Finland's prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US

Oct 27, 2017
444
Finland
I'm glad there seems to be more and more people pushing back against articles and narratives like this.

PoC should not be ignored if you want to pat yourself on the back for what a great society you've built. A society without us. We're still here, we've always been here.
It's worth noting that Sanna Marin herself would probably agree with the people here pushing back against the narrative. Reading the actual source article that the article in the OP links to, she's probably quite well aware of the differences in the US, to which she kind of implies here (though yes, the implication might be unclear):
Marin said she recognizes that “every country’s situation is different, every country’s political atmosphere is different,” but that Finland’s system could set an example for the United States nonetheless.
She herself also would like to welcome people there:
That includes the thorny question of immigration, which Marin welcomes. “We have an aging population, and we need people to come to Finland, to work there and to raise their children and take part in making our society better,” she said.
Of course, you can still debate whether or not she's actually that open to immigrants if they're not well educated. However, I do think she understands the reality that in future there will be a lot more people coming in from the areas getting worse due to the climate change and other factors.

Now, I understand if you're not satisfied with that. I understand your anger, at least in the level that a white dude is capable of understanding it in the first place. Articles taking her comments could certainly make a lot of interesting comparisons. Then again, I'm quite sure that a lot of leftists in the US clamoring for the Nordic model do know that it's not so easy to achieve.
 

coconut milk

Member
Jan 17, 2018
3,582
Where is this open arms coming from? Stop trying to Trumpify my comments. Merely said it is easier, and they exist in higher numbers here. And, we don't have MILLIONS of PoC that make more than 100K a year, while people from third world countries are dying to immigrant where they are from.

Saying that whites have 10x the wealth of PoC, doesn't mean that their aren't rich PoC. One of those links even shows that the "average" black person makes $600 a week...you know that more than the vast majority of posters bring in? Those are averages and means...and you don't need to be rich to by a plane ticket.
This is your response to dabig2 claiming america doesn't welcome poc immigrants with open arms:

Is this a joke??? Like, have you ever been to any city in America? Why are you talking about things that happened 200 years ago, and not...you know...people getting off planes and staying here every day.
Wealth gap kinda shows that PoC aren't welcome in any real tangible terms..... Representation is important and for sure is part of the American dream... But economic justice can speed that process up significantly.

I'm not interested in defending Finland and their immigration requirements. My first post itt was fairly critical too!
 
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oddjobs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
496
This whole narrative is kind of weird, considering that it’s US-media spinning what Marin actually said into something a lot more confrontative and hyperbolic than it actually was IMO.

Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin is a big believer in the “American Dream,” and she thinks it’s a lot easier to achieve now in her country than in the United States.


“I feel that the American Dream can be achieved best in the Nordic countries, where every child, no matter their background or the background of their families, can become anything,” Marin told The Washington Post in an interview on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Switzerland last month.


“We feel that the Nordic model is a success story,” said Marin, who became prime minister in December at age 34, making her briefly the youngest world leader (she lost that title in January when 33-year-old Sebastian Kurz returned to power as Austrian chancellor).
This is what the Post originally reported, and I have an issue with it, in that they say that Marin "thinks it's a lot easier to achieve..." than in the US, when in fact she did no such thing. Marin said that she feels that the nordics are the best place to do that, without going into how feasible (or not) it is in the US or anywhere else.

She represents her country, what the fuck is she supposed to do? "We think that we are alright in this but probably there's some better places as well..."?

The title of the second article (which references the first) is "Finland's millennial prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US" is IMO again misleading in the sense that it tries to make it seem like Marin explicitly compares Finland to the US, which she of course did not do.

Now, all that does not make Finland dream come true for anyone or anything, but I would like to point out that it is often the sensationalist US media stirring shit up to make headlines instead of the nordic countries preaching their virtues as the be-all-end-all.

That said, a few thoughts RE: Finland, racism, opportunities etc. coming from a white finn born here.

- Finland does have a far-right problem like many other EU (and other European) countries. However, that is not the only thing behind the "True Finns Party"-phenomenom - I would argue that a lot of it is also similar to what Trump stirred up in the midwest - people feeling displaced / unimportant bunching up with candidates who at least claim to be doing stuff for them, without necessary being racist (also not saying that it's not a part of the equation.) Also, in many cases the highest approval ratings for the party coincide with some of the areas with lower percentages of immigrants (in relation to the population) so go figure. I wonder if it is overt racism or just ignorance stemming from a lack of exposure? A whole lot of people are racist as all fuck, of course - no arguments there.

- Immigration from countries with ethnicities other than "white" began en masse just in the late 70's / early 80's, which in part explains the lack of diversity. Unsurprisingly, this also began in the bigger cities, so many areas of Finland are in that sense also largely "untouched" by immigration

- Employment: this can be divided into two eras: 1.) pre-refugee crisis and 2.) post-refugee crisis

Employment numbers from

1.) -era show that people of nationalities other than finnish were roughly 15% less likely to be employed (figures from 2015) - however the same group of people in general had a birthrate of 0.5 (or 25%) higher than finnish nationals. Considering the high amount of paid parental leave offered, that explains some of the gap - though not all.

2.) now this is of course all fucked up. In integrating the people who fled Syria, Iraq et al the society has failed, leaving people to their own devices and thus the unemployment rate skyrocketed among immigrants at this time. There still are no great solutions to be seen, and much of what little employment these groups of people got was from founding their own barbershops and restaurants. Anecdotally I do know a few developers/designers who came into Finland during this time, but that of course is not representative of the general situation.

So what about the stuff Marin DID say? I do think that if you take the quote verbatim, then yes, the country offers a good starting point for people who are born here, regardless of their ethnic or other background. Is it the best? I don't know. Neither does she. Or you, for that matter. A lot of it is subjective and and depends on a multitude of things, but in general I do think that Finland does an okay job at it.

I do get the criticism about the lack of ethnic diversity having an effect on how all of this plays out, but them's the breaks, I guess? Anything else than what currently can be observed is dealing with hypotheticals and IMO are perhaps not sufficient to form an accurate vision of what Finland would be in different circumstances.

Anyway, my key takeaway is that what is important is the ideal of what these nordic countries offer for their citizens, not whether or not a given country is the nth best place to live or whatever. In general there should be a healthy middle ground between balls-out capitalism and balls-out socialism, and I do think we are kind of fitting somewhere in the sweet spot.
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,114
Boston/Helsinki
Where is this open arms coming from? Stop trying to Trumpify my comments. Merely said it is easier, and they exist in higher numbers here. And, we don't have MILLIONS of PoC that make more than 100K a year, while people from third world countries are dying to immigrant where they are from.

Saying that whites have 10x the wealth of PoC, doesn't mean that their aren't rich PoC. One of those links even shows that the "average" black person makes $600 a week...you know that more than the vast majority of posters bring in? Those are averages and means...and you don't need to be rich to by a plane ticket.
Social mobility is useless when applied to metrics such as "rich" - what matters is the possibility to move out from the bottom, from being poor/working poor. Here is what the situation has looked like in the US for the past 20 years:



 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,461
NYC
This is your response to dabig2 claiming america doesn't welcome poc immigrants with open arms:



Wealth gap kinda shows that PoC aren't welcome in any real tangible terms..... Representation is important and for sure is part of the American dream... But economic justice can speed that process up significantly.

I'm not interested in defending Finland and their immigration requirements. My first post itt was fairly critical too!
Don't see where I said things about anyone being "welcomed with open arms"...that's emotional semantics. By your definition, PoC aren't welcomed anywhere in the world...which I don't disagree with. And everything else you said I agree with, so that's good.
 

NoName999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,350
My problem with these threads is that you don't even have to look for Nordics to show that you can actually have competent welfare systems and diversity. Just look at your northern neighbor. Canada has way higher social and economic mobility than US.
You mean the country that treats its indigenous people as straight up garbage and black Canadians are still below the poverty line.

So even when a country have the good shit, it's still denied to the marginalized because of racism.
 

Akita One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,461
NYC
Social mobility is useless when applied to metrics such as "rich" - what matters is the possibility to move out from the bottom, from being poor/working poor. Here is what the situation has looked like in the US for the past 20 years:



Yes, I don't know where this came from that I said that social mobility is great in the US. So many people are literally going so far away from the point I was making, because I dared to say something that could be construed as positive.

And again, if the graph you show is true (and I don't doubt it is), why aren't these countries granting refugee status to Americans? We are talking in circles...because I never said that the US don't have any of the problems you or other mentioned...doesn't mean Finland or these other countries can't be criticized for their immigration practices. That's all. But hey...next time a thread like this pops up I'll be sure to know my role that I'm not allowed to say anything negative about Europe until America reaches perfection, because otherwise people will run with Trumpian assumptions that I'm saying the US doesn't have problems or that things are bad for many people.

Stop acting like people are SO BROKE in the US, more poor than people from third world countries WALKING to the nearest country with some opportunity...that you can afford a plane ticket to travel to one of these other nations if "The Finland Dream" is so easily available to anyone the goes there.

And again...I have said that the concept of the American Dream is an ignorant concept believe by ignorant people...don't know where are these racial inequality stats are coming from, like I'm saying the American Dream is perfect...that's just nonsense people want to see because I dared to say something remotely positive about the US.

This whole narrative is kind of weird, considering that it’s US-media spinning what Marin actually said into something a lot more confrontative and hyperbolic than it actually was IMO.



This is what the Post originally reported, and I have an issue with it, in that they say that Marin "thinks it's a lot easier to achieve..." than in the US, when in fact she did no such thing. Marin said that she feels that the nordics are the best place to do that, without going into how feasible (or not) it is in the US or anywhere else.

She represents her country, what the fuck is she supposed to do? "We think that we are alright in this but probably there's some better places as well..."?

The title of the second article (which references the first) is "Finland's millennial prime minister said Nordic countries do a better job of embodying the American dream than the US" is IMO again misleading in the sense that it tries to make it seem like Marin explicitly compares Finland to the US, which she of course did not do.

Now, all that does not make Finland dream come true for anyone or anything, but I would like to point out that it is often the sensationalist US media stirring shit up to make headlines instead of the nordic countries preaching their virtues as the be-all-end-all.

That said, a few thoughts RE: Finland, racism, opportunities etc. coming from a white finn born here.

- Finland does have a far-right problem like many other EU (and other European) countries. However, that is not the only thing behind the "True Finns Party"-phenomenom - I would argue that a lot of it is also similar to what Trump stirred up in the midwest - people feeling displaced / unimportant bunching up with candidates who at least claim to be doing stuff for them, without necessary being racist (also not saying that it's not a part of the equation.) Also, in many cases the highest approval ratings for the party coincide with some of the areas with lower percentages of immigrants (in relation to the population) so go figure. I wonder if it is overt racism or just ignorance stemming from a lack of exposure? A whole lot of people are racist as all fuck, of course - no arguments there.

- Immigration from countries with ethnicities other than "white" began en masse just in the late 70's / early 80's, which in part explains the lack of diversity. Unsurprisingly, this also began in the bigger cities, so many areas of Finland are in that sense also largely "untouched" by immigration

- Employment: this can be divided into two eras: 1.) pre-refugee crisis and 2.) post-refugee crisis

Employment numbers from

1.) -era show that people of nationalities other than finnish were roughly 15% less likely to be employed (figures from 2015) - however the same group of people in general had a birthrate of 0.5 (or 25%) higher than finnish nationals. Considering the high amount of paid parental leave offered, that explains some of the gap - though not all.

2.) now this is of course all fucked up. In integrating the people who fled Syria, Iraq et al the society has failed, leaving people to their own devices and thus the unemployment rate skyrocketed among immigrants at this time. There still are no great solutions to be seen, and much of what little employment these groups of people got was from founding their own barbershops and restaurants. Anecdotally I do know a few developers/designers who came into Finland during this time, but that of course is not representative of the general situation.

So what about the stuff Marin DID say? I do think that if you take the quote verbatim, then yes, the country offers a good starting point for people who are born here, regardless of their ethnic or other background. Is it the best? I don't know. Neither does she. Or you, for that matter. A lot of it is subjective and and depends on a multitude of things, but in general I do think that Finland does an okay job at it.

I do get the criticism about the lack of ethnic diversity having an effect on how all of this plays out, but them's the breaks, I guess? Anything else than what currently can be observed is dealing with hypotheticals and IMO are perhaps not sufficient to form an accurate vision of what Finland would be in different circumstances.

Anyway, my key takeaway is that what is important is the ideal of what these nordic countries offer for their citizens, not whether or not a given country is the nth best place to live or whatever. In general there should be a healthy middle ground between balls-out capitalism and balls-out socialism, and I do think we are kind of fitting somewhere in the sweet spot.
This is amazing...very well said and thought out. Thank you for this.
 
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jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
have you read any articles or heard any commentary from PoC who spoke about what they felt were their chances of success, as opposed to white Finnish people?
Well yes of course, there are plenty of poc for example in state broadcast company but to my experience they are just finnish people who just dont have white skin color.

Now these articles are gibberish but you did ask for some poc representation in news etc and he for example is and has been for quite some time (is hosting in one of the most popular friday evening shows) https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11159921 and one who came as a refugee and writes columns and has been on tv many times https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11067040. I think he has pretty "right wing" views when it comes to social security. Other that comes to my mind is https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryan_Abdulkarim who is also pretty often on television.

I could say they have very different point of views about racism and chances of success in finland. Of course because both are different people and individuals.
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,114
Boston/Helsinki
Yes, I don't know where this came from that I said that social mobility is great in the US. So many people are literally going so far away from the point I was making, because I dared to say something that could be construed as positive.

And again, if the graph you show is true (and I don't doubt it is), why aren't these countries granting refugee status to Americans?
I don't know if your question is in good faith, but there is international law that defines the conditions that need to be met to be assigned refugee status, the US and Finland haveratified the convention:

1) well-founded risk of persecution 2) incapacity to enjoy the protection of one's own state from the feared persecution. Under 1) you need to show that the persecution is targeted and the risk of harm is not considered proof.​

The answer is they could not because of the deficiencies in international laws. Also I doubt the US would ratify an agreement that enables their citizens to be designated refugee status because of the markets working as they are supposed to work...
 

Anomander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
463
Brown guy who used to live in Finland here. Finland gave me a lot of stuff that I'm grateful of, free University education for one (I moved there specifically to study my master's degree), and I didn't have much problem to rent a house and find a job quickly after my education either. But not every PoC is lucky as I was. The society is extremely homogeneous even in Helsinki. In the 5 years that I lived there I only had 1 Finnish friend, granted I couldn't speak the language and relied only on English to get by.
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,114
Boston/Helsinki
Brown guy who used to live in Finland here. Finland gave me a lot of stuff that I'm grateful of, free University education for one (I moved there specifically to study my master's degree), and I didn't have much problem to rent a house and find a job quickly after my education either. But not every PoC is lucky as I was. The society is extremely homogeneous even in Helsinki. In the 5 years that I lived there I only had 1 Finnish friend, granted I couldn't speak the language and relied only on English to get by.
What I'm about to say is not a joke, I have a friend who has studied this - on average a Finnish male has three friends, so you weren't that far off. Finns don't like friends. I have one Finnish friend, by partner, lol.
 

jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
User Banned (permanent): rationalizing the use of racial slurs
Against Finland: Finland at large is a xenophobic country
Sorry but this is something I have to disagree and have met countless foreigners who make this assumption based on misunderstandings. For example when people don't sit next to you and rather stand it's not because of racism, people just dont like sitting next to strangers or talk to strangers. I work in a pretty multicultural environment and there has been so many cases when clearly it's just a misunderstanding.

Not saying there aren't racism or xenophobia but it really does rub me in a wrong way when people say things like this. It's true older people use "N-word" however there is no historic baggage here in it so to speak, it used to be kind of saying water is wet. I remember very vividly my grandparents language and there was no ill intent behind it. Just for comparison, they were VERY racist towards russians (war etc.), however when it came to different colored people it was mostly just neutral interest and nothing mischievous. I understand it might be hard to understand but for example I personally saw first black person when I was adult and didn't really have any opinions about it. It's just not something people thought about. Now this was like in the 90s and early 00s.

Now sadly things are different and there are lots of prejudice against muslims for example.

Brown guy who used to live in Finland here. Finland gave me a lot of stuff that I'm grateful of, free University education for one (I moved there specifically to study my master's degree), and I didn't have much problem to rent a house and find a job quickly after my education either. But not every PoC is lucky as I was. The society is extremely homogeneous even in Helsinki. In the 5 years that I lived there I only had 1 Finnish friend, granted I couldn't speak the language and relied only on English to get by.
Well to be fair this is kind of it. People don't really make friends easily here and loneliness is a very big problem.

What is your opinion on racism, how much of it did you experience or how did it represent itself?
 

kpaadet

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,093
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns from minority members.
These threads always go the same way, some Nordic country tops a happiness/least corruption/social mobility etc list and all the Americans instantly goes "it's easy when you're so homogeneous" (which oddly seems like ammo for the right wing to me).
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,114
Boston/Helsinki
Sorry but this is something I have to disagree and have met countless foreigners who make this assumption based on misunderstandings. For example when people don't sit next to you and rather stand it's not because of racism, people just dont like sitting next to strangers or talk to strangers. I work in a pretty multicultural environment and there has been so many cases when clearly it's just a misunderstanding.
xenophobia literally means "fear of strangers"... but, besides that, it's not a misunderstanding, it's a lived experience, as is all racism and is not dictated by the majority group but by those experiencing it. There's lots of casual rasism in Finland that goes beyond introversion.
 

jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
xenophobia literally means "fear of strangers"... but, besides that, it's not a misunderstanding, it's a lived experience, as is all racism and is not dictated by the majority group but by those experiencing it. There's lots of casual rasism in Finland that goes beyond introversion.
Well not disagreeing with that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,420
Sweden
These threads always go the same way, some Nordic country tops a happiness/least corruption/social mobility etc list and all the Americans instantly goes "it's easy when you're so homogeneous" (which oddly seems like ammo for the right wing to me).
it's patriotism poison

americans have been so poisoned by patriotism brainwashing (such as being forced to salute the flag in school every day, wtf kind of creepy cult shit is that) that they reflexively lash out against any criticism of their country. they'd rather buy into right wing talking points than accept objective metrics that show how usa in many ways is doing poorly compared to countries with similar or lower levels of wealth

like USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, yet still people die because their gofundme to buy insulin failed. it should be enough to make people rage and rage, but instead people go "usa! usa! i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

the state of the usa is very sad but, as with addicts, the situation is not likely to improve until they can start admitting they have a problem

luckily, maybe things are finally starting to change for the better. bernie has been doing quite well so far in the democratic primaries. his policies are what the country needs to improve and to heal
 

Idde

Member
Oct 27, 2017
311
it's patriotism poison

americans have been so poisoned by patriotism brainwashing (such as being forced to salute the flag in school every day, wtf kind of creepy cult shit is that) that they reflexively lash out against any criticism of their country. they'd rather buy into right wing talking points than accept objective metrics that show how usa in many ways is doing poorly compared to countries with similar or lower levels of wealth

like USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, yet still people die because their gofundme to buy insulin failed. it should be enough to make people rage and rage, but instead people go "usa! usa! i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

the state of the usa is very sad but, as with addicts, the situation is not likely to improve until they can start admitting they have a problem

luckily, maybe things are finally starting to change for the better. bernie has been doing quite well so far in the democratic primaries. his policies are what the country needs to improve and to heal
Eeeh, I wouldn't say that's beholden to the US. I can be pretty critical of my country of my own, but when people on Era criticize western Europe I tend to get pretty defensive. When they're basically saying the same things as me.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,062
These threads always go the same way, some Nordic country tops a happiness/least corruption/social mobility etc list and all the Americans instantly goes "it's easy when you're so homogeneous" (which oddly seems like ammo for the right wing to me).
You're right about the right wing angle. Some of the talking points that are repeated throughout this thread baffles me, as I'm normally used to hearing them from nordic far right activists and nazis.

If we take that argument to it's logical end point, ethnic diversity is something to be avoided, which is an opinion that I don't think anyone in this thread actually subscribes to.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
These threads always go the same way, some Nordic country tops a happiness/least corruption/social mobility etc list and all the Americans instantly goes "it's easy when you're so homogeneous" (which oddly seems like ammo for the right wing to me).
Except that’s not what happened. At all.
Some European politician from an overwhelmingly white nation boasted that they’re happy and content and doing better than America.

Then a black guy from New York such as myself proceeded to call out the general European fuckery and hypocrisy in bragging about a nation’s progress compared to the States when you keep black and brown people out of it.

Cause I know if those nations had the same numbers of black and brown minorities they’d be just as selfish and “free market solutions!” as the US.

“All the Americans”, that’s my point. Many Europeans, doubly so from those homogeneous nations tend to not even see us, lol. Only when there’s a news story about us getting fucked up in America.

That’s what I’ve said. Feel free to try and dismiss my view by claiming it’s right wing talking points but conservatism has nothing to do with it. Just an honest observation.


You're right about the right wing angle. Some of the talking points that are repeated throughout this thread baffles me, as I'm normally used to hearing them from nordic far right activists and nazis.

If we take that argument to it's logical end point, ethnic diversity is something to be avoided, which is an opinion that I don't think anyone in this thread actually subscribes to.
Do you think bigots want their nation’s demographics to be like the US or Norway?
 

Anomander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
463
What is your opinion on racism, how much of it did you experience or how did it represent itself?
I've had plenty of passive aggressive racism and general ignorant stuff white people say, thrown at me. I overheard an old lady in the bus calling brown people kebabi. I also had an asshole colleague who always "joked" about where I'm coming from. If you ever read this Valtteri, fuck you.
And as I said not many are lucky as me, here's a research about job discrimination in Finland.
 

kpaadet

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,093
Except that’s not what happened. At all.
Some European politician from an overwhelmingly white nation boasted that they’re happy and content and doing better than America.

Then a black guy from New York such as myself proceeded to call out the general European fuckery and hypocrisy in bragging about a nation’s progress compared to the States when you keep black and brown people out of it.

Cause I know if those nations had the same numbers of black and brown minorities they’d be just as selfish and “free market solutions!” as the US.

“All the Americans”, that’s my point. Many Europeans, doubly so from those homogeneous nations tend to not even see us, lol. Only when there’s a news story about us getting fucked up in America.

That’s what I’ve said. Feel free to try and dismiss my view by claiming it’s right wing talking points but conservatism has nothing to do with it. Just an honest observation.
The same thing happens when some list is posted, whether or not you think she is bragging is irrelevant. Do you take issue with being called "an American" now? While at the same time "calling out the general European fuckery" what kind of hypocrisy is that?

Here is my honest observation when even a place like ERA which is considered progressive is using the same arguments as the far right is for why we should keep minorities out, is it any wonder they are growing?
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,287
Wait what? I’m Canadian and my family immigrated when I was 18. I know quite a few super successful refugees from Uganda that came around the same time as my family. We all got citizenship soon as we were eligible. I love Canada. I lived in the US too for 6 years but Canada feels like a lot less barriers. There is still racism but not like the US where I’ve had it in my face a few times.
I like Canada, I lived there for 3 years but they're highly selective in regards to immigration.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
The same thing happens when some list is posted, whether or not you think she is bragging is irrelevant. Do you take issue with being called "an American" now? While at the same time "calling out the general European fuckery" what kind of hypocrisy is that?

Here is my honest observation when even a place like ERA which is considered pretty left leading is using the same arguments as the far right is for why we should keep minorities out, is it any wonder they are growing?
If you think I’m arguing to keep minorities out you’re intentionally misrepresenting my position and my posts and not discussing this in good faith. Period.

Cut that dumb shit out. It’s a weak argumentative tactic to completely ignore my central point: Don’t brag about how awesome Nordic nations are compared to America when they won’t even let my people in.

Cmon. Stop playing dumb with me.

I’m saying it’s easy for Nordic nations to not be racist when black and brown people are kept out. And it’s easy for those Nordic nations to share prosperity without said racism present.

Stop trying to twist that into “oh you’re clearly saying all white societies are better and that’s the solution, huh?” Cmon, you’re not going to pull that silly shit on me.

For the record my suggestion is for Europeans to embrace sharing prosperity with people that don’t look like them. Particularly black and brown people. America hasn’t because of racism. Nordic nations therefore win by default: They have no substantial black and brown populations. That’s nothing to celebrate or pay yourself on the back about....
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,062
Except that’s not what happened. At all.
Some European politician from an overwhelmingly white nation boasted that they’re happy and content and doing better than America.

Then a black guy from New York such as myself proceeded to call out the general European fuckery and hypocrisy in bragging about a nation’s progress compared to the States when you keep black and brown people out of it.

Cause I know if those nations had the same numbers of black and brown minorities they’d be just as selfish and “free market solutions!” as the US.

“All the Americans”, that’s my point. Many Europeans, doubly so from those homogeneous nations tend to not even see us, lol. Only when there’s a news story about us getting fucked up in America.

That’s what I’ve said. Feel free to try and dismiss my view by claiming it’s right wing talking points but conservatism has nothing to do with it. Just an honest observation.




Do you think bigots want their nation’s demographics to be like the US or Norway?
I can only speak from a swedish point of view, but when I ride the subway to work every morning I travel with a lot of people of an obviously varied ethnic background. Sweden is a fairly multicultural society, and not as homogenous as you make it out to be.

There is racism here, and the rightwingers are gaining ground here as in most countries at the moment, but there is an equally loud call for basic humanism too.
 

kpaadet

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,093
If you think I’m arguing to keep minorities out you’re intentionally misrepresenting my position and my posts and not discussing this in good faith. Period.

Cut that dumb shit out. It’s a weak argumentative tactic to completely ignore my central point: Don’t brag about how awesome Nordic nations are compared to America when they won’t even let my people in.

Cmon. Stop playing dumb with me.

I’m saying it’s easy for Nordic nations to not be racist when black and brown people are kept out. And it’s easy for those Nordic nations to share prosperity without said racism present.

Stop trying to twist that into “oh you’re clearly saying all white societies are better and that’s the solution, huh?” Cmon, you’re not going to pull that silly shit on me.

For the record my suggestion is for Europeans to embrace sharing prosperity with people that don’t look like them. Particularly black and brown people. America hasn’t because of racism. Nordic nations therefore win by default: They have no substantial black and brown populations. That’s nothing to celebrate or pay yourself on the back about....
It all sounds so hollow coming from an American, I'm sure Trump has never mentioned any positive thing about the US he is proud of, and the US allows everyone in right? How many countries is it that are not allowed to travel to the US? Should I try to derail any thread about the US economy with how big of an advantage they have because they exploit the working class with pathetic minimum wage? Every country deals with racism but it's always used to downplay any achievement of the Nordic countries like it's the only place in the world where racism exist.
 

Phil me in

Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,014
it's patriotism poison

americans have been so poisoned by patriotism brainwashing (such as being forced to salute the flag in school every day, wtf kind of creepy cult shit is that) that they reflexively lash out against any criticism of their country. they'd rather buy into right wing talking points than accept objective metrics that show how usa in many ways is doing poorly compared to countries with similar or lower levels of wealth

like USA is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, yet still people die because their gofundme to buy insulin failed. it should be enough to make people rage and rage, but instead people go "usa! usa! i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

the state of the usa is very sad but, as with addicts, the situation is not likely to improve until they can start admitting they have a problem

luckily, maybe things are finally starting to change for the better. bernie has been doing quite well so far in the democratic primaries. his policies are what the country needs to improve and to heal
this sums up some of the posters in this thread who are deflecting the statements in op about Finland as ‘yeah but Finland needs diversity’

the so called American dream is massively unachievable for white Americans as well as POC in America. The dream itself is a lie sold to the 90% that will never get it.

Does a country that is 99% hegemonic need diversity because this forum says so?

The USA While had a majority white always had POC because of the Slave trade, Chinese labour, native population and Large immigration.

USA has never really been a white 95-99% nation to compare to places like Finland.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,420
Sweden
it's wild to me that people living in a country where refugees are put in concentration camps are saying that scandinavian countries are the ones trying to shut immigrants out
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
It all sounds so hollow coming from an American, I'm sure Trump has never mentioned any positive thing about the US he is proud of, and the US allows everyone in right? How many countries is it that are not allowed to travel to the US? Should I try to derail any thread about the US economy with how big of an advantage they have because they exploit the working class with pathetic minimum wage? Every country deals with racism but it's always used to downplay any achievement of the Nordic countries like it's the only place in the world where racism exist.
Fuck Trump. Difference is this forum tolerates criticism about America. Say shit about Europe and suddenly criticism isn’t valid? Most threads about the US are derailed with discussions about the problems in the US. Gimme a break, lol.

America being a shitshow will never magically remove any criticism about any other nation. Don’t ”but you lynch negroes” my perspective.

number of immigrants per capita is more than 3 times higher in sweden than in usa and number of refugees admitted per capita is orders of magnitude higher
How many black and brown immigrants? Specifically.
 
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Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
still, as i've said multiple times this thread, immigration per capita is much higher in sweden than in usa and refugee admissions per capita are orders of magnitude higher

a lot of the people posting in this thread don't know shit
A lot of people in this thread intentionally miss the point and can’t take criticism for shit.

As an American (like there’s no difference being a black/brown person in America or nearly anywhere else) I can readily concede America’s fuck ups. Easily. Anything you throw at me will result in “Yup”.

But Nordic and Europe piss and moan you say a single thing. It’s truly astounding. All white nation bragging about how awesome they are. Lmao. Fuck outta here. It’s easy to provide a high standard of living when you don’t have black and brown people to be bigoted against or be worried that they’re “taking our country” cause of said racism and bigotry.

All white nation bragging about how awesome they are. Lmao. Fuck outta here.
 

Dever

Banned
Dec 25, 2019
316
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing white privilege and institutional racism.
A lot of people in this thread intentionally miss the point and can’t take criticism for shit.

As an American (like there’s no difference being a black/brown person in America or nearly anywhere else) I can readily concede America’s fuck ups. Easily. Anything you throw at me will result in “Yup”.

But Nordic and Europe piss and moan you say a single thing. It’s truly astounding.

All white nation bragging about how awesome they are. Lmao. Fuck outta here.
Do Finns even belong under the American social construct of "whiteness" though? We suffered under the rule of the Swedes and Russians, and at the time Swedes even thought we were an inferior race. It's a small and insignificant country of like 5 million people who's only ever been fucked over by more powerful countries, and the way people talk about is like we were some colonial superpower just because we happen to have light skin lmao.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,420
Sweden

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
Do Finns even belong under the American social construct of "whiteness" though?
Whiteness is a European construct. Who you think them fuckers learned it from? Lol. America just distilled it, and shipped it back out repackaged and marketed for modern consumption.

We suffered under the rule of the Swedes and Russians, and at the time Swedes even thought we were an inferior race. It's a small and insignificant country of like 5 million people who's only ever been fucked over by more powerful countries, and the way people talk about is like we were some colonial superpower just because we happen to have light skin lmao.
Now we’re getting somewhere! It’s almost like race has been a construct used conveniently by the establishment to take what they want...

are you just going to ignore the list of top 10 countries of birth of immigrants in 2018 that i posted? lmao

just admit you were wrong dude. this is pathetic
I didn’t ask for a list of top ten nations, did I. Stop sidestepping my question cause you don’t like the answer and reframing it. It’s super simple.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,420
Sweden
I didn’t ask for a list of top ten nations, did I. Stop sidestepping my question cause you don’t like the answer and reframing it. It’s super simple.
the direct question can't be answered because race among immigrants is not tracked.

however, that list comes close enough to an answer. you're just moving goalposts.

i dug up those statistics because i thought you were arguing in good faith. i see it was not worth the effort.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,062
I didn’t ask for a list of top ten nations, did I. Stop sidestepping my question cause you don’t like the answer and reframing it. It’s super simple.
It's not super simple, though. As he wrote in a post above, there are no statistics about race in Sweden. You can infer ethnicity from the top nations from which people emigrate, if you wish, but that's as far as it goes.

Edit: Oh well, a moment too late, it seems.
 

CoolOff

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,059
I feel like talking about "Scandinavia" here becomes a bit sweeping, because the ethnic make-up of Denmark, Norway, and in particular Sweden has diverged pretty significantly from Finlands in the last few decades. Describing any of them as an "all white nation" is very much stuck in the 20th century though.
 

Dever

Banned
Dec 25, 2019
316
Whiteness is a European construct. Who you think them fuckers learned it from? Lol. America just distilled it, and shipped it back out repackaged and marketed for modern consumption.
What counts as "European" though? If some British and French guys come up with something in the 18th century, that means some Finnish farmers from bumfuck nowhere become tarred with the same brush? Finland was an insignificant footnote for most of European history.

Also, hmm, dunno if I even agree with that. Instead of just "white", Europeans tend to think of themselves as French, German, Swedish, Polish etc... It was when these people all immigrated to America, became mixed and forgot their roots, it became distilled to just "white" in contrast to the black minorities to my understanding.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
New York
What counts as "European" though? If some British and French guys come up with something in the 18th century, that means some Finnish farmers from bumfuck nowhere become tarred with the same brush? Finland was an insignificant footnote for most of European history.

Also, hmm, dunno if I even agree with that. Instead of just "white", Europeans tend to think of themselves as French, German, Swedish, Polish etc... It was when these people all immigrated to America, became mixed and forgot their roots, it became distilled to just "white" in contrast to the black minorities to my understanding.
Like I said in this thread... whiteness forms like Voltron...
 

CoolOff

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,059
As for how many black and brown people Sweden actually have, at the end of 2016 850k people in the country were born in the "brown" countries of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Thailand, Eritrea, India, China, Lebanon, Chile, Ethiopia, Pakistan, Philippines. There's also an additional 600k individuals born in Sweden with two parents born abroad, and even if many of those are Finns, Norwegians, and former Yugoslavians, I'd hazard a guess at the total number of PoC in the country in the range of 1-1.2 million in a total population of 10 million. Higher if we count those with only one PoC parent.

So no, it's not in the whatever 20-40% the US is and yes the social welfare policies were put in place when the country was far more ethnically homogenous, but it's not an "all white country".