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Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers |OT| First World Problems
- Thread starter Dark Knight
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Maybe just my opinion but kinda shitty to hear triggers going off in a world first clear. Doesn't that just remove all the surprises of the mechanics? I couldn't even understand what was going on in last phase but they all seemed to have it easily down. I expected more deaths but I don't know how long they progged that phase I guess.
So why does savage require a static or pug, and why do the mechanics take so much time and effort to learn while normal does not required these things? It's because those fights are difficult, right?
What I'm getting at here is that one definition of something being difficult is the practice and time investment involved in being able to accomplish that thing. No one would call Normal raids difficult because you can jump right in with no practice or preparation and succeed in 30 minutes. Whereas Savage can take dozens (or Ultimate hundreds) of hours to achieve a successful clear. I think any reasonable person would say that would make those things difficult to do. Just saying "all it takes is learning patterns and memorization" is reductive.
Typically this kind of prog, the triggers are being made by the people actually raiding (and/or their team watching their prog). e.g., Aya Liz made all the Ultima triggers back in the day while they were progging. Back when UCoB was brand new, we just did our own Nael RP triggers and created our own fight timelines to run.
Coordination and communication aren't 100% transferable though, being really good at coordination and communication in general will give you a leg up, but you still need to learn how to use that in the context of the game. It's alot easier said than done.
If you only had to do your set of mechanics while the rest were AI on a script it would be easy, the difficulty comes from getting 8 people all on the same page and making sure all communication is clear and concise, can be understood by everyone instantly, being able to adapt and recognize any differences on the fly without skipping a beat, all while each person has to stay consistent throughout the entire fight to not throw any other members off. The world first team (Thoughts Per Second) talked to length on MogTalk about how a bad mindspace can completely ruin a raid night and how they've adopted many strategies to avoid the downward spiral that has ruined their runs before. You're essentially getting everyone to think on the same wavelength for hours upon hours on end, and one person off will potentially wipe a run. This is where alot of the difficulty comes from.
Triggers are manually input, you would know and have reached the mechanic already.
The thing with the world prog groups is that they were surprised by the mechanics. Then they died to them, wrote triggers, and were better prepared the next time. The clear video you see is the culmination of a lot of time and effort; it looks clean because they'd gotten there and failed in prior runs.
I haven't read this because I'm trying to preserve some surprises for myself, but you can actually read a really big long thing about their thought process around the big gimmick mechanic that was walling everyone.
In addition to being really good at their jobs, these people invested a ton of time+thought into this stuff. They just make it look easy when it all finally works out.
No, it's because the mechanics are designed to wipe you if you don't meet a baseline level of coordination. This can be circumvented if there's already a pre-agreed-upon strat (i.e. public strats that are the de facto standard in PUGs), of course.
You can define difficulty however you'd like. I'd argue that the time and effort investment does not comprise difficulty within the game systems. I don't think there's any "merit" (i.e. bragging rights) in doing something that is only "difficult" because it requires a lot of time and effort.
Also, FFXIV (and MMOs in general) lean heavily on scripting for their encounter design, and anything that is scripted is not difficult in my book, because all you have to do is learn it once. There's very little (or no) randomization to force people to react on the fly.
Again, this is just my opinion.
lol
literally any sort of "difficulty" is overcome with "time and effort". coordinating 8 people to correctly perform a complicated mechanics dance for 15 minutes or so is no less valid of a form of "difficulty" than, idk, having to precisely time a block or dodge and input an appropriate button combo in a fighting game or something, or pretty much any other example of "difficulty" in games you could bring up
My take: It takes a really big amount of time, effort and dedication of 8 people that can play for hours straight and have similar schedules they can arrange. Not many people have the time or will to dedicate so many hours to beat a single "boss".
Of course more skilled players will need less hours.
Just saying how this all comes across as...
Ultimately, this sounds like "Anything that takes time is easy" which is a bit reductive and dismisses a lot of the actual accomplishments involved in general. Execution isn't entirely hard in XIV / any MMO but that doesn't somehow mean there's no difficulty in the solving, planning, and executing steps. I do agree that coming in with pre-planned everything does remove a lot of the difficult parts but that doesn't still leave executing it. People are still grey-green-etc. levels of performance based largely off their ability to actually pull off said execution; the act of improvement is where we start getting into the difficulty curve as you get better and better and each step takes more and more effort to get there. Also, as far as injecting randomness into things goes, this tends to make things harder to react to but that's not the only form of difficulty (and, let's be honest, typically when we start throwing in randomness, the execution requirement usually falls off to compensate for it) in games; not having randomness tends to allow for putting more into the how-to since you no longer have the "excuse" of having things to adjust to.
Personally, my take on matters is that "Anyone can do it as long as you're putting in the effort to get it done." Which isn't that things are easy or hard themselves but that you need to actually just do it. This being an MMO and how our inputs work and how fight designs are and so-on means that not a lot of your performance is locked behind anything besides your own level of polish.
Ultimately, this sounds like "Anything that takes time is easy" which is a bit reductive and dismisses a lot of the actual accomplishments involved in general. Execution isn't entirely hard in XIV / any MMO but that doesn't somehow mean there's no difficulty in the solving, planning, and executing steps. I do agree that coming in with pre-planned everything does remove a lot of the difficult parts but that doesn't still leave executing it. People are still grey-green-etc. levels of performance based largely off their ability to actually pull off said execution; the act of improvement is where we start getting into the difficulty curve as you get better and better and each step takes more and more effort to get there. Also, as far as injecting randomness into things goes, this tends to make things harder to react to but that's not the only form of difficulty (and, let's be honest, typically when we start throwing in randomness, the execution requirement usually falls off to compensate for it) in games; not having randomness tends to allow for putting more into the how-to since you no longer have the "excuse" of having things to adjust to.
Personally, my take on matters is that "Anyone can do it as long as you're putting in the effort to get it done." Which isn't that things are easy or hard themselves but that you need to actually just do it. This being an MMO and how our inputs work and how fight designs are and so-on means that not a lot of your performance is locked behind anything besides your own level of polish.
Not to give much away, but I think this Ultimate was unique in that it has random elements which do require precise execution, which made it especially hard. I mean, I guess you can argue it's still scripted, but when mechanics have 8 different random possibilities for each player, that's a really long script.
Not true. I can spend a million hours in the gym and I'll never make the NBA. I'll agree with the overall sentiment though - there's a lot of stuff that people hold up as something to brag about that I don't think is worthy of it 👀
I'm not arguing this to diminish their accomplishments, I'm arguing this because I truly believe that a lot of people could do this if they really wanted to. I think that's a good thing!
I generally agree with your take, MMOs are inherently limited in their acceptable difficulty thresholds due to the nature of the internet and latency and stuff. I'm just saying I don't see why anyone would ever brag about beating such things. You can be proud of the accomplishment and happy that you overcame it, but to hold it up in front of people and expect them to be impressed? Nah. And that's all the "these items should be exclusive" argument comes across to me as. It's coming solely from a place of wanting elevated social status. If you put in the time and effort to beat Ultimate legit you should absolutely get some cool-looking shit as a reward. But if someone wants to spend their hard-earned money to buy a carry it doesn't diminish my reward, I still have that cool-looking item.
See this is the type of difficulty I like! I want fights to have completely random combinations of mechanics at completely random times. Like, you know going in that there are X amount of mechanics and what they do, but you never know which ones will show up when, and in what combinations. So you're forced to consider how the mechanics interact on the fly and craft the solution in real time.
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Personally, anything that requires a considerable amount of time and effort... Is difficulty. Because the will to dedicate that amount of time and dedication to a single task... Is not something everyone everyone can do without a certain amount of will or a lot of will. Constantly smashing your head to a situation or a problem, is difficult to dealt with even if you consider that, yeah after enough time hitting that wall it will come down.
Mental strength is important as physical abilities as reflexes, eye coordination and other skills you might consider important in gaming. I don't think I have the physical skill to do those crazy mad DMC combo videos, but people that does they might not have the will to put 400hours I to getting there.
Or you can see how sport players have the physical skill to be on top but lack the mental and will capacity to stay on edge during key moments or lacks dedication.
So yeah, in terms of 'physical' skill most of the userbase can do ultimates, but in terms of 'mental' strength? Maybe not.
(another question is how knowing the mechanics reduces the difficulty by a lot, if people had to do it blind... Yeah, that's another story)
Mental strength is important as physical abilities as reflexes, eye coordination and other skills you might consider important in gaming. I don't think I have the physical skill to do those crazy mad DMC combo videos, but people that does they might not have the will to put 400hours I to getting there.
Or you can see how sport players have the physical skill to be on top but lack the mental and will capacity to stay on edge during key moments or lacks dedication.
So yeah, in terms of 'physical' skill most of the userbase can do ultimates, but in terms of 'mental' strength? Maybe not.
(another question is how knowing the mechanics reduces the difficulty by a lot, if people had to do it blind... Yeah, that's another story)
1) You will have to group up for dungeons and trials but you can use Duty Finder for that and have the game find teammates for you. You can do the story content solo outside of that.
2) Not really, although it may become harder to find people to do certain things with once it isn't current content.
1) You'll have to do dungeons and raids with others, but the game will matchmake those for you, most of the story is solo though
2) The biggest timed content is holiday stuff or crossover events, but you can usually get those items within an hour or so (they're cosmetic stuff anyways). It's fairly easy to catch up on gear if you take a break
A majority of the game is designed to be played solo. There will be times in the story where you will have to do dungeons (4 players) and trials (8 players) but the game will match you up with other players and the content is designed to be completed with minimal or no communication.
This would be my first MMO, are these real difficult? I've beaten every FF.
I was thinking about getting this tomorrow. I'd be starting fresh at level 1. Would I be starting at a bad time /could I still catch up to everyone?
no the dungeons are not hard, they are designed to be completed with minimal cordonation until you get much further in the game.
there really isn't any catching up to do. Think of the game as a single player game where every few levels you will team up with a few other players to do a dungeon.
Nothing you are required to do is particularly difficult. There's optional, harder content available if you want to engage with it
Yes, you can catch up. The game basically gives you all the XP needed for one job to reach max level by playing through the main story of all content (the base game/A Realm Reborn plus the Heavensward, Stormblood, and Shadowbringers expansions). There's going to be a trimming down of some of the fluff in the base game next summer, but I wouldn't wait for that if you want to jump in now.
Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's a free trial up until level 35 (half way to 2/3rds through the base game). The free trial isn't time limited in any way. Don't buy anything until you hit level 35. You should know by that point if XIV is something you want to continue playing, although the story and quest design isn't really great at that point, you should at least know if playing an MMO is for you
I played back during Heavensward for the free month and then stopped playing. I only really got into the game back this September for Shadowbringers and now have 5 level 80 combat jobs and 1 of each of crafter/gatherer jobs at 80. I've done most of the old content as well. Doing Roulettes helps a lot for seeing some (but not all) of the old content. All of that playing sort of casually for only 3 like months. I'd say you should be fine.
A lot of folks are pretty helpful in the community too. I think I've only ran into like 3 or 4 rotten people in my time playing so far.
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The game was designed with the idea that a lot of players won't have a mmo background. You can do a vast majority of the story content alone, and the dungeons are really simple for the first 40 levels or so
DPS classes generally the best pic for people uncomfortable with group play since screwing up generally doesn't result in a team wipe, and it's pretty hard to tell when a DPS isn't playing well anyway. However, DPS does suffer from long que times for dungeons.
If you think you can handle it, playing as a healer, specifically Conjurer/White Mage might be a good choice. Healers have really fast que times and healing is really simple in the early game. Even later on, when healing is more complex, White Mage is the healer that is the least demanding and most forgiving of sub-optimal play
Sitting around with a little over 4 million gil and getting the itch to buy a house. Just want to make a little more though before I decide to get a small house though.
That was a pretty cool read. I've never really so much as glanced at the end game hard content, but I watched the clear video and was blown away at how complicated it is.
Really, the only experience I've had with raiding in an MMO at all would be in World Of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich King stuff, and this seems far and away more involved than anything I experienced there. Not just the newest Alexander stuff, but I've recently been doing uncapped Bahamut Coil stuff and ended up on Turn 9 and the meteor stuff is way harder and would require way more coordination than anything I'd ever seen in WoW.
Nothing like seeing the Facet Cross-Pen Hammer(BSM primary) go from like 400k to like 250k. Fuck that I'm not lowering my price to 250k I'll just wait for it to climb back up.
My Gaelikitten minion that I found is getting super undercut right now, went from 500k to 250k over the course of a week. To be fair though, I didn't make it and I don't actually know what it's worth, I just threw it up there for the price that others were listing it as when I found it. So I think I'll just leave it up there for now.
if you want to see another cool high level fight check out Thordin Extreme
then read this article from a WoW raid developer on why it is one of the best fights he's ever played
You two were probably at the top of the price slip 'n slide. It most likely won't get back to those prices (the Galicat might, but that'll be a long long while). Best not to worry about people undercutting you and undercut them and get what money you can. If you keep it at 500k you will most likely never sell it. Need to get what money you can now and not worry about it.
Nah I'll wait till after the weekend. It's not that serious and I've seen prices climb back up anyways
wow this is fascinating, is there any more fight breakdowns like this?
Well of the DPS jobs I've played (DNC, RDM, SMN), been playing DRG the last few days and it's by far the most fun I've had among them. I just love jumping in and out of things, using Elusive Jump to get into a spot quicker by turning myself. Just so much fun.
Sfia's streaming/going over their World First video and how they approached mechanics https://www.twitch.tv/sfia
it was genuinely more interesting in 1.x when gridania was basically a crazy tree cult but i think they wanted the city-state leadership to be more sympathetic
That sounds way more interesting and could have yeilded a more interesting plot
As it stands though if they were to revisit the first three areas Ul Dah is the most interesting to me because the ala mhigan refugee's migrating back and the governmental changes
And limsa is a port city so that's always going to be interesting, shit can just happen. People and things ported in and out , so much potential and there's still a bunch of folks we could get more info on
And gridiania is just a boring forest ( with great music ) and I kinda don't care to learn about anything there. I was kinda interested in the horned weirdo's but at this point i'm like eh. I would rather see how ishgard is doing, which we are doing right now so that's good
Both Limsa and Gridania storyline were pulled in the back burner and most of just comes now from job quests. Uldah is another matter since politically is the most interesting with it's social structure and it's political commentary than the weird cult thing or the pirate city that stole the land from beast tribes.
Finished leveling up all the Tanks to 80 (DPS has been done for awhile). Started on a Healer class for the first time yesterday (well I have Scholar at 80 but I never messed with that outside of job quests). I've just done a few dungeons with the Conjurer so far, but I'm enjoying it. Should be able to easily hit 30 with it today to get White Mage and I might try some Astrologian today too.
While Ul Dah is cool , the pirates stealing the land from beast tribes has political angles in it. And that cult shit kinda sounds great.
I would hope that maybe one day they just do an expansion that changes the core world, like pushes that narrative forward. But I get the idea that may never happen
Honestly all I really would like in that aspect is now that the PS3 is out for good revamp the world so the cities aren't split in two anymore and if they can achieve it curb loading-screens all together and make zone-transition seamless like in WoW.
Everyone teleports straight to the area they need anyway so I doubt they would see it as worthwhile
Good point, I understand why games are like this nowadays but I find it still sad and disheartening. I wish they would atleast consider unifying the city-halves, it's a weird feeling standing at the Upper Decks in Limsa and looking down to the main-square and see it empty even though you know a ton of players are actually there.
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