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Fire breaks out at Notre Dame cathedral, developing situation [Update: major structural collapse - Art and other Assets Saved] (See Staff Post)

Feb 2, 2019
143
France
Well, there are buildings and then there are buildings. This specific building dates back to the mid-1100s and just so happens to be the most visited monument in all of Europe. History is important.

But as Dead Guy pointed out, the reconstruction of Notre-Dame is something concrete that will be fixed with money. It's a problem with a straight-forward solution. If you could tell Disney, "With X amount of money, Y number of lives will be saved", then I would expect them to spend a lot more money on that.
I know that it's a problem for tourism, but am I supposed to feel sentimental about "the most visited monument in all of Europe"?

I feel like I have to step up for people who donate money for a building, but can't or don't for other people.

Notre Dame is a vitally important part of Western and modern culture, and human beings can't survive without culture. We are social animals, and no society can ever survive without a shared history and purpose. Art, literature, architecture, science, and history aren't just hobbies or decorations for rich people, they are the living breathing essence of who we are as a society.

Third-world countries and the victims of terrorism definitely deserve all the help they need, and those who can help have a moral obligation to do so, but you can't ask for the "same energy". Preserving great works of art and history is about saving our owning culture and about our own survival, and that has to come first.
So, in other words, it's a builidng, but it's a really pretty building.
I disagree with you that "art, literature, architecture, science, and history aren't just hobbies or decorations for rich people".
I do feel bad for the people who are sad over this, but I think that people are seriously overreacting, and corporations are using this for publicity. Just as a reminder, the New Zealand terrorist attack happened very recently, and it didn't receive half as many tears as this. In fact countless people were cheering on it. In comparison, I've only seen a few of my co-religionists cheer on this (unfortunately). I'm sorry, but from my observation, people are feeling much more empathetic about an old pretty building (read: tourist trap) than about human lives.
 
Dec 15, 2017
856
When I was a kid the first profession that I was interested was architecture. My parents got me a few architecture books for my birthday and I would flip through them over and over again to see the different principle buildings of the world. The stone buildings were always my favorite. The castles, the cathedrals, the great wall, Stonehenge, and the pyramids (especially the Great Pyramid being the most interesting and mysterious structure on the planet).

I always loved the idea of something built to last -- something to stand the test of time. The great cathedrals are a part of our shared human experience. I think it's juvenile to find sides to pick over something like this. I wasn't in this thread when it was burning, but a feeling of collective dread over the destruction of a monument -- even by those who have never been there or seen it -- is valid.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,044
A very young idea does not make it wrong.

A wrong idea (like here, telling human lives is worthless) can have all the history on their side, it's still a wrong idea.
I got that, but it has no bearing on the fact that the value of human worth as we understand it is a relatively new value system. Right or wrong as a categorical distinction doesn't apply when discussing that fact.
Conversely caring about history is an innate value to our modern society. Something that wasn't always the case. Doesn't make those cultures in the past that didn't care for their historic predecessors or their artifacts wrong either. Applying modern standards on history is a fools errand and distorts history.
 
Oct 27, 2017
251
I got that, but it has no bearing on the fact that the value of human worth as we understand it is a relatively new value system. Right or wrong as a categorical distinction doesn't apply when discussing that fact.
Conversely caring about history is an innate value to our modern society. Something that wasn't always the case. Doesn't make those cultures in the past that didn't care for their historic predecessors or their artifacts wrong either. Applying modern standards on history is a fools errand and distorts history.
Those cultures in the past were in the wrong.

And it's not the only case where they were (equality between women and men, racism, ect).
 
Nov 4, 2018
877
Gotta love seeing people complaining about US companies that already have a presence in France wanting to put money on the monument through donatiosn while all of those companies ALSO routinely gives money to french NGOs such as "Resto Du Coeur" which are all about feeding the poor and giving them shelter , and help to rebuild their lives .

Seriously folks everytime Disney or Apple or Google give money to a restoration of an old monument in France do you expect them to remind you that three months ago they gave a big lump of cash to the "Resto Du Coeur" too ?

I get your anger and frustration and all but once again maybe just maybe if you had as staunchly secularists NGOs as is the "Resto du Coeur" maybe it would be a bit less risky image wise to give to them ...

EDIT : I mean where is the outcry from you guys when on every 2nd of February Disney gives some money to help renovate the Brézé Castle in the Loire Valley ?
 
Feb 14, 2018
2,024
"Notre Dame Cathedral fire likely caused by short circuit: Police official"

"The police official would not comment on an unsourced report in Le Parisian newspaper that investigators are looking at whether the fire could have been linked to a computer glitch or the temporary elevators used in the renovation work, among other things. The prosecutor’s office said only that “all leads must be explored.” "

here


"Notre-Dame’s Safety Planners Underestimated the Risk, With Devastating Results"

"The system was based on the assumption that if the cathedral ever caught fire, the ancient oak timbers in the attic would burn slowly, leaving ample time to fight the flames, said Benjamin Mouton, the architect who oversaw the fire protections. "
"“I was stunned by the speed with which the oak in Notre-Dame burned,” Mr. Mouton said. “Oak that old can’t burn like a match. It’s absolutely incomprehensible.”
But fire safety experts said that Mr. Mouton and his team underestimated the risk — and that the fire response they designed was far too slow to fight a blaze in time.

more info here
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,776
Not as much as human lives.
Yes, I addressed that in the second part of my post.

I know that it's a problem for tourism, but am I supposed to feel sentimental about "the most visited monument in all of Europe"?
People aren't feeling sentimental because it's the most visited monument in Europe; it's the most visited monument in Europe because it has tremendous historical and cultural value, and yes, you can feel sentimental about that. Maybe you're not French or European and don't grasp the importance of Notre-Dame, and that's fine, but there are very obvious reasons why people have every right to care that deeply about Notre-Dame.

Besides, Disney does donate to charity anyway.
 
Feb 2, 2019
143
France
Yes, I addressed that in the second part of my post.



People aren't feeling sentimental because it's the most visited monument in Europe; it's the most visited monument in Europe because it has tremendous historical and cultural value, and yes, you can feel sentimental about that. Maybe you're not French or European and don't grasp the importance of Notre-Dame, and that's fine, but there are very obvious reasons why people have every right to care that deeply about Notre-Dame.

Besides, Disney does donate to charity anyway.
I'm French.
Everyone I know, including myself, has been struggling extremely hard to make it to the end of the month, because of Macron's government forcing us into poverty.
I would much rather see the government use money to help us out, than use money to rebuild some dusty old building. And in fact I would rather see all these people donating money to help out suffering communities throughout the world than to help rebuild a dusty old building. I see human lives being destroyed all the time, both from personal experience and in worldwide news, I have no idea how I'm supposed to cry for a cathedral.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,776
I'm French.
Everyone I know, including myself, has been struggling extremely hard to make it to the end of the month, because of Macron's government forcing us into poverty.
I would much rather see the government use money to help us out, than use money to rebuild some dusty old building. And in fact I would rather see all these people donating money to help out suffering communities throughout the world than to help rebuild a dusty old building. I see human lives being destroyed all the time, both from personal experience and in worldwide news, I have no idea how I'm supposed to cry for a cathedral.
I'm French too. The situation in France is just not easy to solve. Disney can't just throw $5 million at French people knowing that it will solve all of our problems. It's a quagmire that originated long before Macron. Disney can, however, throw money at the Notre-Dame reconstruction effort knowing that it will help reconstructing Notre-Dame. That's why they do it.

But as another poster pointed out, Disney has been helping out with the Restos du Cœur, for example. The Notre-Dame reconstruction effort is one cause amongst many that they're putting their weight behind.
 
Feb 2, 2019
143
France
I'm French too. The situation in France is just not easy to solve. Disney can't just throw $5 million at French people knowing that it will solve all of our problems. It's a quagmire that originated long before Macron. Disney can, however, throw money at the Notre-Dame reconstruction effort knowing that it will help reconstructing Notre-Dame. That's why they do it.

But as another poster pointed out, Disney has been helping out with the Restos du Cœur, for example. The Notre-Dame reconstruction effort is one cause amongst many that they're putting their weight behind.
I'm not bothered by Disney in particular, but by the immense international sadness and worry over the cathedral, when people don't feel half as emotional when what is concerned is not a cultual symbol, but the lives of people. Whether it is the situation in France (I know 2 people who have attempted suicide over this recently), or a more grave issue like the situation of black people in America, or even isolated issues like the Christchurch terrorist attack, not even half of the efforts that are done for Notre Dame are done for these.
Maybe you can call me jealous of Notre Dame...
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
Flint still doesn't have clean water. Puerto Rico still doesn't have stable electricity. And yet we see people tripping over themselves to donate money for a building. It's gross.
People have ties to faith and artwork, that's simple enough to figure out.

Comparitively less people know about Flint despite the press it's gotten in the past. I wish more people cared, but I'm not going to be angry about putting more money to a good cause.
 
Oct 28, 2017
75
While we should always value human lives we need something to look to. And sometimes cultural items like this give us something to look to. Something to look up to. Having the idea that saving every human life but let the world burn is a little too chaotic for my tastes. Sometimes we need something for those artistic folks to look at and say I want to build something like that. I want to paint something like that. Or I just want something like that to inspire me. In this case the specific Monument brings tourism money and national togetherness. I agree we need to save human lives, but we need to take money from a whole lot of other places to do that. Not here.
 
Nov 4, 2018
877
Same tiring shit we've heard since rich people have been putting money towards its restoration , as if for some reason giving to Notre Dame means you're not giving to other charities as well ...
Also it's them not realizing that whatever other cause they want the rich to give to , is also gonna suffer from all that yelling at the rich for donating to them instead ...
They don't even remotely consider that having some many people yell at them "Hey give to -insert whatever other cause here- instead it will be more useful you dipshit" is really off putting and reflects poorly on the people working for those charities ...
 
Nov 4, 2018
877
Just in case some people didn't see it ...

A tweet from the Great Mosque of Paris

In fact on their website here : https://www.mosqueedeparis.net/appe...tionale-pour-la-reconstruction-de-notre-dame/

They even detail Further (in French of course) that Notre Dame should be to all muslims equally as significant to them as it is to christians, reminding that Jesus is mentioned in the Quran as a minor Prophet , and the building is dedicated to his mom Mary known in the Quran as Meriem ...
 
Nov 4, 2018
877
Yeah it will take a while before the roads around it are even opened to the public.

Fire investigations , then agents of "Monuements de France" will have to perform their inspection ... and so on and so on ...

Notre Dame will be enjoyed from afar for the time being sadly.
 
Oct 27, 2017
659
Today was special since it's Saturday and that's "yellow vest" day. The whole area was closed to avoid issues with demonstrations. I suppose the "parvis" in front of the cathedral will soon be open to all again. There is even a project of building a temporary wooden cathedral there, for tourists and people who want to attend mass.