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Fire breaks out at Notre Dame cathedral, developing situation [Update: major structural collapse - Art and other Assets Saved] (See Staff Post)

Feb 4, 2019
644
This is probably bait, but sure I'll bite.

I am a religious person. If this is a sign of something, then sure. We'll know what it is in time. Could be that we're not taking care of the planet as we should, or it could be that we shouldn't take things for granted. I don't know. But that isn't important right now.

A beautiful piece of history is being destroyed. So right now we mourn with those that mourn and comfort those who need comfort. As tragic as this is, the best thing is that no one was killed and that pieces were saved.
Wasn't bait. Just that people use religion as a weapon, and it wouldn't surprise me to wield this in some way.
 
Nov 17, 2017
13,958
Utah
Wasn't bait. Just that people use religion as a weapon, and it wouldn't surprise me to wield this in some way.
I just can't be too sure anymore so I posted that just to be safe! I'm super sorry Books! I did mean what I said though. I'm crushed that the building is in flames but I'm ecstatic that everyone is okay. At the end that helps the sense of loss that everyone is feeling.
 
Mar 18, 2019
212
Just catching up with this news. I couldn't believe it at first because we're talking about one of the most treasured buildings in history, it's like if the Mona Lisa got burnt to ashes! But now I'm truly relieved to see that the interior and main structure of the Notre Dame is fine for the most part. Visiting there is still on my bucket list. Though it'll probably take a while till it gets restored AND opened to public again...
You'll possibly be dead before that happens. A restoration / reconstruction of this level on a cathedral (let alone one this old) will take decades to complete.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,017
It's a medieval building made of wood and stone... If the fire catches in the wooden roof (like it looks like it happened) it can go quickly.
Centuries old wood that's dry would've caught fire a lot quicker
Oooh that makes much more sense. For some reason I was under the impression that it was pretty much all stonework and that the rooms would be isolated enough to contain the fires/damage. Guess that shows how much I know medieval architecture.
 
Feb 4, 2019
644
I just can't be too sure anymore so I posted that just to be safe! I'm super sorry Books! I did mean what I said though. I'm crushed that the building is in flames but I'm ecstatic that everyone is okay. At the end that helps the sense of loss that everyone is feeling.
For sure that's the important part. And ultimately, it can and will be rebuilt eventually. If it can survive the French Revolution, it can survive anythingm
 
Apr 1, 2019
702
man twitter is a mess right now, both the far right and even those on the left are trying to exploit this tragedy for their own self image.

many racists scumbags are going on about "death of western civilization etc" and then those on the left are saying that
"they don't care, its a symbol of colonialism, why should we care if you don't care about indigenous or PoC artifacts being destroyed" like some form of Karma etc.

not linking this to the thread, because I don't want to give them views like last time, but its just shameful that people make this a political act right away
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,998
man twitter is a mess right now, both the far right and even those on the left are trying to exploit this tragedy for their own self image.

many racists scumbags are going on about "death of western civilization etc" and then those on the left are saying that
"they don't care, its a symbol of colonialism, why should we care if you don't care about indigenous or PoC artifacts being destroyed" like some form of Karma etc.

not linking this to the thread, because I don't want to give them views like last time, but its just shameful that people make this a political act right away
The tin foil hat in me says that stuff is a result of a malevolent social engineering effort intended to drive a wedge between people on either side of the political spectrum.

You'll possibly be dead before that happens. A restoration / reconstruction of this level on a cathedral (let alone one this old) will take decades to complete.
It will take some time but don't be dramatic, most people on this forum will still be alive when the restoration is complete.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,352
France
It's a medieval building made of wood and stone... If the fire catches in the wooden roof (like it looks like it happened) it can go quickly.
Centuries old wood that's dry would've caught fire a lot quicker
Oooh that makes much more sense. For some reason I was under the impression that it was pretty much all stonework and that the rooms would be isolated enough to contain the fires/damage. Guess that shows how much I know medieval architecture.
The wood was from trees that were almost 1000 years old and it was still in great condition. From what I've heard, that variety of trees doesn't even exist anymore (I'll have to fact check that, I may have misunderstoond), at least not in the quantities they used back in the 13th century. Obviously they won't rebuild using wood, not after a fire like that... but the structure was made from 1300 of these millenials old oaks, and it's only ashes now. Even if this wasn't a piece of art in itself, it still bums me out :(
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,045
Oooh that makes much more sense. For some reason I was under the impression that it was pretty much all stonework and that the rooms would be isolated enough to contain the fires/damage. Guess that shows how much I know medieval architecture.
Old churches/cathedrals are built in a specific way. Think of a triangle sitting on top of a square. The square is all stone including the ceiling from the inside, but over that there's the triangle which is made of wood. That portion was the one that was on fire and totally gone now. The reason why there was a risk for the whole thing collapsing was because the fire was really heating up the stone and it'd crack the stone after a point thereby leading to a collapse...if it had happened with the bell tower and the bell fell that's 12 tons of material on top of a structure that's prone to collapsing due to being heated.

There isn't really any proper seal/separation between the "square"
and the "triangle" so while the wood's burning it can take air from the "square" area with high ceiling as these are made to be very airy with lots of space.
 
Oct 27, 2017
833
Miami Beach, FL
I'm seeing people on facebook posting older articles (couple of months old) saying that there were hundreds of cases of arson and vandalism on catholic churches in the past years in France, is there any truth to this? I dont want to link to these articles since i'm not sure how legitimate they are, the sites seem kinda sketchy
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,045
The wood was from trees that were almost 1000 years old and it was still in great condition. From what I've heard, that variety of trees doesn't even exist anymore (I'll have to fact check that, I may have misunderstoond), at least not in the quantities they used back in the 13th century. Obviously they won't rebuild using wood, not after a fire like that... but the structure was made from 1300 of these millenials old oaks, and it's only ashes now. Even if this wasn't a piece of art in itself, it still bums me out :(
I don't thing they were in great condition, infact the whole building was in a relatively unsatisfactory state and it was why they were doing the restoration in the first place. I'm not sure if they were planning on eventually replacing all that wood with newer wood or something else.
 
Oct 27, 2017
568
French here, really happy to see that's we've "only" really just loft the roof. The rest is okay.
I'm surprised it's still standing. when I saw the spire fell down I though it was over, it was going to destroy the stone above and crack the cathedral, but it held up, I'm relieve.

We'll rebuilt it stronger, greater, prettier, more glorious than ever... I hope.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,657
What a miracle that the cathedral was saved. I spent more than 90 minutes last year just staring at the front facade of this masterwork. People often say that the inside is not as nice as Sainte Chapelle or something like Sacre Coeur but damn if this wasn't the most beautiful thing I've seen in Europe. I could not even eat before thinking about this beautiful monument to history being on fire. I know much of the church has been restored before and I am confident they will do it again. I hope many future generations get to see this building and all it means and stands for. Vive la cathédrale.
 
Jan 8, 2018
1,406
earth
I've only been to Paris once in 1998 and I don't think we even went in the cathedral. I remember being extremely impressed with it from the outside but really disappointed that it seemed almost entirely covered in scaffolding. Now I feel bad that we didn't go inside. This is shitty.
 
Oct 25, 2017
940
Japan
You'll possibly be dead before that happens. A restoration / reconstruction of this level on a cathedral (let alone one this old) will take decades to complete.
Unless he's on his 50s or 60s, nah, I will assume it will be ready in no more than 30 years, most likely less.

Sure, it's an old building. But it's also a massive income of tourism money. Paris (and France) will most likely try to get it fixed as fast as possible within safety limits.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,352
France
I'm seeing people on facebook posting older articles (couple of months old) saying that there were hundreds of cases of arson and vandalism on catholic churches in the past years in France, is there any truth to this? I dont want to link to these articles since i'm not sure how legitimate they are, the sites seem kinda sketchy
I don't really remember specific news about cases like that... There are usually more reports of mosques being vandalized.
I'm sure the far right here is gonna be in full fear mongering mode though, as always :/
Racists are gonna say that it can't have been an accident. Even those who are not... I mean, my dad earlier said that he found it strange how many fires there had been in Paris in the last months (not in churches but in regular buildings) and that perhaps, "they" were making tests to see how much time it took for the firefighters to arrive. I told him that I didn't see the point and that he shouldn't fall into conspirationist BS, and he agreed (big relief). I told him that it's no surprise that people want to blame someone, because at least there would be a reason, and the absurdity of an accident in a tragedy like this, the fact that there is no intent behind, can be difficult to grasp. But it is what it is.

I don't thing they were in great condition, infact the whole building was in a relatively unsatisfactory state and it was why they were doing the restoration in the first place. I'm not sure if they were planning on eventually replacing all that wood with newer wood or something else.
I actually heard/saw that earlier in a short segment that had been filmed maybe two years ago in Notre-Dame, and one of the people in charge of the place said that there was no reason to replace most of them because it was still going strong. But yeah they must have replaced some of it over the years though. I still find it fascinating that wood from the 1200s was still doing its job in the structure of the edifice.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,045
Unless he's on his 50s or 60s, nah, I will assume it will be ready in no more than 30 years, most likely less.

Sure, it's an old building. But it's also a massive income of tourism money. Paris (and France) will most likely try to get it fixed as fast as possible within safety limits.
Considering the roof is all gone and they have to rebuild it rather than restore, I think it may be be a lot faster than what we're imagining.

Unless politics comes into play and some people want it to be 100% similar with no additions to design for safety and others want modifications to make it safe.
 
Oct 22, 2018
4,129
The tin foil hat in me says that stuff is a result of a malevolent social engineering effort intended to drive a wedge between people on either side of the political spectrum.
The wedge was driven centuries ago. I wouldn't expect any sort of societal gathering around a Catholic historical site in this day and age. For all its value as an artifact it's also deeply tied to specific ideology. I certainly don't blame folks, especially non-European folks, for seeing this the same way I'd see historic American plantation sites...
 
Oct 28, 2017
667
You'll possibly be dead before that happens. A restoration / reconstruction of this level on a cathedral (let alone one this old) will take decades to complete.
I very much doubt that. At the very least, looking at the images and how it appears that much of the stonework survived, I think that potentially in a few years the building could be in a state where they can reopen at least parts of it to the public and it can be used as a working church again, even if it might take years for them to completely rebuild every single facet of the building. It took 200 years to build it, but only 20 years to rebuild it 19th century. And neither of those people had access to modern construction techniques or CNC milling.

The question now is how they rebuild - do they restore it using identical materials and hand carved construction, at the risk of a slower pace and potentially more susceptible to yet another fire in the future? Or do they use stronger and more modern materials for the roof structure, just with a traditional facade? I think either way they will want to use traditional artisan techniques for aspects such as the stain glass or the interior furnishings, but neither of those things are structural elements that need to be complete before they let people use the building again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,191
man twitter is a mess right now, both the far right and even those on the left are trying to exploit this tragedy for their own self image.

many racists scumbags are going on about "death of western civilization etc" and then those on the left are saying that
"they don't care, its a symbol of colonialism, why should we care if you don't care about indigenous or PoC artifacts being destroyed" like some form of Karma etc.

not linking this to the thread, because I don't want to give them views like last time, but its just shameful that people make this a political act right away
How is the Notre Dame a symbol of colonialism (I know you're not saying this but what is their argument)? Like are they seriously going back to like pre-3rd century? From what Wiki says, prior to a Christian cathedral being built there it was a Roman temple to Jupiter.

...won't somebody please think of the ancient Romans? Or are they trying to be angry about the invasion of Gaul?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,198
The wedge was driven centuries ago. I wouldn't expect any sort of societal gathering around a Catholic historical site in this day and age. For all its value as an artifact it's also deeply tied to specific ideology. I certainly don't blame folks, especially non-European folks, for seeing this the same way I'd see historic American plantation sites...
Do you really think non-Europeans are that petty? And I can appreciate pretty looking plantation mansions. In those I wouldn't judge them on its dark history but rather than because they are new-ish. "Oh the house is 150 years old? That's nice I guess."
 
Oct 30, 2017
716
man twitter is a mess right now, both the far right and even those on the left are trying to exploit this tragedy for their own self image.

many racists scumbags are going on about "death of western civilization etc" and then those on the left are saying that
"they don't care, its a symbol of colonialism, why should we care if you don't care about indigenous or PoC artifacts being destroyed" like some form of Karma etc.

not linking this to the thread, because I don't want to give them views like last time, but its just shameful that people make this a political act right away
I would recommend staying off Twitter. I never even signed up and thank god for that! The whole site is destructive for any hope of civility.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,998
The wedge was driven centuries ago. I wouldn't expect any sort of societal gathering around a Catholic historical site in this day and age. For all its value as an artifact it's also deeply tied to specific ideology. I certainly don't blame folks, especially non-European folks, for seeing this the same way I'd see historic American plantation sites...
Of course the wedge exists, but I'm referring to signal boosting fringe perspectives on both sides in light of a fresh wound to drive each side further apart. This isn't the point of the thread though so I'll drop the conspiracy theories.

On another note, I think any building around as old, influential, and famous as Notre Dame are going to have some pretty bad things associated with it by virtue of requiring wealthy/powerful people to build and maintain them. One can recognize the many issues with the Catholic Church and still be sad that an incredibly historic and important building burst into flames. Off the cuff comments about how this is good because the Catholic Church is bad just come off as shallow hot takes.