my AST for a while until the next patch to see if the potencies get better, but I'm leveling up my WHM and will read everything you guys say since I really wanna have 1 class of each type ingrained in my mind. I still don't know how WHM works completely, but we'll see.
Glad it helped. I actually just added a fifth row of hotkeys because of gnb and how many stupid fucking buttons it has, 15 years of the same setup and I finally was broken by this game lol
 

Firebrand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
Been looking at the Bard class, but it looks a bit confusing.
I haven't been following the Shadowbringers changes too closely other than rioting over what they took out, but basically you keep one song up at all times, rotate between them in order as they go on cooldown (possibly cutting the least effective one short). Each time your DoTs tick they have a chance to "proc" (used to be based on crit but now I think it's a fixed %), the effect differing depending on the current song. Procs during Mage's Ballad resets the Bloodletter / Rain of Arrow abilities (mash that key), Army's Paeon gives you increasing haste (for you only), and Wanderer's Minuet builds a stack which can then be consumed via Pitch Perfect for damage. Song strength for single target used to be WM > MB > AP, only keeping AP going until WM is available again. This might be outdated information now, idk.

I've enjoyed it in the past but it does rely on having a good HUD setup as you'll need to be watching the DoTs, your song timers, and all the procs lighting up. Letting your DoTs fall off is a huge DPS loss.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,918
How beginner friendly is this game from starting fresh? Been looking at the Bard class, but it looks a bit confusing.

Been playing Bard since I started like a month ago and I've been loving it. It's a fun and reactive class and since it's a ranged DPS with no magic casting you can handle positionals while keeping up damage.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
HszWYmd.png


I am complete. Got the special FATES done so much quicker this xpac than Ixion, actually only completed that about a month ago.

The Archaeotania FATE is actually a super fun fight. Whereas the Formidable one, I just seemed to get sucked in regardless of what I did.
 

jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
Been playing Bard since I started like a month ago and I've been loving it. It's a fun and reactive class and since it's a ranged DPS with no magic casting you can handle positionals while keeping up damage.
Positionals in this game refers to melee DPS rear/flank requirements. Bards don't have positionals
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Finding out NIN is the worst DPS now is a bummer.

And I'm starting to agree.

Not sure if I should try a new class now or what.
 
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