So Edelgard basically becomes what she hates, because killing everyone that disagrees with her new system is basically what Rhea did.
Also crests still exist in her ending because Hanneman is able study them. Unless that is a plot hole.
Also I dont think her crests are really gone, I dont remember it being talked about
If that's their message they did a pretty astonishly poor job of showing it, since it's still the precipitating event in all the improvements in other routes.That is because the message that they want to pass is that the war wasn't necessary imo.
He was ambitious and already planning things before the war though, and with Byleth's help I dont actually believe he wouldnt be capable without the war.
It's always going to be weird because one of the houses had to *start* the war, but all of the houses get an unquestionably good ending. I'd argue that none of the good developments in the future of Fodlan would have happened without the war, which, technically that's Edelgard's whole shtick. But then they have three paths that oppose this war, yet reap the benefits. It's wonky writing.
well Rhea is infatuated with Byleth...and if Byleth is on Claude's side thats a damn good start. It might not be talking, but they could sure as hell undermine her. Rhea also becomes reasonable in the GD route, and I feel certain Byleth and Claude could get her to that point without a war. Considering war is what caused her to reach that point in the first place, it feels actually less likely that she came around like she did in the game.Somebody walk me through how the continent-spanning reforms all the endings get are doable without a war. Are we just assuming that Claude or Dimitri can talk to Rhea and make a really good case for why no, really, they should be trusted to empower all of Fodlan, something she's explicitly against, even in her own words? What happens when preachers start talking about how Dimitri or Claude's reforms are heretical? What happens when Almyrans start crossing the border freely, considering it's literally scripture that no sin committed against "unbelievers" is a sin at all? Do we really think that goes well?
he was ambitious and already planning things before the war though, and with Byleth's help I dont actually believe he wouldnt be capable without the war
The thing is, war isnt the only way to break the status quo. Also I think an Almyran being the leader of a country is already breaking the status quo.
I feel like Rhea is reasonable on routes where you're working for her and going *completely axe crazy* when you're working against her is kind of a big tell that if you're actually moving against her you're gonna have a bad time.well Rhea is infatuated with Byleth...and if Byleth is on Claude's side thats a damn good start. It might not be talking, but they could sure as hell undermine her. Rhea also becomes reasonable in the GD route, and I feel certain Byleth and Claude could get her to that point without a war. Considering war is what caused her to reach that point in the first place, it feels actually less likely that she came around like she did in the game.
Honestly the only thing I could see the war being necessary for, is finding TWSITD, since it was their use of ballistic missiles that finally allowed hubert to pinpoint their location.
Rhea can't even defend against the Empire alone, imagine the combined power of all the countriesSomebody walk me through how the continent-spanning reforms all the endings get are doable without a war. Are we just assuming that Claude or Dimitri can talk to Rhea and make a really good case for why no, really, they should be trusted to empower all of Fodlan, something she's explicitly against, even in her own words? What happens when preachers start talking about how Dimitri or Claude's reforms are heretical? What happens when Almyrans start crossing the border freely, considering it's literally scripture that no sin committed against "unbelievers" is a sin at all? Do we really think that goes well?
You don't work for Rhea in any of these routes thoI feel like Rhea is reasonable on routes where you're working for her and going *completely axe crazy* when you're working against her is kind of a big tell that if you're actually moving against her you're gonna have a bad time.
Rhea has a ton of soft power, though. She's the leader of the sole religion on the continent! She relies on that to restrain the countries' militaries normally, but what happens if they all ask her politely to leave? Does she just do that, or does she start lashing out?Rhea can't even defend against the Empire alone, imagine the combined power of all the countries
People here really overestimate how much power Rhea has
Rhea can't even defend against the Empire alone, imagine the combined power of all the countries
People here really overestimate how much power Rhea has
That is what Edelgard says. But as we can see the Empire alone is able to sustain a war against the other 3 Fodlan forces.Isn't it established that the countries are split up as they are so that if one or two places were to revolt against the church, a dozen others would come to stomp them into the ground? The countries wouldn't have been unified for a long time if ever if it wasn't for the war Edelgard started for that very reason.
You're defending her and her system from Edelgard - even in Golden Deer, you're explicitly working with the church, rather than against it. Close enough.You don't work for Rhea in any of these routes tho
I think people here have a very wrong idea of who Rhea is. Rhea isnt the evil pope she is painted as by edelgard. She isnt someone that wants to control the humanity just because she is evil.
Rhea isnt evel able to resist against the empire alone, and that is with the Kingdom's help. If all the 3 countries ask her to resign with the help of Byleth I dont see how she is able to resist in powerRhea has a ton of soft power, though. She's the leader of the sole religion on the continent! She relies on that to restrain the countries' militaries normally, but what happens if they all ask her politely to leave? Does she just do that, or does she start lashing out?
That is because Edelgard is waging a war against both. You don't have much of a choice but cooperate. It isnt much different from Edelgard and TWS that are much worse than RheaYou're defending her and her system from Edelgard - even in Golden Deer, you're explicitly working with the church, rather than against it. Close enough.
And her motives are shrouded in a ton of unreliable narrator stuff from either end, but she herself admits that she built the nobility-crest system to contain the bloodlines of the 10 heroes and prevent another revolt.
We need to remember to put the hand they're dealt into consideration before judging how they played. (I can't believe I am half defending Edelgard lol)
Also to quote Seteth "As unwavering as your convictions may be, the others also feel strongly about their beliefs. If you hate all those whose beliefs are different from yours, you will hate everyone eventually. People with exactly the same beliefs as you simply do not exist. ... You do not have to change your beliefs, of course. But you do have to accept that others feel differently."
Three Houses has some amazing quotes about different ideals especially in BL route, I really need to write them down next time.
That is what Edelgard says. But as we can see the Empire alone is able to sustain a war against the other 3 Fodlan forces.
Also unification isnt necessary to implant the reforms Edelgard want.
Again, she's struggling to resist the military might of the Empire (in all routes except Edelgard's, weirdly) due to the Empire apparently blitzing its way across Faerghus and Claude keeping himself to himself. If all three go "uh hey no pressure but we'd like you to leave" and she says "no," what's the play? March on Garreg Mach? Sure, that works. Then she flies off and tells every priest still loyal to her that the current leaders are heretics. Now you've got an immortal dragon on the run and who knows what popular revolts cropping up as devout peasants and opportunistic nobles try to capitalize on the power vacuum. Besides, all you've done is prove you need force of arms to accomplish things!Rhea isnt evel able to resist against the empire alone, and that is with the Kingdom's help. If all the 3 countries ask her to resign with the help of Byleth I dont see how she is able to resist in power
I am not saying that war doesnt work. I am saying that just because it worked it doesnt mean other options wouldnt work. Like you said no matter the route, war always happens.I am not sure we will ever know, since no matter which route you take, the war happens and ends with a unifying ruler for the whole continent. In the end, Edelgard sees her wish granted, even if she isn't the one to have them come true.
I am not saying that war doesnt work. I am saying that just because it worked it doesnt mean other options wouldnt work. Like you said no matter the route, war always happens.
Yeah, it did bother me that the church is this big scary organization, but it's not able to fend off attacks from one country, which was the whole reason it divided up the continent in the first place.
is more like they had to compromise to make all routes feel like the main route. This is no Radiant HistoriaIt's always going to be weird because one of the houses had to *start* the war, but all of the houses get an unquestionably good ending. I'd argue that none of the good developments in the future of Fodlan would have happened without the war, which, technically that's Edelgard's whole shtick. But then they have three paths that oppose this war, yet reap the benefits. It's wonky writing.
They will be called heretics no matter what, war or not. If they expose her and tries to remove her peacefully at least they have the chance of not starting a war. Now if she starts a war in retaliation it is another matter but it wont be something they startedAgain, she's struggling to resist the military might of the Empire (in all routes except Edelgard's, weirdly) due to the Empire apparently blitzing its way across Faerghus and Claude keeping himself to himself. If all three go "uh hey no pressure but we'd like you to leave" and she says "no," what's the play? March on Garreg Mach? Sure, that works. Then she flies off and tells every priest still loyal to her that the current leaders are heretics. Now you've got an immortal dragon on the run and who knows what popular revolts cropping up as devout peasants and opportunistic nobles try to capitalize on the power vacuum. Besides, all you've done is prove you need force of arms to accomplish things!
Rhea isnt evel able to resist against the empire alone, and that is with the Kingdom's help. If all the 3 countries ask her to resign with the help of Byleth I dont see how she is able to resist in power
What if she doesn't start the war? What if she just sits there in Garreg Mach and keeps on pounding the "they're heretics it is the duty of all right-thinking Seiros followers* to remove them" drum? Does that just... not do anything?They will be called heretics no matter what, war or not. If they expose her and tries to remove her peacefully at least they have the chance of not starting a war. Now if she starts a war in retaliation it is another matter but it wont be something they started
This quote just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when applied to politics to be honest. Some differences in opinion simply are irreconcilable.
Exactly because of that you can't say that war is the only option, because we can't know what would happen if Edegard didn't start a war.But you are saying that unification isn't necessary to solve the church issue, but how do you know that? Every ending ends in unification after all. Every other outcome would be uncertain.
Those didnt make a difference even when Edelgard was alone, i doubt it would make difference with all 3 lords together.With A grade assholes, like Lorenz' father, who jumps at every chance to improve his status and isn't shy of doing most heinous acts, around there's little chance you ever have the whole nobilty of all three realms together. Dimitri and Claude would need to take measures that rogue lords would get silenced.
Edelgard has the empire united because she get's rid of those who wouldn't play along, also the "true" might of the Empires in her uncle makes sure that the nation follows.
And in the end ... the church still has basically three dragons at command. Why she's keeping up her disguise when the Empire makes it's first move, i dunno.
Appealing for her followers help didnt make the empire any weakerWorth noting that though distasteful, Edelgard's alliance with Those who Slither giving her access to stuff like the Demonic Beasts is a big part of why Faerghus falls so quickly outside of her own route, and her refusal to use them in her own is why things are locked in a 3-way stalemate.
What if she doesn't start the war? What if she just sits there in Garreg Mach and keeps on pounding the "they're heretics it is the duty of all right-thinking Seiros followers* to remove them" drum? Does that just... not do anything?
I don't really find that believable, honestly. Being excommunicated is generally a big deal for rulers in settings like this, as well as historically.
So do they start the war? What goes down?
Yeah, but sometimes those other opinions are just like... unacceptable. "Live and let live" is fine when you're talking, I dunno, sports or favorite foods, but politics? Not so much.I am quoting it for the participants of this thread lol
But I don't think Seteth's quote is even about reconciliation. It's about to accept the reality that there will always be different opinions.
Exactly because of that you can't say that war is the only option, because we can't know what would happen if Edegard didn't start a war.
But at least she would try a peaceful measure. She would definitely get more allies that way too because more people would against the church if they started executing people from a peaceful movement etc.Even if Edelgard was like "no war, I'm just gonna spark a huge social movement that demands reform," it doesn't really solve anything. The church is still in power, they're still corrupt and using the caste system to their benefit, etc. And even then, if the church doesn't listen, you can bet your ass they're gonna start executing people who are huge within the movement, which will inevitably spark conflict anyway.
The war was always going to happen.
Read above.But we have 'thousands of years' of nothing happening with the church in control. That's enough sample size to suggest nothing would keep on happening if not for unification brought forth by war.
I never got the impression the church got screwed over in any route except Edelgard's. It ends up weakened certainly but not destroyed.I mean, it does work on every route but Edelgard's where she is the protagonist. 'Fending off' doesn't mean you can end a full-scale war just like that either. It's just that the church gets screwed over in the end anyway, even on routes where you support it.
I never got the impression the church got screwed over in any route except Edelgard's. It ends up weakened certainly but not destroyed.
Even if Edelgard was like "no war, I'm just gonna spark a huge social movement that demands reform," it doesn't really solve anything. The church is still in power, they're still corrupt and using the caste system to their benefit, etc. And even then, if the church doesn't listen, you can bet your ass they're gonna start executing people who are huge within the movement, which will inevitably spark conflict anyway.
The war was always going to happen.
There's a real chance the person getting executed is her, by Those who Slither, before she even starts. I dunno, man, feels like a big ask for what's ultimately a performative gesture.But at least she would try a peaceful measure. She would definitely get more allies that way too because more people would against the church if they started executing people from a peaceful movement etc.
But she didnt.
This is a spoiler thread. Don't mark ya spoilers.Here's the thing:
If you pick the church path, you kill Edelgard, Rhea, and Those who Slither in the Dark
You then proceed to take over the church and run the country yourself, Seteth reforms the church curriculum to promote tolerance, and Hanneman uses his Crest research to do away with the Crest system inequality. You literally accomplish EVERYTHING Edelgard tried to accomplish with a fraction of the bodycount and much more success
I wonder if it had anything at all to do with the church executing heretics. Hell Fodlan is a land where people are worried about simple conversations being labeled blasphemy if heard by the wrong person.But at least she would try a peaceful measure. She would definitely get more allies that way too because more people would against the church if they started executing people from a peaceful movement etc.
But she didnt.
But at least she would try a peaceful measure. She would definitely get more allies that way too because more people would against the church if they started executing people from a peaceful movement etc.
But she didnt.
Read above.
Here's the thing:
If you pick the church path, you kill Edelgard, Rhea, and Those who Slither in the Dark
You then proceed to take over the church and run the country yourself, Seteth reforms the church curriculum to promote tolerance, and Hanneman uses his Crest research to do away with the Crest system inequality. You literally accomplish EVERYTHING Edelgard tried to accomplish with a fraction of the bodycount and much more success
Sorry, thought I was in the other thread for some reason.There's a real chance the person getting executed is her, by Those who Slither, before she even starts. I dunno, man, feels like a big ask for what's ultimately a performative gesture.
This is a spoiler thread. Don't mark ya spoilers.
And you only accomplish that because you sided with Rhea against Edelgard - it's still in the frame of her war being the precipitating action. Besides, maybe Rhea hands the throne over to you without that, maybe she doesn't, but it's this huge, outside-context thing. You can't really say it would've happened regardless so Edelgard was wrong to try.
And what is the Empire? The history is the reason for a change in leadership, so that it may no longer continue.Yeah but you're still in charge of an organization built on corruption, violence, and the execution of innocents who don't agree with you.
Even if the leadership changes, the history doesn't.
Edelgard isnt executed when she stops being useful for them, so what makes you think they will be able to execute her before?There's a real chance the person getting executed is her, by Those who Slither, before she even starts. I dunno, man, feels like a big ask.
Edelgard doesn't stop being useful to them in any route in the game until she dies. They're willing to put up with her acts of defiance, sure, but if they think that she's sincerely only interested in a peaceful approach that they don't think will work? I think they scrap her and get ready for the next go. And if she's out here telling them that it's not really intended to be peaceful, then there's no moral upside under the framework you've made, since she's still planning a war.Edelgard isnt executed when she stops being useful for them, so what makes you think they will be able to execute her before?
It isnt like they wouldn't benefit from Rhea being deposed
That's the only way she gains control of herself and doesn't die, yeah. All other times she goes nuts or is killed before she has the chance.Wait...Rhea does not die in the Church route!!!
I S-ranked With Rhea in the Church route so she does survive in that situation.
You can't say for certain because Edelgard never tried. The church isnt powerful enough to execute all the leadersI wonder if it had anything at all to do with the church executing heretics. Hell Fodlan is a land where people are worried about simple conversations being labeled blasphemy if heard by the wrong person.
War was inevitable.
But that is what you think that would happen. You cant say for sure they would be against itEdelgard doesn't stop being useful to them in any route in the game until she dies. They're willing to put up with her acts of defiance, sure, but if they think that she's sincerely only interested in a peaceful approach that they don't think will work? I think they scrap her and get ready for the next go. And if she's out here telling them that it's not really intended to be peaceful, then there's no moral upside under the framework you've made, since she's still planning a war.
She was the final boss in mine because she got corrupted on near death. I S-ranked with Petra so on top of everything else being great, foreign relations with Brigid are basically fixed. No more political hostages.Wait...Rhea does not die in the Church route!!!
I S-ranked With Rhea in the Church route so she does survive in that situation and assists in the reformation of the church with you.
They don't have to execute the leaders themselves. They could just execute any of their officials who preach "heresy" in Church-friendly territories. That'd do it.You can't say for certain because Edelgard never tried. The church isnt powerful enough to execute all the leaders
Yeah, that happens regardless of who she's with. Even her solo ending on the Edelgard route.She was the final boss in mine because she got corrupted on near death. I S-ranked with Petra so on top of everything else being great, foreign relations with Brigid are basically fixed. No more political hostages.
Clearly the answer here is to find someone to love Rhea and her to love them back!That's the only way she gains control of herself and doesn't die, yeah. All other times she goes nuts or is killed before she has the chance.
They werent able to do it when Edelgard was alone, nothing indicates that they would be able to do that with all the 3 powers together.They don't have to execute the leaders themselves. They could just execute any of their officials who preach "heresy" in Church-friendly territories. That'd to it.
The message is pretty obvious. Shit needed to be stirred for change to happen. Now, wether or not the one stirring shit up reaps the benefits, that's a story for another day. We have a few historical examples of revolutions where the final "winners" are far from those who started it in the first place. If anything I don't think we can find historical examples of radical changes occurring without violence.If that's their message they did a pretty astonishly poor job of showing it, since it's still the precipitating event in all the improvements in other routes.
Clearly the answer here is to find someone to love Rhea and her to love them back!