Like I said the reason Edelgard is more strategic and caring of others is Byleth's influence.
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Fire Emblem: Three Houses Plot, Characters and routes discussion thread (Open Spoilers)
- Thread starter Xavi
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I suppose I'm extra-sensitive to these kinds of stories because one of the core themes in the novel I'm writing is the futility of top-down warfare as a vector for lasting social change. The main antagonist of one of the arcs of the story is a king who's grown exhausted by generations of near-endless conflict between his nation and its neighbor. He resolves to put an end to war by conquering the entire continent to ensure that there's no longer a REASON for conflict, ignoring the fact that eliminating the autonomy of another nation to serve his own personal desires, regardless of how well-intentioned they might be, will only lead to different kinds of conflict.
I could easily see a sequel set 30 to 50 years after the Edelgard path is over in which remnants of the Kingdom or the Alliance, resentful of the ways their homelands were torn apart by Edel's machinations, join together and launch an independence campaign or revolution. "But I got rid of Crests!" doesn't change the fact that you still destroyed entire countries' ways of life to get there.
It's an all-spoilers thread, nobody should be here unless they're prepared to get spoiled.
Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily take that at face value. Rhea says it is, and we're supposed to believe she's fully reformed by the time she lays it all out, but she also tells the exact same story pretty early (just without mentioning that Byleth's mom explicitly told her to remove the crest stone and put it in Byleth) and I think it's fair to be skeptical. Why would Byleth's mom know about the Crest stone? Why would she think that moving it would heal her kid? Why wasn't there like... regular healing magic?
Plus, we know for a fact that Byleth can live without the Crest stone. I don't think it adds up.
Anyway, she's the only one doing anything to accomplish her aims. How many peaceful reformers were there in the last thousand years? How many got anything done?
I have only played the BE-C route and I am now beginning Chapter 15 of BE-E route, but I already feel this second route superior. While fighting alongside the Church, no one tried to understand why Edelgard decided to declare war, even though she never seemed a crazy person.; instead, in the BE-E route the motive is stated, Edelgard seems the same as before, she is also in conflict about killing people sometimes but it is somethign she decided and she wants to go until the end to unify the country. Besides, as soon as Byleth decides to support Edelgard, Rhea shows her true expression, hinting at nothing good.
Maybe at the end of BE-E route, Edelgard will become a crazy tyrant, but at the moment my feeling is that she isn't totally in the wrong, at least less than who decide to support the Church only because it has always been the dominant entity.
Maybe at the end of BE-E route, Edelgard will become a crazy tyrant, but at the moment my feeling is that she isn't totally in the wrong, at least less than who decide to support the Church only because it has always been the dominant entity.
Yeah that is my point. No matter how good your intentions are and no matter how good the results are in the end people will still remember the times they were independent and want that back, specially people that lost loved ones in the war.
Ive heard that Dedue thing before but I havent seen any actual evidence of it. On my playthrough I was forced to kill edelgard (church cutscene that made no sense on deer at all). I also let Dedue get his dumbasss self killed while I was rounding up treasure chests.
"Entirely" is hyperbole, sure. But TWSITD are not huge players in BL like they are in GD. You will always run into them in White Clouds and they are presumably present and pulling strings in all routes but... in Blue Lions you don't see them again until the final map, as I recall it (and they're right bastards in that fight fwiw). The Blue Lions story involves them tangentially as all routes must, but this narrative isn't interested in investigating that mystery.
They are set up as a shadowy cabal responsible for this whole war. White Clouds sets that up, not Verdant Wind. They're pretty important. In a second play through, I was looking for that deep lore and another perspective of the political machinations of Fodlan. A lot of that revolves around Edelgard, and these people are intrisincally tied to Edelgard's political ambitions in all routes. I got another perspective in Blue Lions, but unfortunately it added very little to my existing knowledge of the continent.
Also, on the same note, but not really hence a different post: If they try to implement multiple routes into the next Fire Emblem AGAIN, I would honestly debate not playing it. It's an interesting concept, and while they did a MUCH better job writing for it in Three Houses than they did with Fates, it still feels like even when you go down all the routes, some things still feel either inconclusive, lack development, or abrupt when their conclusions do happen.
It's like they do one aspect amazingly with this method, which would be the character development and recent lore in this game, but then something else feels poorly done, which for me in Three Houses would be the explanation of the stuff that happened with Seiros, Sothis, Nemesis, etc., who the villains are and how they got to this point/why they're doing what they're doing, and also the pacing post timeskip just feels off at times.
It's like they do one aspect amazingly with this method, which would be the character development and recent lore in this game, but then something else feels poorly done, which for me in Three Houses would be the explanation of the stuff that happened with Seiros, Sothis, Nemesis, etc., who the villains are and how they got to this point/why they're doing what they're doing, and also the pacing post timeskip just feels off at times.
Edelgard never tries to explain her motivations, that is why nobody tries to understand her
But they never really make it clear why Edelgard was the one who needed Byleth to change. If anything, the pre-timeskip content made it seem like Dimitri was the one who relied on Byleth the most.
This I'll agree on with you. Her lack of communication was a really dumb writing point, but then again, everything revolving how she started the war, and the whole Flame Emperor thing, felt poorly written/developed.
IS has been wanting to play on two opposing sides of a war since RD. It didn't work there, it didn't work in fates, but, weird stuff aside, I think the largely pulled it off here. It's definitely at the expense of some satisfaction, but all sides have largely believable motivations (even if you don't agree with said motivations!) and they ultimately nailed the true theme of what they were going for: "Time can be cruel". It's not perfect, but it mostly works.
But I agree that I'm pretty tired of multiple route stuff. I hope they've gotten it out of their system, although the discussion around which house to follow certainly did drum up some good word of mouth.
But I agree that I'm pretty tired of multiple route stuff. I hope they've gotten it out of their system, although the discussion around which house to follow certainly did drum up some good word of mouth.
Because Edelgard closes herself to everyone to being with, only after you side with her that she feels she can trust someone and that changes her for the better.
Just compare how Edelgard attacks the monastery in her route and in the other routes. In her route she doesnt employ the demonic beasts manufactured by TWS because she feels that with Byleth she can forge her path without relying on such means
This doesn't mean anything because Petra will always have a good ending with her kingdom regardless of who wins apparently.
Makes sense, and it's honestly why I loved her route (and also have this weird feeling it's meant to be the canon one, coupled with the fact the main theme's lyrics sound like their about Edelgard). Still wish they made her a more complex villain in the other routes rather than just yelling "WAR!" constantly.
So it means both parties are in the wrong - which is good for the game, because this way it is possible to play multiple routes and on different sides.
However, in terms of the real motivations which she explains to Byleth and her class in the BE-E route, they don't seem so weak. In comparison, all the BE-C route is focused on keeping the status quo without trying to understand if it is corrupted in the inside.
I mean, everybody creates a good ending for themselves. The point being argued against was that Edelgard doesn't because she's a power crazed tyrant and everything good is just a cover for that, which is a tough sell when she's going around granting independence to former vassal states.
I think some of that comes back to the fact that Edelgard, unlike dimitri or claude, already had plans in motion - and thus, having Byleth as someone she could truly 'trust' (assuming you side with her) shows her that someone really DOES believe in her/is willing to listen, to the point where she loosens up a little.
She makes overtures to you several times after the Flame Emperor tosses out feelers pre-timeskip, but even in the moment of decision at chapter 11, she states she never thought you would actually join her.
Meanwhile, Dimitri's relationship with Byleth is more about overcoming trauma and healing/dealing with it, while Claude....is already a pretty chill dude, lol.
Come to think of it....does she actually release the manifesto on non Crimson flower routes? Because even if nothing else, that explains why she would think the church is evil/needs to go.
To be fair, between her being at odds with TWSITD and her goal of dismantling the church, I'm not sure how she could really communicate this without blowing up her entire plan if someone goes and spills the beans.
But I agree in that her goal needed to be either communicated a little better, and/or written better.
When does she say this? I don't remember that in the church route. She says she is a child of the goddess but I don't recall her saying she's Seiros
I always thought she was since they look the same lol, and with Seteth and Flayn being two of the four saints it just made a lot of sense for her to be Seiros
Maybe it was GD and I got them confused. It was during one of her information dumps explaining "the truth."
Definitely appreciated the emotional scenes we got in Dimitri's route, but something about the ending being like, "and so Dimitri got rid of all the bad people in his life and the status quo was maintained," felt so off to me given that it felt like none of the underlying problems in Fodlan were really addressed.
As for the whole Edelgard communication thing, I actually brought that up in an earlier post in that if the Church found out about her plans that it'd be game over for her lol. I think it would've been cool if they wrote it so that her dissent was gradual rather than immediate, so that the students would be concerned for her, but not really say anything, while also contemplating whether or not there were any truth to her thoughts.
But even from the first few mock battles, you know right away that Edelgard was ready to start trouble.
Again, still hoping for a True Ending route to happen to fix these writing issues.
People keep ignoring my time travel 5th route idea and it's makin' me sad lol
Her not being able to trust people for both personal and logical reasons is definitely what makes her a tragic figure in the other routes. It makes sense, but that doesn't make it easy.
I think they definitely could've communicated it better to the player in other routes, but I think that that's kinda a consequence of how they wanted to handle story revelations generally. None of the routes give you the full picture of anything. Edelgard is just kind of unique in that she's a huge part of all the routes - you don't really get a good handle on why Dimitri is an axe-crazy lunatic in GD either, but it still pretty much happens. It just matters less than Edelgard's motives because she plays a larger role in the story.
Her not being able to trust people for both personal and logical reasons is definitely what makes her a tragic figure in the other routes. It makes sense, but that doesn't make it easy.
Just pulled up the scene and I can confirm. It's in GD, she says she was the last survivor of Zanado and had to kill Nemesis herself, going by the name of Seiros.
I'm just realizing that the length of time between this game's release and the DLC Expansion is about the same length as Xenoblade 2 and Torna which was pretty massive. I wonder what are the chances the Three Houses Expansion is anywhere as close to as big as Torna.
She's one of Sothis' children. Seiros is one of Sothis' children 🤷♀️
Except imagine the Church is England and the countries are the American Colonies. America's pretty happy it decided to start a war of revolution against England. But at the time? It was controversial among colonists. A lot of brother vs brother and tons of bloodshed for some ideas that some rich plantation owners had.
How long was Torna, anyways? Was it Blood and Wine-level? I kind of got the impression it was gonna be like six hours long, but I wasn't going back into that anime-encrusted hellscape to find out.
I mean, with Byleth being one with the goddess soul/her reincarnation, she is technically right lol. More seriously, it's not like Edelgard forbid people for praying to Sothis or anything like that. Heck, she even have a support where she reveal she thinks there is a lot of good in the church teaching, but there is so much corruption hat she believe she as no choice but to crush the church. I can believe even the religious folks would follow her with the same reasoning, especially coupled with the reveal that an crazy dragon god is at the head of said church.
It's really weird. I replayed the mission recently, and realized the bandits weren't even targeting Claude and Dimitri, but everyone in the first place, and they weren't even warned about the Knight of Seiros. So basically if the goal of the bandits attack was to kill Claude and Dimitri, then it was a pretty poorly planned plan, with the a chance of her dying too. Really, she could have send the Death Knight directly and they would be dead
I will accept a 5th route only if they make Byleth the villain (not fair is the only who doesn't get killed in any route) and that everything beside the 3 lord being friends is worst.
As long as they don't add "ACTUALLY IT WAS INCEST ALL ALONG" to one of the romantic arcs like they did with A CERTAIN OTHER FIRE EMBLEM GAME, I'm fine with a golden route.
Well to be fair, they do sort of hint at an "incestuous" relationship between Dimitri and Edelgard, but they're just step-siblings and there really isn't any implied romance after a certain point.
Not comparable tho because America became independent and not conquered another country
Yeah, it's... odd. I don't want to say that it wasn't really her plan (because the game makes it pretty clear it was) but it feels like an artifact. Like you said, the plan doesn't really make sense given her context, and it's the only time we see the Flame Emperor outside of hiding her identity from Byleth and interacting with Those who Slither. I almost wonder if it wasn't Hubert wearing the outfit or something - we know that he'll go behind Edelgard's back, after all - but that would've come up later, surely. That's sloppy as hell by his standards, though. She almost dies!
I kind of wonder if it's not a translation error or a leftover from some other version of the story.
And yeah, I would be very down for a 5th route where Byleth dies.
Is it just me or was the Death Knight one hundred percent pointless? Him being Mercedes little brother doesn't matter, he has no real importance to the plot. He's just kind of flavor.
But that's basically Edelgard's point: The countries have no real sovereignty, it's all just being split up and controlled by the Church which is the true ruling force of the continent. Hers *is* a war of independence. Not all of the original 13 colonies originally agreed with the war, and most of the people fighting in the war on the side of England were colonists. The revolutionaries still had to kill and dominate the colonies to remove the influence of England from "their" continent.
Is it 1:1? Absolutely not. But ultimately this is fantasy game world. The ending is "good" despite the actions. And that's ultimately the choice the game asks you to make. Do you sacrifice the present for the future? Or do you sacrifice the future for the present? Dimitri and Claude's routes only end up "good" because Edelgard already did the hard part of crushing the church.
You don't have to agree with Edelgard's choice. That's what the game is all about. But I don't really get the surprise that some people would sympathize with a character Nintendo makes you sympathize with. They made all of the routes at least somewhat sympathetic in some way, otherwise it really *would* be weird.
But that's basically Edelgard's point: The countries have no real sovereignty, it's all just being split up and controlled by the Church which is the true ruling force of the continent. Hers *is* a war of independence. Not all of the original 13 colonies originally agreed with the war, and most of the people fighting in the war on the side of England were colonists. The revolutionaries still had to kill and dominate the colonies to remove the influence of England from "their" continent.
Is it 1:1? Absolutely not. But ultimately this is fantasy game world. The ending is "good" despite the actions. And that's ultimately the choice the game asks you to make. Do you sacrifice the present for the future? Or do you sacrifice the future for the present? Dimitri and Claude's routes only end up "good" because Edelgard already did the hard part of crushing the church.
You don't have to agree with Edelgard's choice. That's what the game is all about. But I don't really get the surprise that some people would sympathize with a character Nintendo makes you sympathize with. They made all of the routes at least somewhat sympathetic in some way, otherwise it really *would* be weird.
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It was closer to 20 hours (~40 to complete everything), albeit it was bogged down at times by walling the story by forcing you to complete side missions before you could continue. But if 3H could manage a 20-30 hour campaign without the filler for its expansion man would that be hype.
I feel like this would have to be longer than the routes in the base game
Haven't we been over this! There was no incest in fates! Every single one (even azura) is hilariously explained away
Azura's explanation is still the absolute funniest thing in the entire series to me.
I think Jeritza was kind of pointless. In the Black Eagles route, he disappears and is never heard of again. I thought he might have been the Death Knight, but apparently not. There should have been a battle involving those who slither in the dark. Edelgard's uncle, Arundel, was evil from the start but nothing ever happened with him or Thales.
I kind of felt that the Sword of the Creator and Nemesis stuff went nowhere in BE E. In the end, we never found out if Byleth was a descendant and why he could use the sword.
Love the game though, and currently on a second playthrough with the GD house. Part I is still mainly the same but there's a lot more lore so far.
I kind of felt that the Sword of the Creator and Nemesis stuff went nowhere in BE E. In the end, we never found out if Byleth was a descendant and why he could use the sword.
Love the game though, and currently on a second playthrough with the GD house. Part I is still mainly the same but there's a lot more lore so far.
The sword shit is explained though... Just in another route... It's so frustrating to me having to play the game 4 times to get all answers
He really should have been recruitable post timeskip alongside Fleche to compensate the lack of Catherine and Cyril at least. It would have been hilarious if his apology to Manuela was actually a support conversation
I made this. Golden Deer players, please tell me if my reading is wrong, as I only know about that route from spoilers and hearsay.
Played GD but not the others. It is still very connected to war I'd say since it's almost all about the war until the last two missions. I don't agree that "doing what it takes to survive" is an appropriate theme - nothing in the storyline stands out as supporting that. Maybe "overcoming prejudice and working together with everyone" - the final cutscene drives this home especially.
Even with time travel, there would have to be a LOT of changes that would make a 5th route like that to be able to work.
One major one being that without context of each other route, it would be even more confusing than the current 4 route-story-split ends up being.
The other being that even with time travel, Edelgard and Rhea are the lynchpins on making the story progress (and TWSITD, but it's not likely you'd ally with them)...and Edelgard hates Rhea because lizard people. Meanwhile, Rhea pre-timeskip, is more than willing to go Seiros on the unbelievers.
I'm not sure how I could see you convincing Edelgard unless you pick up the BE house and/or get access to all three houses - and even then, you would have to drastically change Edelgard's mind somehow early on, and/or incorporate her into dealing with Rhea without somehow triggering an immaculate one appearance.
So unless you time travel either back to Edelgard being kidnapped and 'save her' (after the crest is put in), and/or you somehow defuse Rhea way back in the Nemesis days, it would take a helluva lot of writing to somehow make things come together.
If they were ever to make a golden route, though, they'd have to find a way to 'defuse' edelgard (either make a united house with dimitri and claude, or somehow gain her trust super early on and convince her to change her mind somehow), and gain Rhea's trust.
Theoretically, this could be accomplished by having TWSITD become a much more visible/bigger threat....but I'm not sure what would draw them out into the open so early on in the story.
Admittedly, my death knight died attacking Rhea in chapter 12, but it is SUPER odd that you don't get him as a new character post-timeskip in Edel's route.
I suppose it's because he's a member of TWSITD, but even so.
That is one example, and even then America became a republic meaning that each territory had more autonomy than the territories that Edelgard made "independent"
He is actually only faithful to Edelgard, and only listen to TWSITD only if Edelgard "lend" him to them.