Finland's prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US

Acevil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
254
A lot of countries do a better job of the American dream compared to USA. If I recall USA was not the greatest on upward mobility of individuals, namely in the last decade.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,598
Gonna say this as a poc american since birth.

The american dream is dual edge sword and those wielding the power like it that way. It’s been that way before the declaration was signed and since it was signed.

It’s hype and it’s doing it job. Suckers keep lining up thinking they gonna be trump only to fall in to grandest and greatest capitalist trap mankind has ever made.

Most of us know this only outsiders, the burgeois,
corporate sychophants and delusional conservatives think otherwise at this point.

Probably true. If only nordic countries were more diverse.
Besides the immigration point isn’t the topic sort of over?
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,884
America is a country in collapse, so you can start saying most other first-world nations will outclass it in all of the important ways.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,046
The funny thing about the American Dream is that there's a number we can use to track it (the correlation between parent and child's income). The US does very poorly.

 

Dever

Banned
Dec 25, 2019
316
One thing to point out about the article is that taxes here aren't just high on the rich, they're high on everyone. And there's a value-added tax(VAT) on everything you buy too, so more is taken out of your paycheck and also everything is quite expensive. Also uses the term "Nordic socialism" or something, there's no such thing. Actual socialism is not popular here at all.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,598
One thing to point out about the article is that taxes here aren't just high on the rich, they're high on everyone. And there's a value-added tax(VAT) on everything you buy too, so more is taken out of your paycheck and also everything is quite expensive. Also uses the term "Nordic socialism" or something, there's no such thing. Actual socialism is not popular here at all.
Tax means shit in your country

Not only is every bit of currency more effectively used at any scale most do studies at, it actually goes to the people not corporate handouts or tax breaks for not paying your fair share.
 
Last edited:

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,475
One thing to point out about the article is that taxes here aren't just high on the rich, they're high on everyone. And there's a value-added tax(VAT) on everything you buy too, so more is taken out of your paycheck and also everything is quite expensive. Also uses the term "Nordic socialism" or something, there's no such thing. Actual socialism is not popular here at all.
and they are used to actually improve the quality of life for everyone providing education, healthcare, services and maintenance, instead of government bailouts and golf trips
so what is the problem
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,387
The American Dream is alive in Finland!*

*As long as you and your parents are from Finland.
Forgive me because I am not sure if it's a joke or is earnest, but are immigrants to Finland really at that much of a disadvantage to succeed?

I came to Canada as an immigrant and my family has been able to success quite well
 

dabig2

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,037
Will they accept a bunch of brown immigrants with open arms?
Will America? In fact, has this country actually ever done that?

Black people were hauled here in chains against their will and a century of Jim Crow followed slavery, Native Americans wiped out after constant oppression and lies and then shoved into pockets where they waste away, Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and of course our policies and actions towards those south of us going back to forever.

The system set up in America since the start has done everything to oppose this "American Dream" ideal.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,693
Forgive me because I am not sure if it's a joke or is earnest, but are immigrants to Finland really at that much of a disadvantage to succeed?

I came to Canada as an immigrant and my family has been able to success quite well
Immigrants to Europe, especially in Scandinavian countries, have been met with a lot of pushback. Like, there is a reason why far-right groups have been getting more political clout.

It's easy to form a utopia when 'everyone' is from a similar background, but it papers over some very real issues regarding discrimination and what are effectively second-class citizens.

edit: Even Canada has a lot of issues regarding immigration, which is why there's a lot of talk about 'old stock Canadians' even in 2020.
 

Prine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,457
I think the happiness index backs them up. High taxes and socialist policies seems to be implemented successfully there.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,448
New York
Will America? In fact, has this country actually ever done that?

Black people were hauled here in chains against their will and a century of Jim Crow followed slavery, Native Americans wiped out after constant oppression and lies and then shoved into pockets where they waste away, Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and of course our policies and actions towards those south of us going back to forever.

The system set up in America since the start has done everything to oppose this "American Dream" ideal.
The point is the moment they have a substantial black population Nordic countries will get just as stingy and hostile and uncaring as America. Period.

Easy for them to pat themselves on the back when everyone is white.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,117
I think the whole retort about “Buh-buh-buh how do they treat immigrants” is really fucking disingenuous while America is literally taking their kids and putting them in fucking cages.

YES they’re doing a LOT fucking better in other countries as long as Finland isn’t hanging them from walls or something.
 

dabig2

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,037
User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around racism
The point is the moment they have a substantial black population Nordic countries will get just as stingy and hostile and uncaring as America. Period.

Easy for them to pat themselves on the back when everyone is white.
Alright, let's compare just the white citizens then. I think Finland and almost every other white dominated country out there pulls ahead in making that American Dream" possible for as many white citizens as possible. The culture and philosophy is different, and not just because they lack color. American over-consumption but that's a different sidetrack.

There's always been something rotten in America, and a lot of it boils down to this nationalist imaginary dream that, if you can even assume is real, was done at the cost of a lot of bodies, past present and future, for as few people as possible.



The "American Dream" is a tainted imaginary delusion.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,448
New York
Alright, let's compare just the white citizens then. I think Finland and almost every other white dominated country out there pulls ahead in making that American Dream" possible for as many white citizens as possible. The culture and philosophy is different, and not just because they lack color. American over-consumption but that's a different sidetrack.

There's always been something rotten in America, and a lot of it boils down to this nationalist imaginary dream that, if you can even assume is real, was done at the cost of a lot of bodies, past present and future, for as few people as possible.



The "American Dream" is a tainted imaginary delusion.
No. That’s not how my statement works. At all. You can’t completely disregard my assertion about how all those Nordic nations would turn out if they had a large black population. Then compare the American white population with Europe while simultaneously ignoring the context that American racism is the cutting of the nose to spite its face that’s directly responsible for the poor conditions that many white folks in America find themselves today. Fact is the “other” will have folks willing to let their kids be sick rather than have “them” also have health insurance...

It’s literally the entire point of my original comment. And I’m astounded you’re completely ignoring it yet quoting it.
 

dabig2

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,037
No. That’s not how my statement works. At all. You can’t completely disregard my assertion about how all those Nordic nations would turn out if they had a large black population. Then compare the American white population with Europe while simultaneously ignoring the context that American racism is the cutting of the nose to spite its face that’s directly responsible for the poor conditions that many white folks in America find themselves today. Fact is the “other” will have folks willing to let their kids be sick rather than have “them” also have health insurance...

It’s literally the entire point of my original comment. And I’m astounded you’re completely ignoring it yet quoting it.
I'm well aware of the entanglements of race and wealth. But even more goes into the psychology of America and its wealth and its workers beyond simply those afraid of darkie. I don't know how the Nordic countries would have turned out with minority populations growing amid the more newly established Americas.
What I do know is that for the entirety of America's history, even during slavery times and minority citizens having barely a bigger population percentage than in Finland, that the American Dream was a figment.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,448
New York
I don't know how the Nordic countries would have turned out with minority populations growing amid the more newly established Americas.
Well, I do. They’d let their babies starve before seeing food in the bellies of non-Europeans. Black folk in particular. Sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but it’s the truth.

If you don’t intend to speak on my initial assertion then don’t bother quoting me.

I stand by my statement and I’ll flip it for you: If America had the ethnic makeup of Nordic nations taxes would be high and there’d be free healthcare, gun regulations, education, mass transit, pre-k and all that shit.

All them Nordic nations would lose their minds in record time if a Thanos-snap dropped off a bunch of minorities and they had citizenship.

What I do know is that for the entirety of America's history, even during slavery times and minority citizens having barely a bigger population percentage than in Finland, that the American Dream was a figment.
0.94% of Finland is African (51k). So I’m gonna need receipts on that statement.

Black people in the US were 12.7% in 1860

In the lower south we were nearly 50% of the population. Let minorities take over nearly half of a region in Norway or Finland and watch mofos souls melt.

I’m just saying that most of America’s problems are fundamentally rooted in race and racist views held by Europeans. So don’t be too quick to brag about how well your Nordic nations get along with life when any given slice of Nordic life looks like an episode of Friends....
 
Last edited:

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,886
How many of those countries have a larger number of immigrants than the US?
a quick google shows the fraction of immigrants in america as 13.6%(decreasing over the last 30 years) compared to swedens 14.3%(increasing). Another quick google shows that america admit the equivalent of about 0.3% of their population per year, while sweden admits roughly 1%. So seems to me america is well behind the curve comparatively. Denmark and Norway are probably in the ballpark. Finland is definitely the least diverse of the Nordic countries.
 
Last edited:

Midramble

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,820
San Francisco
They're right but their strong homogeny means their success isn't that simple.

The core of the argument being that strong social systems and a welfare state is more conducive to individual upward mobility is true though. They are objectively better at this than the US. More safety nets allows for more individual risk taking.
 

Apharmd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,008
It's true. Today's America has very little social mobility. It's ruled by generational wealth and an upper class which has socialized all the risks and privatized the rewards. There's no safety net, really, and if working- and middle-class Americans fail they will be allowed to starve.
 

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,186
Basque Country
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing and speaking over the concerns of minority members.
I find it interesting how Americans always bring up "but what about people of colour" on this threads, as if the US was so great with them.

They're just as likely to encounter racism in Europe, true. But what about their economic mobility? What about the statistical chances of being shot by police or being separated from your parents and thrown in a cage?