Fire Emblem: Three Houses Plot, Characters and routes discussion thread (Open Spoilers)

Shin Kojima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
346
I cleared the Edelgard route and after the time skip she went way too Danaerys Targaryen for me to still really like her (but if you're into bloodthirsty self-righteous despots she may be your jam).
Phenomenal game though.
 
OP
OP
Xavi

Xavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,824
Lightning for Smash
I cleared the Edelgard route and after the time skip she went way too Danaerys Targaryen for me to still really like her (but if you're into bloodthirsty self-righteous despots she may be your jam).
Phenomenal game though.
That reductive as hell. She's more than that.

That would be like me saying: If you are into depressed edgelords, Dimitri may be your jam.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
Even the British Empire mostly got to where it was at its peak through colonization, NOT rapid military expansion filtered through a cult of personality.
Err, colonization (Earth history) is literally sending military troops to annex a land defended with inferior technological weaponry, AND pretend to do it for the sake of god's generosity (we gotta enlighten those primitives y'a know).
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
The bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.

Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,107
The bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.

Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
the outcome...basically the same as the golden deer route
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
The bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.

Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
That's so true it actually hurts lol
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,909
This is true. I wonder what happened to them? Most likely killed for running away.
I'd guess that person was part of the plan and was expected to run away at the first sight of big trouble. Wouldn't be surprised if Edelgard's uncle of the Slitherers got rid of them afterwards.

Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
I could see her willing to work with Claude. Though the whole mistery about him, AND him even playing with that image, made short end to this.

Maybe with some of Dimitri's "more honest" character traits, she would've considered it. Though maybe that whole heir of Almyra thing could've rubbed her the wrong way, too.

That whole (well, small) part is the one I can't really wrap my head-on.

The fact that's (IIRC) it's not touched upon later doesn't help obviously, but the whole plan hardly makes any sense.

I mean either it's a legit attempted murder and then it's like REALLY STUPID on her part as she almost got killed and litteraly only got saved by divine intervention. I mean why not. Plans don't always come together. But come on. Later in the game the same idiotic girl can kick Rhea out of her monastery? That's one hell of a stretch.

And if it was intended as a diversion then I don't see how Jeralt/Byleth changes much to the plan. She'd have planned to defeat the bandits anyway. So why didn't anyone attack the monastery?

It just makes no sense (except providing the mandatory "kill the bandits" first FE mission). Unless the diversion was so that they could infiltrate someone? But it's never explained so 🤷‍♀️
I imagine the timeframe for a hit on Rhea, Seteth or Flayn was short to begin with. I mean ... bunch of grunt brigands vs the Knight of Seiros lead by one of their commander, not really an even match. Edelgard might've stalled the encounter by moving further away from the Knights, which was not possible with Jeralt and Byleth facing them at Remire and thus allowing the Knights to catch up.

Maybe she even tried to seperate from Claude and Dimitri to either avoid her own death or to lead a possible strike on Garreg Mach as the Flame Emperor?
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,162
Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
She's really not bloodthirsty in any reasonable take on her motives. She's willing to spill it if necessary, but that's pretty different.

The 2 big things standing in the way of her working with the others is lack of trust and incredible devotion to her goals. She just doesn't believe that anybody else can be trusted to carry out her vision. I think that the big thing that would have to happen is to force her to trust people, take the choice out of her hands. It'd need to be early, before she has her own powerbase, since as we see later, once she's begun the war she's fully committed.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,085
Err, colonization (Earth history) is literally sending military troops to annex a land defended with inferior technological weaponry, AND pretend to do it for the sake of god's generosity (we gotta enlighten those primitives y'a know).
I'm aware. Colonization wasn't good. But it's a different kind of scenario than "LET ME START A MASSIVE CONTINENT-WIDE WAR SO I CAN PERSONALLY RULE OVER THE ASHES AFTER IT'S OVER".
 

NSESN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Claude comes from the weakest territory that he isnt even the sovereign of, just the leader. If he didnt make his image like that people would just run over him.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
I imagine the timeframe for a hit on Rhea, Seteth or Flayn was short to begin with. I mean ... bunch of grunt brigands vs the Knight of Seiros lead by one of their commander, not really an even match. Edelgard might've stalled the encounter by moving further away from the Knights, which was not possible with Jeralt and Byleth facing them at Remire and thus allowing the Knights to catch up.

Maybe she even tried to seperate from Claude and Dimitri to either avoid her own death or to lead a possible strike on Garreg Mach as the Flame Emperor?
Plausible, I admit. But never really hinted by the game so 🤷‍♀️
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
The only hard part about getting them to team up would be convincing Dimitri that Edelgard was not a part of the Tragedy of Duscur and making Edelgard feel more remorse/frustration at having enabled them in the first place. You'd have to do some real ass-pull dialogue to get everyone to be fine with Edelgard being the flame emperor, but it's not like the game doesn't already do that with having a bunch of classmates join Edelgard in her route.
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,909
Claude comes from the weakest territory that he isnt even the sovereign of, just the leader. If he didnt make his image like that people would just run over him.
A short comment that he's also the crown-prince of Almyra, on top of the actual, biological grandson of Reigan should've been enough to have no one try some wonky shit. ;D

Plausible, I admit. But never really hinted by the game so 🤷‍♀️
IS! I want these questions answered!

I'm really interested ... was it a dumb plan? Some 4D chess play? No plan at all and basically "Let's see what happens"? ^^
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,162
The only hard part about getting them to team up would be convincing Dimitri that Edelgard was not a part of the Tragedy of Duscur and making Edelgard feel more remorse/frustration at having enabled them in the first place. You'd have to do some real ass-pull dialogue to get everyone to be fine with Edelgard being the flame emperor, but it's not like the game doesn't already do that with having a bunch of classmates join Edelgard in her route.
I dunno, she was all of like... 6 at the time. Dimitri thinking she personally orchestrated the tragedy was always kinda dumb. I think that if you could get her on board with trusting Claude the two of them could conceivably bring Dimitri around. He's still sweet on Edelgard, and having Claude as a... third party voice of reason would probably carry the rest.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
I'm aware. Colonization wasn't good. But it's a different kind of scenario than "LET ME START A MASSIVE CONTINENT-WIDE WAR SO I CAN PERSONALLY RULE OVER THE ASHES AFTER IT'S OVER".
I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.

And what you describe is a massive oversimplification.

In her "solo" ending:
"With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye."

Similar quotes can be found in most pairings (but not Byleth pairing, go figure).
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
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Oct 25, 2017
5,162
I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.

And what you describe is a massive oversimplification.

In her "solo" ending:
"With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye."

Similar quotes can be found in most pairings (but not Byleth pairing, go figure).
Her having a bit of Cincinnatus in her always made it hard for me to take too seriously the takes that she's just in it for power. I get that lots of people in the real world have started bloody conflicts for high minded reasons and then descended into regular totalitarianism, but she like... doesn't do that. The power and the violence really is just a means to an end, and the end is pretty good.
 

Terraforce

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,890
That's why it's so weird that fans have lined up to be like 'YUP SHE WAS RIGHT AND HER METHODS ARE JUSTIFIED', oftentimes before even playing any of the other paths but sometimes AFTER playing all of them.

Like, you can sympathize with a flawed villain and understand his or her motivations without immediately jumping to "SHE WAS RIGHT" territory. That's part of the reason why Suikoden II's story worked - the player understands WHY Jowy felt he had to take the route he did to free Highland, even if they disagree with his methods and spend the whole game wanting him to just see reason and step back from the edge of the abyss.

Just because she's really good in combat doesn't mean she's a good person. :|
A freaking Men to that, and good point on the Jowy comparison. Though tbf I think that's the fault of the player in a lot of cases because they went into the game wanting to like Edelgard. But it is mind boggling how black and white some people think this story is. So quick to say Edelgard is justified in everything or at least most of what she does simply because she wants to reform the system. Or that Rhea is objectively the villain here because of certain implications. Though this seems less prevalent of an opinion from people who have actually taken the time to complete multiple paths and not just the Edelgard option.

Claude might be the only path I'd say is completely justified in his actions and ends with a relatively happy ending.

I don't really think it is, though. Her ideology is fine unless you bring real world political science into it. Her methods are questionable, though I would argue less questionable than people think, given the history and perspectives involved, but that's distinct from her ideology. It's not like she prizes making hard choices, you really get the sense from a lot of her dialogue (and the Flame Emperor's) that she hates "having" to do this. But she's set on her course, so do them she must.

I think people overvalue "peace" in a setting like this. Rhea/Seiros' peace isn't like... harmony. It's stasis, or worse. Generations of people ground down under strict bloodline rule so an ancient dragon can try over and over to bring back her mother. That's not a peace worth fighting for.
I'd say merely believing a dictatorship is the solution to reform a corrupt society is very flawed. Especially when the other paths expose the hundreds of lives she's sacrificed and the mental and emotional turmoil she causes many characters to endure. She's very much an "ends justify the means" kind of character which I think is a terribly flawed way to go about forcing people to unite under her banner. Just as Rhea's rule wasn't "harmony," neither is this forced subjugation. I don't know how it wouldn't backfire due to social unrest.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,085
I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.

And what you describe is a massive oversimplification.

In her "solo" ending:
"With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye."

Similar quotes can be found in most pairings (but not Byleth pairing, go figure).
The point I was making is that there is a difference between building an empire gradually over hundreds of years vs. literally setting an entire continent on fire and murdering thousands because boy howdy ONLY YOU deserve to be able to rule it.

Neither situation is good. But dictatorships are ALSO never good, and throwing out one corrupt system in favor of another corrupt system with yourself at the head isn't noble and it isn't admirable, especially if you have to sacrifice thousands of innocent lives to get there.

There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
I dunno, she was all of like... 6 at the time. Dimitri thinking she personally orchestrated the tragedy was always kinda dumb. I think that if you could get her on board with trusting Claude the two of them could conceivably bring Dimitri around. He's still sweet on Edelgard, and having Claude as a... third party voice of reason would probably carry the rest.
Yes, it's 100% clear that she wasn't part of the Tragedy of Duscur, or even Remire for that matter. Dimitri even basically admits this once he snaps out of his rage. I'm not saying it's impossible for this hurdle to be cleared, but it'd involve the most writing around, if you wanted to get that conversation out of the way *before* Edelgard attacks the church.

Ultimately, no matter what, a perfect route actually involves the other two lords believing that Edelgard is right, so I'm not sure how you get rid of the crests without attacking the church.

The point I was making is that there is a difference between building an empire gradually over hundreds of years vs. literally setting an entire continent on fire and murdering thousands because boy howdy ONLY YOU deserve to be able to rule it.

Neither situation is good. But dictatorships are ALSO never good, and throwing out one corrupt system in favor of another corrupt system with yourself at the head isn't noble and it isn't admirable, especially if you have to sacrifice thousands of innocent lives to get there.

There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
My only problem with this read is that I feel like you're just kind of filling the gaps with stuff that isn't stated. In this fantasy game world, all of the endings are "good", with the only bad thing being that you had to kill your friends. Dimitri's route essentially ends up with a new-generation dictatorship as well, with Dimitri controlling the entire continent of Fodlan, and there isn't even mention of him removing the noblility or the crest system. You just have to trust that he was a benevolent dictator... which is the same conclusion they ask you to reach with Edelgard.
 

Terraforce

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,890
Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
Yeah both Dimitri and Claude even state as much.

The bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.

Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
Okay that part confused me a bit. So Claude really did betray Dimitri in the BL route? So it wasn't until you actually save him that he has a change of heart?
 

deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,228
The interesting thing with Edlegard, is she kind of reminds of Dany in Game of Thrones- sort of a grey, potentially violent character that can be influenced by her peers. With Byleth at her side (Dany's version of Jorah and Missandei) she is more balanced, fair, cares for her people/friends, however still determined and calculated to see her route through and makes some moral compromises but for a bigger good which she generally wants to (and does accomplish), even if she needs to change the world (and make a lot of enemies out of former friends) to do it. She will do what she must, but mercy will also be shown where warranted.

If Byleth rejects her though, (just like Dany loses Jorah/Missandei) without that loving guidance/friendship/mentorship she pretty much becomes a genocidal monster. Still doing the greater good in her own mind, but she is taking things to unspeakable levels, and becomes a rabid dog that must be put down.
 

Terraforce

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,890
The point I was making is that there is a difference between building an empire gradually over hundreds of years vs. literally setting an entire continent on fire and murdering thousands because boy howdy ONLY YOU deserve to be able to rule it.

Neither situation is good. But dictatorships are ALSO never good, and throwing out one corrupt system in favor of another corrupt system with yourself at the head isn't noble and it isn't admirable, especially if you have to sacrifice thousands of innocent lives to get there.

There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
I think Claude's ending is the closest to a "good" end.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
Petra "solo" pairing:
"Petra returned to her homeland of Brigid and inherited the throne from her grandfather. As ruler, she declared independence from Fódlan and worked tirelessly to secure friendly relations with both Fódlan and Dagda."

Other pairings have a similar take (even more positive actually).

So basically the "new-generation dictatorship" allowed Brigid it's independence. Not bad heh.
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,162
I'd say merely believing a dictatorship is the solution to reform a corrupt society is very flawed. Especially when the other paths expose the hundreds of lives she's sacrificed and the mental and emotional turmoil she causes many characters to endure. She's very much an "ends justify the means" kind of character which I think is a terribly flawed way to go about forcing people to unite under her banner. Just as Rhea's rule wasn't "harmony," neither is this forced subjugation. I don't know how it wouldn't backfire due to social unrest.
She doesn't "merely" institute a dictatorships - hell, she flattens the class structure. We don't know a ton about the actual structure of the government she institutes at the end, but unless you're a noble it's pretty clearly laid out that it's a huge step up, and it's definitely not a hereditary dictatorship so it's at bare minimum a big step up. There's also massive dissatisfaction even amongst the noble classes with the current system, as evidenced by like... half of the support dialogues in the game. It's not hard to see how it works out.

Besides, I don't think anybody wants to bring in "oh, but what about the possible negative outcomes of the ending that the game doesn't mention," because man I have some bad news about Claude's ideas.

Yes, it's 100% clear that she wasn't part of the Tragedy of Duscur, or even Remire for that matter. Dimitri even basically admits this once he snaps out of his rage. I'm not saying it's impossible for this hurdle to be cleared, but it'd involve the most writing around, if you wanted to get that conversation out of the way *before* Edelgard attacks the church.

Ultimately, no matter what, a perfect route actually involves the other two lords believing that Edelgard is right, so I'm not sure how you get rid of the crests without attacking the church.
I would agree that there isn't a way to do this without a war breaking out, but that does sorta lend credibility to Edelgard's position. Maybe if Byleth told Rhea that Sothis was alive in his head she'd just fly off, but considering Edelgard is hellbent on blowing up the crests I doubt it.

Ultimately, Dimitri doesn't seem to be firmly committed to the Church, and Claude is openly questioning it. I think that the latter could be brought on board with Edelgard more generally, and the former could be convinced by offering the opportunity to kill the people who actually caused the Duscur Massacre.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
Yeah both Dimitri and Claude even state as much.


Okay that part confused me a bit. So Claude really did betray Dimitri in the BL route? So it wasn't until you actually save him that he has a change of heart?
No, I don't think he actually betrays Dimitri. I was just saying that had Byleth not showed up, Claude probably would have peaced-out since he probably wouldn't have been able to deal with a rage fueled dimitri (Byleth isn't there to calm him down) and he wouldn't have had Byleth on his side to truly turn the tide of war. He would have just dipped, which is what he does int he prologue.
 

Spine Crawler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,262
Claude comes from the weakest territory that he isnt even the sovereign of, just the leader. If he didnt make his image like that people would just run over him.
claude has the potential to rally the most fearsome army. with alliance and almyra combined he would easily topple the kingdom, the knights of seiros and the adrestian empire
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
Ironically, dimitri's route has an interestingly sympathetic take on Edelgard when they decide to meet and talk before the battle. Edelgard tells dimitri that he's sacrificing the future for the present, while Dimitri tells her she's sacrificing the present for the future. Neither are wrong, but their ideologies are opposed, so they agree that they have to fight. I actually enjoyed that scene, even if I wish Edelgard was like "yo hey have you *seen* them crests"
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,909
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
One ending has Fodlan ruled by an Empress with a clear will to leave her power behind, others have Fodlan still in control of the crest system. No matter what name the king/queen or new archbishop has, Edelgard's "tyranny" has a clear expiry date, the crests are permanent and will continue haunting Fodlan even after Claude and Byleth are gone.

And with what people are willing to do for crests and to people who don't have them, i just can't see Edelgard's ending being worse than the others.

Yes, it's 100% clear that she wasn't part of the Tragedy of Duscur, or even Remire for that matter. Dimitri even basically admits this once he snaps out of his rage. I'm not saying it's impossible for this hurdle to be cleared, but it'd involve the most writing around, if you wanted to get that conversation out of the way *before* Edelgard attacks the church.

Ultimately, no matter what, a perfect route actually involves the other two lords believing that Edelgard is right, so I'm not sure how you get rid of the crests without attacking the church.
Even if Dimitri was talked into believing Edelgard, would the kingdom's lord follow their king? Claude i can see rallying the alliance's nobles behind him for this ... not so sure about the kingdom's lords.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
30,085
One ending has Fodlan ruled by an Empress with a clear will to leave her power behind, others have Fodlan still in control of the crest system. No matter what name the king/queen or new archbishop has, Edelgard's "tyranny" has a clear expiry date, the crests are permanent and will continue haunting Fodlan even after Claude and Byleth are gone.

And with what people are willing to do for crests and to people who don't have them, i just can't see Edelgard's ending being worse than the others.
Great. So when Edel runs away because she's sick of being queen, the next power-hungry tyrant will swoop in and drive the nation into chaos all over again.

Dictatorships are not a positive end state for a setting. No matter how noble you might be, no matter how well-intentioned, you can't control how your successor turns out. We've seen it so many times throughout history and literature.
 

SolVanderlyn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,364
I made this. Golden Deer players, please tell me if my reading is wrong, as I only know about that route from spoilers and hearsay.

 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
One ending has Fodlan ruled by an Empress with a clear will to leave her power behind, others have Fodlan still in control of the crest system. No matter what name the king/queen or new archbishop has, Edelgard's "tyranny" has a clear expiry date, the crests are permanent and will continue haunting Fodlan even after Claude and Byleth are gone.

And with what people are willing to do for crests and to people who don't have them, i just can't see Edelgard's ending being worse than the others.



Even if Dimitri was talked into believing Edelgard, would the kingdom's lord follow their king? Claude i can see rallying the alliance's nobles behind him for this ... not so sure about the kingdom's lords.
So, my super off-the-cuff, top of my head fanfiction for this route would be that they all share intel *before* edelgard's invasion and ultimately convince dimitri and edelgard to chill out and confront Rhea about the current system. They do, Rhea flips and goes dragon mode, which they have to fight, until Rhea finally realizes that Byleth *is* Sothis now and starts to back off. But during this confusion, Thales would infiltrate the church and start to cause something *really bad* to happen, like raising some kind of evil army or something or getting those magic missiles ready. Byleth would use his newfound god powers to seal himself, flayn, and Rhea in the church away from Thales - causing himself to go to sleep for five years while the other three countries are now thrust into a continent-wide war with this newfound "evil" army. The lords manage to unseal him after five years, but now the continent is fucked up by TWSID and you have to mount some kind of counter attack.

Look, it's all I got right now and it probably sucks.
 

Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,162
Great. So when Edel runs away because she's sick of being queen, the next power-hungry tyrant will swoop in and drive the nation into chaos all over again.

Dictatorships are not a positive end state for a setting. No matter how noble you might be, no matter how well-intentioned, you can't control how your successor turns out. We've seen it so many times throughout history and literature.
Are hereditary monarchies a positive end?

Because uh

That's the opposite option, here. There isn't a Democracy Ending. Edelgard flattening the class structure to create her meritocracy adds an important element that could eventually become democracy - the idea that every citizen is important. A serf isn't a serf if they can study real hard and become Emperor, it's a total rejection of a core element of the political systems that previously existed.
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,909
Great. So when Edel runs away because she's sick of being queen, the next power-hungry tyrant will swoop in and drive the nation into chaos all over again.

Dictatorships are not a positive end state for a setting. No matter how noble you might be, no matter how well-intentioned, you can't control how your successor turns out. We've seen it so many times throughout history and literature.
The same can be applied to Claude and Byleth, though. ;D

If Byleth has an offspring, who guarantees that they're not turning into Jugdral's Julius? Remember, dragon blood, insanity ... and so on.

And Claude, he leaves Fodlan, wants peace ... does Almyra want that too? Will his possible offspring want that?

Even if Edelgard's successor becomes a tyrant, it's still a mortal tyrant and not a dragon god that controls the vital forces by literal blood magic. ^^
 

Psychonaut

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,992
Miami
On a meta level, I wonder how a thread like this will play out considering there are spoilers for each route, so the only folks in the clear are those who've finished all four.

I've played through GD and BL, currently pre-skip in BE. I'm simultaneously glad and disappointed that I went with the Deer right off the bat. They have a far more interesting group and their story fleshes out more of the lore of those who slither. That's great because I got a lot of answers in my first play through. Blue Lions pales in comparison as a results, seeing as the slitherers are entirely absent and the only new lore bits (regarding Dimitri and Edelgard's relationship) don't bear any fruit anyway as we don't see the truth of their mother in that route. So, story-wise, Blue Lions is probably a better starting point than GD.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
In regards to the opening mission....I kinda assumed Edelgard wouldn't really have died (because she's got super crest power hidden away, given her potentially altered stats when you face her in chapter 11), and/or TWSITD were willing to have her taken care of and insert the uncle as a puppet emperor because they knew the Flame Emperor wasn't really on 'their side', so to speak.

That, or Edelgard just....really goofed.

Otherwise, while I do think that using Byleth as a 'moderating force' to help the lords not go full-on crazy/be their worst selves (or at least Dimitri and Edelgard, less so Claude), while a cool concept, feels a bit hokey - because without them, Edelgard really does feel like a 'villain' that IS realized people might want to play as, and thus, something changed in development to start the Crimson Flower route. The fact that she directly dies by the player's hands in 2 routes (and is killed by Dedue later in GD if you spare her, IIRC), is not really a 'balanced' look.


Crimson Flower route, with the entire lack of TWSITD being dealt with on-screen, lacking of any cutscene for the timeskip, having the Empire somehow 'NOT' be in control of Fodlan (when they dominate the other routes) is IMO clearly rushed/unfinished, but whether that's because they didn't want Edelgard to have a 'perfect' (or near to it) route, and/or some other reason I don't know. I really agree with whoever had the bit about the other houses joining up with Edelgard seeming hilariously dumb - especially Mercedes, and to a lesser extent, Ingrid.

There's also little bits of the game clearly going through revisions like GD re-using the Edel death cutscene from church route, etc...which makes me wish IS had a bit more time.


I do wish that IS had spent a biiiiiit more time on making Edel more sympathetic and letting Byleth know of her plans, somehow in the BE pre-time-skip sections - as is, the 'kill/protect' Edelgard moment feels so ridiculously 'on the spot' and arbitrary/binding.

The C+ support and Edel's general 'uwu' moments pre-time-skip are good at creating a bond of sorts (and holy hell does the 'uwu' get expanded upon post time-skip, what with the re-introduction bit and the portrait stuff), but IMO don't really make her actual plans any less 'bad', optics-wise.
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,909
So, my super off-the-cuff, top of my head fanfiction for this route would be that they all share intel *before* edelgard's invasion and ultimately convince dimitri and edelgard to chill out and confront Rhea about the current system. They do, Rhea flips and goes dragon mode, which they have to fight, until Rhea finally realizes that Byleth *is* Sothis now and starts to back off. But during this confusion, Thales would infiltrate the church and start to cause something *really bad* to happen, like raising some kind of evil army or something or getting those magic missiles ready. Byleth would use his newfound god powers to seal himself, flayn, and Rhea in the church away from Thales - causing himself to go to sleep for five years while the other three countries are now thrust into a continent-wide war with this newfound "evil" army. The lords manage to unseal him after five years, but now the continent is fucked up by TWSID and you have to mount some kind of counter attack.

Look, it's all I got right now and it probably sucks.
Yeah i think Agartha and TWSID should have been more fleshed out in all routes. And it absolutely should've been a part of Edelgard's route ... and not have them "dealt with" by Hubert in a credits scene ...
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,925
Barcelona
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
We can agree that Edelgard is ruthless and doesn't care that much about any sacrifice while achieving her goal, but:

-She erases the nobility system and so gives opportunity to talented people
-Brigid achieves a better relation with the Empire and more freedom
-She will be gone soon (she will die young, the same as Lysithea) so her personal gain is not that important
-The "bad guys" are erradicated (I mean her uncle and the others)
-The church that controls the continent (or so it seems in the Crimson Flower route) is also defeated

Rhea seems clearly evil in this route, she seems to implant a crest in Byleth's heart and acts like a crazy psycopath (the last chapter is a burning city, dozens of citizens die because she thinks that fire will help to slow Edel's troops). Byleth's lack of emotions seems to be her fault too.

I can imagine that Edel is portrayed as evil in the other routes, and it's easy to see how they can do this, but Rhea seems to be evil in the 4 routes, or at least seems to be obsessed with Sothis and lacking any empathy, so the ending of Edel's route seems to be "a better world after a big human sacrifice". In fact, you don't even need to kill Claude, and Dimitri's death is mostly related at him snapping and going too rabid against Edel.

I need to experience the other routes, but I do think that Edel's motives are easy to understand as she knows the truth behind the church and was a victim (she and her brothers/sisters) of the crest/class system.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,596
In regards to the opening mission....I kinda assumed Edelgard wouldn't really have died (because she's got super crest power hidden away, given her potentially altered stats when you face her in chapter 11), and/or TWSITD were willing to have her taken care of and insert the uncle as a puppet emperor because they knew the Flame Emperor wasn't really on 'their side', so to speak.

That, or Edelgard just....really goofed.

Otherwise, while I do think that using Byleth as a 'moderating force' to help the lords not go full-on crazy/be their worst selves (or at least Dimitri and Edelgard, less so Claude), while a cool concept, feels a bit hokey - because without them, Edelgard really does feel like a 'villain' that IS realized people might want to play as, and thus, something changed in development to start the Crimson Flower route. The fact that she directly dies by the player's hands in 2 routes (and is killed by Dedue later in GD if you spare her, IIRC), is not really a 'balanced' look.


Crimson Flower route, with the entire lack of TWSITD being dealt with on-screen, lacking of any cutscene for the timeskip, having the Empire somehow 'NOT' be in control of Fodlan (when they dominate the other routes) is IMO clearly rushed/unfinished, but whether that's because they didn't want Edelgard to have a 'perfect' (or near to it) route, and/or some other reason I don't know. I really agree with whoever had the bit about the other houses joining up with Edelgard seeming hilariously dumb - especially Mercedes, and to a lesser extent, Ingrid.

There's also little bits of the game clearly going through revisions like GD re-using the Edel death cutscene from church route, etc...which makes me wish IS had a bit more time.


I do wish that IS had spent a biiiiiit more time on making Edel more sympathetic and letting Byleth know of her plans, somehow in the BE pre-time-skip sections - as is, the 'kill/protect' Edelgard moment feels so ridiculously 'on the spot' and arbitrary/binding.

The C+ support and Edel's general 'uwu' moments pre-time-skip are good at creating a bond of sorts (and holy hell does the 'uwu' get expanded upon post time-skip, what with the re-introduction bit and the portrait stuff), but IMO don't really make her actual plans any less 'bad', optics-wise.

Wait you can spare her in GD? That woudlnt make sense because
Claude trlls her to surrender not once but twice and she refuses. Additionally Dedue can die in that battle and he died on my run so if i were to spare her no one would finish her off
 

NSESN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
People ignore that people will harbor hatred towards the empire and Edelgards because the way she did things. Sure crests are gone, but good luck erasing all of the bad things she did in the minds of the people because that will eventually make people revolt and try to be independent again.
Edelgard's ending will eventually lead to more wars, unless she massacres everyone that dislikes the empire, but then she becomes the exact thing she hates, Rhea
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,525
Blue Lions pales in comparison as a results, seeing as the slitherers are entirely absent and the only new lore bits (regarding Dimitri and Edelgard's relationship) don't bear any fruit anyway as we don't see the truth of their mother in that route.
Wild take.

I think people tend to overestimate TWISTED's importance to the plot (yeah, that acronym is easier to write :p). Probably because they played GD first (or prefer GD as a route period), or because they are used to the "hidden villain" trope (the series arguably has been abusing for decades). But that's not the point.

Simply, the fact they only show up significantly in one route could be taken as an indication that, while they're important actors to this world, they may not be this "truest evil" they may seem to be at first glance (especially as they show up quite a bit in part one), and just another problem to be solved in the messy world of Fodlan.

As I said, wild take.
 
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Poodlestrike

There is much talk, and I have listened...
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,162
So, my super off-the-cuff, top of my head fanfiction for this route would be that they all share intel *before* edelgard's invasion and ultimately convince dimitri and edelgard to chill out and confront Rhea about the current system. They do, Rhea flips and goes dragon mode, which they have to fight, until Rhea finally realizes that Byleth *is* Sothis now and starts to back off. But during this confusion, Thales would infiltrate the church and start to cause something *really bad* to happen, like raising some kind of evil army or something or getting those magic missiles ready. Byleth would use his newfound god powers to seal himself, flayn, and Rhea in the church away from Thales - causing himself to go to sleep for five years while the other three countries are now thrust into a continent-wide war with this newfound "evil" army. The lords manage to unseal him after five years, but now the continent is fucked up by TWSID and you have to mount some kind of counter attack.

Look, it's all I got right now and it probably sucks.
I've got an idea but it's more set up as a sequel tease/interquel route rather than a full story by itself.

So it's like this:
Very early on, before you even choose a House (but after you've reached the Monastery), Byleth gets a message from the future in the form of... themselves. Some future Byleth shows up, massively powerful, full of the knowledge of all 4 routes, and dying. They're babbling on about some threat from the future, something they couldn't figure out how to fight. They pass on knowledge of how each route went, but things get fuzzy, so you don't get a sense of what did this to them. Then they pass.

So there you are, newly arrived, newly given a teaching gig, with 4 different sets of knowledge about how the next 6 years might go, and with a dead future version of yourself in your room. You then manage to finagle a new teaching arrangement where you split managing all 3 classes with the other 2 instructors, so you have access to the full class pool. I think that at that point what you have to do is bring in Hubert. Hubert is the one person Edelgard actually trusts, and he does not trust you, so if you want to change things you'll have to start there. You show him the body, there's a tense scene where you explain what happened, then he admits that this is too crazy to be fake. We know Hubert will go behind Edelgard's back if it means helping her goals, so you and him go to Claude and get him on board, then go to Edelgard herself. With the choice of trusting vs. not trusting anybody taken out of her hands, I think Edelgard will work with Claude to maximize her chances. Then you, Claude, and Edelgard goes to Dimitri and lay out what really happened with the Duscur Massacre. So you've got all three lords on board. Dimitri is going to insist that Edelgard immediately distance herself from Those who Slither, and an argument breaks out.

The thing is, while all this has been happening, Those who Slither have been watching. You've avoided Tomas, but that doesn't mean they didn't have other eyes in the monastery. They figure out what's going on (or at least that they can't rely on their control of Edelgard), and move to cut Edelgard out of the succession by killing her father and having her uncle take the throne, blaming her. Dimitri and Claude know the truth, but nobody else does. Edelgard is pissed, and insists they confront Rhea - because dammit, she's going to get something out of this. Rhea is happy that Sothis is alive in your head, but refuses to let Edelgard blow up the Crests. The entire confrontation is cut short as Those who Slither's empire assaults the monastery. Edelgard's manifesto is published, but it has Dimitri and Claude's names on it as well. Huge portions of their territory declare open revolt, the parts that don't defect to the Empire as Those who Slither's agents activate. The three houses escape the monastery, Rhea flies off, roll end credits and get ready for Three Houses 2, where you have to deal with Those who Slither, the rebellious territories, and whatever the hell killed Future Byleth.

Congrats, all three lords are buddies now, except they kind of hate each other (Dimitri's still pissed about Duscur, Edelgard's pissed about losing the Empire, and Claude is pissed he's involved in this shit at all), and the world is on fire!
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,356
-She will be gone soon (she will die young, the same as Lysithea) so her personal gain is not that important
this is admittedly a point I think some people 'miss' - especially in the context of her needing to act 'now' (or at least, before she meets Byleth)

but Rhea seems to be evil in the 4 routes, or at least seems to be obsessed with Sothis and lacking any empathy, so the ending of Edel's route seems to be "a better world after a big human sacrifice"
Rhea mellows somewhat in church/GD route - not fully, but it's kind of explained that she has a split personality of sorts with Seiros/rhea sides of her.

Wait you can spare her in GD? That woudlnt make sense because
Claude trlls her to surrender not once but twice and she refuses. Additionally Dedue can die in that battle and he died on my run so if i were to spare her no one would finish her off
To be fair, I believe I've only read that one being possible (haven't played GD yet) - I could be remembering wrong, and/or it doesn't happen.

but good luck erasing all of the bad things she did in the minds of the people because that will eventually make people revolt and try to be independent again.
Everything from her route suggests the populace is with her, due to the manifesto she releases, in addition to the epilogue pointing out all of the 'good stuff' she does for the commonfolk like moving away from the crests = lording over others, free public education, etc....

It's a mixture of 'history is written by the victors' and 'the game goes out of its way to show how 'good' your house/route is' compared to the other houses/forces.


I do think it's interesting in that Edelgard's 'truth' of what the Emperor passed down about Rhea/Seiros is admittedly hella biased, and likely influenced by TWSITD to a huge degree - which, unfortunately, forms a lot of basis for her crusade against crests/the church.

Especially when it was TWSITD, not Rhea, who kidnapped her and killed off all her siblings.
 

NSESN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
this is admittedly a point I think some people 'miss' - especially in the context of her needing to act 'now' (or at least, before she meets Byleth)



Rhea mellows somewhat in church/GD route - not fully, but it's kind of explained that she has a split personality of sorts with Seiros/rhea sides of her.



To be fair, I believe I've only read that one being possible (haven't played GD yet) - I could be remembering wrong, and/or it doesn't happen.



Everything from her route suggests the populace is with her, due to the manifesto she releases, in addition to the epilogue pointing out all of the 'good stuff' she does for the commonfolk like moving away from the crests = lording over others, free public education, etc....

It's a mixture of 'history is written by the victors' and 'the game goes out of its way to show how 'good' your house/route is' compared to the other houses/forces.


I do think it's interesting in that Edelgard's 'truth' of what the Emperor passed down about Rhea/Seiros is admittedly hella biased, and likely influenced by TWSITD to a huge degree - which, unfortunately, forms a lot of basis for her crusade against crests/the church.

Especially when it was TWSITD, not Rhea, who kidnapped her and killed off all her siblings.
The populace is with whatever Byleth chooses, and even then I doubt everyone sides with her, specially in the other 2 countires
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,804
I think people saying that Edelgard would be too unwilling to team up with Dimitri and Claude kind of comes back to the fact that she was just poorly written as a villain.

As I said previously, Dimitri and Claude were pretty much the same personality-wise whether you went through their route or not. Edelgard for some reason stops being more strategic and caring of others when you don't go her route, and instead is just "WAR! WAR! WAR!" It's even worse when you consider that while Edelgard's route works to unite Fodlan and remove corruption, something Dimitri was also hoping to do, Dimitri's route doesn't even deal with the problems of the Church or Those Who Slither in the Dark, and Claude takes out TWSITD after Dimitri and Edelgard pretty much kill each other.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,596
-She erases the nobility system and so gives opportunity to talented people
-Brigid achieves a better relation with the Empire and more freedom
-She will be gone soon (she will die young, the same as Lysithea) so her personal gain is not that important
-The "bad guys" are erradicated (I mean her uncle and the others)
-The church that controls the continent (or so it seems in the Crimson Flower route) is also defeated

Rhea seems clearly evil in this route, she seems to implant a crest in Byleth's heart and acts like a crazy psycopath (the last chapter is a burning city, dozens of citizens die because she thinks that fire will help to slow Edel's troops). Byleth's lack of emotions seems to be her fault too.
Byleth is Rhea fault yes but thats because of a complelty different reason to what you are thinking​

Why byleth spoiler. Dont read if you want to discover youeself​
byleth was a stillborn baby abd her mother was a failed experiment. She had the crest implated as her hearth but she didnt awaken sothis. She lived a normal life besides the crest thing, married Jeralt and had a child with him. When giving birth she begged rhea to save Byleth and the only thing she could do was to remove the crest (killing the mother) snd putting it in Byleth chest. If it wasnt for her Byleth wouldnt be alive.

Also re:results of Edel campaing. She is not the only one that aims for all that

Btw The story doenst change before ch 11. All actors do the same thing regardless of which house you choose which means both edel and rhea act the same on all routes up to ch 11.