I cleared the Edelgard route and after the time skip she went way too Danaerys Targaryen for me to still really like her (but if you're into bloodthirsty self-righteous despots she may be your jam).
Phenomenal game though.
Phenomenal game though.
That reductive as hell. She's more than that.I cleared the Edelgard route and after the time skip she went way too Danaerys Targaryen for me to still really like her (but if you're into bloodthirsty self-righteous despots she may be your jam).
Phenomenal game though.
Curious about his route now, thanks.That reductive as hell. She's more than that.
That would be like me saying: If you are into depressed edgelords, Dimitri may be your jam.
Err, colonization (Earth history) is literally sending military troops to annex a land defended with inferior technological weaponry, AND pretend to do it for the sake of god's generosity (we gotta enlighten those primitives y'a know).Even the British Empire mostly got to where it was at its peak through colonization, NOT rapid military expansion filtered through a cult of personality.
the outcome...basically the same as the golden deer routeThe bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.
Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
That's so true it actually hurts lolThe bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.
Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
This is true. I wonder what happened to them? Most likely killed for running away.
Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
That whole (well, small) part is the one I can't really wrap my head-on.
The fact that's (IIRC) it's not touched upon later doesn't help obviously, but the whole plan hardly makes any sense.
I mean either it's a legit attempted murder and then it's like REALLY STUPID on her part as she almost got killed and litteraly only got saved by divine intervention. I mean why not. Plans don't always come together. But come on. Later in the game the same idiotic girl can kick Rhea out of her monastery? That's one hell of a stretch.
And if it was intended as a diversion then I don't see how Jeralt/Byleth changes much to the plan. She'd have planned to defeat the bandits anyway. So why didn't anyone attack the monastery?
It just makes no sense (except providing the mandatory "kill the bandits" first FE mission). Unless the diversion was so that they could infiltrate someone? But it's never explained so 🤷♀️
She's really not bloodthirsty in any reasonable take on her motives. She's willing to spill it if necessary, but that's pretty different.Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
Err, colonization (Earth history) is literally sending military troops to annex a land defended with inferior technological weaponry, AND pretend to do it for the sake of god's generosity (we gotta enlighten those primitives y'a know).
Plausible, I admit. But never really hinted by the game so 🤷♀️I imagine the timeframe for a hit on Rhea, Seteth or Flayn was short to begin with. I mean ... bunch of grunt brigands vs the Knight of Seiros lead by one of their commander, not really an even match. Edelgard might've stalled the encounter by moving further away from the Knights, which was not possible with Jeralt and Byleth facing them at Remire and thus allowing the Knights to catch up.
Maybe she even tried to seperate from Claude and Dimitri to either avoid her own death or to lead a possible strike on Garreg Mach as the Flame Emperor?
Claude comes from the weakest territory that he isnt even the sovereign of, just the leader. If he didnt make his image like that people would just run over him.
Plausible, I admit. But never really hinted by the game so 🤷♀️
I dunno, she was all of like... 6 at the time. Dimitri thinking she personally orchestrated the tragedy was always kinda dumb. I think that if you could get her on board with trusting Claude the two of them could conceivably bring Dimitri around. He's still sweet on Edelgard, and having Claude as a... third party voice of reason would probably carry the rest.The only hard part about getting them to team up would be convincing Dimitri that Edelgard was not a part of the Tragedy of Duscur and making Edelgard feel more remorse/frustration at having enabled them in the first place. You'd have to do some real ass-pull dialogue to get everyone to be fine with Edelgard being the flame emperor, but it's not like the game doesn't already do that with having a bunch of classmates join Edelgard in her route.
I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.I'm aware. Colonization wasn't good. But it's a different kind of scenario than "LET ME START A MASSIVE CONTINENT-WIDE WAR SO I CAN PERSONALLY RULE OVER THE ASHES AFTER IT'S OVER".
Her having a bit of Cincinnatus in her always made it hard for me to take too seriously the takes that she's just in it for power. I get that lots of people in the real world have started bloody conflicts for high minded reasons and then descended into regular totalitarianism, but she like... doesn't do that. The power and the violence really is just a means to an end, and the end is pretty good.I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.
And what you describe is a massive oversimplification.
In her "solo" ending:
"With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye."
Similar quotes can be found in most pairings (but not Byleth pairing, go figure).
A freaking Men to that, and good point on the Jowy comparison. Though tbf I think that's the fault of the player in a lot of cases because they went into the game wanting to like Edelgard. But it is mind boggling how black and white some people think this story is. So quick to say Edelgard is justified in everything or at least most of what she does simply because she wants to reform the system. Or that Rhea is objectively the villain here because of certain implications. Though this seems less prevalent of an opinion from people who have actually taken the time to complete multiple paths and not just the Edelgard option.That's why it's so weird that fans have lined up to be like 'YUP SHE WAS RIGHT AND HER METHODS ARE JUSTIFIED', oftentimes before even playing any of the other paths but sometimes AFTER playing all of them.
Like, you can sympathize with a flawed villain and understand his or her motivations without immediately jumping to "SHE WAS RIGHT" territory. That's part of the reason why Suikoden II's story worked - the player understands WHY Jowy felt he had to take the route he did to free Highland, even if they disagree with his methods and spend the whole game wanting him to just see reason and step back from the edge of the abyss.
Just because she's really good in combat doesn't mean she's a good person. :|
I'd say merely believing a dictatorship is the solution to reform a corrupt society is very flawed. Especially when the other paths expose the hundreds of lives she's sacrificed and the mental and emotional turmoil she causes many characters to endure. She's very much an "ends justify the means" kind of character which I think is a terribly flawed way to go about forcing people to unite under her banner. Just as Rhea's rule wasn't "harmony," neither is this forced subjugation. I don't know how it wouldn't backfire due to social unrest.I don't really think it is, though. Her ideology is fine unless you bring real world political science into it. Her methods are questionable, though I would argue less questionable than people think, given the history and perspectives involved, but that's distinct from her ideology. It's not like she prizes making hard choices, you really get the sense from a lot of her dialogue (and the Flame Emperor's) that she hates "having" to do this. But she's set on her course, so do them she must.
I think people overvalue "peace" in a setting like this. Rhea/Seiros' peace isn't like... harmony. It's stasis, or worse. Generations of people ground down under strict bloodline rule so an ancient dragon can try over and over to bring back her mother. That's not a peace worth fighting for.
I dunno you're the one that brought up colonization.
And what you describe is a massive oversimplification.
In her "solo" ending:
"With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye."
Similar quotes can be found in most pairings (but not Byleth pairing, go figure).
I dunno, she was all of like... 6 at the time. Dimitri thinking she personally orchestrated the tragedy was always kinda dumb. I think that if you could get her on board with trusting Claude the two of them could conceivably bring Dimitri around. He's still sweet on Edelgard, and having Claude as a... third party voice of reason would probably carry the rest.
The point I was making is that there is a difference between building an empire gradually over hundreds of years vs. literally setting an entire continent on fire and murdering thousands because boy howdy ONLY YOU deserve to be able to rule it.
Neither situation is good. But dictatorships are ALSO never good, and throwing out one corrupt system in favor of another corrupt system with yourself at the head isn't noble and it isn't admirable, especially if you have to sacrifice thousands of innocent lives to get there.
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
Yeah both Dimitri and Claude even state as much.Edelgard is way too driven(for blood) and uncompromising to ever work with Dimitri/Claude or Rhea. I just can't see it.
Okay that part confused me a bit. So Claude really did betray Dimitri in the BL route? So it wasn't until you actually save him that he has a change of heart?The bandit mission is super contrived. That said, it's kind of a good indication of what would have happened in this game had Byleth not shown up.
Edelgard's ambition and planning likely would have backfired and gotten her killed, Dimitri would have naively trusted that Claude was creating a diversion and ended up betrayed and killed, and Claude would have run away and let the other two lords get killed lol.
I think Claude's ending is the closest to a "good" end.The point I was making is that there is a difference between building an empire gradually over hundreds of years vs. literally setting an entire continent on fire and murdering thousands because boy howdy ONLY YOU deserve to be able to rule it.
Neither situation is good. But dictatorships are ALSO never good, and throwing out one corrupt system in favor of another corrupt system with yourself at the head isn't noble and it isn't admirable, especially if you have to sacrifice thousands of innocent lives to get there.
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
Petra "solo" pairing:There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
She doesn't "merely" institute a dictatorships - hell, she flattens the class structure. We don't know a ton about the actual structure of the government she institutes at the end, but unless you're a noble it's pretty clearly laid out that it's a huge step up, and it's definitely not a hereditary dictatorship so it's at bare minimum a big step up. There's also massive dissatisfaction even amongst the noble classes with the current system, as evidenced by like... half of the support dialogues in the game. It's not hard to see how it works out.I'd say merely believing a dictatorship is the solution to reform a corrupt society is very flawed. Especially when the other paths expose the hundreds of lives she's sacrificed and the mental and emotional turmoil she causes many characters to endure. She's very much an "ends justify the means" kind of character which I think is a terribly flawed way to go about forcing people to unite under her banner. Just as Rhea's rule wasn't "harmony," neither is this forced subjugation. I don't know how it wouldn't backfire due to social unrest.
Yes, it's 100% clear that she wasn't part of the Tragedy of Duscur, or even Remire for that matter. Dimitri even basically admits this once he snaps out of his rage. I'm not saying it's impossible for this hurdle to be cleared, but it'd involve the most writing around, if you wanted to get that conversation out of the way *before* Edelgard attacks the church.
Ultimately, no matter what, a perfect route actually involves the other two lords believing that Edelgard is right, so I'm not sure how you get rid of the crests without attacking the church.
Yeah both Dimitri and Claude even state as much.
Okay that part confused me a bit. So Claude really did betray Dimitri in the BL route? So it wasn't until you actually save him that he has a change of heart?
claude has the potential to rally the most fearsome army. with alliance and almyra combined he would easily topple the kingdom, the knights of seiros and the adrestian empireClaude comes from the weakest territory that he isnt even the sovereign of, just the leader. If he didnt make his image like that people would just run over him.
There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
Yes, it's 100% clear that she wasn't part of the Tragedy of Duscur, or even Remire for that matter. Dimitri even basically admits this once he snaps out of his rage. I'm not saying it's impossible for this hurdle to be cleared, but it'd involve the most writing around, if you wanted to get that conversation out of the way *before* Edelgard attacks the church.
Ultimately, no matter what, a perfect route actually involves the other two lords believing that Edelgard is right, so I'm not sure how you get rid of the crests without attacking the church.
One ending has Fodlan ruled by an Empress with a clear will to leave her power behind, others have Fodlan still in control of the crest system. No matter what name the king/queen or new archbishop has, Edelgard's "tyranny" has a clear expiry date, the crests are permanent and will continue haunting Fodlan even after Claude and Byleth are gone.
And with what people are willing to do for crests and to people who don't have them, i just can't see Edelgard's ending being worse than the others.
One ending has Fodlan ruled by an Empress with a clear will to leave her power behind, others have Fodlan still in control of the crest system. No matter what name the king/queen or new archbishop has, Edelgard's "tyranny" has a clear expiry date, the crests are permanent and will continue haunting Fodlan even after Claude and Byleth are gone.
And with what people are willing to do for crests and to people who don't have them, i just can't see Edelgard's ending being worse than the others.
Even if Dimitri was talked into believing Edelgard, would the kingdom's lord follow their king? Claude i can see rallying the alliance's nobles behind him for this ... not so sure about the kingdom's lords.
Are hereditary monarchies a positive end?Great. So when Edel runs away because she's sick of being queen, the next power-hungry tyrant will swoop in and drive the nation into chaos all over again.
Dictatorships are not a positive end state for a setting. No matter how noble you might be, no matter how well-intentioned, you can't control how your successor turns out. We've seen it so many times throughout history and literature.
Great. So when Edel runs away because she's sick of being queen, the next power-hungry tyrant will swoop in and drive the nation into chaos all over again.
Dictatorships are not a positive end state for a setting. No matter how noble you might be, no matter how well-intentioned, you can't control how your successor turns out. We've seen it so many times throughout history and literature.
I didn't play GD (yet?), but I like that a lot. I think it's a fair representation of each route.I made this. Golden Deer players, please tell me if my reading is wrong, as I only know about that route from spoilers and hearsay.
It doesn't.
So, my super off-the-cuff, top of my head fanfiction for this route would be that they all share intel *before* edelgard's invasion and ultimately convince dimitri and edelgard to chill out and confront Rhea about the current system. They do, Rhea flips and goes dragon mode, which they have to fight, until Rhea finally realizes that Byleth *is* Sothis now and starts to back off. But during this confusion, Thales would infiltrate the church and start to cause something *really bad* to happen, like raising some kind of evil army or something or getting those magic missiles ready. Byleth would use his newfound god powers to seal himself, flayn, and Rhea in the church away from Thales - causing himself to go to sleep for five years while the other three countries are now thrust into a continent-wide war with this newfound "evil" army. The lords manage to unseal him after five years, but now the continent is fucked up by TWSID and you have to mount some kind of counter attack.
Look, it's all I got right now and it probably sucks.
We can agree that Edelgard is ruthless and doesn't care that much about any sacrifice while achieving her goal, but:There are no good endings in this game, but the one that ends in a new-generation dictatorship is the one I have the least sympathy for.
In regards to the opening mission....I kinda assumed Edelgard wouldn't really have died (because she's got super crest power hidden away, given her potentially altered stats when you face her in chapter 11), and/or TWSITD were willing to have her taken care of and insert the uncle as a puppet emperor because they knew the Flame Emperor wasn't really on 'their side', so to speak.
That, or Edelgard just....really goofed.
Otherwise, while I do think that using Byleth as a 'moderating force' to help the lords not go full-on crazy/be their worst selves (or at least Dimitri and Edelgard, less so Claude), while a cool concept, feels a bit hokey - because without them, Edelgard really does feel like a 'villain' that IS realized people might want to play as, and thus, something changed in development to start the Crimson Flower route. The fact that she directly dies by the player's hands in 2 routes (and is killed by Dedue later in GD if you spare her, IIRC), is not really a 'balanced' look.
Crimson Flower route, with the entire lack of TWSITD being dealt with on-screen, lacking of any cutscene for the timeskip, having the Empire somehow 'NOT' be in control of Fodlan (when they dominate the other routes) is IMO clearly rushed/unfinished, but whether that's because they didn't want Edelgard to have a 'perfect' (or near to it) route, and/or some other reason I don't know. I really agree with whoever had the bit about the other houses joining up with Edelgard seeming hilariously dumb - especially Mercedes, and to a lesser extent, Ingrid.
There's also little bits of the game clearly going through revisions like GD re-using the Edel death cutscene from church route, etc...which makes me wish IS had a bit more time.
I do wish that IS had spent a biiiiiit more time on making Edel more sympathetic and letting Byleth know of her plans, somehow in the BE pre-time-skip sections - as is, the 'kill/protect' Edelgard moment feels so ridiculously 'on the spot' and arbitrary/binding.
The C+ support and Edel's general 'uwu' moments pre-time-skip are good at creating a bond of sorts (and holy hell does the 'uwu' get expanded upon post time-skip, what with the re-introduction bit and the portrait stuff), but IMO don't really make her actual plans any less 'bad', optics-wise.
Wild take.Blue Lions pales in comparison as a results, seeing as the slitherers are entirely absent and the only new lore bits (regarding Dimitri and Edelgard's relationship) don't bear any fruit anyway as we don't see the truth of their mother in that route.
I've got an idea but it's more set up as a sequel tease/interquel route rather than a full story by itself.So, my super off-the-cuff, top of my head fanfiction for this route would be that they all share intel *before* edelgard's invasion and ultimately convince dimitri and edelgard to chill out and confront Rhea about the current system. They do, Rhea flips and goes dragon mode, which they have to fight, until Rhea finally realizes that Byleth *is* Sothis now and starts to back off. But during this confusion, Thales would infiltrate the church and start to cause something *really bad* to happen, like raising some kind of evil army or something or getting those magic missiles ready. Byleth would use his newfound god powers to seal himself, flayn, and Rhea in the church away from Thales - causing himself to go to sleep for five years while the other three countries are now thrust into a continent-wide war with this newfound "evil" army. The lords manage to unseal him after five years, but now the continent is fucked up by TWSID and you have to mount some kind of counter attack.
Look, it's all I got right now and it probably sucks.
-She will be gone soon (she will die young, the same as Lysithea) so her personal gain is not that important
but Rhea seems to be evil in the 4 routes, or at least seems to be obsessed with Sothis and lacking any empathy, so the ending of Edel's route seems to be "a better world after a big human sacrifice"
Wait you can spare her in GD? That woudlnt make sense because
Claude trlls her to surrender not once but twice and she refuses. Additionally Dedue can die in that battle and he died on my run so if i were to spare her no one would finish her off
but good luck erasing all of the bad things she did in the minds of the people because that will eventually make people revolt and try to be independent again.
This is so cool! Love it.I made this. Golden Deer players, please tell me if my reading is wrong, as I only know about that route from spoilers and hearsay.
The populace is with whatever Byleth chooses, and even then I doubt everyone sides with her, specially in the other 2 countiresthis is admittedly a point I think some people 'miss' - especially in the context of her needing to act 'now' (or at least, before she meets Byleth)
Rhea mellows somewhat in church/GD route - not fully, but it's kind of explained that she has a split personality of sorts with Seiros/rhea sides of her.
To be fair, I believe I've only read that one being possible (haven't played GD yet) - I could be remembering wrong, and/or it doesn't happen.
Everything from her route suggests the populace is with her, due to the manifesto she releases, in addition to the epilogue pointing out all of the 'good stuff' she does for the commonfolk like moving away from the crests = lording over others, free public education, etc....
It's a mixture of 'history is written by the victors' and 'the game goes out of its way to show how 'good' your house/route is' compared to the other houses/forces.
I do think it's interesting in that Edelgard's 'truth' of what the Emperor passed down about Rhea/Seiros is admittedly hella biased, and likely influenced by TWSITD to a huge degree - which, unfortunately, forms a lot of basis for her crusade against crests/the church.
Especially when it was TWSITD, not Rhea, who kidnapped her and killed off all her siblings.
-She erases the nobility system and so gives opportunity to talented people
-Brigid achieves a better relation with the Empire and more freedom
-She will be gone soon (she will die young, the same as Lysithea) so her personal gain is not that important
-The "bad guys" are erradicated (I mean her uncle and the others)
-The church that controls the continent (or so it seems in the Crimson Flower route) is also defeated
Rhea seems clearly evil in this route, she seems to implant a crest in Byleth's heart and acts like a crazy psycopath (the last chapter is a burning city, dozens of citizens die because she thinks that fire will help to slow Edel's troops). Byleth's lack of emotions seems to be her fault too.