Fire Emblem: Three Houses Plot, Characters and routes discussion thread (Open Spoilers)

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
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Clearly the answer here is to find someone to love Rhea and her to love them back!
So ... in order to not get crazy and die, she needs her mommy issues solved by pairing up with the one who has her mother's heart and soul?

Perfectly stable person. Really. Imo the fact that she's only able to get herself together with her mother/experiment at her side makes her just more damaged.
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
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Oct 25, 2017
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They werent able to do it when Edelgard was alone, nothing indicates that they would be able to do that with all the 3 powers together.
I... don't think you get what I'm saying.

Let's say all three leaders put their heads together and decide to give peaceful change a chance - a real chance. They assume control of their countries, Edelgard gets rid of Those who Slither... peacefully... somehow... without anybody getting nuked, then they turn to Rhea and say "yo we know you're a dragon we'd like to control our own continent and possibly get rid of the crested nobility system you built please leave. She says... no. She doesn't go axe crazy and order the Knights to start burning cities (though honestly there's a solid chance that happens anyway), she just refuses, and excommunicates all of them. That's in her power! She then says that their reforms are heresy and anybody caught subscribing to them will be labeled a heretic, and we know what happens to heretics. So now you've got a church headed by a dragon who won't leave who executes anybody they can actually catch trying to reform anything. Not the leaders, not even the higher-ups, but like, random imperial, alliance, and kingdom officials and nobility, the little pieces of the larger nation, the parts they can get to.

Is this a situation that gets resolved peacefully? Or do the leaders need to put their foot down and actually march forth?
The massage is pretty obvious. Shit needed to be stirred for change to happen. Now, wether or not the one stirring shit up reaps the benefits, that’s a story for another day. We have a few historical examples of revolutions where the final "winners" are far from those who started it in the first place. If anything I don’t think we can find historical examples of radical changes occurring without violence.
Not prior to liberal democracy, and even then, there's still usually some violence.
 

Pirate Bae

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Sorry, thought I was in the other thread for some reason.

She wouldn't have. She forces you to kill her on the threat that she's just gonna keep continuing the war if you don't. She makes it perfectly clear at the start of the timeskip that she's not gonna try convincing you anymore and just wants you dead. This seems to carry over into every route but her own. Rhea on the other hand WOULD have, had she not gone corrupt due to extensive magic nuke damage.


And what is the Empire? The history is the reason for a change in leadership, so that it may no longer continue.
?

I’m not sure what you’re saying here lol
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Edelgard gets rid of Those who Slither... peacefully... somehow... without anybody getting nuked
You mean like her epilogue?
I... don't think you get what I'm saying.

Let's say all three leaders put their heads together and decide to give peaceful change a chance - a real chance. They assume control of their countries, Edelgard gets rid of Those who Slither... peacefully... somehow... without anybody getting nuked, then they turn to Rhea and say "yo we know you're a dragon we'd like to control our own continent and possibly get rid of the crested nobility system you built please leave. She says... no. She doesn't go axe crazy and order the Knights to start burning cities (though honestly there's a solid chance that happens anyway), she just refuses, and excommunicates all of them. That's in her power! She then says that their reforms are heresy and anybody caught subscribing to them will be labeled a heretic, and we know what happens to heretics. So now you've got a church headed by a dragon who won't leave who executes anybody they can actually catch trying to reform anything.

Is this a situation that gets resolved peacefully? Or do the leaders need to put their foot down and actually march forth?
There is also the possibility that Rhea just passes the control of the church to Byleth peacefully after TWS are dealt with. Simple no bloodshed. No war.
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
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I wonder ... Seteth and Flayn were with Rhea most of the time, right? Did they not see her drifting into the good old FE-stable dragon madness and tried to do something?
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
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Oct 25, 2017
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You mean like her epilogue?
Her epilogue after she's conquered the continent, Those who Slither think they're sitting fat and happy and she has huge amounts of power, yes. Slightly different context!
There is also the possibility that Rhea just passes the control of the church peacefully after TWS are dealt with. Simple no bloodshed. No war.
I honestly don't see it. Her vendetta isn't specifically against the Agarthians, it's against Fodlan humanity writ large, compiled into a huge mother complex. She's never going to accept destroying the Crest of Flames.
 

Z-Beat

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Oct 25, 2017
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?

I’m not sure what you’re saying here lol
Edelgard would never relinquish the throne on the grounds that you could do things better, much of it having to do with her own pride. Hubert of all people is the one who enacts the plan of "look, if this goes south, I'm leaving it up to you guys to do things better" behind Edelgard's back. Rhea leaves you in charge shortly before trying to sacrifice herself to save everyone, then again after she tanks all those magic nukes, and apparently still does even if she lives. She admits fault for the flaws in her plans, and basically gives up on trying to bring her mother back after she sacrificed herself to save Byleth from the shadow realm.
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
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Rhea isnt as evil as those, that is why they were ok. She only goes nuts in the edelgard route.
She tried to revive her mother multiple times by implanting a crest heart into a human. How does this, from the point of view of a serious, well-though person like Seteth, look like? Mentally fine?

Please.
 

Pirate Bae

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You mean like her epilogue?

There is also the possibility that Rhea just passes the control of the church to Byleth peacefully after TWS are dealt with. Simple no bloodshed. No war.
Was it peaceful, though? We don’t know either way. The argument that she was able to do it peacefully doesn’t exist at all, in any scenario, because there’s no proof.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Her epilogue after she's conquered the continent, Those who Slither think they're sitting fat and happy and she has huge amounts of power, yes. Slightly different context!

I honestly don't see it. Her vendetta isn't specifically against the Agarthians, it's against Fodlan humanity writ large, compiled into a huge mother complex. She's never going to accept destroying the Crest of Flames.
But that is what she does in other routes
Was it peaceful, though? We don’t know either way. The argument that she was able to do it peacefully doesn’t exist at all, in any scenario, because there’s no proof.
There is no proof either way so you can't claim the contrary either.
 

HBK

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Oct 30, 2017
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I wonder ... Seteth and Flayn were with Rhea most of the time, right? Did they not see her drifting into the good old FE-stable dragon madness and tried to do something?
I dunno. I’m not sure if dragon degeneration is mentioned as a known occurrence in the game. I mean we all know it’s a series’ staple so maybe I didn’t pay attention but it’s possible they simply don’t know it yet (or I missed the dialog).

Edit: Which is also one of the major points people seem to forget. No matter how you see Rhea’s actions and behavior, she’s quite literally a ticking time bomb (like any other Fire Emblem dragon to date).
 

Z-Beat

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Oct 25, 2017
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I wonder ... Seteth and Flayn were with Rhea most of the time, right? Did they not see her drifting into the good old FE-stable dragon madness and tried to do something?
I think hers might operate under different rules. Seteth says that at some point all the children of the goddess could shapeshift but you lose that ability over time.
 

Lunar15

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Oct 25, 2017
4,491
I'm not even sure what you guys are even arguing anymore. Is Edelgard right? Sure, why not. The game gives you three whole routes if you disagree. The fact that some people sympathize with Edelgard because she *checks notes* dismantles the nobility, shouldn't be all that surprising, even if you personally don't agree with her methods.

I'm personally not a big fan of Edelgard, but I just don't know why this is so controversial. At the end of the day you're just going to have to accept that people are going to like the character the game obviously makes you like if you play her route.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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My point is that her ideals are good but she could tried a different route. But I know, that because of her childhood, she ends up being short sighted, so for her starting a war is understandable.
 

Pirate Bae

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Edelgard would never relinquish the throne on the grounds that you could do things better, much of it having to do with her own pride. Hubert of all people is the one who enacts the plan of "look, if this goes south, I'm leaving it up to you guys to do things better" behind Edelgard's back. Rhea leaves you in charge shortly before trying to sacrifice herself to save everyone, then again after she tanks all those magic nukes, and apparently still does even if she lives. She admits fault for the flaws in her plans, and basically gives up on trying to bring her mother back after she sacrificed herself to save Byleth from the shadow realm.
Edelgard wants to relinquish the throne, in part because she thinks someone could do it better, but also because it symbolizes a new start for Adrestia and Fodlan.

That was my ending with her, anyway.
 

Pirate Bae

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But that is what she does in other routes

There is no proof either way so you can't claim the contrary either.
Yes. Which makes it a moot argument altogether.

The only thing we know for sure is that Rhea is unhinged no matter what route you choose, and that war was inevitable
 

spiritfox

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Oct 26, 2017
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Obviously the real solution is for the 3 leaders to elect an Antipope and have them excommunicate Rhea and cause a schism in the Church!
 

NSESN

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The only thing we know for sure is that Rhea is unhinged no matter what route you choose, and that war was inevitable
But Rhea is only full unhinged in one route
Also war is only inevitable because Edelgard
Obviously the real solution is for the 3 leaders to elect an Anti-Pope and have them excommunicate Rhea and cause a schism in the Church!
But then Rhea would use her unlimited power to excommunicate the anti-pope.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,807
Playing the game some more and reading through this thread made me realize, is Dimitri's route the only one that doesn't really lead to that great of a reform in society?

Rhea and Edelgard's routes defeat Those Who Slither in the Dark and stop the corrupt actions of the church.
And Claude at least takes down TWSITD.
All Dimitri really does is stop the war with the defeat of the Empire right?
 

SliceSabre

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yes. Which makes it a moot argument altogether.

The only thing we know for sure is that Rhea is unhinged no matter what route you choose, and that war was inevitable
Rhea isn't utterly hopeless as you're making her, the only reason she becomes unhinged in a route is because she was trying to defend everyone from the ICBMs.

War is inevitable because Edelgard desperately wants to go to war.
 

Lunar15

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'd actually say war would be inevitable for the Blue Lions as well, due to Dimitri's desire for revenge against the Empire. He'd eventually trace Duscur back to Arundel (he basically already had) and likely take action at some point.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Uh she used Byleth as a science experiment to bring her dead mom back in every route
She didnt. Byleth's mom is the experiment, she actually saves Byleth's life after his mom asks Rhea to do it
I'd actually say war would be inevitable for the Blue Lions as well, due to Dimitri's desire for revenge against the Empire. He'd eventually trace Duscur back to Arundel (he basically already had) and likely take action at some point.
I think it depends on Dimitri's mental situation. If he knew it wasnt Edelgard and knew that Edelgard was victim too he would for sure lend her strength
 

Lunar15

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I think it depends on Dimitri's mental situation. If he knew it wasnt Edelgard and knew that Edelgard was victim too he would for sure lend her strength
Dimitri's mental state is bad, even before he fully snaps. Dedue says that "punished" dimitri is how he's always known him, it's not until Byleth talks him through it that he actually becomes actually chill.
 

NSESN

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Dimitri's mental state is bad, even before he fully snaps. Dedue says that "punished" dimitri is how he's always known him, it's not until Byleth talks him through it that he actually becomes actually chill.
I know. If Edelgard was more frank with her feelings and what happened to her maybe it would work, but with how closed she is Dimitri wouldnt be able to understand her and would blame her anyways.

That is why I want a route that all the 3 lords work together. I want Edelgard and Dimitri talking about their past, Edelgard and Claude talking about the future of Fodlan, and Dimitri and Claude talking about... I dunno, maybe about racism since Dimitri is close to Dedue?
 

Pirate Bae

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Rhea isn't utterly hopeless as you're making her, the only reason she becomes unhinged in a route is because she was trying to defend everyone from the ICBMs.

War is inevitable because Edelgard desperately wants to go to war.
The alternative is to let a dragon dictator rule over the continent with an iron fist and execute anyone who disagrees with her
 

Lunar15

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Oct 25, 2017
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Anyway, this story is basically just the Diet of Worms period of medieval Europe after Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Rhea isn't that evil. She does a lot of bad things, but she recognizes that and abdicates to Seteth/Byleth because she knows they lead the church better
 

Doc Kelso

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I feel like people are really underestimating the fact that those in power will almost never abdicate unless there is a threat of some sort.

I can’t think of a single example where history has led to a ruler/ruling class say, “Oh shit, you’re right. We are at the top of the food chain for a more or less arbitrary reason,” without someone also threatening them with the tip of a sword, and often making good on those threats at least a handful of times.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,807
I still find it so funny that you only get a conclusive ending in the Church route ONLY if you marry Rhea.

Like you falling in love with this person somehow prevents her from dying. There's not even an additional cutscene between her supposed death and her S-support, you just go from one to the next and it's just a surprise like, "Oh, you're still alive?"
 

NSESN

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I feel like people are really underestimating the fact that those in power will almost never abdicate unless there is a threat of some sort.

I can’t think of a single example where history has led to a ruler/ruling class say, “Oh shit, you’re right. We are at the top of the food chain for a more or less arbitrary reason,” without someone also threatening them with the tip of a sword, and often making good on those threats at least a handful of times.
The difference that Rhea's plan was always to abdicate to Byleth. I would even say that is why she is so mad in Edelgard's route, she was planning to make Byleth the next leader and Byleth betrays her
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
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The difference that Rhea's plan was always to abdicate to Byleth. I would even say that is why she is so mad in Edelgard's route, she was planning to make Byleth the next leader and Byleth betrays her
Let's be honest, she doesn't give a shit about >Byleth< ... she gives a shit about Sothis. And it's a fact that she wants Sothis to take over and transform Byleth into her own body again.

So, the only person she's willing to give the power to is basically the result of multiple experiments to somehow necromance her mother back into life. Given Sothis reaction "Not another death in my name" she clearly doesn't know her mother very well or lost the path down the line.

That's, when you think about it, basically the same thing TWSID try to achieve when they try to resurrect Nemesis.

And about realizing she had done bad things and wants to abdicate ... so does Edelgard.

In the end, the church and Rhea are assholes. TWSID are assholes. And Edelgard is another asshole who just happens to kick the older assholes' butts. ^^
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Let's be honest, she doesn't give a shit about >Byleth< ... she gives a shit about Sothis. And it's a fact that she wants Sothis to take over and transform Byleth into her own body again.

So, the only person she's willing to give the power to is basically the result of multiple experiments to somehow necromance her mother back into life. Given Sothis reaction "Not another death in my name" she clearly doesn't know her mother very well or lost the path down the line.

That's, when you think about it, basically the same thing TWSID try to achieve when they try to resurrect Nemesis.

And about realizing she had done bad things and wants to abdicate ... so does Edelgard.

In the end, the church and Rhea are assholes. TWSID are assholes. And Edelgard is another asshole who just happens to kick the older assholes' butts. ^^
I think only Rhea is really an asshole from the church, we know that Flayn and Seteth are good people and didnt like Rhea's methods. Seteth in particular dont like the crest system, probably because that is the main reason he and Flayn needs to hide
 

suracity

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Nov 6, 2017
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The difference that Rhea's plan was always to abdicate to Byleth. I would even say that is why she is so mad in Edelgard's route, she was planning to make Byleth the next leader and Byleth betrays her
I think Doc Kelso's post not only applies to Rhea tho. Many noble families in each house seize every opportunity to advance their power; even ones lost their power constantly seek new means to regain their status back one way or another. This is explored in depth in paralogues and supports conversations.
I don't think a continent war was inevitable, but if you want any big changes to a stable system that has lasted hundreds of years, there will sure be conflicts.
And we're only talking about political side of things. Add religion reformation on top of that, no matter how progressive/morally correct you are, there will be people opposing you simply because.
 

Bonejack

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Oct 27, 2017
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I think only Rhea is really an asshole from the church, we know that Flayn and Seteth are good people and didnt like Rhea's methods. Seteth in particular dont like the crest system, probably because that is the main reason he and Flayn needs to hide
Yet he decided to do nothing, so did other dragons ("uncle"). If IS intended the Camus-trope for Seteth, they didn't do it well. I'd say he's simply a coward in this regard.

Even if you fight them on Edelgards route and spare them, instead of owning up, he just runs with Flayn.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yet he decided to do nothing, so did other dragons ("uncle"). If IS intended the Camus-trope for Seteth, they didn't do it well. I'd say he's simply a coward in this regard.

Even if you fight them on Edelgards route and spare them, instead of owning up, he just runs with Flayn.
In his eyes Edelgard is someone that is trying to eradicate his people, of course he wont side with her, he knows what happened with Nemesis and he doesnt want the same happening with him or Flayn
 

Doc Kelso

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think Doc Kelso's post not only applies to Rhea tho. Many noble families in each house seize every opportunity to advance their power; even ones lost their power constantly seek new means to regain their status back one way or another. This is explored in depth in paralogues and supports conversations.
I don't think a continent war was inevitable, but if you want any big changes to a stable system that has lasted hundreds of years, there will sure be conflicts.
And we're only talking about political side of things. Add religion reformation on top of that, no matter how progressive/morally correct you are, there will be people opposing you simply because.
This is more or less what I meant, yeah. A ton of the paralogues touch on the fact that there are nobles that do the equivalent of selective breeding just to make sure they have a child with a Crest. Or if you aren’t born with a Crest, you’re a nobody who inherits nothing.

Those nobles aren’t just going to give up that system because the Church said so. Crest “superiority” is all but engrained into the culture of Fodlan.
 

fuzzyset

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Oct 25, 2017
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I kinda love that each route gives such an incomplete picture. I finished BE E last night and came here to find pretty shocking facts that weren't really explored. Went into the fandom wiki. Seems like Rhea definitely has some legit beef but overall still agree that Edelgard smashing the Church and Crests is good for the long term.
 

The Adder

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Oct 25, 2017
6,408
Somebody walk me through how the continent-spanning reforms all the endings get are doable without a war.
The three leaders of the three powers on the continent being in agreement isn't sure to solve everything without any war, but it would sure solve them with less war.

Are we just assuming that Claude or Dimitri can talk to Rhea and make a really good case for why no, really, they should be trusted to empower all of Fodlan, something she's explicitly against, even in her own words?What happens when preachers start talking about how Dimitri or Claude's reforms are heretical?
Firstly, she'd take Byleth's word. But, more than that, the church doesn't have the power to stand against the Empire alone attacking a Garreg Mach prepared for war and still housing the future rulers of 2/3rds of Fodlan's nation. It certainly doesn't have the power to push back against all three. The Church only has power so long as the rest of Fodlan is willing to allow it to.

What happens when Almyrans start crossing the border freely, considering it's literally scripture that no sin committed against "unbelievers" is a sin at all? Do we really think that goes well?
You like to harp on this but

1. "You won't be punished spiritually for fucking with these people" does not mean you won't be punished legally.

2. As much as you cite this it isn't actually axted out on screen.

3. You don't seem to take into account why the Church is isolationist in the first place. It was an overwhelming foreign power invading that lead to Nemesis murdering Sothis to use her heart and corpse as a weapon and to the founders of the noble houses committing genocide upon Rhea's people to follow suit.

Almyra wouldn't be an invading force in this scenario and Rhea could trust that due to Claude.
 

Castile

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Dec 1, 2017
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The fight against the Slithers wasn't just a one off thing, it was a second war all together. Here are snipits from the BE house.

As Byleth set out to fight those who slither in the dark, Petra left the throne of Brigid to her family to follow him. The pair fought many hard battles together against this terrifying enemy before finally emerging victorious after the long war."


Byleth and Mercedes wed in haste, that they might better focus on their battle against those who slither in the dark. The struggle was long and arduous, but their passionate love supported them through it. When at last the fight was done, they moved to a small village in the Faerghus region and started an orphanage."


"Almost immediately after Byleth and Lysithea had celebrated their engagement, the struggle against those who slither in the dark began in earnest. Together they fought tirelessly to bring the war to an end so that Fódlan could have lasting peace. Afterward, they left the Imperial army for Ordelia territory, where they were officially wed."
 

Zeroth

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Oct 25, 2017
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Out of curiosity, is it possible to romance Sothis in a Black Eagle ending? If so, does she say anything about the events that happened?
 

Ultimadrago

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Oct 25, 2017
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Out of curiosity, is it possible to romance Sothis in a Black Eagle ending? If so, does she say anything about the events that happened?
I've double checked and the S-Support is the exact same except one line (which relays the status of the heart's device). Unlike other routes, however, she mentions that the unit on Byleth's heart is gone as she has fused with your very soul, likely after it is destroyed in the fight with Rhea. In other routes, she will slightly change this statement and call the device useless/unneeded instead. I imagine the S-Support is the only ending for that route where she "lives" given that you still lose your Dragon Ball Super hair and powers. This S-Support giving even a mention to her existence at all after the fact.

 
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R.D.Blax

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Oct 26, 2017
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Out of curiosity, is it possible to romance Sothis in a Black Eagle ending? If so, does she say anything about the events that happened?
Yes, but she just talk about how her and Byleth are one and they will together forever or something. Don't know how it is in other route, but I was pretty disapointed by her non existent role post timeskip
 

Apollo

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Oct 25, 2017
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That's all stuff that happens after the status quo shift, though. Could he have done that if the existing structures hadn't gotten blown up? Or would he, like almost all rulers, have been constrained by the systems he was working with? In his route, most every noble is forcibly displaced by Edelgard. If he hadn't personally fought for and recovered their territories, would they have let his reforms fly? Would the Church have been down for more general control of government without his buddy as Archbishop, when one of Rhea's stated goals in all this was to keep humanity in Fodlan restrained?
The nobles would not have been a significant problem. Rodrigue, Felix’s father, head of House Fraldarius and the most prominent noble in Faerghus, is on extraordinarily good terms with Dimitri. Dimitri also has the heirs to houses Gautier, Galatea, and Dominic as part of his personal retinue, as well as the adopted son and defacto heir of House Gaspard. This is a huge bloc of influential noble houses Dimitri can reasonably rely upon in matters of structural reform. I’d argue he would have had a great chance of accomplishing his planned reforms during his lifetime even without the war. Especially as he would have only had to worry about Faerghus instead of all of Fodlan.

What happens if this does draw him into violent conflict with the church? Would he even be willing to fight against it? I’d argue he would. If the status quo oppresses the weak, as it was, Dimitri would without a doubt fight against it. We know he’s deeply eager to take the throne because it pains him to not be able to help his people. If his ragtag army can push back the empire and ultimately unify Fodlan during Edelgard’s war, I have little doubt he’d be able to hold his own against the church. Especially if Claude and Edelgard offer their aid. Edelgard at least would jump at the chance to stop the church from asserting its dominance. And against the combined strength of the Kingdom and the Empire, I don’t think there’s much the church can do. This would be a means to status quo change without continent-wide war.