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Fire Emblem: Three Houses Plot, Characters and routes discussion thread (Open Spoilers)
- Thread starter Xavi
- Start date
She becomes that? Hubert x Ferdinand support shows that Hubert does things that Edelgard doesn't know or even flat out told him not to do. I doubt Hubert would even let word about a former noble, starting to revolt because they want to keep the crest, get to Edelgard.
Removing the crest doesn't prevent Hanneman from researching them, Linhardt does too btw. in some endings. They can be destroyed afterwards.
And about Edelgards crests, all of her endings don't mention that she's going to die soon, as many of Lysithea's do for her. And since those Lysithea endings where she doesn't die early feature her crests removed, in addition to Edelgards opinion about them, it's pretty likely that she has her crests removed asap.
I think Edelgard only loses one of her crests - the Crest of Flames is destroyed in her ending, but they don't explicitly say that the others were, and it'd be hard to study them in an "ongoing science" sense if they were all gone. Would make some of Lysithea's endings nonsense too.
Claude being an Almyran and ambitious doesn't make it more likely he'd get anything done - if anything, the two character traits are counter to each other. Presented with the chance to help things in routes aside from his own, he leaves rather than take anybody up on it, because, as has been said, he views the whole war as a "Fodlan problem" and ultimately he doesn't have to be involved, so he chooses not to be. He's definitely one of the "good ideas, no follow through" types.
Claude being an Almyran and ambitious doesn't make it more likely he'd get anything done - if anything, the two character traits are counter to each other. Presented with the chance to help things in routes aside from his own, he leaves rather than take anybody up on it, because, as has been said, he views the whole war as a "Fodlan problem" and ultimately he doesn't have to be involved, so he chooses not to be. He's definitely one of the "good ideas, no follow through" types.
If that's their message they did a pretty astonishly poor job of showing it, since it's still the precipitating event in all the improvements in other routes.
I don't know how much you can really read into the character epilogues since it doesn't seem like they are tailored to which route you are on. Lysithea's solo epilogue on Edelgard's route still references her noble house despite Edelgard getting rid of nobility.
I haven't dug into any text data mines or anything, but I don't think they went so far as to give each character four separate epilogues (+ pairings) for each of the four routes.
I haven't dug into any text data mines or anything, but I don't think they went so far as to give each character four separate epilogues (+ pairings) for each of the four routes.
Somebody walk me through how the continent-spanning reforms all the endings get are doable without a war. Are we just assuming that Claude or Dimitri can talk to Rhea and make a really good case for why no, really, they should be trusted to empower all of Fodlan, something she's explicitly against, even in her own words? What happens when preachers start talking about how Dimitri or Claude's reforms are heretical? What happens when Almyrans start crossing the border freely, considering it's literally scripture that no sin committed against "unbelievers" is a sin at all? Do we really think that goes well?
well Rhea is infatuated with Byleth...and if Byleth is on Claude's side thats a damn good start. It might not be talking, but they could sure as hell undermine her. Rhea also becomes reasonable in the GD route, and I feel certain Byleth and Claude could get her to that point without a war. Considering war is what caused her to reach that point in the first place, it feels actually less likely that she came around like she did in the game.
Honestly the only thing I could see the war being necessary for, is finding TWSITD, since it was their use of ballistic missiles that finally allowed hubert to pinpoint their location.
Yeah I get the point and I don't even necessarily believe war is the only way to topple the balance. However, given the context and background presented in the game, to say Edelgard didn't choose to do the same thing Claude can potentially do is not fair to her.
I say this even I am not a huge Edegard fan myself. I think she can definitely do better, even much better. But she has too much going against her so I understand her approach, even though I don't like them.
I feel like Rhea is reasonable on routes where you're working for her and going *completely axe crazy* when you're working against her is kind of a big tell that if you're actually moving against her you're gonna have a bad time.
Rhea can't even defend against the Empire alone, imagine the combined power of all the countries
People here really overestimate how much power Rhea has
You don't work for Rhea in any of these routes tho
I think people here have a very wrong idea of who Rhea is. Rhea isnt the evil pope she is painted as by edelgard. She isnt someone that wants to control the humanity just because she is evil.
Rhea has a ton of soft power, though. She's the leader of the sole religion on the continent! She relies on that to restrain the countries' militaries normally, but what happens if they all ask her politely to leave? Does she just do that, or does she start lashing out?
Isn't it established that the countries are split up as they are so that if one or two places were to revolt against the church, a dozen others would come to stomp them into the ground? The countries wouldn't have been unified for a long time if ever if it wasn't for the war Edelgard started for that very reason.
We need to remember to put the hand they're dealt into consideration before judging how they played. (I can't believe I am half defending Edelgard lol)
Also to quote Seteth "As unwavering as your convictions may be, the others also feel strongly about their beliefs. If you hate all those whose beliefs are different from yours, you will hate everyone eventually. People with exactly the same beliefs as you simply do not exist. ... You do not have to change your beliefs, of course. But you do have to accept that others feel differently."
Three Houses has some amazing quotes about different ideals especially in BL route, I really need to write them down next time.
Also to quote Seteth "As unwavering as your convictions may be, the others also feel strongly about their beliefs. If you hate all those whose beliefs are different from yours, you will hate everyone eventually. People with exactly the same beliefs as you simply do not exist. ... You do not have to change your beliefs, of course. But you do have to accept that others feel differently."
Three Houses has some amazing quotes about different ideals especially in BL route, I really need to write them down next time.
That is what Edelgard says. But as we can see the Empire alone is able to sustain a war against the other 3 Fodlan forces.
Also unification isnt necessary to implant the reforms Edelgard want.
You're defending her and her system from Edelgard - even in Golden Deer, you're explicitly working with the church, rather than against it. Close enough.
And her motives are shrouded in a ton of unreliable narrator stuff from either end, but she herself admits that she built the nobility-crest system to contain the bloodlines of the 10 heroes and prevent another revolt.
Rhea isnt evel able to resist against the empire alone, and that is with the Kingdom's help. If all the 3 countries ask her to resign with the help of Byleth I dont see how she is able to resist in power
That is because Edelgard is waging a war against both. You don't have much of a choice but cooperate. It isnt much different from Edelgard and TWS that are much worse than Rhea
That brings my previous point of why Edelgard's war is a bad idea. She eliminates all the obstacles for TWS and in the end doesnt even deal with them herself, leaves everything to Hubert
This quote just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when applied to politics to be honest. Some differences in opinion simply are irreconcilable.
I am not sure we will ever know, since no matter which route you take, the war happens and ends with a unifying ruler for the whole continent. In the end, Edelgard sees her wish granted, even if she isn't the one to have them come true.
Again, she's struggling to resist the military might of the Empire (in all routes except Edelgard's, weirdly) due to the Empire apparently blitzing its way across Faerghus and Claude keeping himself to himself. If all three go "uh hey no pressure but we'd like you to leave" and she says "no," what's the play? March on Garreg Mach? Sure, that works. Then she flies off and tells every priest still loyal to her that the current leaders are heretics. Now you've got an immortal dragon on the run and who knows what popular revolts cropping up as devout peasants and opportunistic nobles try to capitalize on the power vacuum. Besides, all you've done is prove you need force of arms to accomplish things!
I am not saying that war doesnt work. I am saying that just because it worked it doesnt mean other options wouldnt work. Like you said no matter the route, war always happens.
But you are saying that unification isn't necessary to solve the church issue, but how do you know that? Every ending ends in unification after all. Every other outcome would be uncertain.
I mean, it does work on every route but Edelgard's where she is the protagonist. 'Fending off' doesn't mean you can end a full-scale war just like that either. It's just that the church gets screwed over in the end anyway, even on routes where you support it.
is more like they had to compromise to make all routes feel like the main route. This is no Radiant Historia
They will be called heretics no matter what, war or not. If they expose her and tries to remove her peacefully at least they have the chance of not starting a war. Now if she starts a war in retaliation it is another matter but it wont be something they started
With A grade assholes, like Lorenz' father, who jumps at every chance to improve his status and isn't shy of doing most heinous acts, around there's little chance you ever have the whole nobilty of all three realms together. Dimitri and Claude would need to take measures that rogue lords would get silenced.
Edelgard has the empire united because she get's rid of those who wouldn't play along, also the "true" might of the Empires in her uncle makes sure that the nation follows.
And in the end ... the church still has basically three dragons at command. Why she's keeping up her disguise when the Empire makes it's first move, i dunno.
Worth noting that though distasteful, Edelgard's alliance with Those who Slither giving her access to stuff like the Demonic Beasts is a big part of why Faerghus falls so quickly outside of her own route, and her refusal to use them in her own is why things are locked in a 3-way stalemate. Definitely not part of Rhea's plan, that.
I don't really find that believable, honestly. Being excommunicated is generally a big deal for rulers in settings like this, as well as historically.
So do they start the war? What goes down?
What if she doesn't start the war? What if she just sits there in Garreg Mach and keeps on pounding the "they're heretics it is the duty of all right-thinking Seiros followers* to remove them" drum? Does that just... not do anything?
I don't really find that believable, honestly. Being excommunicated is generally a big deal for rulers in settings like this, as well as historically.
So do they start the war? What goes down?
I am quoting it for the participants of this thread lol
But I don't think Seteth's quote is even about reconciliation. It's about to accept the reality that there will always be different opinions.
Exactly because of that you can't say that war is the only option, because we can't know what would happen if Edegard didn't start a war.
Those didnt make a difference even when Edelgard was alone, i doubt it would make difference with all 3 lords together.
Appealing for her followers help didnt make the empire any weaker
Yeah, but sometimes those other opinions are just like... unacceptable. "Live and let live" is fine when you're talking, I dunno, sports or favorite foods, but politics? Not so much.
Even if Edelgard was like "no war, I'm just gonna spark a huge social movement that demands reform," it doesn't really solve anything. The church is still in power, they're still corrupt and using the caste system to their benefit, etc. And even then, if the church doesn't listen, you can bet your ass they're gonna start executing people who are huge within the movement, which will inevitably spark conflict anyway.
The war was always going to happen.
The war was always going to happen.
But we have 'thousands of years' of nothing happening with the church in control. That's enough sample size to suggest nothing would keep on happening if not for unification brought forth by war.
But at least she would try a peaceful measure. She would definitely get more allies that way too because more people would against the church if they started executing people from a peaceful movement etc.
But she didnt.
Read above.
I never got the impression the church got screwed over in any route except Edelgard's. It ends up weakened certainly but not destroyed.
And of course in the Church ending it ends up in even a better position and society is still happy.
The church certainly still exists, but with reforms so extensive it might as well be a new body.
Here's the thing:
]If you pick the church path, you kill Edelgard, Rhea, and Those who Slither in the Dark
You then proceed to take over the church and run the country yourself, Seteth reforms the church curriculum to promote tolerance, and Hanneman uses his Crest research to do away with the Crest system inequality. You literally accomplish EVERYTHING Edelgard tried to accomplish with a fraction of the bodycount and much more success.
And Rhea basically relents on her plans on the realization that her mother sacrificed herself to save Byleth, and is genuinely regretful of everything that spawned from that mission to bring her back to life
There's a real chance the person getting executed is her, by Those who Slither, before she even starts. I dunno, man, feels like a big ask for what's ultimately a performative gesture.
This is a spoiler thread. Don't mark ya spoilers.
And you only accomplish that because you sided with Rhea against Edelgard - it's still in the frame of her war being the precipitating action. Besides, maybe Rhea hands the throne over to you without that, maybe she doesn't, but it's this huge, outside-context thing. You can't really say it would've happened regardless so Edelgard was wrong to try.
I wonder if it had anything at all to do with the church executing heretics. Hell Fodlan is a land where people are worried about simple conversations being labeled blasphemy if heard by the wrong person.
War was inevitable.
No one else knows what Edelgard does. It's a closely guarded Adrestian royal family secret. How can you expect people to follow you in peaceful protest if they have no issues with the current church, and don't know the truth and have seen no evidence to back it up? It's not like Edelgard has an airtight piece of evidence to back up her claims, otherwise she would have used it to drum up support for her military campaign.
Yeah but you're still in charge of an organization built on corruption, violence, and the execution of innocents who don't agree with you.
Even if the leadership changes, the history doesn't.
Sorry, thought I was in the other thread for some reason.
She wouldn't have. She forces you to kill her on the threat that she's just gonna keep continuing the war if you don't. She makes it perfectly clear at the start of the timeskip that she's not gonna try convincing you anymore and just wants you dead. This seems to carry over into every route but her own. Rhea on the other hand WOULD have, had she not gone corrupt due to extensive magic nuke damage.
And what is the Empire? The history is the reason for a change in leadership, so that it may no longer continue.
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Edelgard isnt executed when she stops being useful for them, so what makes you think they will be able to execute her before?
It isnt like they wouldn't benefit from Rhea being deposed
Wait...Rhea does not die in the Church route!!!
I S-ranked With Rhea in the Church route so she does survive in that situation and assists in the reformation of the church with you.
I S-ranked With Rhea in the Church route so she does survive in that situation and assists in the reformation of the church with you.
Edelgard doesn't stop being useful to them in any route in the game until she dies. They're willing to put up with her acts of defiance, sure, but if they think that she's sincerely only interested in a peaceful approach that they don't think will work? I think they scrap her and get ready for the next go. And if she's out here telling them that it's not really intended to be peaceful, then there's no moral upside under the framework you've made, since she's still planning a war.
That's the only way she gains control of herself and doesn't die, yeah. All other times she goes nuts or is killed before she has the chance.
You can't say for certain because Edelgard never tried. The church isnt powerful enough to execute all the leaders
But that is what you think that would happen. You cant say for sure they would be against it
She was the final boss in mine because she got corrupted on near death. I S-ranked with Petra so on top of everything else being great, foreign relations with Brigid are basically fixed. No more political hostages.
But that does sorta prove my point that she would've let you fix it even if she didn't die so thanks, haha
They don't have to execute the leaders themselves. They could just execute any of their officials who preach "heresy" in Church-friendly territories. That'd do it.
Yeah, that happens regardless of who she's with. Even her solo ending on the Edelgard route.
Clearly the answer here is to find someone to love Rhea and her to love them back!
They werent able to do it when Edelgard was alone, nothing indicates that they would be able to do that with all the 3 powers together.
Remember, only the central church has real power, the western church defected and the eastern has no military power
The message is pretty obvious. Shit needed to be stirred for change to happen. Now, wether or not the one stirring shit up reaps the benefits, that's a story for another day. We have a few historical examples of revolutions where the final "winners" are far from those who started it in the first place. If anything I don't think we can find historical examples of radical changes occurring without violence.
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Byleth is what keeps any of them sane and grounded bar Claude. He/She is the will of the goddess taken form if you will. Whatever side Byleth and through them Sothis chooses is what shapes the future.