Finland's prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US

the_id

Member
Oct 25, 2017
556
America is slowly turning into a country run by corporations, but that's just capitalism. Its democracy is just a facade when in fact it is slowly turning into an oligarchy.

So many other countries in the west have been successful with their pluralistic societies such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada. They might not be perfect and probably not as rich as Americans, but they sure are embodying the original principles of the USA.

If Trump gets re-elected, then I think the country will have turned into the very thing they fought against during the second world war and the populace will go down through a very dark path.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,233
If you define the American dream as being a homogeneously white country with much less on their plate to worry about then yeah I guess
 

tsampikos

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,555
I think the whole retort about “Buh-buh-buh how do they treat immigrants” is really fucking disingenuous while America is literally taking their kids and putting them in fucking cages.

YES they’re doing a LOT fucking better in other countries as long as Finland isn’t hanging them from walls or something.
You don't understand our perspective. Those of us who take up this perspective aren't saying it defensively. We're saying it because we see them as full of shit too.
 

Tennis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
386
The Finnish dream is to win the national lottery jackpot and not having to go to work the next monday.
 

JDSN

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,578
Yeah, my brown as fuck family in örebro is dealing with the bit of the american dream where they tell to PoC "Ok, this is as far as you will be allowed to go in life, anything else will upset the real people".

I mean, they are having a great life, but there is a celling there.
 

Atlas_XIX

Member
Oct 29, 2017
47
I'm with a lot of people here the second some brown and black people enter the country those benefits would get slowly stripped away.
 
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Twinsun

Member
Nov 2, 2017
831
I fear the brainwashing of a large portion of americans is too severe for them to ever believe there could possibly be a better way out there.
 

Hodgy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,895
UK
whataboutism isn't a good look. Yes Europe has problems with racism that manifests themselves differently than they do in the US but I think its disingenuous to assume the only reason Finland is the way it is is because they are more homogeneous and that should some brown people move there they will tear it all up.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
Easy to say when you barely have any ethnic diversity in your country.

Same could be said for Canada for exemple where it's extremely hard to gain citizenship as an immigrant.
 

ISOM

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,575
whataboutism isn't a good look. Yes Europe has problems with racism that manifests themselves differently than they do in the US but I think its disingenuous to assume the only reason Finland is the way it is is because they are more homogeneous and that should some brown people move there they will tear it all up.
And I think it's ignorant to ignore how much racism has impacted America's social policies. Something that is most likely not the same in your country. If you're gonna ignore that while pointing out how much better your country is then you might as well not say anything.
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
931
Belgium
Belgium has 25% "new belgians" (of which half are non EU - mostly Morrocan, Turkish and Congolese). About 25% of our capital Brussels is Muslim. We also have free healthcare, free education, unemployment benefits, minimumwages etc comparable to the nordic countries. It's far from a perfect country (in a lot of ways) and we are terrible in integration but our social welfare compares favorably to the Nordic countries. So saying that the only reason Finland has it better is because they have less immigration/ a more homologous population seems false.

We have a 45% personal tax rate, a 29% company tax rate, and 21% VAT though. Personally I think a wealth tax and a European tax on profits should be added to this.
 
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coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,595
I have no doubt that if there was a bigger minority population, racism would evolve into an institutionalized issue like it is in the US/UK, primarily as a tool to accumulate capital.

Capitalism is still the dominant mode of production in a mixed market economy.
 

Camwi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,013
Yeah, but do they have as much FREEDOM as the United States of America?

They do? Well shit, that was my only talking point.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
Belgium has 25% "new belgians" (of which half are non EU - mostly Morrocan, Turkish and Congolese) - we also have free healthcare, free education, unemployment benefits, minimumwages etc comparable to the nordic countries. It's far from a perfect country (in a lot of ways) and we are terrible in integration but our social welfare compares favorably to the Nordic countries. So saying that the only reason Finland has it better is because they have less immigration/ a more homologous population seems false.

We have a 45% personal tax rate, a 29% company tax rate, and 21% VAT though.
But isn't Belgium without a government for more than a year now largely because of a disagreement over migration?
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
931
Belgium
That's just Belgium being Belgium.
Basically yeah.

But isn't Belgium without a government for more than a year now largely because of a disagreement over migration?
It’s because of how Belgium is structured mostly, if it was “just” migration it would’ve been solved already.

the north voted for right/conservative parties who also want to turn Belgium in a confederate state, the south for left/green progressive parties who are more unionistic.
 
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Kapten

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
804
Yeah, my brown as fuck family in örebro is dealing with the bit of the american dream where they tell to PoC "Ok, this is as far as you will be allowed to go in life, anything else will upset the real people".

I mean, they are having a great life, but there is a celling there.
Would love to hear more about this since I am living there aswell, and have done all my life.

But! As a straight white male in my 30's I clearly do not have the insights. Seriously, would love to hear more to learn.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
Basically yeah.


It’s because of how Belgium is structured mostly, if it was “just” migration it would’ve been solved already.

the north voted for right/conservative parties who also want to turn Belgium in a confederate state, the south for left/green progressive parties who are more unionistic.
I know, but the breaking point of the coalition was mostly because of the Global Compact for Migration. With the N-VA switching sides because of their bad results during the local election where the far right had great results.

With Vlaams Belang getting bigger and one of their core ideas being to restrict social aids to foreigners, surely we can see that the amount of ethnic diversity can play a part in regards to social rights?

Bear in mind that it's my understanding from the news coverage by french media so correct me if anything is wrong.
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
931
Belgium
Bear in mind that it's my understanding from the news coverage by french media so correct me if anything is wrong.
No, I think that's mostly correct. But the breaking of the coalition didn't lead to new elections, those were already planned for May 2019. The centre-right coalition of NVA-CD&V-OPENVLD-MR had 83 seats out of 150, but only after the elections only 63 seats remained. Thus the current deadlock.
 

Dultimate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
343
It's a good point about race but not the point of the article. As things currently stand, for the majority the American Dream is a farce. Other countries like Finland are doing it much, much better.

POC know what's up but white America are the ones who need to read articles like these and realize that their country could be treating them much much better if it wanted to.
 

J_ToSaveTheDay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,204
USA
My opinion is that the American dream has pretty much just been a dream for practically everyone that’s existed as an American. It’s never become a reality.

It’s been a further reach and a harder struggle for non-whites, too, but even economically poor-standing whites will delude themselves into any narrative that falsely gives them any sort of edge, even if it’s not necessarily providing them with economic security, because it at least grants them political power that non-whites can’t assume.

The American dream is stronger than ever, but it’s only because it’s a dream — and the more distant it gets from reality, the stronger it becomes. It’s not even lived by the few, because for the few that have insane economic standing AND the assumed powers of white privilege, they probably inherited it or did something fucking awful to achieve it. They’re not participating in “the dream,” they’re just participating in the status quo which makes it harder and harder for anyone but people like them to achieve a sense of social dignity and economic security.

Finland is doing better at providing social dignity and economic security for their citizens, but they’ve also carefully managed their citizenship to be homogenous. White privilege is called out less if everyone is white, but that doesn’t mean you don’t have it — you just have it by more strictly managed exclusion of other intermixed cultures. That’s not “the dream,” IMO — they don’t allow folks from anywhere else in the world to just freely move to and participate in and contribute to their system. Neither does America, but I just covered that. They’re not exactly the same perversions of the dream, but neither is actually representative of the dream either.

But that’s just my take.
 
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Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
Will America? In fact, has this country actually ever done that?

Black people were hauled here in chains against their will and a century of Jim Crow followed slavery, Native Americans wiped out after constant oppression and lies and then shoved into pockets where they waste away, Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and of course our policies and actions towards those south of us going back to forever.

The system set up in America since the start has done everything to oppose this "American Dream" ideal.
Is this a joke??? Like, have you ever been to any city in America? Why are you talking about things that happened 200 years ago, and not...you know...people getting off planes and staying here every day.

When Finland gets anything even remotely close to a Harlem, you call me. When Finland can produce many PoC that is put forward by its society for expressions in art, culture and ESPECIALLY socio-political issues, please call me.

We really need to stop with the "Europe is perfect and any issues it has aren't a big deal unless you are a Republican" stuff here. The hatred of America here with all these ignorant comments about buying Coke and AK-47 is really over the top and I'm not sure why it is even allowed!

To say your dream is "better", you actually have to have things like birthright citizenship and not having to be a Master in some high income career unless you are from a refugee. We have to have opinions from people that aren't a native of Finland.

Now, watch how this and similar comments from PoC in this thread are downplayed. When we don't see PoC front and center in your society, it's a red flag. Why is it if I go to all of Finland's news websites, I can't see one PoC? The real "dream" isn't about money...

a quick google shows the fraction of immigrants in america as 13.6%(decreasing over the last 30 years) compared to swedens 14.3%(increasing). Another quick google shows that america admit the equivalent of about 0.3% of their population per year, while sweden admits roughly 1%. So seems to me america is well behind the curve comparatively. Denmark and Norway are probably in the ballpark. Finland is definitely the least diverse of the Nordic countries.
Then we have totally tone deaf posts that look to a Google search to define some legal immigration number, which is a fraction of total immigration here. Amazing. Yes we have place like Miami because immigration is less there than in Sweden...but yeah, keep those calculators out to could exactly how many refugees you brought in, when thousands of people every year from some of those same countries are just walking off of planes here. But even if we play that numbers game, what is 13.6% of 300 million people, vs. 14% of 10 million people. An argument can be made that the NYC/NJ/CT area has just as many immigrants as that whole country.
 
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Chaos Legion

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,822
One thing to point out about the article is that taxes here aren't just high on the rich, they're high on everyone. And there's a value-added tax(VAT) on everything you buy too, so more is taken out of your paycheck and also everything is quite expensive. Also uses the term "Nordic socialism" or something, there's no such thing. Actual socialism is not popular here at all.
See, this is the actual conversation that politicians need to have with the electorate. In order to have these programs (and enable them to be sustainable!), it means a comprehensive reform of the tax code. It means that everyone needs to be taxed considerably more, not just the rich. But it’s political suicide to even suggest this notion so I’m not sure how we actually move America forward in that regard.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
Is this a joke??? Like, have you ever been to any city in America? Why are you talking about things that happened 200 years ago, and not...you know...people getting off planes and staying here every day.

When Finland gets anything even remotely close to a Harlem, you call me. When Finland can produce many PoC that is put forward by its society for expressions in art, culture and ESPECIALLY socio-political issues, please call me.
The question is most of this actually happened because the US welcomed minorities or was it because said minority had to fight for that recognition?

Produce is a really poor choice of word.

We really need to stop with the "Europe is perfect and any issues it has aren't a big deal unless you are a Republican" stuff here.
This is true though, especially since the situation in Europe regarding diversity widly varies by country.
 

andymoogle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,159
I'm with a lot of people here the second some brown and black people enter the country those benefits would get slowly stripped away.
It's already happening in Sweden. Less than 40% of the voters want leftist policies. In 2022, Sweden will most likely have a right wing government with the help of the far-right party.
 
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Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
The question is most of this actually happened because the US welcomed minorities or was it because said minority had to fight for that recognition?

Produce is a really poor choice of word.



This is true though, especially since the situation in Europe regarding diversity widly varies by country.
It doesn't matter, because those topics you brought up didn't have to do anything with immigration. And, the minorities that suffered those, didn't run to Finland when they got a chance to.

The vast majority of immigration happened after than, and especially after WW2...and if you go to any city where these cultures are still blossoming, with civic expressions such as parades and exhibits and laws giving undocumented workers driver's licenses and such...it's obvious they are being welcomed.

I don't understand why literally 100% of comments about America in this thread is through the gaze that everyone is a racist Republican except people on this thread...

Europe is far from perfect. But it has a better tax system. Finland can afford this because it taxes its citizens at a higher rate.
But alot of people in Finland disagree with those taxes...and that's my issue...let's not act like these countries are perfect and in agreement, while America commentary on politics is in the spotlight, and it comes out like "HOW DARE AMERICANS NOT ALL AGREE ON TAXES LIKE OURS"...and as these countries get a more diverse set of citizens, let's see how these laws hold up 10-20-50 years from now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,202
Racoon City
People seem to get hung up on the US having 12% immigrant population then doing a comparison on that alone ignoring that the US also has 12% black population, not only that but said population has relatively been the same size since the founding of this country. Hell I’d argue we were probably a larger share of the population in the 1600-1700s. Then add in the First Nations people who were here first

so again would the Nordic countries be as great as they are today if 12% of its population upon the country’s inception was black THEN over time it gained an additional 12-14% in other black and brown immigrants?

20-25% of the US population isn’t part of the white club in the eyes of white America. Would Nordic countries still be so great if 25% of its population wasn’t white?
 

coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,595
Is this a joke??? Like, have you ever been to any city in America? Why are you talking about things that happened 200 years ago, and not...you know...people getting off planes and staying here every day.

When Finland gets anything even remotely close to a Harlem, you call me. When Finland can produce many PoC that is put forward by its society for expressions in art, culture and ESPECIALLY socio-political issues, please call me.

We really need to stop with the "Europe is perfect and any issues it has aren't a big deal unless you are a Republican" stuff here. The hatred of America here with all these ignorant comments about buying Coke and AK-47 is really over the top and I'm not sure why it is even allowed!

To say your dream is "better", you actually have to have things like birthright citizenship and not having to be a Master in some high income career unless you are from a refugee. We have to have opinions from people that aren't a native of Finland.

Now, watch how this and similar comments from PoC in this thread are downplayed. When we don't see PoC front and center in your society, it's a red flag. Why is it if I go to all of Finland's news websites, I can't see one PoC? The real "dream" isn't about money...



Then we have totally tone deaf posts that look to a Google search to define some legal immigration number, which is a fraction of total immigration here. Amazing. Yes we have place like Miami because immigration is less there than in Sweden...but yeah, keep those calculators out to could exactly how many refugees you brought in, when thousands of people every year from some of those same countries are just walking off of planes here. But even if we play that numbers game, what is 13.6% of 300 million people, vs. 14% of 10 million people. An argument can be made that the NYC/NJ/CT area has just as many immigrants as that whole country.
I mean if you think US immigration of PoC is a sign of acceptance instead of a cheap and easy method to create a new market to exploit.. Then go off king.
 
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Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,534
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns from minority members. Previously banned for bigotry.
I feel like we have a constant deluge of threads on era that in one way or another shows how fucked up the US is, with American users actively expressing despair, frustration, hopelessness at the awful state of things in the US. Often pointing to other first world countries as proof things don't have to be the way they are in the US.

Yet the moment someone from those first world countries also points that out, US users here get hyper defensive and combative towards said nation.
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,577
It doesn't matter, because those topics you brought up didn't have to do anything with immigration. And, the minorities that suffered those, didn't run to Finland when they got a chance to.

The vast majority of immigration happened after than, and especially after WW2...and if you go to any city where these cultures are still blossoming, with civic expressions such as parades and exhibits and laws giving undocumented workers driver's licenses and such...it's obvious they are being welcomed.

I don't understand why literally 100% of comments about America in this thread is through the gaze that everyone is a racist Republican except people on this thread...



But alot of people in Finland disagree with those taxes...and that's my issue...let's not act like these countries are perfect and in agreement, while America commentary on politics is in the spotlight, and it comes out like "HOW DARE AMERICANS NOT ALL AGREE ON TAXES LIKE OURS"...and as these countries get a more diverse set of citizens, let's see how these laws hold up 10-20-50 years from now.
So you are talking out of your ass. In last research 98% of finns stated that paying taxes is very important to upkeep the welfare state. There are some taxes that are unpopular (like inheritance tax) but overall vast majority of finns happily pay taxes when they know about the things they get in return.
 

Shugga

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,875
I feel like we have a constant deluge of threads on era that in one way or another shows how fucked up the US is, with American users actively expressing despair, frustration, hopelessness at the awful state of things in the US. Often pointing to other first world countries as proof things don't have to be the way they are in the US.

Yet the moment someone from those first world countries also points that out, US users here get hyper defensive and combative towards said nation.
Ah but they don't have a perfect system so it doesn't count
The deflections are kinda crazy
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,361
I feel like we have a constant deluge of threads on era that in one way or another shows how fucked up the US is, with American users actively expressing despair, frustration, hopelessness at the awful state of things in the US. Often pointing to other first world countries as proof things don't have to be the way they are in the US.

Yet the moment someone from those first world countries also points that out, US users here get hyper defensive and combative towards said nation.
I believe part of the issue is that poc views are being ignored. They see alot, especially because many of us have been marginalized. And see the issues that are popping up in Europe.....around the time some of these places gained more poc. It is interesting to see the increase of the far right gaining popularity. Curious how far some of these countries will take it.
 
Aug 14, 2018
76
User Banned (Permanent): Xenophobia; racism.
When Finland gets anything even remotely close to a Harlem, you call me. When Finland can produce many PoC that is put forward by its society for expressions in art, culture and ESPECIALLY socio-political issues, please call me.
How many foreigners and PoC that have little to no grasp of the English language are a factor in art, culture and socio-political issues in the USA?

If someone moves to Finland they will have to learn Finnish, and depending on which part of the country you move to, Swedish in order to be able to be involved in socio-political issues. It's hard to have a voice if the people you speak to can't understand what you're saying.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
I mean if you think US immigration of PoC is a sign of acceptance instead of a cheap and easy method to create a new market to exploit.. Then go off king.
Is this a joke??? Do you know how many people just in my neighborhood that were not citizens that now own their own business? Who are they being exploited by...again, stop with this extreme negative viewpoint of America that people are working in sweatshops. Also, way to blow by the most important staement I made in bold, which always happens here.

How many foreigners and PoC that have little to no grasp of the English language are a factor in art, culture and socio-political issues in the USA?
Are you kidding me???????? We have whole cities of people doing this...we have multiple languages of TV networks and such! Are you trolling?

Like...Miami...San Diego...NYC...Chicago...
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,482
New York
I believe part of the issue is that poc views are being ignored. They see alot, especially because many of us have been marginalized. And see the issues that are popping up in Europe.....around the time some of these places gained more poc. It is interesting to see the increase of the far right gaining popularity. Curious how far some of these countries will take it.
Pretty much. I don’t really value homogeneous European nations bragging about how awesome they are.

And to answer your question they’ll take it very far. They always have.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,292
It doesn't matter, because those topics you brought up didn't have to do anything with immigration. And, the minorities that suffered those, didn't run to Finland when they got a chance to.

The vast majority of immigration happened after than, and especially after WW2...and if you go to any city where these cultures are still blossoming, with civic expressions such as parades and exhibits and laws giving undocumented workers driver's licenses and such...it's obvious they are being welcomed.

I don't understand why literally 100% of comments about America in this thread is through the gaze that everyone is a racist Republican except people on this thread...
That was the point of the post you quoted...
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,482
New York
How many foreigners and PoC that have little to no grasp of the English language are a factor in art, culture and socio-political issues in the USA?

If someone moves to Finland they will have to learn Finnish, and depending on which part of the country you move to, Swedish in order to be able to be involved in socio-political issues. It's hard to have a voice if the people you speak to can't understand what you're saying.
And there it is.... Let it out...