You are the one reducing now. The church route isnt like thatIt makes me actively not looking forward to the church route and seeing all these complex characters be reduced to "we need to stop her because war is bad".
You are the one reducing now. The church route isnt like thatIt makes me actively not looking forward to the church route and seeing all these complex characters be reduced to "we need to stop her because war is bad".
If they somehow manage to redeem nemesis then I'mma raise my hat because damn they make that fucker look like a filthy monster. I mean they did it with Edelgard and Rhea too but them making some justification for him going into Sothis tomb, killing her and then using her bones and blood to make super weapons would be some work.The last thing the game needs is a "golden" route. Talk about missing the point...
Personally, I'm hoping that the DLC campaign is a prequel that lets you choose between siding with Seiros or Nemesis, showing the conflict from both sides and leaving you to make your own conclusions as to who the "bad guy" really was.
The game opens with Edelgard's attempt to assassinate her fellow class leaders. Things were doomed long before Byleth even met them.I just really seriously disagree. I think that the nature of the conflict is such that if you created the circumstances for it, bringing all three leaders together is totally doable - and so long as it's not a perfect end, I think that it wouldn't
Her ideals doesnt change, I am talking about her actions. Byleth has a big impact on themI would strongly disagree with this take. She basically falls over herself pre-timeskip talking about how her goals are different from Those who Slither. She's clearly got larger plans, and there's no indication at all that her ideas about class come from Byleth.
Ehhhh I could write them getting over that without too much difficulty. Again, their differences and flaws and, yes, Edelgard's actions present an obstacle - but not an insurmountable one absent outside interference.The game opens with Edelgard's attempt to assassinate her fellow class leaders. Things were doomed long before Byleth even met them.
Her ideals doesnt change, I am talking about her actions. Byleth has a big impact on them
Uhhhhh yes you were.For people who played routes other than Black Eagles, I also don't think they did Edelgard's character justice. The other two lords retain their personality characteristics and values in routes that aren't their own, but Edelgard in the routes that aren't her own ends up being this person who just wants to conquer and nothing else. I don't even think she mentions changing the status quo even once in the Blue Lions route.
Until we actually see Nemesis do that, nothing is certain.If they somehow manage to redeem nemesis then I'mma raise my hat because damn they make that fucker look like a filthy monster. I mean they did it with Edelgard and Rhea too but them making some justification for him going into Sothis tomb, killing her and then using her bones and blood to make super weapons would be some work.
She not mentioning her ideals doesnt mean that they are different, meanwhile Edelgard acts very different if Byleth sides with her.Ehhhh I could write them getting over that without too much difficulty. Again, their differences and flaws and, yes, Edelgard's actions present an obstacle - but not an insurmountable one absent outside interference.
Uhhhhh yes you were.
The point being made was that it's reductionist - Claude and Dimitri have similar goals and take dissimilar actions, but Edelgard doesn't really get into why she does what she does outside of a few hugely reduced bits. Claude is the most consistent, I think, Dimitri looks the worst in his route, Edelgard looks the worst in all the others, but while the other two are very clear on why they do the things they do, Edelgard basically ends up playing the generic conqueror even though we know that there's more to it.She not mentioning her ideals doesnt mean that they are different, meanwhile Edelgard acts very different if Byleth sides with her.
And Rhea acts very different if Byleth sides with her. Your point being?She not mentioning her ideals doesnt mean that they are different, meanwhile Edelgard acts very different if Byleth sides with her.
Edelgard has a very different way of going about doing things in other routes, that's true. But I think that the meritocracy thing is an unfair hit. A big part of what her plans entail is equalizing things, helping people who need it through stuff like free education. She's talking about the nobility, relying on the service of others
The only reasons to side with her is basically to see what happens or that if you find her cute.
As to the first, I would agree that she'll need a replacement for the church - but she also agrees with that, in her supports. I don't see any reason to think she wouldn't also plan to eventually have that replacement in other routes, unless there's something I've missed. Hell, I think the replacement might just be the church, just without Rhea and with some doctrinal updates. As to the second... Well, now we're dealing with the real world implications of the fantasy world policy. I agree completely that meritocracy as a system generally fosters corruption and nepotism and other bad things, but on the flip side, it's kind of ridiculous to say that she should know that. And hey, maybe the "genius researcher with lots of vacay" thing is just policy anybody who can get up to Lin-tier brilliance gets. It's a job you can secure in our world right now.Free education is a great place to start, but it's primarily her rhetoric that has me concerned about the motivations behind her planned policies. She's violently crushing systems of emotional support for many people without any immediate replacements in sight, and as a result there will be many people feeling lost, helpless and weak in the world she creates. There's also a great deal of potential for corruption and nepotism, something I'd argue Edelgard veers dangerously close to with Linhardt. She promises him a cushy job with unlimited vacation time and the right to research whatever he wants. That's an opportunity I don't imagine many of the people who aren't personal friends with Edelgard are going to find themselves afforded.
Never got her A support, but plan to now that I have more time in Silver Snow. Guessing from her B support, I'd bet it's adoptive father issues more than anything.with Marianne, after her A support, dont you get the impression that shes not truly religious?
As to the first, I would agree that she'll need a replacement for the church - but she also agrees with that, in her supports. I don't see any reason to think she wouldn't also plan to eventually have that replacement in other routes, unless there's something I've missed. Hell, I think the replacement might just be the church, just without Rhea and with some doctrinal updates. As to the second... Well, now we're dealing with the real world implications of the fantasy world policy. I agree completely that meritocracy as a system generally fosters corruption and nepotism and other bad things, but on the flip side, it's kind of ridiculous to say that she should know that. And hey, maybe the "genius researcher with lots of vacay" thing is just policy anybody who can get up to Lin-tier brilliance gets. It's a job you can secure in our world right now.
All of that's to say, cast plenty of aspersion on her actions, but I don't really see a good reason to question her motives for doing it. All her ideas are foundational to the character, and set before Byleth even enters the story.
The vibe I got off Marianne was always more that she was desperately trying to pray away her Crest (or, to be more precise, the self-loathing that came with her Crest) but that she wasn't really a believer . She just felt like she was out of options other than divine assistance.
This game deffo likes daddy issues.Never got her A support, but plan to now that I have more time in Silver Snow. Guessing from her B support, I'd bet it's adoptive father issues more than anything.
Shitty fathers seems to be the running theme for a lot of supports, now that I think about it.
I mean, even before that - she's not exactly exuding a peaceful, comforted atmosphere when she's in the cathedral like, say, Mercedes does.
I am talking about how the other routes dont make edelgard any disserviceAnd Rhea acts very different if Byleth sides with her. Your point being?
Marianne's explanation of her prayers came off far more morbid than just removing her crest
Yea I know, that's why I was questioning the earlier responses, guess I wasnt clear about thatShe straight out tells you in the A support that she wanted to die. But due to your help she now has hope for the future.
That's part of Edelgard's character I've come to respect. She thinks she knows what's right for everyone, but the other routes expose how inherently flawed her ideology is. On a macroscale her plan is fine I guess. But once you take more than a passing glance at it you see how nonsense it is. She's intentionally a very flawed character.Edelgard is trying so damn hard to be Delita or Jowy and she's just nowhere near as good at it as either of them were. At least they both knew they were pieces of shit.
Her reincarnation.
It's ... complicated.
Pretty sure it's literally just her. In Church route all she says is "I am Seiros"
IIRC, his B(?) support (BE route recruit, if that changes anything) makes it pretty clear he resents what happened to his brother, and points his ire at the whole crest nobility bullshit.Going from his supports, I think Sylvain has a pretty clear motive to oppose the Crest system, even if he doesn't necessarily articulate that in the main story.
As others have said, she's literally Seiros
That's part of Edelgard's character I've come to respect. She thinks she knows what's right for everyone, but the other routes expose how inherently flawed her ideology is. On a macroscale her plan is fine I guess. But once you take more than a passing glance at it you see how nonsense it is. She's intentionally a very flawed character.
That's part of Edelgard's character I've come to respect. She thinks she knows what's right for everyone, but the other routes expose how inherently flawed her ideology is. On a macroscale her plan is fine I guess. But once you take more than a passing glance at it you see how nonsense it is. She's intentionally a very flawed character.
I believe going after Rhea, inside the monastery, would be way harder than going after the "little girl"What i don't really understand ... maybe because i've not seen/read everything about it ... but Jeralt is literally over 100 years old. Outside of Seteth, Flayn and Rhea ... how did this not raise questions to begin with? Solon for example was at Garreg Mach long enough to might have been able to notice this.
Which ... btw. is funny. We know he's after Flayn because of her blood. But Rhea should have the same blood, and so should Jeralt.
Still, the other endings are flawed "Happy Endings" (i don't think there's a single happy ending really).
As long as the Crests exists, there will be people who will try to use them for their own advantage, no matter who's in charge of the church, and if there even is a church.
Basically, three endings leave the player like "Hope they don't fuck this up again".
Oh I haven't completed my Golden Deer run yet so that explains why. I just assumed that Rhea got taken over or something in her Black Eagles route.
I don't really think it is, though. Her ideology is fine unless you bring real world political science into it. Her methods are questionable, though I would argue less questionable than people think, given the history and perspectives involved, but that's distinct from her ideology. It's not like she prizes making hard choices, you really get the sense from a lot of her dialogue (and the Flame Emperor's) that she hates "having" to do this. But she's set on her course, so do them she must.That's part of Edelgard's character I've come to respect. She thinks she knows what's right for everyone, but the other routes expose how inherently flawed her ideology is. On a macroscale her plan is fine I guess. But once you take more than a passing glance at it you see how nonsense it is. She's intentionally a very flawed character.
Every route is designed as some form of tragedy, if only with regard to Edelgard's fate. Either she's killed when she was just someone who whished to defeat the big bad dragon (like, you know, pretty much every Fire Emblem hero did to this day). Or she manages to kill the big bad dragon, which, in fact, was an utterly traumatized individual which, no matter how brutal her crimes were, could probably have been redeemed if the circumstances were way different (like, way different) (*).Still, the other endings are flawed "Happy Endings" (i don't think there's a single happy ending really).
I simply ignore everyone that says "Edelgard did nothing wrong", they either didnt play other routes or they are trolling to make fans of other routes angrier.That's why it's so weird that fans have lined up to be like 'YUP SHE WAS RIGHT AND HER METHODS ARE JUSTIFIED', oftentimes before even playing any of the other paths but sometimes AFTER playing all of them.
Like, you can sympathize with a flawed villain and understand his or her motivations without immediately jumping to "SHE WAS RIGHT" territory. That's part of the reason why Suikoden II's story worked - the player understands WHY Jowy felt he had to take the route he did to free Highland, even if they disagree with his methods and spend the whole game wanting him to just see reason and step back from the edge of the abyss.
Just because she's really good in combat doesn't mean she's a good person. :|
I believe going after Rhea, inside the monastery, would be way harder than going after the "little girl"
As for Jeralt, maybe he wasn't a pure blood? Since Rhea just transfused enough to save him.
Oh I haven't completed my Golden Deer run yet so that explains why. I just assumed that Rhea got taken over or something in her Black Eagles route.
Of course she did some stuff that was wrong. We know that if she'd gone to Claude and maybe Dimitri, she wouldn't have had to launch a war on the rest of the continent (though I'm fairly convinced that war would've broken out anyway).I simply ignore everyone that says "Edelgard did nothing wrong", they either didnt play other routes or they are trolling to make fans of other routes angrier.
Edit: DP, I forgot this thread doesnt move as fast as the normal one
Well I think there is a difference between right and justified. I dont think she is right(maybe in her route only), but you can argue that she is justified because of her context.Of course she did some stuff that was wrong. We know that if she'd gone to Claude and maybe Dimitri, she wouldn't have had to launch a war on the rest of the continent (though I'm fairly convinced that war would've broken out anyway).
That's distinct from thinking she was right and justified, though, which is what PlanetSmasher said. I stand by that take.
I mean, the definition of a justified action is one that was the right thing to do. It could be an ugly necessity, but still. Unless you mean morally right, in which case, it's more route dependent.Well I think there is a difference between right and justified. I dont think she is right(maybe in her route only), but you can argue that she is justified because of her context.
How so? I could see the argument in the Church and Blue Lions routes, where you're siding with people who are first and foremost opposed to her, personally or ideologically, but if she wasn't so... well, driven, and frankly untrusting, she could've joined Claude in the Deer route as the token ruthless teammate. And in her own route she makes a fine protagonist.Edelgard as they wrote her only really works as the antagonist
This is true. I wonder what happened to them? Most likely killed for running away.Can't remember, but didn't Rhea said that the person who was going to be professor, the one that ran away, had been a suggestion of the Empire?
That whole (well, small) part is the one I can't really wrap my head-on.For me, it makes more sense than Edelgard building her plan of getting rid of Dimitri and Claude on "Don't get killed before the others". ^^