Fire Emblem Three Houses should've had a "Third Choice" [Open Spoilers]

[Jawmuncher]

I've been playing Cindered Shadows and pondering about the campaign while I do so. One thought that crossed my mind is how the campaign leads into only two real choices "For the Church" or "Against the Church". While this is probably more than enough for most people, I feel there could've been a lot of potential in a third choice where you fight both the church and Edelgard as you your newly formed faction would disagree with how the other two factions are playing out.

I know some discourse here would be "Well if you don't like the church you should be fine with Edelgard". But I don't think things are that simple, especially when her route is locked onto Black Eagles. I remember playing the Golden Deer route and going "yeah, i'll join you" in a dialog option and being told "I don't believe you". Even though I was 100% fine doing a 180 on my students. That's probably neither here nor there as the game is loaded with a lot of "fake" choices throughout, but it adds to why there being only 2 real options sort of hinders things.

Aside from all of that, i'm just a big sucker for multi-faction conflicts as it adds a lot more flavor to numerous elements. I know of course that other parts of the game would've needed to change, especially when it comes to the story. But the possibility of what could've been is really interesting to think about and while I love the Ashen Wolves and the game itself, sometimes I do wish we would've been treated more to a "Conquest" style expansion instead.

**Note: I'm a new Fire Emblem fan and have only played everything released after Awakening. So if prior games did this i'd like to know. Since that would be something i'd like to see remade.

 

[FiXalaS]

I've been playing Cindered Shadows and pondering about the campaign while I do so. One thought that crossed my mind is how the campaign leads into only two real choices "For the Church" or "Against the Church". While this is probably more than enough for most people, I feel there could've been a lot of potential in a third choice where you fight both the church and Edelgard as you your newly formed faction would disagree with how the other two factions are playing out.

I know some discourse here would be "Well if you don't like the church you should be fine with Edelgard". But I don't think things are that simple, especially when her route is locked onto Black Eagles. I remember playing the Golden Deer route and going "yeah, i'll join you" in a dialog option and being told "I don't believe you". Even though I was 100% fine doing a 180 on my students. That's probably neither here nor there as the game is loaded with a lot of "fake" choices throughout, but it adds to why there being only 2 real options sort of hinders things.

Aside from all of that, i'm just a big sucker for multi-faction conflicts as it adds a lot more flavor to numerous elements. I know of course that other parts of the game would've needed to change, especially when it comes to the story. But the possibility of what could've been is really interesting to think about and while I love the Ashen Wolves and the game itself, sometimes I do wish we would've been treated more to a "Conquest" style expansion instead.

**Note: I'm a new Fire Emblem fan and have only played everything released after Awakening. So if prior games did this i'd like to know. Since that would be something i'd like to see remade.

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Oh Jaw it definitely is possible to disagree with both the church and Edelgard. Claude's a bit like that but you still end up siding with the church kinda..

 

[Jawmuncher]

Oh Jaw it definitely is possible to disagree with both the church and Edelgard. Claude's a bit like that but you still end up siding with the church kinda..

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Yeah, if there would've been a full-on third faction/campaign that's you fighting them both head on. That would've been the rad.

 

[FiXalaS]

Yeah, if there would've been a full-on third faction/campaign that's you fighting them both head on. That would've been the rad.

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I could be misremembering but just recently we had a interview with the devs saying that a golden route is not planned and was never planned... they said it would be too much like Fates

Spoiler

In Fates there is a route where you side with neither, similar to what you suggested

 

[Phendrift]

Definitely felt like Claude's was the closest to that but yeah it would've been cool if they went further. And although there really are only those two options in general, the game already has a lot more depth within that and different people having different reasons to support Edelgard or the church

 

[jaekeem]

I think the problem there is that byleth can't carry a path on their own

At least silver snow has rhea seteth and flayn

 

[PBalfredo]

I feel there could've been a lot of potential in a third choice where you fight both the church and Edelgard as you your newly formed faction would disagree with how the other two factions are playing out.

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I feel like that's the path the Golden Deer would be on if it wasn't for the fact that Verdant Wind is the conjoined twin of Silver Snow. After the timeskip, there's a big conversation with Claude about how his dreams would put him on a direct collision course with the church. I get the distinct impression that if Edelgard didn't start the war with the church first, Claude's undermining of church dogma for his open society would have come to blows eventually. The fact that he allies with the church and frees Rhea from Enbarr only really works out in Verdant Wind because Rhea gets injured at Shambala and then just sort of bows out of the picture.

The Golden Deer being an actual third faction and not just fair-weather allies of the church-aligned Kingdom against the Empire also would have made the Three Kingdoms-inspired battle of Groder Field be an actual three-way battle for supremacy, and not a weird one-off mainly caused by Dimitri not being a rational actor.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I could be misremembering but just recently we had a interview with the devs saying that a golden route is not planned and was never planned... they said it would be too much like Fates

Spoiler

In Fates there is a route where you side with neither, similar to what you suggested

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I really liked fates, even though I know most disagree with me there lol.

I feel like that's the path the Golden Deer would be on if it wasn't for the fact that Verdant Wind is the conjoined twin of Silver Snow. After the timeskip, there's a big conversation with Claude about how his dreams would put him on a direct collision course with the church. I get the distinct impression that if Edelgard didn't start the war with the church first, Claude's undermining of church dogma for his open society would have come to blows eventually. The fact that he allies with the church and frees Rhea from Enbarr only really works out in Verdant Wind because Rhea gets injured at Shambala and then just sort of bows out of the picture.

The Golden Deer being an actual third faction and not just fair-weather allies of the church-aligned Kingdom against the Empire also would have made the Three Kingdoms-inspired battle of Groder Field be an actual three-way battle for supremacy, and not a weird one-off mainly caused by Dimitri not being a rational actor.

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Yeah Golden Deer is definitely what manages to get closest, wonder if maybe they thought of doing it and then decided to change it for other reasons.

 

[Phendrift]

I think the reason they didn't do this with GD is because, well, it would've been closest to the "Golden" route.

Like, people disagree and agree with Edelgard and the Church. There are faults in both.

Going against both would be the "hey this is the right option!" and kinda undermine the most powerful aspect of the game in my opinion - no one side is 100% right

 

[Sagadego17]

I really liked fates, even though I know most disagree with me there lol.

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oh hells yeah i'm not alone in loving fates.

 

[Hailinel]

The game is better for not having a golden route.

 

[PBalfredo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think the OP is talking about a golden route. More like what if Golden Deer could stick to its guns and be its own route and not forget that the church is a huge impediment to Claude's ideals.

 

[The Adder]

I mean, aside from Edelgard's route, you're literally the current pope. You can't go against the church unless you're deliberately attacking Church folks happily willing to stand with you. As far as anyone with authority is concerned, until Rhea comes back (and even after) you are the Church. And "anyone with authority" includes Rhea herself.

 

[Andri]

I agree, and i also think it wouldnt be the "golden route".

The golden route would be something like being the teacher to all 3(or 4 now i guess) houses, making up with Reha and then slapping the Sliterhing people out of existance.

GD sticking to its full potential, completely removing all rememnants of the old order, including the church would have been great, but still not the Golden Route, since you wouldnt make up with eddie in that one.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

I agree, and i also think it wouldnt be the "golden route".

The golden route would be something like being the teacher to all 3(or 4 now i guess) houses, making up with Reha and then slapping the Sliterhing people out of existance.

GD sticking to its full potential, completely removing all rememnants of the old order, including the church would have been great, but still not the Golden Route, since you wouldnt make up with eddie in that one.

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you end GD as the pope and in charge of the whole continent so you kinda already do that? GD already includes the church and removes the old order, in fact the old order doesn't stay in basically any route if I remember correctly, you either kill the church or you end up the pope

 

[Hailinel]

you end GD as the pope and in charge of the whole continent so you kinda already do that? GD already includes the church and removes the old order, in fact the old order doesn't stay in basically any route if I remember correctly, you either kill the church or you end up the pope

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The old order is specifically the three nations living in coexistence if not harmony with the Church as a guiding force across the continent. Regardless of the outcome, that order is completely upended.

 

[Andri]

you end GD as the pope and in charge of the whole continent so you kinda already do that? GD already includes the church and removes the old order, in fact the old order doesn't stay in basically any route if I remember correctly, you either kill the church or you end up the pope

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Becoming what you were fighting isnt my idea of removing the old order.

I dont want to be the Pope, i want to ban organised religion.
There is nothing good ever to be had from organised Religion in any game besides Civ maybe.

 

[Hailinel]

Becoming what you were fighting isnt my idea of removing the old order.

I dont want to be the Pope, i want to ban organised religion.
There is nothing good ever to be had from organised Religion in any game besides Civ maybe.

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As much as Edelgard stans that only played Crimson Flower might like to argue this, the Church of Seiros isn't a JRPG Evil Church. It's a flawed organization with some shady practices in some aspects, as well as nearly a millennium of baggage in the form of Those Who Slither. But the game's central premise isn't "Church Bad".

 

[Andri]

As much as Edelgard stans that only played Crimson Flower might like to argue this, the Church of Seiros isn't a JRPG Evil Church. It's a flawed organization with some shady practices in some aspects, as well as nearly a millennium of baggage in the form of Those Who Slither. But the games central premise isn't "Church Bad".

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But it should be ;)

And while i am an Eddie stan, i did play all routes, and my suggestion was for the GD route, since the dissolution of the organised Church and a change to the system that exists in Almyra seems like a Claude thing to do.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Becoming what you were fighting isnt my idea of removing the old order.

I dont want to be the Pope, i want to ban organised religion.
There is nothing good ever to be had from organised Religion in any game besides Civ maybe.

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I assumed the meaning of the old order meant Rhea's particular brand of zealotry my mistake. But yes it would have been nice to have an anti-church route that wasn't Edelgard, but they probably didn't want to send too heavy an anti-religious message in the game

As much as Edelgard stans that only played Crimson Flower might like to argue this, the Church of Seiros isn't a JRPG Evil Church. It's a flawed organization with some shady practices in some aspects, as well as nearly a millennium of baggage in the form of Those Who Slither. But the game's central premise isn't "Church Bad".

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But the church is bad though, its leader and followers are a bunch of zealots that help prop up the nobility system.

 

[Sterok]

Church does some good and some bad. Just like the Empire, Kingdom, and every other faction that's don't dubstep in their free time. Clearly the actual fifth route would be the fish route with Flayn as the Lord where you go hunt down the Big One while everyone else just slaps each other.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

But the church is bad though, its leader and followers are a bunch of zealots that help prop up the nobility system.

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Didn't see Seteth's support with Ingrid?
And there's not much to suggest Rhea supports the nobility system.

The nobility system was all humans. Humans decided to build it around crests.
The church didn't give out the crests, the Humans stole them from the blood of the Nabataiens they slaughtered.
Rhea was just a broken person attempting to create peace with the humans who genocided her entire race, and tried to sweep the genocide of her people under the rug thinking this would help in doing so. Rhea wasn't the good guy nor bad guy either. Like Edelgard she's a complex character.

 

[Andri]

What good has the Church done though ?

All i can think of is that they maybe had a hand in brokering peace between the kingdom and the empire in the beginning, but even that was probably done more to divide the continent so it would be easier to manage, and make the empire weaker in case the emperor would ever revolt against the church.

But i agree, a fifth route focussing on the Dragonish people like Flayn and her Dad without it just being the church route would have been nice.
Just replace all the battles with Fishing competitions, final boss is casting the rod into the darkness of the Z place, and yeeting Sothis back into the realm of the living.

 

[Raysoul]

I remember playing Golden Deer and they all live happily ever after, at least the ones that didn't die, so I think it is really the third path.

Claude really is the CEO of anti-racism.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Yeah, i'm not saying said third route would be the "right" one like it is with fates. Would just be something different as I think byleth should have more of a free will character wise in what they become.

 

[PBalfredo]

As much as Edelgard stans that only played Crimson Flower might like to argue this, the Church of Seiros isn't a JRPG Evil Church. It's a flawed organization with some shady practices in some aspects, as well as nearly a millennium of baggage in the form of Those Who Slither. But the game's central premise isn't "Church Bad".

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Can we please not be insinuating that anyone who sides with Edelgard or against Rhea has only played Crimson Flower and thus don't know the whole deal? The game has been out for half a year now, more than enough time for more than one play-through. Maybe assume differing opinions are legitimate without have to throw out low-key accusations of ignorance.

Especially since there is plenty of reasons not to like the church presented in other routes. Like literally everything about Abyss. Rhea and the church are running a ghetto underneath the monastery, filled with those persecuted by Fodlan's society for being foreigners or worshiping other gods, as well as the sick and poor. The outcasts are stuck living in a slum town in Garreg Mach's dank catacombs, unable to go anywhere else because the church which gives them this meager sanctuary also maintains the systems of oppression that exclude them from living anywhere else in Fodlan. And even then they live with the threat of a purge at the whims of the church hanging over their heads.

That status quo of Fodlan is fucked.

What good has the Church done though ?

All i can think of is that they maybe had a hand in brokering peace between the kingdom and the empire in the beginning, but even that was probably done more to divide the continent so it would be easier to manage, and make the empire weaker in case the emperor would ever revolt against the church.

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Even in that case the church, which was suppose to mediate, recognized the Kingdom's sovereignty in exchange for proselytization rights in the Kingdom, assuring the Seiros faith was the religion of the Holy Kingdom. Mediators are not suppose to get anything for themselves out of negotiations, but the church helped itself to some quid-pro-quo.

 

[Dyle]

That's the Golden Deer route. Byleth ends up as the leader of the church and I felt like it was heavily implied that Byleth would impose such sweeping changes that it would be a completely different institution. The numerous routes result in there simply not being enough time or development resources to flesh out each individual branch more than that, plus it would all be stuff that occurs in a time of relative peace which wouldn't have been a good fit for the game's structure even if they could do more with it.

 

[Deleted member 49438]

Aside from all of that, i'm just a big sucker for multi-faction conflicts as it adds a lot more flavor to numerous elements. I know of course that other parts of the game would've needed to change, especially when it comes to the story. But the possibility of what could've been is really interesting to think about and while I love the Ashen Wolves and the game itself, sometimes I do wish we would've been treated more to a "Conquest" style expansion instead.

**Note: I'm a new Fire Emblem fan and have only played everything released after Awakening. So if prior games did this i'd like to know. Since that would be something i'd like to see remade.

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If this is what you're looking for, I highly recommend the Radiant duology (Path of Radiance for Gamecube & Radiant Dawn for Wii). Of course physical editions of the game are quite pricy but I presume there are ways to play them for people sufficiently motivated.. If you're into multi-faction conflicts, then boy is Radiant Dawn up your alley (although I wouldn't say it's expertly done in it's structure), whereas Path of Radiance kind of sets the stage for everything in Radiant Dawn. Those two were the ones with the most well done turmoil in regards to Politics & Religion in the series prior to Three Houses (imo).

Back to your original point though.

I agree it would have been a lot of fun to see a route where you could overturn the Church & Edelgard, and I can see why people wouldn't call that a "golden route" in the sense that everything is saved, but I think that would almost be "too satisfying." The routes are supposed to each have their moral grey areas (imo). All of the people who side with the Church are siding with Rhea, a Tyrannical leader who has lied to her followers for generations & has literally no issue wiping out an entire city of her own people to take out Edelgard & Byleth in the Crimson Flower route; and if you support Edelgard you're upending years of "relative peace" as the narrator describes it and trampling other nations underfoot as you do it. If you get to be this kind of "ultimate justice" route, I feel like it would impact the perception of the other routes in a negative manner (or at least it would for me personally). You'd also have to find a good enough way to write this route that doesn't just feel like Byleth becoming their own version of Edelgard.

 

[The Adder]

but even that was probably done more to divide the continent so it would be easier to manage, and make the empire weaker in case the emperor would ever revolt against the church.

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Don't buy into Edelgard's propaganda so easily. This was never supported by anything in the game (given that brokering the peaceful secession of the Kingdom is what damaged the close relationship between the Central Church and Adrestia in the first place, the Empire splitting in two weakened the Church) and, as of Cindered Shadows, is factually wrong.

Spoiler

the Argarthans supplied Loog with relic weapons and a talented tactician to wage his war and weaken the Church by splitting the Empire.

Even in that case the church, which was suppose to mediate, recognized the Kingdom's sovereignty in exchange for proselytization rights in the Kingdom, assuring the Seiros faith was the religion of the Holy Kingdom. Mediators are not suppose to get anything for themselves out of negotiations, but the church helped itself to some quid-pro-quo.

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I mean, your last sentence is historically false. And I'm sure every nation or power would be all too happy to let their enemies get a foothold in a new nation after succeeding in the war they supported. Unlike that evil Church who made sure to maintain a presence in a territory where they were aware Argarthans were operating.

Fodlan's society for being foreigners or worshiping other gods

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You should maybe listen to the actual way in which the veiled woman wound up in Abyss. She worships at the pagan shrine because there is no other place for her to worship her gods, but she's not down there for worshipping other gods.

That status quo of Fodlan is fucked.

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Yes it is.

maintains the systems of oppression that exclude them from living anywhere else in Fodlan.

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No they do not.

 

[dodo]

the fact there is no "perfect" ideological route is what makes the game good. it'd be terribly boring if there was a route where nobody got their hands dirty and everyone got what they wanted.

 

[wwm0nkey]

I just kinda felt like Golden Deer actually ended the story where as Blue and Black just kinda...end

 

[Bovine]

The funny thing is that people forget that the Empire was losing the War of the Eagle and Lion, and if the Church didn't step in the Empire would have likely been destroyed.

I wish that there was some branching in both the Blue Lions and Golden Deer path (Blue Lions apparently did have one that was cut) but it probably would have taken even more work. The game was pretty ambitious as is.

 

[PBalfredo]

I mean, your last sentence is historically false. And I'm sure every nation or power would be all too happy to let their enemies get a foothold in a new nation after succeeding in the war they supported. Unlike that evil Church who made sure to maintain a presence in a territory where they were aware Argarthans were operating.

You should maybe listen to the actual way in which the veiled woman wound up in Abyss. She worships at the pagan shrine because there is no other place for her to worship her gods, but she's not down there for worshipping other gods.

Yes it is.


No they do not.

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Rhea never had a clue that the Argarthans even still existed until after White Clouds, let alone before that. So you can't back-fill her self-dealings with the Kingdom as being motivated by countering an enemy she was completely unaware of.

Mysterious Woman
: Abyss is where I offer my prayers to my gods. It is the only place. The goddess of Fódlan is not one of my gods, but the statue here is not one of my gods either. I offer my prayers here all the same, because Abyss is where it is allowed.

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She's not in Abyss just because it is a place to worship her gods (the shrine isn't even to her gods!) but it's the only place where it's allowed to worship other gods other than Sothis.

 

[HylianSeven]

I get your point but at the same time I also like that there was no "perfect" route, making you have to make a hard choice in who to side with (if you're playing Black Eagles).

Even so, Golden Deer and Blue Lions have slightly different relationships with the church. Claude & the Alliance are very leery of the church and Claude has tons of questions for Rhea once you rescue her. The Kingdom is devoted to the church and Dimitri basically wanted to see it restored.

If ANYTHING would be a third route, I think it should somehow involve Those Who Slither In The Dark. I was hoping Cindered Shadows would tell us anything about them, but I feel like an entire underground faction that has technology similar to modern tech (like fucking ballistic missiles) had a lot more they could do with it. Their story of how they got forced underground for trying to "play god" could easily be revealed to be a lot more sad and actually have one redeeming factor about them. Their leadership is 100% evil and there's zero redeeming them in the game, but you have to wonder how they got that way in the first place.

At the very least, maybe have a route of defeating Those Who Slither In The Dark, but not destroying Shamballa and utilizing the technology against the Church and Empire. The obvious downfalls of that are using something so destructive like the missiles to obliterate entire civilizations like the Empire and Church.

 

[Garrod Ran]

At the very least, maybe have a route of defeating Those Who Slither In The Dark, but not destroying Shamballa and utilizing the technology against the Church and Empire. The obvious downfalls of that are using something so destructive like the missiles to obliterate entire civilizations like the Empire and Church.

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give bernadetta a gun

 

[mindsale]

It's got -
Ally with Church in theocracy (Blue Lions)
Have skeptical, secular partnership (Golden Deer)
Outward antagonism toward church (Black Eagles)
Playing as the damn Church (Silver Snow Path)

It's got literally every option.

 

[HylianSeven]

give bernadetta a gun

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[The Adder]

Rhea never had a clue that the Argarthans even still existed until after White Clouds, let alone before that. So you can't back-fill her self-dealings with the Kingdom as being motivated by countering an enemy she was completely unaware of.

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There is literally report on it from the Knights Seiros' intelligence branch. The Church didn't know they were still around in modern times, they knew they were still active then.

She's not in Abyss just because it is a place to worship her gods (the shrine isn't even to her gods!) but it's the only place where it's allowed to worship other gods other than Sothis

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I need you to respond to what I say, not to what you want to respond to. I expressly said she's not in Abyss for worshipping other gods.

She's in Abyss because she was kidnapped from her home, has nothing, and no way back.

"There was a time when i did much fighting. Then I was captured. Then... I escaped. My home is far away now. My mother is waiting, but returning is... It is far away."

Given what we know of the setting, she's most likely an escaped Dagdan prisoner. And unlike Shamir she doesn't enjoy the luxury of the Church or Empire's employ.

 

[Glio]

you end GD as the pope and in charge of the whole continent so you kinda already do that? GD already includes the church and removes the old order, in fact the old order doesn't stay in basically any route if I remember correctly, you either kill the church or you end up the pope

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In GD you end as king/queen, not pope

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Having a route where you can just say screw everyone I'm doing what's right would undermine the games themes entirely. They were entirely right to not have a golden ending route.

 

[The Adder]

In GD you end as king/queen, not pope

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You're technically both. If Seteth is still around, he runs the Church, but Rhea left you with authority over it and that was never revoked.

You're, effectively, God-King Byleth.

 

[The Adder]

and a change to the system that exists in Almyra seems like a Claude thing to do.

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As Claude himself comes to find out from Cyril's life experience, the whole social stratification thing isn't an exclusively Fodlan issue. Almyra has the same problems.

It's not the Church, it's people. The Church is responsible for not doing anything to actively change things (even though they're ideologically opposed to the current system of nobility).

EDIT: Bah! Sorry about the double. Meant to edit this into my last post.

 

[PBalfredo]

There is literally report on it from the Knights Seiros' intelligence branch. The Church didn't know they were still around in modern times, they knew they were still active then.

I need you to respond to what I say, not to what you want to respond to. I expressly said she's not in Abyss for worshipping other gods.

She's in Abyss because she was kidnapped from her home, has nothing, and no way back.

"There was a time when i did much fighting. Then I was captured. Then... I escaped. My home is far away now. My mother is waiting, but returning is... It is far away."

Given what we know of the setting, she's most likely an escaped Dagdan prisoner. And unlike Shamir she doesn't enjoy the luxury of the Church or Empire's employ.

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Unless the author of the report alternates between referring to themselves in the first and third person, I believe it's a report by a third party.

"I harbor doubts..." vs "The shadowed order of the Knights of Seiros believes that..."

I'm not saying she was rounded up and thrown into Abyss for worshiping other gods. I'm saying that people are excluded from worshiping other gods on the surface, leaving the only place where it is tolerated being a dank pit at the peripheral of society. The fact that she originally wound up in Abyss because she's from Dagda doesn't diminish that her dialog highlights the religious persecution in Fodlan. And the fact that she's still stuck in Abyss well after the war further underscores the persecution of foreigners.

 

[The Adder]

Unless the author of the report alternates between referring to themselves in the first and third person, I believe it's a report by a third party.

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1stly: Do... do you refer to your job/organizations you're a part of in the first person?

2ndly: This report is written by several different people. These events were decades and centuries apart. Which is kind of irrelevant since

3rdly: Regardless, it's clearly been in the possession of the church. Hell, the last entry is pretty clearly an explanation for why the Church believes the TWSitD is gone. They were silent for nearly two centuries and the next two events the chirch is keeping their eye on as possibly being linked they don't see any connection (because they stopped operating in the open and infiltrated the Empire instead).

 

[Disclaimer]

People tend to drastically overestimate the extent of hard power and influence the Church had in practicality. It was far from a perfect organization, but it wasn't evil, nor even the fundamental facilitator of Fodlan's core systemic issues in Crests/Nobility. Quite the opposite.

• Seteth tells Ingrid outright that he doesn't agree with the current Crest system, or the expectations on their bearers.
• Seteth, at the very beginning of the game, tells Byleth that the Church separates commoners' and nobles' living quarters because of pressure by the nobility.
• Despite Rhea as Archbishop personally demonstrating favor for Cyril, many members of the clergy and knights express bigotry toward Almyrans. (Because people are people, and many will discard the positive examples of authority figures whose actions don't confirm their own biases.)

The Church is in a symbiotic relationship with the nobility, and only have the power that they do because the nobility plays ball with them. As we see late in White Clouds, the Knights of Seiros, while elite, are much smaller in scale than the three territories' armies. Even before that, they're completely occupied against the Western Church alone, such that students have to supplement their duties.

Rhea and Seteth aren't leading a revolution against Fodlan's stratification because they lack the power; they're one voice, soft power checked by the hard power of the nobility. And their main goal is to play the long game until they can revive Sothis. In service of that goal, they've maintained a millennia of relative peace, such that it's been centuries since the last full-scale intranational battle. (That's a good thing.)

Yeah, they could have done more. Absolutely. But they aren't quite in the position to revolutionize that Edelgard was. They're kind of opposites: Edelgard starts her revolution partly because she has nothing to lose, knowing her life will be short, and because she has the entire Empire's strength to leverage. Rhea and Seteth are more-or-less immortals, and to serve their ultimate goal of the Goddess' revival -- and presumably also the revival of their very species -- they have to survive, and to do that they strive to maintain peace and stability.

We only need to look as far as Dimitri's father King Lambert in order to see what Fodlan's nobility will do against their leadership when they seek to reform too radically. Rhea and Seteth can't risk Nabatean extinction.

The Book of Seiros, Part II states pretty plainly that the Church strongly disapproves of and shames the nobility's greed and relentless pursuit of Crests:

"The descendants of the Heroes sought their ancestors' power, and thusly their blood. In time, they amassed Crests, Relics, land, and wealth, using it all to set the land aflame with war. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, all because of the greed of humanity. The goddess grieved and, heartbroken, hid herself in the heavens from whence she came."

But it's something of a catch 22, because the Church also has to do what it can to prevent non-Crest-bearers from wielding Relics, lest Black Beasts be created. And Relics, likewise, can't be removed, because they're instrumental in Fodlan's defense (see: the Lance of Ruin being the main defensive multipler against Sreng), as well as the last vestiges of the Nabateans.

 

[PBalfredo]

1stly: Do... do you refer to your job/organizations you're a part of in the first person?

2ndly: This report is written by several different people. These events were decades and centuries apart. Which is kind of irrelevant since

3rdly: Regardless, it's clearly been in the possession of the church. Hell, the last entry is pretty clearly an explanation for why the Church believes the TWSitD is gone. They were silent for nearly two centuries and the next two events the chirch is keeping their eye on as possibly being linked they don't see any connection (because they stopped operating in the open and infiltrated the Empire instead).

Click to shrink...

Yeah: "we". It's the first person plural.

 

[The Adder]

Yeah: "we". It's the first person plural.

Click to shrink...

That's referring to you and your organization, not your organization. Your criticism was their mobing between the first person and the third when the first example is clearly them referring to his own observations and the second is the belief of the organization as an entity, whether or not they agree. The same way official releases from various government agencies often use "it is the belief of the X department that Y" instead of "it is our belief".

If your question was "why aren't they using self-inclusive language in the second report" that would be my answer.

 

[PBalfredo]

People tend to drastically overestimate the extent of hard power and influence the Church had in practicality. It was far from a perfect organization, but it wasn't evil, nor even the fundamental facilitator of Fodlan's core systemic issues in Crests/Nobility. Quite the opposite.

• Seteth tells Ingrid outright that he doesn't agree with the current Crest system, or the expectations on their bearers.
• Seteth, at the very beginning of the game, tells Byleth that the Church separates commoners' and nobles' living quarters because of pressure by the nobility.
• Despite Rhea as Archbishop personally demonstrating favor for Cyril, many members of the clergy and knights express bigotry toward Almyrans. (Because people are people, and many will discard the positive examples of authority figures whose actions don't confirm their own biases.)

The Church is in a symbiotic relationship with the nobility, and only have the power that they do because the nobility plays ball with them. As we see late in White Clouds, the Knights of Seiros, while elite, are much smaller in scale than the three territories' armies. Even before that, they're completely occupied against the Western Church alone, such that students have to supplement their duties.

Rhea and Seteth aren't leading a revolution against Fodlan's stratification because they lack the power; they're one voice, soft power checked by the hard power of the nobility. And their main goal is to play the long game until they can revive Sothis. In service of that goal, they've maintained a millennia of relative peace, such that it's been centuries since the last full-scale intranational battle. (That's a good thing.)

Yeah, they could have done more. Absolutely. But they aren't quite in the position to revolutionize that Edelgard was. They're kind of opposites: Edelgard starts her revolution partly because she has nothing to lose, knowing her life will be short, and because she has the entire Empire's strength to leverage. Rhea and Seteth are more-or-less immortals, and to serve their ultimate goal of the Goddess' revival -- and presumably also the revival of their very species -- they have to survive, and to do that they strive to maintain peace and stability.

We only need to look as far as Dimitri's father King Lambert in order to see what Fodlan's nobility will do against their leadership when they seek to reform too radically. Rhea and Seteth can't risk Nabatean extinction.

The Book of Seiros, Part II states pretty plainly that the Church strongly disapproves of and shames the nobility's greed and relentless pursuit of Crests:

"The descendants of the Heroes sought their ancestors' power, and thusly their blood. In time, they amassed Crests, Relics, land, and wealth, using it all to set the land aflame with war. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, all because of the greed of humanity. The goddess grieved and, heartbroken, hid herself in the heavens from whence she came."

But it's something of a catch 22, because the Church also has to do what it can to prevent non-Crest-bearers from wielding Relics, lest Black Beasts be created. And Relics, likewise, can't be removed, because they're instrumental in Fodlan's defense (see: the Lance of Ruin being the main defensive multipler against Sreng), as well as the last vestiges of the Nabateans.

Click to shrink...

It's not a lack of means that causes the church to keep the nobility in power, it's a lack of will. All of this just illustrates how the church is intertwined an a symbolic relationship with the nobility, and despite some grousing by Seteth (who has only been in the picture for less than the last 20 years) the church has no intention of dismantling the nobility. Some mild push-and-pull by the two groups does not translate into being against the existence of the nobility. Even the shaming of the 10 Elites in the Book of Seiros isn't to make the case for why the nobility shouldn't exist, but just to pressure their descendants to be good and pious little nobles who come to church and are deserving of the blessings of the goddess.

As it stands, the church is happy to keep this dance going indefinitely, all with the delusional hope that one day Sothis will be revived. There is probably some vague hope that Sothis would somehow make everything right by virtue of being the goddess, but really the goal is more for Rhea's personal emotional fulfillment than any real plan for Fodlan's future.

In the meantime the church, despite some muttering under their breath will still avert their eyes from the nobility's misdeeds and its poisonous effect on Fodlan as long as the church maintains their soft power over the nobility. Soft power which doesn't have a great track record of keeping the peace really, since there have been numerous succession wars, petty disputes between nobles (Lorenz' paralogue for example), battles with foreign nations in every direction and no one from the church lifted a finger to stop the genocide of Duscur.

 

[The Adder]

Even the shaming of the 10 Elites in the Book of Seiros isn't to make the case for why the nobility shouldn't exist, but just to pressure their descendants to be good and pious little nobles who come to church and are deserving of the blessings of the goddess.

Click to shrink...

Posts like this give me the strong impression you willfully misconstrue the literal text of the game to better suit what you want the game to be saying. Because I've posted the passage in question multiple times when this comes up and you never seem to actually acknowledge the content of the text. Even here you're going on about "shaming the 10 Elites" when that text has nothing to do with that.

 

[PBalfredo]

Posts like this give me the strong impression you willfully misconstrue the literal text of the game to better suit what you want the game to be saying. Because I've posted the passage in question multiple times when this comes up and you never seem to actually acknowledge the content of the text. Even here you're going on about "shaming the 10 Elites" when that text has nothing to do with that.

Click to shrink...

Who else could it be referring to since that passage seems to be referring to a bunch who "lit the land aflame with war" using their relics, aka the war of Nemesis and his 10 Elite against the followers of Seiros? Nothing else about the Book of Seiros really aligns with actual history. The official history has relics being created for humanity before the war and the goddess leaving humanity (aka dying) after the war, when the opposite is true.

If you have a different interpretation of how the wonky fake history of the church aligns any, if at all, with what actually happens, then say so instead of saying I'm willfully misconstruing anything.