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Fire breaks out at Notre Dame cathedral, developing situation [Update: major structural collapse - Art and other Assets Saved] (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Smokeymicpot
- Start date
I feel somewhat annoyed by all this... Every big corporation is donating large sums of money for a building with major cultural influence, but you don't find the same energy when it comes to helping third-world countries, helping support communities and rebuild property damaged by terrorists, doing something good for the environment, etc.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but... It's just a building. Why are corporations spending so much energy toward this when things of infinitely greater gravity need their (and our) attention? Everyone is ready to make a sacrifice for Notre-Dame, but were they doing the same for oppressed minorities throughout the world? For other historical or religious buildings that are destroyed with malicious intent? For the environmental crisis? Maybe I'm just trying to find a problem, I don't know...
edit: I guess that corporations do help for those issues, but what disturbs me is the speed at which everyone has been responding to this, as well as the publicity of it.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but... It's just a building. Why are corporations spending so much energy toward this when things of infinitely greater gravity need their (and our) attention? Everyone is ready to make a sacrifice for Notre-Dame, but were they doing the same for oppressed minorities throughout the world? For other historical or religious buildings that are destroyed with malicious intent? For the environmental crisis? Maybe I'm just trying to find a problem, I don't know...
edit: I guess that corporations do help for those issues, but what disturbs me is the speed at which everyone has been responding to this, as well as the publicity of it.
Honestly that's what I think too. Some dude was having a smoke and dumped it somewhere thinking it was out.
Dunno about that , they were already reaching out to historians to document themselves a bit on the building.
On the last part though them waiting it out to coincide with reopening , yeah I could see them doing it . It would be a bit bad taste but on the other hand that would give them even more excuse to use the cinema complex at Disney Village in Marne la Vallée (so Disneyland Paris) to show the film in all languages .
As in the government would probably look the other way when it comes to the live action remake screenings at Disney Village breaking quotas.
(we got regualtory quotas for subtitled screenings that gets a bit in the way for Disney Village cinemas every now and then , granted most of the time they go "fine I'll pay the fine how much is it ?" )
The thing is though that a ton of problems in those third world countries are not gonna be fixed by throwing money at them. When you have corrupt governments, police forces, religious leaders etc. you can throw all the money in the world at them and nothing will change until they're gone. In fact you may just be lining their pockets and causing more harm than good.
When people donate to the reconstruction of Notre dame they know that their money is going to a specific thing, not a country where it's use could be anything. I think it's much easier to donate to something that you know will actually happen one day rather than a vague cause that will take decades to centuries to happen where you don't even know where your money ended up at all.
So apparently they want to organize an architect competition to decide what the new spire will look like ...
And will also take suggestion on how to rebuild identically in terms of outlook.
But before launching anything there's gonna be consultation with the other political parties through a discussion within an extraodinary great assembly (that's when both french law makers and the Senate shares the chamber doesn't happen very often , but the president has the power to call for a global assembly of that kind in difficult times)
As a frenchie I'm afraid of what they will decide . But hey at least Macron is using his presidential privileges correctly for once ...
And will also take suggestion on how to rebuild identically in terms of outlook.
But before launching anything there's gonna be consultation with the other political parties through a discussion within an extraodinary great assembly (that's when both french law makers and the Senate shares the chamber doesn't happen very often , but the president has the power to call for a global assembly of that kind in difficult times)
As a frenchie I'm afraid of what they will decide . But hey at least Macron is using his presidential privileges correctly for once ...
Nah, cynical as it sounds, this is kind of gold for them as they could bounce off the increased sentimentality toward the building.
And production-wise, it's not like they were ever gonna actually film in and around the building lol.
They could have very well relied on the real place in fact Hunchback of Notre Dame being seen as a common immaterial french patrimony Ministry of Culture would have probably greatly helped in securing the place for the shooting of the film and even furnish technicians for free .
Hell the last Mission Impossible movie was helped by the CNC under the patronnage of the Ministry of Culture to secure some of the spots of Paris that were in the script so that they would film the most scenes on the premises and paid french technicians , to help with the filming to show off that we have real pros (especially for cars and motorbike stunts like the ones they filmed) that are on par with american pros .
You really think Disney would give a pass on saving money on production costs of that kind ? lol .
Hell they were already having the discussion two month ago with the current Minister of Culture to receive some help to reach out to specialists of the building ...
Also bear in mind that Disney and French Ministry of Culture have a bit of a love hate relationship and its often Disney that fucked up , so any chance to make peace they have , they have a tendency to jump on it ...
I'm working on construction sites since over 20 years and I have seen some shit.
The "problem"(for heavy smokers) is mostly working on huge scaffolds like they did at notre dame.
Do you really think a heavy smoking construction worker climbs down the scaffold just to have a smoke? No, he doesn't. no one does
Now I'm 100% sure they are/were not allowed to smoke at(or near) the notre dame site (especially with the under construction of the roof being out of superold oak) but I'm also 100% sure that, once the supervisor left, they smoked where they want. That's what they all do all the time. When you are up 20m on a scaffold all day long, you also tend to smoke there.
Jean Nouvel says "If I can help I will"
And frenchies are all going "No Hell No" , Jean Nouvel is the architect that was in charge of "renovating" the Lyon Opéra House and well people are still mad about the end result.
Beside the guy is obsessed with modern structures and glass sooo people don't want him to touch it with a ten foot pole. (I don't blame them)
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This is what I exactly thought on minute one when it was confirmed an accident.
Fire just starting some time after the workers finished? The work being on a roof outside?
Yeah that sounds like a negligent idiotic worker.
If this is what really happened they are going to find that cig, just like they find it every time when a forest catches fire in europe. Someone is at home knowing about that cig he finished on the roof and he is having fucking nightamares right now (if the cig thing happened of course).
Someone was arrested with gasoline and lighters inside St. Patricks.
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/04/ma...soline-st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-police/
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/04/ma...soline-st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-police/
lol
The thing is, they can find if it was a cig. And then questions start with the workers being last there working, and then they discover you and your ass is handed to justice, no need to tell anybody.
Probably more than that (like when you burn a forest by negligence of thtowing a cig), but its not only that, its the public outcry.
He will lose his job, he will be known worldwide as the man that burned notre dame, no one is going to give him a new job, etc...
Man's gonna need to go into hiding so he isn't killed by the French public.
So far we don't know for certain what happened also saddly because there were metal parts to cut down to proceed with various renovations it could very well be a bunch of sparks flew higher than the spark shield that then ignited the carpentry slowly .
Please people let the police and the firefighters do their job when it comes to determine what happened . There are procedures for a reason and as pointed out earlier in this thread , we manage to pin down entire forest fires to a single cig bud , if it was negligence we will know .
Please people let the police and the firefighters do their job when it comes to determine what happened . There are procedures for a reason and as pointed out earlier in this thread , we manage to pin down entire forest fires to a single cig bud , if it was negligence we will know .
The culprit won't be the only one that would have smoked on the job site. I doubt a lowly worker will be crucified because of it. The people overseeing the the project though. They should have known better.
In the end it probably was a heater of electrical tool that shorted. Or one of many tools that cause sparks when using them on metal.
In the end it probably was a heater of electrical tool that shorted. Or one of many tools that cause sparks when using them on metal.
And that's without counting the electrical lifts leading workers atop the sacfolding that were stoped twice since the begining of the renovation because its rims were not correctly greased up and blew sparks twice upon reaching top level ...
ah ah yeah,but you can't do that on Notre Dame actually.The site is registered on the UNESCO World Heritage list.So you're not allowed to go really crazy with the rebuild.
As if it stopped french government in the past . And worst of all they are all already discussing organizing an architects competition to select who's gonna rebuild the roof and the spire.
example?
Well the competition is more about the spire,and it makes sense.
Yup I feel the same way. Won't argue that it isn't a tragedy but damn if its a sad look when american companies and rich people are just taking out the wallet for a fucking building when nobody has seemingly been concerned about taking care of the crisis here in America.
Don't remember one specifically but going against UNESCO recommandations in France isn't unheard of.
I feel like I have to step up for people who donate money for a building, but can't or don't for other people.
Notre Dame is a vitally important part of Western and modern culture, and human beings can't survive without culture. We are social animals, and no society can ever survive without a shared history and purpose. Art, literature, architecture, science, and history aren't just hobbies or decorations for rich people, they are the living breathing essence of who we are as a society.
Third-world countries and the victims of terrorism definitely deserve all the help they need, and those who can help have a moral obligation to do so, but you can't ask for the "same energy". Preserving great works of art and history is about saving our owning culture and about our own survival, and that has to come first.
Well, there are buildings and then there are buildings. This specific building dates back to the mid-1100s and just so happens to be the most visited monument in all of Europe. History is important.
But as Dead Guy pointed out, the reconstruction of Notre-Dame is something concrete that will be fixed with money. It's a problem with a straight-forward solution. If you could tell Disney, "With X amount of money, Y number of lives will be saved", then I would expect them to spend a lot more money on that.
The idea that human lives are worth anything is, historically speaking, very young.
I know that it's a problem for tourism, but am I supposed to feel sentimental about "the most visited monument in all of Europe"?
So, in other words, it's a builidng, but it's a really pretty building.
I disagree with you that "art, literature, architecture, science, and history aren't just hobbies or decorations for rich people".
I do feel bad for the people who are sad over this, but I think that people are seriously overreacting, and corporations are using this for publicity. Just as a reminder, the New Zealand terrorist attack happened very recently, and it didn't receive half as many tears as this. In fact countless people were cheering on it. In comparison, I've only seen a few of my co-religionists cheer on this (unfortunately). I'm sorry, but from my observation, people are feeling much more empathetic about an old pretty building (read: tourist trap) than about human lives.
A very young idea does not make it wrong.
A wrong idea (like here, telling human lives is worthless) can have all the history on their side, it's still a wrong idea.
When I was a kid the first profession that I was interested was architecture. My parents got me a few architecture books for my birthday and I would flip through them over and over again to see the different principle buildings of the world. The stone buildings were always my favorite. The castles, the cathedrals, the great wall, Stonehenge, and the pyramids (especially the Great Pyramid being the most interesting and mysterious structure on the planet).
I always loved the idea of something built to last -- something to stand the test of time. The great cathedrals are a part of our shared human experience. I think it's juvenile to find sides to pick over something like this. I wasn't in this thread when it was burning, but a feeling of collective dread over the destruction of a monument -- even by those who have never been there or seen it -- is valid.
I always loved the idea of something built to last -- something to stand the test of time. The great cathedrals are a part of our shared human experience. I think it's juvenile to find sides to pick over something like this. I wasn't in this thread when it was burning, but a feeling of collective dread over the destruction of a monument -- even by those who have never been there or seen it -- is valid.
I got that, but it has no bearing on the fact that the value of human worth as we understand it is a relatively new value system. Right or wrong as a categorical distinction doesn't apply when discussing that fact.
Conversely caring about history is an innate value to our modern society. Something that wasn't always the case. Doesn't make those cultures in the past that didn't care for their historic predecessors or their artifacts wrong either. Applying modern standards on history is a fools errand and distorts history.
Those cultures in the past were in the wrong.
And it's not the only case where they were (equality between women and men, racism, ect).
Gotta love seeing people complaining about US companies that already have a presence in France wanting to put money on the monument through donatiosn while all of those companies ALSO routinely gives money to french NGOs such as "Resto Du Coeur" which are all about feeding the poor and giving them shelter , and help to rebuild their lives .
Seriously folks everytime Disney or Apple or Google give money to a restoration of an old monument in France do you expect them to remind you that three months ago they gave a big lump of cash to the "Resto Du Coeur" too ?
I get your anger and frustration and all but once again maybe just maybe if you had as staunchly secularists NGOs as is the "Resto du Coeur" maybe it would be a bit less risky image wise to give to them ...
EDIT : I mean where is the outcry from you guys when on every 2nd of February Disney gives some money to help renovate the Brézé Castle in the Loire Valley ?
Seriously folks everytime Disney or Apple or Google give money to a restoration of an old monument in France do you expect them to remind you that three months ago they gave a big lump of cash to the "Resto Du Coeur" too ?
I get your anger and frustration and all but once again maybe just maybe if you had as staunchly secularists NGOs as is the "Resto du Coeur" maybe it would be a bit less risky image wise to give to them ...
EDIT : I mean where is the outcry from you guys when on every 2nd of February Disney gives some money to help renovate the Brézé Castle in the Loire Valley ?