Finland's prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US

Oct 30, 2017
273
People seem to get hung up on the US having 12% immigrant population then doing a comparison on that alone ignoring that the US also has 12% black population, not only that but said population has relatively been the same size since the founding of this country. Hell I’d argue we were probably a larger share of the population in the 1600-1700s. Then add in the First Nations people who were here first

so again would the Nordic countries be as great as they are today if 12% of its population upon the country’s inception was black THEN over time it gained an additional 12-14% in other black and brown immigrants?

20-25% of the US population isn’t part of the white club in the eyes of white America. Would Nordic countries still be so great if 25% of its population wasn’t white?
I think what a lot of Americans ignore is the fact that Europeans differ by ethnicity first, because most of them are white anyway (well less so if you go to South Europe).

Eastern Europeans might be "white" by american standards but have never been on the same pedestal as Western Europeans, it's slowly changing because of the integration into the European Union though (and, sadly, because Europe has a new common enemy: muslim immigrants).

German Nazis already burned down Yugoslav refugee shelters in the 90s, despite them being white christians (aside from muslim Bosnians). Funny enough: A lot of the christian Balkan refugees here in Germany are against middle eastern refugees today, talk about hypocrisy.


That said, Germany for example has 13% migrants and 25% if you count germans with a foreign background or foreigners with a german passport.

5 - 6% of the german population are muslims, while USA probably 1%?

USA is 75% "white".


That said, Western Europe is far more diverse than Eastern Europe.
 

Trickster

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,534
I believe part of the issue is that poc views are being ignored. They see alot, especially because many of us have been marginalized. And see the issues that are popping up in Europe.....around the time some of these places gained more poc. It is interesting to see the increase of the far right gaining popularity. Curious how far some of these countries will take it.
European nations are absolutely not perfect and I would never try to argue that they are. There are massive issues with racism and fearmongering by far right movements all over the place.

But I just feel like US people can't really point to other first world nations as proof that the US can do better, and at the same time downplay how those exact same first world nations do things better using their populations being mostly one race as the reason.
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,361
I think what a lot of Americans ignore is the fact that Europeans differ by ethnicity first, because most of them are white anyway (well less so if you go to South Europe).

Eastern Europeans might be "white" by american standards but have never been on the same pedestal as Western Europeans, it's slowly changing because of the integration into the European Union though (and, sadly, because Europe has a new common enemy: muslim immigrants).

German Nazis already burned down Yugoslav refugee shelters in the 90s, despite them being white christians (aside from muslim Bosnians). Funny enough: A lot of the christian Balkan refugees here in Germany are against middle eastern refugees today, talk about hypocrisy.


That said, Germany for example has 13% migrants and 25% if you count germans with a foreign background or foreigners with a german passport.

5 - 6% of the german population are muslims, while USA probably 1%?

USA is 75% "white".


That said, Western Europe is far more diverse than Eastern Europe.
Hmmm that percentage of white in America is dependent on whether or not you're classified as Hispanic. So 72% including them. But it goes down to about 60% for non white Hispanics. Just to provide some more information. This year we should have more accurate numbers as it's census time.

European nations are absolutely not perfect and I would never try to argue that they are. There are massive issues with racism and fearmongering by far right movements all over the place.

But I just feel like US people can't really point to other first world nations as proof that the US can do better, and at the same time downplay how those exact same first world nations do things better using their populations being mostly one race as the reason.
They point to those nations because they want to have the same. But also realize that a big reason why we don't have it is because racism. And by some people's eyes, they see the start of that in some European countries. Some have been tested, and well it's not looking so good. Time will tell if they can overcome it.
 
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Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,891
Then we have totally tone deaf posts that look to a Google search to define some legal immigration number, which is a fraction of total immigration here. Amazing. Yes we have place like Miami because immigration is less there than in Sweden...but yeah, keep those calculators out to could exactly how many refugees you brought in, when thousands of people every year from some of those same countries are just walking off of planes here. But even if we play that numbers game, what is 13.6% of 300 million people, vs. 14% of 10 million people. An argument can be made that the NYC/NJ/CT area has just as many immigrants as that whole country.
You don't think we have illegal immigration in Nordic countries? As to your second point yes that's how percentages work. Absolute quantities vs relative quantities isn't that hard to grasp is it?
 
Aug 14, 2018
76
Are you kidding me???????? We have whole cities of people doing this...we have multiple languages of TV networks and such! Are you trolling?

Like...Miami...San Diego...NYC...Chicago...
From an outsider point of view there's English speaking art, media and politics and little else, just like I assume from an outsider point of view there are few to none PoC involved in those things in the Nordic countries even though that's not necessarily true.

Could things improve? Absolutely. Does racism exist in the Nordic countries? Absolutely, and it's despicable. But it's ludicrous to criticize the Nordic countries based on nothing but ignorance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,202
Racoon City
I think what a lot of Americans ignore is the fact that Europeans differ by ethnicity first, because most of them are white anyway (well less so if you go to South Europe).

Eastern Europeans might be "white" by american standards but have never been on the same pedestal as Western Europeans, it's slowly changing because of the integration into the European Union though (and, sadly, because Europe has a new common enemy: muslim immigrants).
Yea that's kind of how whiteness works. America was no different in this regard that X, Y, Z groups weren't seen as "white" but were welcomed to the club because the common enemy was/is black people. So Europe really isn't different at at all lol. Only difference is America has the race construct and "whiteness" embedded in its DNA, while Europe is just starting to discover how powerful it is politically.

German Nazis already burned down Yugoslav refugee shelters in the 90s, despite them being white christians (aside from muslim Bosnians). Funny enough: A lot of the christian Balkan refugees here in Germany are against middle eastern refugees today, talk about hypocrisy.


That said, Germany for example has 13% migrants and 25% if you count germans with a foreign background or foreigners with a german passport.

5 - 6% of the german population are muslims, while USA probably 1%?

USA is 75% "white".


That said, Western Europe is far more diverse than Eastern Europe.
You're missing a key component. America has ALWAYS had a permanent percent of it's population be non-white from even before the inception of the country. And in the southern region, many areas were white minority black slave majority. Germany has never had this. America upon it's founding had 12% of it's population be black and 4% of it's population be First Nations people. To put it much more succinctly, when creating the country, it's laws, it's government, state law, they were created with 15% of it's population were "undesireables" in mind. And they kept this in mind when adding other European immigrant groups to Club White, these groups were added in and assimilated politically and culturally into whiteness specifically bc they needed numbers against their perceived enemy; black and brown people.

Literally what you describing West Europe as doing, and proving the point many of us are making. These countries are only great because up until recent times you didn't have a sizeable black and brown population. Now that you have a "common enemy" in Muslim people who majority are visibly different and easy to mark as such, you're bringing other "white" Europeans into the white club just like America did. You just have the fortune of this happening now and not at the creation of your country and laws, but despite that those countries are reacting how America did
 
Oct 30, 2017
273
Yea that's kind of how whiteness works. America was no different in this regard that X, Y, Z groups weren't seen as "white" but were welcomed to the club because the common enemy was/is black people. So Europe really isn't different at at all lol.
I know. :P

You're missing a key component. America has ALWAYS had a permanent percent of it's population be non-white from even before the inception of the country. And in the southern region, many areas were white minority black slave majority. Germany has never had this. America upon it's founding had 12% of it's population be black and 4% of it's population be First Nations people. To put it much more succinctly, when creating the country, it's laws, it's government, state law, they were created with 15% of it's population were "undesireables" in mind. And they kept this in mind when adding other European immigrant groups to Club White, these groups were added in and assimilated politically and culturally into whiteness specifically bc they needed numbers against their perceived enemy; black and brown people.

Literally what you describing West Europe as doing, and proving the point many of us are making. These countries are only great because up until recent times you didn't have a sizeable black and brown population. Now that you have a "common enemy" in Muslim people who majority are visibly different and easy to mark as such, you're bringing other "white" Europeans into the white club just like America did. You just have the fortune of this happening now and not at the creation of your country and laws, but despite that those countries are reacting how America did
Yes, that's a fair point to make.

Even though you have to consider that Germany for example had a large influx of foreigners in the years after the second world war thanks to the "Gastarbeiter"-program, foreign workers who helped to build up the country again and were expected to leave after helping (but well, a lot of them just never left), that's why we have a huge turkish minority in this country for example.

So modern Germany is not as old as the USA but it's not like integration of foreigners just started 20 years ago, it dates back relatively close to the formation of the Germany you know today.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
You don't think we have illegal immigration in Nordic countries? As to your second point yes that's how percentages work. Absolute quantities vs relative quantities isn't that hard to grasp is it?
It's not even close to the scale that we have because if it was, you'd have at least ONE Sunset Park by now. Let's not act like myself or anyone I know can find any work of any scale where you live.

Don't play the dumb semantics game when we are clearly talking about expression and lack of a PoC community there...yeah Nordic countries have ZERO immigrants...that's the point I was making...another totally tone deaf white European...but I'm sure you are going to go to some website to tell me EXACTLY how many illegal immigrants you have...totally missing the point...

From an outsider point of view there's English speaking art, media and politics and little else, just like I assume from an outsider point of view there are few to none PoC involved in those things in the Nordic countries even though that's not necessarily true.

Could things improve? Absolutely. Does racism exist in the Nordic countries? Absolutely, and it's despicable. But it's ludicrous to criticize the Nordic countries based on nothing but ignorance.
Why do Europeans keep doing this in every thread about this? Stop bending the discussion to "Europe is the standard"...you always throw out numbers and expect those to make up for the fact that you keep ignoring this statement maid by multiple PoC here:

Where are the PoC visible in art, culture and especially discussing socio-political issues? Why is it constantly white people assuming that everyone else likes your country as much as you do...because that's the same thing white people have done for centuries! In every country! Boy these blacks have jobs and a roof over their head...what else to complain about?

So I'm sorry, but if you don't know about Univision, if you don't know that basically every pro sports team has at least Spanish speaking announcer...all the different language newspapers and radio stations...then you don't know America...full stop.

So, let's stop acting like you know everything about America because the totality of your knowledge about living here is totally based in negativity and that everything sucks. If the only things you know about America are negative, then you don't know much, because a cursory search on Google will show that most city newspapers in America has at least 1 story about a PoC...has PoC as columnist...we have thinkers that teach in school about PoC issues...

You keep saying that I don't know about the PoC in Finland....but I'm ask YOU...in every thread like this I'm asking people like you, who live in Europe and especially Scandinavia...where are the people of color expressing themselves in any public fashion? Do you know how many PoC write content JUST for the New York Times alone? Do you really think Finnish universities needs studies on black or asian or any other PoC issues any less than Americans?

I'm going to every Finnish website related to news and culture at a glance...not one PoC...

I'm sorry but having free social services and cheap college does not make a dream alone, any more than merely owning a house with a spouse and two kids. The number of Europeans that act like they are open minded when they come to New York City...then they cross the bridge to any other borough and many of the same fears and stereotypes manifest itself. Don't tell us that white people are capable of speaking for PoC.

Why is it that Marcus Samuelsson is just a refugee that became a chef in Sweden, but here he is a socio-political icon? If DJ Kool Herc came out of a project building 30 years ago with some turntables saying hey this is hip-hop...how would that play out there? And the simple answer is...we don't know! So don't act like you know because "hey Europeans are really swell and everything about America sucks for what it looks like with me putting in zero effort to find anything positive about that place!"

But I just feel like US people can't really point to other first world nations as proof that the US can do better, and at the same time downplay how those exact same first world nations do things better using their populations being mostly one race as the reason.
Literally not one PoC in this thread is doing that here, and to suggest so makes it seem we can't criticize Europe until America is a perfect utopia.

We know that free healthcare and free college would be good to have...but us lacking those things doesn't negate the positive things about America as well. And, we have alot of different people here, and many of those people don't agree on paying for healthcare for others...and that's the point! And to your points and the other points here...many Europeans nations aren't that great with dealing with other white people from Europe...for the same reasons. It's almost like it's insanely easy for a few million people of the same language, same cultural history, same beliefs...and living in mostly 2-3 cities per country...to agree with each other.

Again...just having a house with two kids a spouse and a dog in a car doesn't make a dream...and just having shelter with free healthcare and an improve social system doesn't make a dream. The point is, let's stop with "people would be so much happier in Finland"...because PoC are watching countries in Europe deal with races from outside Europe in real numbers, fir the first time...that don't have college degrees...they don't have your same value system...they don't speak your language...they don't have your religions and beliefs...and how they are being treated is the same that PoC have been treated when they have become newly introduced to white people, for centuries now.

Like...it's ridiculous...someone really said on the last page that immigrants in the US were only a commodity...oh so an immigrant in Queens working for Burger King is a slave to a corporation...but an immigrant work in a restaurant in Finland is like some pillar of the community?

I’m just saying that most of America’s problems are fundamentally rooted in race and racist views held by Europeans. So don’t be too quick to brag about how well your Nordic nations get along with life when any given slice of Nordic life looks like an episode of Friends....
BINGO...Europeans really believe that white Americans are from some other planet...no you've for centuries to keep people out, and now you want a pat on the back because you are doing it on your timeline and only for very specific circumstances.
 
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Dever

Banned
Dec 25, 2019
316
See, this is the actual conversation that politicians need to have with the electorate. In order to have these programs (and enable them to be sustainable!), it means a comprehensive reform of the tax code. It means that everyone needs to be taxed considerably more, not just the rich. But it’s political suicide to even suggest this notion so I’m not sure how we actually move America forward in that regard.
Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at.
 

Hodgy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,895
UK
And I think it's ignorant to ignore how much racism has impacted America's social policies. Something that is most likely not the same in your country. If you're gonna ignore that while pointing out how much better your country is then you might as well not say anything.
I'm not being ignorant of that. I'm not even Finnish, I'm a Brit and our social policies have also been massively shaped by racism. I'm just merely making the distinction that the US & UK aren't Finland and its presumptuous to extrapolate how our countries operate (which are fairly close in culture) to other countries.
 
Oct 30, 2017
273
(...)

BINGO...Europeans really believe that white Americans are from some other planet...no you've for centuries to keep people out, and now you want a pat on the back because you are doing it on your timeline and only for very specific circumstances.
I don't disagree with your points above, but this is just ignorant of European history. Europe was a clusterfuck for hundreds of years, hell it was fucked up until the second World War ended and beyond (Cold War, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia). This is what it looked like right before the United States was founded.

 

Madison

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,370
Lima, Peru
Considering how many black people get shot at or jailed by the police, I think that any american saying "yeah but you dont have the minorities we have" is pretty disrespectful
 

Mist

Love & Respect
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,013
Considering how many black people get shot at or jailed by the police, I think that any american saying "yeah but you dont have the minorities we have" is pretty disrespectful
I mean, some of the people saying this are black themselves and are speaking from their own knowledge and perspective of racism.
 

Poodlestrike

It's salt.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,541
Gotta agree with the takes about homogeneity. When you have a singular ethnic identity overwhelmingly represented in the population its a lot easier to set up these social wealth transfer programs than when there's an "other" for bigots and the self interested to rally against. You can see it kick into gear already with the rise of the far right across Europe in the wake of the migration crisis.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
I don't disagree with your points above, but this is just ignorant of European history. Europe was a clusterfuck for hundreds of years, hell it was fucked up until the second World War ended and beyond (Cold War, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia). This is what it looked like right before the United States was founded.

What does this even mean...you are proving my point! PoC didn't exist at the time of this map?

Considering how many black people get shot at or jailed by the police, I think that any american saying "yeah but you dont have the minorities we have" is pretty disrespectful
Again...stop defining America SOLELY by the negative. Why can't you or anyone answer:
-Where are the columnist and writers and reporters for any news organization, like, ever?
-What art and culture has been accepted by those countries that was created by PoC?
-Where are PoC as mayors and senators and such?
-What have PoC contributed to food and drink there?
-What universities there are teaching classes or have majors in regards to PoC issues like those that exist widely here?
-Where is birthright citizenship or something anywhere close to that?

If DJ Kool Herc walks out of the projects 30 years ago with some turntables and some friendly MCs and is like "this is rap", how is it accepted there? Why is it that someone that was raised in Sweden like Marcus Samuelsson is "just a chef" in Sweden, but becomes a social icon overnight here?

Representation matters everywhere...not just in the USA! Defining the experience of PoC solely through the lens of some racist Republican that you want to represent the whole experience here...is just as ignorant as saying "geez we have free healthcare so the police/politicians/establishment here must love PoC...

You say that American must be bad for PoC...how many of those people would be allowed to become citizens of these country?

Like we really had someone say in this thread that people need to speak the language to be accepted culturally there...do you know how many cities where saying something like that will end your chances at a political office in a liberal neighborhood, or even for mayor? How many politicians in Finland would lose votes for saying that?

See, this is the actual conversation that politicians need to have with the electorate. In order to have these programs (and enable them to be sustainable!), it means a comprehensive reform of the tax code. It means that everyone needs to be taxed considerably more, not just the rich. But it’s political suicide to even suggest this notion so I’m not sure how we actually move America forward in that regard.
Totally agree...I love how poorly it goes over here amongst Americans when I tell them that, by every standard, a single person making $100K a year is upper class. Alot of people that claim to be for these programs, would change their tune once they see how much should be removed from their paycheck. We have alot of people that don't realize that they were raised in an upper-class background. These countries with services aren't just taxing millionaires and billionaires (this was explain in another thread where people thought a 300 million people country could have all the services that Finland has just by taking millionaires/billionaires).

And to double down on my opinion, everyone in the world making over $150K is grossly undertaxed, no matter what the country...and whatever country that does have many social services could do better. I would love to be taxed for these services but I'll admit that when I went to London and saw how many times VAT taxes showed up on my receipts, I did a double take.
 
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Bosch

Member
May 15, 2019
1,488
American dream for Americans is to buy things, buy a lot of things using credit and most are unhappy with almost 1/3 of american adults taking meds for mental health

For nordic countries they pursuit a frugal life to be trully happy is totally diff.

Buy things all the time don't make anyone happy but Americans stills believe on this.
 

PspLikeANut

Member
May 20, 2018
500
The American dream has been a lie for a while now in the US. Its a strategy the ruling class uses to make you believe any one can make it. This idea gets beaten into our heads constantly through the media (owned by the ruling class btw) and we end up believing these ideals because it’s embedded in our head at a young age. It’s mostly BS.

“They call it the American dream , because you have to be asleep to believe it”- George Carlin
 
Jun 6, 2019
980
Yea that's kind of how whiteness works. America was no different in this regard that X, Y, Z groups weren't seen as "white" but were welcomed to the club because the common enemy was/is black people. So Europe really isn't different at at all lol. Only difference is America has the race construct and "whiteness" embedded in its DNA, while Europe is just starting to discover how powerful it is politically.



You're missing a key component. America has ALWAYS had a permanent percent of it's population be non-white from even before the inception of the country. And in the southern region, many areas were white minority black slave majority. Germany has never had this. America upon it's founding had 12% of it's population be black and 4% of it's population be First Nations people. To put it much more succinctly, when creating the country, it's laws, it's government, state law, they were created with 15% of it's population were "undesireables" in mind. And they kept this in mind when adding other European immigrant groups to Club White, these groups were added in and assimilated politically and culturally into whiteness specifically bc they needed numbers against their perceived enemy; black and brown people.

Literally what you describing West Europe as doing, and proving the point many of us are making. These countries are only great because up until recent times you didn't have a sizeable black and brown population. Now that you have a "common enemy" in Muslim people who majority are visibly different and easy to mark as such, you're bringing other "white" Europeans into the white club just like America did. You just have the fortune of this happening now and not at the creation of your country and laws, but despite that those countries are reacting how America did
Race and ethnicity is different in Europe, no doubt. White people were exterminated in death camps because they are Jews and Slavs. My white ass great grandfather was in a concentration camp because he was a subhuman Slav.
 

Nothing Loud

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,952
It's not even close to the scale that we have because if it was, you'd have at least ONE Sunset Park by now. Let's not act like myself or anyone I know can find any work of any scale where you live.

Don't play the dumb semantics game when we are clearly talking about expression and lack of a PoC community there...yeah Nordic countries have ZERO immigrants...that's the point I was making...another totally tone deaf white European...but I'm sure you are going to go to some website to tell me EXACTLY how many illegal immigrants you have...totally missing the point...



Why do Europeans keep doing this in every thread about this? Stop bending the discussion to "Europe is the standard"...you always throw out numbers and expect those to make up for the fact that you keep ignoring this statement maid by multiple PoC here:

Where are the PoC visible in art, culture and especially discussing socio-political issues? Why is it constantly white people assuming that everyone else likes your country as much as you do...because that's the same thing white people have done for centuries! In every country! Boy these blacks have jobs and a roof over their head...what else to complain about?

So I'm sorry, but if you don't know about Univision, if you don't know that basically every pro sports team has at least Spanish speaking announcer...all the different language newspapers and radio stations...then you don't know America...full stop.

So, let's stop acting like you know everything about America because the totality of your knowledge about living here is totally based in negativity and that everything sucks. If the only things you know about America are negative, then you don't know much, because a cursory search on Google will show that most city newspapers in America has at least 1 story about a PoC...has PoC as columnist...we have thinkers that teach in school about PoC issues...

You keep saying that I don't know about the PoC in Finland....but I'm ask YOU...in every thread like this I'm asking people like you, who live in Europe and especially Scandinavia...where are the people of color expressing themselves in any public fashion? Do you know how many PoC write content JUST for the New York Times alone? Do you really think Finnish universities needs studies on black or asian or any other PoC issues any less than Americans?

I'm going to every Finnish website related to news and culture at a glance...not one PoC...

I'm sorry but having free social services and cheap college does not make a dream alone, any more than merely owning a house with a spouse and two kids. The number of Europeans that act like they are open minded when they come to New York City...then they cross the bridge to any other borough and many of the same fears and stereotypes manifest itself. Don't tell us that white people are capable of speaking for PoC.

Why is it that Marcus Samuelsson is just a refugee that became a chef in Sweden, but here he is a socio-political icon? If DJ Kool Herc came out of a project building 30 years ago with some turntables saying hey this is hip-hop...how would that play out there? And the simple answer is...we don't know! So don't act like you know because "hey Europeans are really swell and everything about America sucks for what it looks like with me putting in zero effort to find anything positive about that place!"


Literally not one PoC in this thread is doing that here, and to suggest so makes it seem we can't criticize Europe until America is a perfect utopia.

We know that free healthcare and free college would be good to have...but us lacking those things doesn't negate the positive things about America as well. And, we have alot of different people here, and many of those people don't agree on paying for healthcare for others...and that's the point! And to your points and the other points here...many Europeans nations aren't that great with dealing with other white people from Europe...for the same reasons. It's almost like it's insanely easy for a few million people of the same language, same cultural history, same beliefs...and living in mostly 2-3 cities per country...to agree with each other.

Again...just having a house with two kids a spouse and a dog in a car doesn't make a dream...and just having shelter with free healthcare and an improve social system doesn't make a dream. The point is, let's stop with "people would be so much happier in Finland"...because PoC are watching countries in Europe deal with races from outside Europe in real numbers, fir the first time...that don't have college degrees...they don't have your same value system...they don't speak your language...they don't have your religions and beliefs...and how they are being treated is the same that PoC have been treated when they have become newly introduced to white people, for centuries now.

Like...it's ridiculous...someone really said on the last page that immigrants in the US were only a commodity...oh so an immigrant in Queens working for Burger King is a slave to a corporation...but an immigrant work in a restaurant in Finland is like some pillar of the community?


BINGO...Europeans really believe that white Americans are from some other planet...no you've for centuries to keep people out, and now you want a pat on the back because you are doing it on your timeline and only for very specific circumstances.
This and your other post are really good posts.

As someone who is half Danish, half Colombian, full American citizen, I see all the pros and cons, and yes America has guns and no free healthcare and a major student debt crisis, but we have a diversity that is unlike anything on this planet. And white Nordic Europeans take a lot of pride in their countries and lifestyles, and there is a lot to admire and learn from there, but you guys could learn a LOT from America’s diversity and liberalism. The most progressive parts of America have things unlike the rest of the world. Like legal, regulated weed.

I grew up in Houston, the most racially diverse city in the US. The demographic is pretty much unimaginable for Northern Europe. Everywhere you go was a gradient of skin colors and languages and cuisine. We had fucking Viet-Cajun food. Where can you get a good taco in Denmark? Can I go to the local university and get a Masters in Afro-Caribbean History? A crowded restaurant in Houston will have a handful of languages being spoken at a time between customers. Saying you should only speak English in America is considered racist here, but enforcing a national language in Scandinavia is just considered good and normal. Northern Europe feels extremely white, and as soon as it got overwhelmed by brown immigrants (the Syrian refugee crisis), you started to see the racist xenophobia come out. Nobody has handled immigration over the last 250 years like America has, and for all its sins and mistakes, it also gives us a perspective on race and class issues that is missing in parts of Europe.
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,577
This and your other post are really good posts.

As someone who is half Danish, half Colombian, full American citizen, I see all the pros and cons, and yes America has guns and no free healthcare and a major student debt crisis, but we have a diversity that is unlike anything on this planet. And white Nordic Europeans take a lot of pride in their countries and lifestyles, and there is a lot to admire and learn from there, but you guys could learn a LOT from America’s diversity and liberalism. The most progressive parts of America have things unlike the rest of the world.

I grew up in Houston, the most racially diverse city in the US. The demographic is pretty much unimaginable for Northern Europe. Everywhere you go was a gradient of skin colors and languages and cuisine. We had fucking Viet-Cajun food. Where can you get a good taco in Denmark? Can I go to the local university and get a Masters in Afro-Caribbean History? A crowded restaurant in Houston will have a handful of languages being spoken at a time between customers. Northern Europe feels extremely white, and as soon as it got overwhelmed by brown immigrants (the Syrian refugee crisis), you started to see the racist xenophobia come out. Nobody has handled immigration over the last 250 years like America has, and for all its sins and mistakes, it also gives us a perspective on race and class issues that is missing in parts of Europe.
My problem with these threads is that you don't even have to look for Nordics to show that you can actually have competent welfare systems and diversity. Just look at your northern neighbor. Canada has way higher social and economic mobility than US.
 

Nothing Loud

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,952
My problem with these threads is that you don't even have to look for Nordics to show that you can actually have competent welfare systems and diversity. Just look at your northern neighbor. Canada has way higher social and economic mobility than US.
This is true. I’m not here to defend USA’s conservatism and now I live 2 hours from the Canadian border. They’re doing immigration so right that we might move there in the future. But Canada is cold :x

Anyway, the whole “be jealous of Scandinavia” sentiment is just a whole different ball game for PoC. Many PoC would never even get hired in Scandinavian countries.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
We had fucking Viet-Cajun food. Where can you get a good taco in Denmark? Can I go to the local university and get a Masters in Afro-Caribbean History? A crowded restaurant in Houston will have a handful of languages being spoken at a time between customers. Saying you should only speak English in America is considered racist here, but enforcing a national language in Scandinavia is just considered good and normal. Northern Europe feels extremely white, and as soon as it got overwhelmed by brown immigrants (the Syrian refugee crisis), you started to see the racist xenophobia come out. Nobody has handled immigration over the last 250 years like America has, and for all its sins and mistakes, it also gives us a perspective on race and class issues that is missing in parts of Europe.
Thank you for posting this, this is literally the whole point that people are making here. Stop telling us that PoC in Finland MUST be happy because white people said they should be happy for the same reasons they are.

I had a funny story of someone from Sweden that subletted in my apartment for awhile...was all oh I'm open-minded and we have this and we have that...then I showed her the type of politicians getting elected in NYC and she was like "WHAT YOU ARE ELECTING PEOPLE WITHOUT COLLEGE DEGREES AND AREN'T FLUENT IN ENGLISH" 😂 She said the same thing (you can't serve in office unless you are educated and speak the language) and I told her that if she said that outside she would easily be branded a racist since just my street has like 4 different languages being spoken at any time.

Mysteriously, she only ever hung out in Manhattan and stop staying at the apartment as much until her stay was over...weird how that happens...

My problem with these threads is that you don't even have to look for Nordics to show that you can actually have competent welfare systems and diversity. Just look at your northern neighbor. Canada has way higher social and economic mobility than US.
But that's one country, and the largest province has a conservative leadership that is trying to bring down as many of those institutions as well. Again, no one is saying that these programs wouldn't be great...it's just that there is alot going on here. Different nations have different issues...you can't copy and paste socio-political opinions across an electorate. Not having social programs like Europe, doesn't mean America sucks and anyone that doesn't hate it here is stupid.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,482
New York
I don't disagree with your points above, but this is just ignorant of European history. Europe was a clusterfuck for hundreds of years, hell it was fucked up until the second World War ended. This is what it looked like right before the United States was founded.

Yes...and when you introduce black and brown people in substantial numbers Europeans tend to form-up like Voltron. It’s not Ignorance of European history (how can that be, it’s all that gets taught in school) it’s just all those differences that keep white people fighting with other white people tend to fall to the side once black and brown people get introduced.


Considering how many black people get shot at or jailed by the police, I think that any american saying "yeah but you dont have the minorities we have" is pretty disrespectful
How so? How does that negate my view that a homogeneous nation shouldn’t really brag about how awesome their nation is compared to America since they solved the race issue by simply not having a large black/brown population? America would be like that too if it were all white.
 
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Redcrayon

Zoinks!
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
6,785
Hmmm that percentage of white in America is dependent on whether or not you're classified as Hispanic. So 72% including them. But it goes down to about 60% for non white Hispanics. Just to provide some more information. This year we should have more accurate numbers as it's census time.


They point to those nations because they want to have the same. But also realize that a big reason why we don't have it is because racism. And by some people's eyes, they see the start of that in some European countries. Some have been tested, and well it's not looking so good. Time will tell if they can overcome it.
The rise of the far right across Europe is indeed not looking good. I wouldn’t say it started recently though. Certainly here in the UK, while there has been a rise in racism/hate crime following the referendum, racism has been an issue for as long as I can remember, fuelled by a print media that revels in it. It’s more of a resurgence, following a rebrand into the seemingly more publicly acceptable stance of rampant xenophobia with endless columnist rants about ‘migrants‘ instead. A change of framing for several years that allowed editors to say racist shit to the readers of all the most popular papers, in a country with hate speech laws without referring to race and being prosecuted. Now it’s just emboldened once more. For every small step forward in pushing back against it in one aspect (employment, law, representation etc) it continues to pop up again in different guises elsewhere.
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,577
This is true. I’m not here to defend USA’s conservatism and now I live 2 hours from the Canadian border. They’re doing immigration so right that we might move there in the future. But Canada is cold :x

Anyway, the whole “be jealous of Scandinavia” sentiment is just a whole different ball game for PoC. Many PoC would never even get hired in Scandinavian countries.
I mean while no doubt employment is harder for PoCs (at least outside jobs where we have severe lack of employees) it's not some mission impossible situation if you have education for the job you seek. really also depends on the field and how international the company is (so they probably already have decent amount of PoC employed). Also if you are citizen you still get all the benefits of the welfare system no matter of your skin color (education, medical care, unemployment benefits) so at least your basic life necessities are taken care of without needing to worry about losing apartment or being bankrupted by illness. I guess the time shows how second generation immigrants that have had all these systems there for them from the start will be employed. Remember that non european immigration to Nordics in larger scale started like 15 years ago. It's not some utopia and obviously we have our problems with racism (like the popularity of right wing party shows) but even as now PoCs have most of the same advantages in terms of economic mobility as the natives.
 

coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,595
Is this a joke??? Do you know how many people just in my neighborhood that were not citizens that now own their own business? Who are they being exploited by...again, stop with this extreme negative viewpoint of America that people are working in sweatshops. Also, way to blow by the most important staement I made in bold, which always happens here.
Then explain the horrendous wealth gap in the USA. Wealth is hoarded by shareholders and executives, that all happen to be white americans, with a sole focus on accumulation through privatisation and austerity, not redistribution. Working class, which minorities overwhelmingly are, aren't getting back what they are putting into the economy. If they were, it should be seen via a strong public sector...What's happened to your infrastructure? Housing? Where's your free healthcare? etc etc

Finland hasn't put forward many PoC but .... US society didn't produce shit for black people. In fact, white America has stolen and erased just as much as what black people have managed to fight tooth and nail to produce. It wasn't from the good grace of the liberal and open America you're describing.
 
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Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
Then explain the horrendous wealth gap in the USA. Wealth is hoarded by shareholders and executives, that all happen to be white americans, with a sole focus on accumulation through privatisation and austerity, not redistribution. Working class, which minorities overwhelmingly are, aren't getting back what they are putting into the economy. If it was, it should be seen via a strong public sector...Whats happened to your infrastructure? Housing? Where's your free healthcare? etc etc

Finland hasn't put forward many PoC but .... US society didn't produce shit for black people. In fact, white America has stolen and erased just as much as what black people have managed to fight tooth and nail to produce. It weren't from the good grace of the liberal and open America you're describing.
What is this? What does this have to do with Finland? Let me guess, another European that's never been here and if they have, it's in the very most tourist parts of a downtown...Again, your whole argument is to the extreme negative of the US...stop basing how good or bad the US is solely on what you perceive from a European standpoint.

I'm not doing this question dodging again...if what you say is true, then why aren't people FLOODING airports and such to leave......why is it not the life goal of everyone here to move away immediately...oh that's right because countries like Finland have skyhigh immigration requirements that restrict most people coming in that aren't already upper-class. We have plenty of PoC that are rich and plenty of PoC that own their businesses...and yes (SHOCK) their own corporations...like I said to the other poster, let's stop acting like all PoC work at McDonalds or some sweatshops.

Your whole post is just to shit on the US and has NOTHING to do with Finland. Why can America be scrutinized endlessly here, but people ask for ONE PoC that works in news organizations or that teachers minority issues in universities in the HISTORY of these countries and this is the responses we get. Who said anything about good graces and liberal this and whatever...representation matters for everyone, full stop. You all can't answer any of these questions genuinely?

I'll put it differently...let's say America is the worse nation ever and life here everyday for everyone is worse than cancer...how does that help me get immigrated to these nations? I have to hope to get bombed or a major natural disaster to happen so that a few thousand of us can be declared refugees?

Stop acting like you care about PoC, mentioning all these textbook liberal school negatives, when you don't even want to acknowledge our opinions in this thread...which is the whole point. If you only want to hear PoC say negatives things about America and positive things about Europe then you don't care.
 
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Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
But clearly by your whole tone, you aren't going to believe any number I say. Then I'm supposed to do research for you and prove to you something that you will never believe because you obviously think I'm some ignorant Trump voter for not placating your anger?

Yes, immigrants and former immigrants owning business in NYC is totally rare...amazing...yeah every corner store just within a block radius of where I live isn't owned by a former immigrant or a current immigrant.

Can I ask, are you a PoC?
 

jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
Interesting topic and would love to contribute more but it's valentines and oh well. There is huge cultural difference and something I just can't "get" even if I try to read some multiple times.

countries like Finland have skyhigh immigration requirements that restrict most people coming in that aren't already upper-class. We have plenty of PoC that are rich and plenty of PoC that own their businesses...and yes (SHOCK) their own corporations...like I said to the other poster, let's stop acting like all PoC work at McDonalds or some sweatshops.
This is true and something to take note of is that even if worker rights in finland are very good, it is very hard to start businessess and if you screw up your life is ruined. Many people killed themselves during 90s depression and just now people who lost their businesses and went bankrupt are starting to be without debt.

As for the pocs and their businesses, in capital city area there are few poc families who own pretty much all ethnic restaurants and popular bars in "hipster" area so it's false to say pocs have no chance for success here.

Skyrocket immigration requirements are true in usa in my understanding tought too? At least to get working visa?
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
As for the pocs and their businesses, in capital city area there are few poc families who own pretty much all ethnic restaurants and popular bars in "hipster" area so it's false to say pocs have no chance for success here.

Skyrocket immigration requirements are true in usa in my understanding tought too? At least to get working visa?
Just want to clarify that no one is saying this here. Also...by every measure, the US is the easiest country for people to immigrate to...this is what I meant by "walking off the plane"...most immigration isn't due to getting a work visa and is "under the table". It's a big reason why people like AOC are trying to abolish ICE.

EDIT: And just to add to this, you are kinda of making the point...have you read any articles or heard any commentary from PoC who spoke about what they felt were their chances of success, as opposed to white Finnish people?
 
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Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,755
But clearly by your whole tone, you aren't going to believe any number I say. Then I'm supposed to do research for you and prove to you something that you will never believe because you obviously think I'm some ignorant Trump voter for not placating your anger?

Yes, immigrants and former immigrants owning business in NYC is totally rare...amazing...yeah every corner store just within a block radius of where I live isn't owned by a former immigrant or a current immigrant.

Can I ask, are you a PoC?
I'm not, but I'm saying that imprecise anecdotal feelings from a neoghborhood or even a few cities, doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially when it comes to NYC, which is a pretty extreme outlier.

And no, I don't think you're a Trumper lol.

Edit: BTW, you're the one acting angry, I only posted a single two word question in this entire thread which you extrapolated a whole lot from.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
I'm not, but I'm saying that imprecise anecdotal feelings from a neighborhood or or even a few cities, doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially when it comes to NYC, which is a pretty extreme outlier.

And no, I don't think your a Trumper lol.
Anecdotal feelings? Look how many PoC from different places are telling you the same thing. NYC isn't an outlier at all...it's most of the cities, and some cities like Miami, Las Vegas, San Diego and Houston have heavier or equal populations, and they would be a ghost town without its immigrant populations...but even a cursory search in Google would show that. Other cities like New Orleans, Philadelphia and Los Angeles have had immigrants opening business in droves for awhile now.

I don't understand why you would question something that is true by every measure...I don't understand how you can read anything historical, or anything modern in socio-economic discussions, about these cities, that doesn't have immigrants front and center.

And yet, still, three pages in...no one wants to honestly answer any of the questions that PoC here are proposing. Why is it that someone says "this PoC has a restaurant in Finland", we are expected to automatically believe it, despite PoC having zero visibility in any way, besides being part of the workforce...but multiple people are saying things about what it is like here in the USA, and all of a sudden we need all of these receipts. So only negative things about the US are true?

And I am angry because we have white Europeans, essentially telling PoC that are Americans that they are lying about their experiences here, while not being able to produce a single PoC that can speak to those experiences in Finland. White Europeans are telling PoC that we are essentially sellouts or stupid for believing (AND KNOWING, because...we live here) that representation in art, culture, education and news/opinions matters everywhere, and when it isn't there, intolerance happens and things are taken away from us?
 
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Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,361
I'm not, but I'm saying that imprecise anecdotal feelings from a neoghborhood or even a few cities, doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially when it comes to NYC, which is a pretty extreme outlier.

And no, I don't think you're a Trumper lol.

Edit: BTW, you're the one acting angry, I only posted a single two word question in this entire thread which you extrapolated a whole lot from.
Just a cursory search. But I think it answers your question a bit. Tho, it doesn't specify poc. Will need a bit more time for that.

mbda

Overall Findings

  • Immigrants are found to have higher business ownership and formation rates than non-immigrants. Roughly one out of ten immigrant workers owns a business and 620 of 100,000 immigrants (0.62 percent) start a business each month.
  • Immigrant-owned businesses start with higher levels of startup capital than non-immigrant-owned businesses. Nearly 20 percent of immigrant-owned businesses started with $50,000 or more in startup capital, compared with 15.9 percent of non-immigrant-owned businesses.
  • Roughly two-thirds of immigrant-owned businesses report that the most common source of startup capital is personal or family savings. Other commonly reported sources of startup capital by immigrant businesses are credit cards, bank loans, personal or family assets, and home equity loans. Overall, the sources of startup capital used by immigrant businesses do not differ substantially from those used by non-immigrant firms.
NewAmericanEconomy
Key findings include:

  • In 2017 alone, households led by immigrants earned $1.5 trillion in total income and contributed $405 billion in tax revenues to federal, state, and local governments, leaving them with $1.1 trillion in spending power.
  • About 3.2 million immigrants ran their own businesses, making up one in every five entrepreneurs in the country.
  • Immigrant-owned businesses employed almost 8 million American workers and generated $1.3 trillion in total sales.
  • Immigrants contributed to 28 percent of the population growth in the United States between 2016 and 2017.
  • Between 2016 and 2017, the number of immigrant homeowners grew by 4.6 percent, from 9.1 million to 9.5 million.
 

Saks for ost

Member
Oct 27, 2017
211
Oslo
What does this even mean...you are proving my point! PoC didn't exist at the time of this map?
Again...stop defining America SOLELY by the negative. Why can't you or anyone answer:
Thanks for an interesting row of questions. Made me think. I'm from Norway, so can only answer for this country but:


-Where are the columnist and writers and reporters for any news organization, like, ever?


Several people mostly of Pakistani and Somali origin write for the biggest newspapers, or are part of the public discourse.

-What art and culture has been accepted by those countries that was created by PoC?

Apart from maybe the biggest pop act in the country "Karpe diem" and some authors, some but not many (I mostly follow books/music tho)

-Where are PoC as mayors and senators and such?

There are only 4 of 169 members of parliament that have minority background. One of them is a minister in the conservative minority government.

I know there are more minority background politicians around the country, but could not find numbers.

-What have PoC contributed to food and drink there?

Hmmmmm, Indian, Arabian, Asian food mostly. Resturants with cuisine from African countries are mostly in the big cities like Oslo and Bergen.

-What universities there are teaching classes or have majors in regards to PoC issues like those that exist widely here?

Both the university of Oslo and Bergen have this, AFAIK. (someone please correct me if I am wrong, I attended middle eastern and north africa studies myself, but know there are studies on PoC issues/history too)

-Where is birthright citizenship or something anywhere close to that?

I for sure was under the impression we had birthright citizenship here, but no!

"As with almost every country in the world, citizenship by birth is not applicable in Norway, unless the child has a Norwegian parent. This means children of a foreign-born couple do not automatically become Norwegian citizens. However, if you were born in Norway to foreign parents, or moved here as a child, there is a shorter residence period requirement for the citizenship application. " from https://www.lifeinnorway.net/norwegian-citizenship/


Sorry for the kinda off topic post.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
Thanks for an interesting row of questions. Made me think. I'm from Norway, so can only answer for this country but:


-Where are the columnist and writers and reporters for any news organization, like, ever?

Several people mostly of Pakistani and Somali origin write for the biggest newspapers, or are part of the public discourse.

-What art and culture has been accepted by those countries that was created by PoC?

Apart from maybe the biggest pop act in the country "Karpe diem" and some authors, some but not many (I mostly follow books/music tho)

-Where are PoC as mayors and senators and such?

There are only 4 of 169 members of parliament that have minority background. One of them is a minister in the conservative minority government.

I know there are more minority background politicians around the country, but could not find numbers.

-What have PoC contributed to food and drink there?

Hmmmmm, Indian, Arabian, Asian food mostly. Resturants with cuisine from African countries are mostly in the big cities like Oslo and Bergen.

-What universities there are teaching classes or have majors in regards to PoC issues like those that exist widely here?

Both the university of Oslo and Bergen have this, AFAIK. (someone please correct me if I am wrong, I attended middle eastern and north africa studies myself, but know there are studies on PoC issues/history too)

-Where is birthright citizenship or something anywhere close to that?

I for sure was under the impression we had birthright citizenship here, but no!

"As with almost every country in the world, citizenship by birth is not applicable in Norway, unless the child has a Norwegian parent. This means children of a foreign-born couple do not automatically become Norwegian citizens. However, if you were born in Norway to foreign parents, or moved here as a child, there is a shorter residence period requirement for the citizenship application. " from https://www.lifeinnorway.net/norwegian-citizenship/


Sorry for the kinda off topic post.
No worries, I really appreciate it...thanks for answering the question.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,482
I'm glad there seems to be more and more people pushing back against articles and narratives like this.

PoC should not be ignored if you want to pat yourself on the back for what a great society you've built. A society without us. We're still here, we've always been here.
 

coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,595
What is this? What does this have to do with Finland? Let me guess, another European that's never been here and if they have, it's in the very most tourist parts of a downtown...Again, your whole argument is to the extreme negative of the US...stop basing how good or bad the US is solely on what you perceive from a European standpoint.

I'm not doing this question dodging again...if what you say is true, then why aren't people FLOODING airports and such to leave......why is it not the life goal of everyone here to move away immediately...oh that's right because countries like Finland have skyhigh immigration requirements that restrict most people coming in that aren't already upper-class. We have plenty of PoC that are rich and plenty of PoC that own their businesses...and yes (SHOCK) their own corporations...like I said to the other poster, let's stop acting like all PoC work at McDonalds or some sweatshops.

Your whole post is just to shit on the US and has NOTHING to do with Finland. Why can America be scrutinized endlessly here, but people ask for ONE PoC that works in news organizations or that teachers minority issues in universities in the HISTORY of these countries and this is the responses we get. Who said anything about good graces and liberal this and whatever...representation matters for everyone, full stop. You all can't answer any of these questions genuinely?

I'll put it differently...let's say America is the worse nation ever and life here everyday for everyone is worse than cancer...how does that help me get immigrated to these nations? I have to hope to get bombed or a major natural disaster to happen so that a few thousand of us can be declared refugees?

Stop acting like you care about PoC, mentioning all these textbook liberal school negatives, when you don't even want to acknowledge our opinions in this thread...which is the whole point. If you only want to hear PoC say negatives things about America and positive things about Europe then you don't care.
i'm black ffs.

Maybe i'm just shit at explaining things so here:



If you as a PoC want to move from the US to Finland you could.... Get rich... Oh wait there's no economic mobility for minorities as pointed out in the above ^^^^
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
i'm black ffs.

Maybe i'm just shit at explaining things so here:



If you as a PoC want to move from the US to Finland you could.... Get rich... Oh wait there's no economic mobility for minorities as pointed out in the above ^^^^
But no one is disputing any of this. Yes...America has plenty of negatives. What does that have to do with Finland? Are you really saying that their aren't millions of PoC in America that can't afford a one way ticket there? As critical as I am being, even I'm not saying you have to be "rich" to be able to immigrate there...come on, black people alone are pumping billions into the economy. Yes there is a huge racial gap in everything in society...and that's not enough to qualify to be a refugee to get into any of these nations. There is nothing in those links that will allow you to immigrate to any of those countries.

I don't even know what you are talking about besides trying to get someone to agree with you on a totally different subject? The only people that think "the American Dream" is ONLY based on reaching some financial goal, are ignorant people, and people who listen to ignorant people.

But yes...there is racial inequality and a huge wealth gap...so why isn't Finland and other countries opening the doors for us if things are so much dramatically better there?

Yeah let's copy and paste policies from other places...it's so simple! Just say it on a message board and it happens, right? But yet when other places are asked to copy and paste things we do well, we get maps from the colonial era...
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,414
Same could be said for Canada for exemple where it's extremely hard to gain citizenship as an immigrant.
Wait what? I’m Canadian and my family immigrated when I was 18. I know quite a few super successful refugees from Uganda that came around the same time as my family. We all got citizenship soon as we were eligible. I love Canada. I lived in the US too for 6 years but Canada feels like a lot less barriers. There is still racism but not like the US where I’ve had it in my face a few times.
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,124
Boston/Helsinki
This and your other post are really good posts.

As someone who is half Danish, half Colombian, full American citizen, I see all the pros and cons, and yes America has guns and no free healthcare and a major student debt crisis, but we have a diversity that is unlike anything on this planet. And white Nordic Europeans take a lot of pride in their countries and lifestyles, and there is a lot to admire and learn from there, but you guys could learn a LOT from America’s diversity and liberalism. The most progressive parts of America have things unlike the rest of the world. Like legal, regulated weed.

I grew up in Houston, the most racially diverse city in the US. The demographic is pretty much unimaginable for Northern Europe. Everywhere you go was a gradient of skin colors and languages and cuisine. We had fucking Viet-Cajun food. Where can you get a good taco in Denmark? Can I go to the local university and get a Masters in Afro-Caribbean History? A crowded restaurant in Houston will have a handful of languages being spoken at a time between customers. Saying you should only speak English in America is considered racist here, but enforcing a national language in Scandinavia is just considered good and normal. Northern Europe feels extremely white, and as soon as it got overwhelmed by brown immigrants (the Syrian refugee crisis), you started to see the racist xenophobia come out. Nobody has handled immigration over the last 250 years like America has, and for all its sins and mistakes, it also gives us a perspective on race and class issues that is missing in parts of Europe.
This is in my opinion a good post, and unlike Akita One's, it's grounded in a contextual understanding of both geographies under discussion. I live in the US and Finland almost half and half during a year - and can weigh in on a couple of issues. First, "social mobility" is not defined by the number of people who can become millionaires and billionaires, it is largely about moving from working class to middle class, or not being stuck as working poor. This is why the US is doing shit in that WEF report Marin was referring to...but she does not fully comprehend what the modern American dream is...

In defense of Finland: It is clear that social mobility is working better in Finland than in the US, no matter the ethic or racial background, this is because the social-economic political and educational systems are constructed around much sounder principles than "free market" rational. The economic system is not at large founded on institutional racism and other forms of dispossession of the marginalized as a way to extract surplus value. The idea that the reason the social welfare state has worked is the lack of brown and black people, is inherently racist and oddly enough one of the most popular talking points in Finland among the far right. Since hypothetical situations are thrown around, if in both countries racism by a magic wand would be removed it is abundantly clear that in the US the oppression and dispossession would just move to another group, simply because it is the fundament upon which that variety of capitalism is built - an extreme inequality between rich and poor. What most Americans are looking for is seemingly what could be called "equal opportunity oppression" - simply because we cannot imagine equality outside some form of obscene economic inequality. In Finland there are very few homeless and their racial makeup is either white or roma (Eastern Europe)

Against Finland: Finland at large is a xenophobic country, also in comparison to the US, the amount of white nationalists is probably a bit lower but casual racists who feel they can freely use racial slurs, make up I would say a good 30-40% of the population outside the metro, and the xenophobia is exasperated usually when there is a downturn in economy. Finland at large is an extremely white country - especially in relation to Sweden, and to a certain extent Denmark. Like in most European countries the metropolitan area is the only real exception, when I'm in Finland I live in an area in the capital where "people of foreign descent" (which is the only way "race" is measured in both Finland and Sweden, and this means in terms of statistics people who either themselves or whose both parents were born abroad. There is no census and no statistics are kept on race) make up 30% of the population, and where 40-60% of the children speak a foreign language at home (meaning anything than Finnish, Swedish or Sámi, the indigenous language) - still this is nothing in comparison to Houston or similar in terms of diversity, as the largest ethnic group in those areas are Russians - who also get their fair share of xenophobia because of Finland's history with Russia, so in these kind of areas you'd get people of Middle Eastern descent at around 15% mostly Iraqi and people of African descent, mostly Somali, at around 10%. In real terms these numbers are a bit higher (add about 20%, the same as the difference between foreign descent and foreign language) because the statistics is 1st generation and we are now at 2nd generation for these ethnic backgrounds. However, this diversity is not particularly visible in daily life, outside of the schools, in part because in Finland at large you have very limited entrepreneurship, setting up shop (for anyone) is very regulated and you need quite massive amount of capital to set up even a restaurant because of all the legalese you have to go through, which you usually need Finnish to manage. The Finnish language is extremely hard to learn and useless outside of Finland, and a huge roadblock for any one moving to Finland who wish to enter the labor market. The Finnish climate is shit, I have worked with quite of a lot of Syrian refugees and I can tell you, coming to Finland is loooow on their list because of the weather, the Finns are generally complete introverts and as a scarcely populated country it can become depressing as fuck. The non-metropolitan areas, which make up the whole country outside of maybe two cities, are like your average rural racist towns in the US - it's just that they make up the majority of the country's "cities" (which are towns). Most of the Syrian refugees from 5 years back were sent to these shitholes - they largely did it on purpose to make them want to go back home. Migration services are a veritable hotbeds for racists - although this is my experience anywhere I travel. There is a lot of casual racism towards people of color, esp. those who do not speak Finnish. Getting work is very challenging for people who do not speak fluent Finnish and language is used as an entry barrier to most workplaces even those which have English as their corporate language. And if you are roma, you will hardly get a job.

Lastly, for those who want to ride the colonial discourse, Finland was an extremely poor country on European standards until the 1960s, and it established itself as a welfare state because of social democracy not because of colonial legacies. My partner's father with 7 siblings grew up in a house without running water and electricity in the 1950s and my partner is first in the family to have a college degree, my father-in-law is the first male on record in a straight line to have lived to see the age of 40.. Finland has a colonial legacy, but that legacy is rooted in today and it is rooted in capitalist expansion - Finland owns more land than any nation in certain South American countries because of the large scale paper mills there and they are behaving like any neocolonialists...
 
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coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,595
But no one is disputing any of this. Yes...America has plenty of negatives. What does that have to do with Finland? Are you really saying that their aren't millions of PoC in America that can't afford a one way ticket there? As critical as I am being, even I'm not saying you have to be "rich" to be able to immigrate there...come on, black people alone are pumping billions into the economy. Yes there is a huge racial gap in everything in society...and that's not enough to qualify to be a refugee to get into any of these nations. There is nothing in those links that will allow you to immigrate to any of those countries.

I don't even know what you are talking about besides trying to get someone to agree with you on a totally different subject? The only people that think "the American Dream" is ONLY based on reaching some financial goal, are ignorant people, and people who listen to ignorant people.

But yes...there is racial inequality and a huge wealth gap...so why isn't Finland and other countries opening the doors for us if things are so much dramatically better there?

Yeah let's copy and paste policies from other places...it's so simple! Just say it on a message board and it happens, right? But yet when other places are asked to copy and paste things we do well, we get maps from the colonial era...
You don't have plenty of rich (or even financially stable) PoC. Stats are there.


I've never once defended Finland in this thread. I was simply contesting your claim that America welcomes poc immigrants with open arms (see your reply to dabig2)
 
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Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,465
NYC
You don't have plenty of rich PoC. Stats are there.


I've never once defended Finland in this thread. I was simply contesting your claim that America welcomes poc immigrants with open arms (see your reply to dabig2)
Where is this open arms coming from? Stop trying to Trumpify my comments. Merely said it is easier, and they exist in higher numbers here. And, we don't have MILLIONS of PoC that make more than 100K a year, while people from third world countries are dying to immigrant where they are from.

Saying that whites have 10x the wealth of PoC, doesn't mean that their aren't rich PoC. One of those links even shows that the "average" black person makes $600 a week...you know that more than the vast majority of posters bring in? Those are averages and means...and you don't need to be rich to by a plane ticket.
 

Idde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
315
Again...stop defining America SOLELY by the negative. Why can't you or anyone answer:

-Where are the columnist and writers and reporters for any news organization, like, ever?

I just Googled "Muslim columnist [insert newspaper]". De Volkskrant has Ibtihal Jadib, NRC has Zihni Ozdil, Algemeen Dagblad has Hanina Ajarai. Haiba Targh Bakali, an old classmate of mine works as a reporter for two newspapers. And that's just Muslims.

-What art and culture has been accepted by those countries that was created by PoC?

Shockingly little, for as far as I know. But I'm not much of an art and culture person.

-Where are PoC as mayors and senators and such?

Out of the 150 members of congress/senate/I don't know the Dutch equivalent 15 are PoC. President of that body of government is Khadija Arib. As far as I know there are only two PoC mayors.

-What have PoC contributed to food and drink there?

Kebab is everywhere in the Netherlands. A big chain with VERY decent food is Döner Company. They're at pretty much every decent train station. Couscous is pretty well know and a lot of people eat hummus. Big citys have a lot of restaurants from different ethnicities. Indian, Pakistani, African, Chinese, Japanese...But it's not as much ingrained in Dutch society as I'd like.

-What universities there are teaching classes or have majors in regards to PoC issues like those that exist widely here?

No clue.

-Where is birthright citizenship or something anywhere close to that?

If one of your parents is a Dutch citizen you're automatically a citizen as well. Of course, that goes if both are as well.
These questions got me thinking as well. About the Netherlands. And I'll try to answer.

Look, I get the idea that you think Europe is extremely racist to all non white people. And I think that the Netherlands are a lot more racist than they should be. I'm appalled that 20 (out of 150) seats of parliament went to PVV, making it the second biggest. The local racist and bigoted party. That so many people think: Wilders (their leader) talks shit about immigrants all the time, you know what? I don't mind. And that the Dutch are so close minded that we absorb so little about other cultures, and mostly have them integrate, or distance themselves from their culture. That's the reason I moved to Amsterdam, which is a LOT more multicultural. Roadtripping the US from Miami to San Diego really made me appreciate the melting pot (with the far out favorite being New Orleans), and I wish the Netherlands would be more open to that. And it fucking sucks that temp agencies are known to give worse/less jobs to people with non western sounding names.

On the other hand, two days ago I was on the subway, and three Morroccan girls who were about to finish high school were discussing where they were gonna go to college. Because nothing's stopping them. It's just as easy for a PoC to go to college as it is for a 'Dutch' person. Because if your parents don't make enough money, the government will help you out. And I feel this is different for the US and western european countries. I feel the US has way more freedom to excel, but also more freedom to fall. And I soooo hope Sanders will be your president in 2020, because it seems he'd like to bring some of that safety into the US.

And Wilders PVV is the second largest political party now. But they were third in 2012 (with more seats) and fifth in 2010. So the number of idiot racists voting for them seems to be at least stable. And all of the other political parties (except one) flat out refused to form a coalition with PVV, basically because they think he's an asshole.

And we've mostly had immigrants since the seventies, and I hope (though doubt) that anti-muslim sentiments will disappear over time.
 
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apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,077
This is in my opinion a good post, and unlike Akita One's, it's grounded in a contextual understanding of both geographies under discussion. I live in the US and Finland almost half and half during a year - and can weigh in on a couple of issues. First, "social mobility" is not defined by the number of people who can become millionaires and billionaires, it is largely about moving from working class to middle class, or not being stuck as working poor. This is why the US is doing shit in that WEF report Marin was referring to...but she does not fully comprehend what the modern American dream is...

In defense of Finland: It is clear that social mobility is working better in Finland than in the US, no matter the ethic or racial background, this is because the social-economic political and educational systems are constructed around much sounder principles than "free market" rational. The economic system is not at large founded on institutional racism and other forms of dispossession of the marginalized as a way to extract surplus value. The idea that the reason the social welfare state has worked is the lack of brown and black people, is inherently racist and oddly enough one of the most popular talking points in Finland among the far right. Since hypothetical situations are thrown around, if in both countries racism by a magic wand would be removed it is abundantly clear that in the US the oppression and dispossession would just move to another group, simply because it is the fundament upon which that variety of capitalism is built - an extreme inequality between rich and poor. What most Americans are looking for is seemingly what could be called "equal opportunity oppression" - simply because we cannot imagine equality outside some form of obscene economic inequality. In Finland there are very few homeless and their racial makeup is either white or roma (Eastern Europe)

Against Finland: Finland at large is a xenophobic country, also in comparison to the US, the amount of white nationalists is probably a bit lower but casual racists who feel they can freely use racial slurs, make up I would say a good 30-40% of the population outside the metro, and the xenophobia is exasperated usually when there is a downturn in economy. Finland at large is an extremely white country - especially in relation to Sweden, and to a certain extent Denmark. Like in most European countries the metropolitan area is the only real exception, when I'm in Finland I live in an area in the capital where "people of foreign descent" (which is the only way "race" is measured in both Finland and Sweden, and this means in terms of statistics people who either themselves or whose both parents were born abroad. There is no census and no statistics are kept on race) make up 30% of the population, and where 40-60% of the children speak a foreign language at home (meaning anything than Finnish, Swedish or Sámi, the indigenous language) - still this is nothing in comparison to Houston or similar in terms of diversity, as the largest ethnic group in those areas are Russians - who also get their fair share of xenophobia because of Finland's history with Russia, so in these kind of areas you'd get people of Middle Eastern descent at around 15% mostly Iraqi and people of African descent, mostly Somali, at around 10%. In real terms these numbers are a bit higher (add about 20%, the same as the difference between foreign descent and foreign language) because the statistics is 1st generation and we are now at 2nd generation for these ethnic backgrounds. However, this diversity is not particularly visible in daily life, outside of the schools, in part because in Finland at large you have very limited entrepreneurship, setting up shop (for anyone) is very regulated and you need quite massive amount of capital to set up even a restaurant because of all the legalese you have to go through, which you usually need Finnish to manage. The Finnish language is extremely hard to learn and useless outside of Finland, and a huge roadblock for any one moving to Finland who wish to enter the labor market. The Finnish climate is shit, I have worked with quite of a lot of Syrian refugees and I can tell you, coming to Finland is loooow on their list because of the weather, the Finns are generally complete introverts and as a scarcely populated country it can become depressing as fuck. The non-metropolitan areas, which make up the whole country outside of maybe two cities, are like your average rural racist towns in the US - it's just that they make up the majority of the country's "cities" (which are towns). Most of the Syrian refugees from 5 years back were sent to these shitholes - they largely did it on purpose to make them want to go back home. Migration services are a veritable hotbeds for racists - although this is my experience anywhere I travel. There is a lot of casual racism towards people of color, esp. those who do not speak Finnish. Getting work is very challenging for people who do not speak fluent Finnish and language is used as an entry barrier to most workplaces even those which have English as their corporate language. And if you are roma, you will hardly get a job.

Lastly, for those who want to ride the colonial discourse, Finland was an extremely poor country on European standards until the 1960s, and it established itself as a welfare state because of social democracy not because of colonial legacies. My partner's father with 7 siblings grew up in a house without running water and electricity in the 1950s and my partner is first in the family to have a college degree, my father-in-law is the first male on record in a straight line to have lived to see the age of 40.. Finland has a colonial legacy, but that legacy is rooted in today and it is rooted in capitalist expansion - Finland owns more land than any nation in certain South American countries because of the large scale paper mills there and they are behaving like any neocolonialists...
Excellent post. Thank you for your perspective.