Gangs is still enjoyable for most of it. I've always heard Boxcar Bertha is his worst but I've never bothered to watch it for that reason.
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First critic reviews for Scorsese’s THE IRISHMAN
- Thread starter Scullibundo
- Start date
Gangs is still enjoyable for most of it. I've always heard Boxcar Bertha is his worst but I've never bothered to watch it for that reason.
You mean the trilogy of Mean Streets, Goodfellas and Casino?
This is more apt than Mean Streets since it continues the DeNiro/Pesci combo
But with Mean Streets the trilogy goes from people in the bottom hierarchy to middle to top.
Martin Scorsese mob films enticed my younger self to know more about movies. I grew always wanting him to tackle another one in the genre, the film is made, supposedly it's great and I cannot see it on a fucking movie theater? Fuck this shitty ass industry and where we are going towards to.
scorcese did well freeing himself from dead weight dicaprio. shame he will be back in his next movies.
Said like someone who hasn't seen boxcar bertha, the actual only legitimate bad movie he has ever made.
Yeah Boxcar Bertha is not good. It's watchable if one is curious about Scorsese's beginnings. Though I guess it's better to just watch Big Shave.
My gf is lucky this movie drops on Netflix right after the limited release. She has trouble with wanting to go to a 2+ hour movie in theaters, and especially a 3 or close to 3 hour movies. And this movie is 3.5. Lmao.
Anyway looking forward to Scorsese's next gangster masterpiece.
Cinema chains are boycotting this film. In my country, Vue and Picturehouse are refusing to show it. Netflix films don't get much offline marketing.
I took my wife to an 189 min arthouse Turkish film (The Wild Pear Tree) at a cinema but I didn't tell how long it was and she did it of love for me. We both didn't end up liking the film but I applaud for her giving into my tastes. A Scorsese film should be a way easier sell (just don't mention the runtime! lol) by comparison plus if she truly loves you, she might give in 😉
Trust me she's looking the runtime up herself. I'll just wait for Netflix most likely.
Also she gave in for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood lol.
Oh man, Wild Pear Tree was fantastic, one of the best films of last year (and the outdoors were filmed so beautifully), such a shame you didn't enjoy it.
Given that Scorsese's longer films don't feel nearly as long as they actually are I just hope it won't be a dealbreaker for many. I just wish I had an opportunity to see it at a cinema.
It s fully boycotted here, no theater release. 27th November on Netflix only.
I am sad.
That's probably it's biggest hurdle to winning it and probably why Roma didn't win this year. Scorsese may get director though.
I think the first hour and last half hour are really good but it's far too baggy in the middle.
two more 5/5 reviews have been added to RT today
I'm inclined towards the theory presented by the author of the source material. Killed by Sheeran in a house and cremated at a mob-controlled morgue then dumped in a compacted barrel.
I'm assuming this will be present in the film.
isn't there hints in the book too that Sheeran had something to do with JFK's assassination?
Damn wish you had replied earlier. They just went out I think https://sffilm.org/event/the-irishman/
It's been a long time since I read the book but it suggested that Sheeran was tangential at best to the mob's involvement in the JFK/RK assassinations. The US government at the time used mob informants and other organized crime connections as a buffer layer between the federal government and the anti-Castro rebels they were trying to organize against the Cuban government at the time. Multiple sources have discussed the link between organized crime and the recruitment efforts that lead to the Bay of Pigs invasion which was a massively embarrassing clusterfuck. There's a fair bit of evidence substantiating this specific link but the details from here jump into speculative territory so take this with a grain of salt.
The theory is that the mob was feeling pressure from JFK and RK following the Bay of Pigs disaster and their relationship via informants began to deteriorate. They perceived a lot of hostility and pressure coming from JFK/RK which led to them collaborating with the same Cubans they already had a relationship with to plot Kennedy's eventual assassination. I believe it reiterated that Oswald acted alone but it was Sheeran who provided the weapons he was trained with and the specific Carcano rifle that was eventually used.
Once again, everything past the fairly well documented mob role in the Cuban affairs is relatively unsubstantiated and essentially a conspiracy theory that very few people were likely involved in. It's the only JFK conspiracy theory that I think has some plausibility to it, even if I think the ultimate scope of the conspiracy (if there was one) is exceedingly small and localized to a few mobsters at the time.
While it's likely Sheeren may have had a hand in it, there's no conclusive evidence that he did kill Hoffa. There is also the fact that there's others who made this caim as well, and regardless of who actually did it, the likelihood is that the man was murdered by the Mob for working with them. A number of victims of the Criminal Syndicate ended up being dumped in cornfields in Indiana, at least on the Chicago side, New York has it where they were placed in places in New Jersey and other locations.
The FBI is still working on the case, testing the floorboards every few years to see if they can pick up on whos DNA is there. There's still I think a reward for any info about it from Hoffa's family, who's wife died from grief and illness of her missing husband. While Sheeran claims to have been the murder, and this film will probably paint him as the sympathic suspect, there has been no proof that he did it and even the DNA of the blood has, to this day, been not confirmed to be Hoffa's as of 2016, making it likely that Sheeran wanted to seem like the one behind this.
Other suspects, and ones that the FBI are still invested in, Charle "Chuckie" O'Brian, who was a friend of Hoffa's, is the most likely suspect who may have had a direct hand in his death. He was the highest ranked suspect on the list as his direct connection to Hoffa and the men that were likely the ones to call the hit on him ( Anthony Provenzano -also known as Tony Pro, and Anthony Giacalone, -also known as Tony Jack, who helped set up the meeting between Hoffa and Tony Pro). Tony Pro apparently had once been his (Hoffa's) friend while he was in power. During the time after he'd gone to Jail for some various crimes, Hoffa was alledgedly turning states evidence against the mob, which made Tony Pro his enemy, as well as Hoffa calling Pro "Crazy". Tony Pro was also known to have threated Hoffa physically saying he would gut him and pull his guts out and do something to his granddaughters. Provenzano also was known for murdering off two of his Poltical oppenets and assulting anyone that got in his way. (Tony Pro died in Jail in 1988 after being convicted of another murder for hire.) Tony Jack was part of the Detroit mob and was an pal of Tony Pro, he later was suspected along with his younger brother Vito of being part of the disapperence of Jimmy Hoffa. He died in 2001.
Regarding Chuckie O'Brian, apparently in 2001 after DNA was used from a hair brush that was Hoffa's strands of Hair from Hoffa were found in Chuckie's Car and tested postive. Meaning that Hoffa had been in the car with Chuckie at some point, even though Chuckie denied any connection to the murder.
Other suspects have been: Harold Konigsberg -a mob enforcer who worked with Tony Pro on a later murder, Richard Kuklinski -a contract Killer for the Mob who claimed that they burned Hoffa's body in a drum then buried the drum, later to dig it up and crush it and sell it for scrap parts in Japan when the heat was on. Thomas and Stephen Andretta, a pair of teamster brothers that worked for the mob and Tony Pro, Tom refused to comment on the death of Hoffa when questioned about it in prison for Rackettering as he was a hit man for them as well.
While not directly associated with the murder Tony Zerilli -another Mob member, claimed that Hoffa was burried in a shallow grave in Okland Michigan, the FBI dug there for three days with no human remains found.
It has been suggested by Professer James Buccellato, a professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Northern Arizona University, that Hoffa was killed at the house of Carlo Licata, the son of mobster Nick Licata. He also, as per what the movie suggests, believes that Hoffa was cremated and dumped.
It's been allued to by Michael Franzese , former mobster of the Colombo family, now a motivational speaker and has a organization that helps others that are involved in crime family's get out and find a way to atone for their crimes and help the communities and themselves, to knowing who killed Hoffa and where the body is. He was on an interview most recently with DJ Vlad (Probably in for the Irishman movie), and spoke of the fact that others in the Mob know who did it but that it's something no one wants to talk about for fear of retrubution and the like. However he pointed out that the person that commited the crime is still alive and in Jail as of this point and time, and that according to him "I can tell you the body is very wet," -leading some to speculate that Hoffa may be in a body of water in New Jersey or New York.
The FBI still has this as an open case and it will remain as such. Hoffa's Son and daughter still maintain that their father's case should be investigated. Hoffa's son is a highly respected Teamster President who has been apointed in various Federal and National posts by two sitting President's (Bush and Obama) and has actively worked to make Unions stronger organizations. He's heavily anti-Mob, as far as I've read, and has a webblog on Huffington post about various things regarding Unions. You can read up about him on Wiki, he's an interesting guy.
Hoffa's Daughter became a lawyer that fought for Union and labor rights, she later was apointed as a Judge in Missouri and then Assistant AG of the state focusing on Chief Counsel of the Division of Civil Disability and Workers Rights.
Yet to be seen how the two of them view this version of their father. Jimmy Hoffa has been critical of various books and movies that paint his father in a bad light.
Interesting thank you.... now I know frank was Irish and not Italian, do you know if he became a made man. Didn't the Mafia used to make exceptions for some people that could become made without being full Italian
While I'm sure the movie is well shot and is probably right up there with other films from Marty in regard to his Mobster gonna look cool but are bad guys films. (And no this is not a dig, it's kind of how he tends to paint things, bad men do bad things we think they are bad but they are also charming enough that we want to be buddies with the Mob.)
My main issue is that the source that he uses is pure on nonsense. Sheeren may have had ties to the Mob, but the author seems to be making a lot of things up or Sheeran was telling him a lot of BS. Sheeren Claims to have murdered Crazy Joe Gallo, but several eyewitnesses, including Gallo's wife, pointed out Sonny Di Biase and his associates were the killer, not Sheeran. Also the Author Charles Brandt says that Detective Joe Coffey, who was a lead investigator of the case, claimed it was Sheeran who killed Gallo, however Detective Coffey's own book from 1992 contridicts it (his memoirs about cases that he's dealt with connected to the Mob) pointing to four short Italian Men, who match Di Biase's apperence. To quote Nick Gage of the NYT and WSJ, who covered and still covers the Mob for the papers, "I haven't read the script of The Irishman, but the book on which it is based is the most fabricated mafia tale since the fake autobiography of Lucky Luciano 40 years ago." -Slate (Should tell you a lot about the story you're about to see.)
Sheeran claims he brought in a bribe to Nixion to get Hoffa off, but this is mostly contridicted by the fact that Tony Pro actually was seen Golfing with Nixon after he left office, indicating that the person, if there was a bribe at all given to the sitting president at the time, was probably Tony Pro and not Sheeran.
Of note and of interest to others, Sheeran previously in 1995 and 2001 said that he did not commit the crime. Brandlt even says that Agent Garrity, the man that was in charge of the Missing Hoffa case for the FBI said that it was likely Sheeran, but... "In fact, Garrity's 57-page Hoffex memo states that while Sheeran was present in Detroit at the time and was likely involved in some way in the plot, it was actually mafia enforcer Salvatore "Sally Bugs" Briguglio who was "involved in [the] actual disappearance" of Hoffa. Prior to confessing, Sheeran had himself stated that Briguglio killed Hoffa. This is in line with the version of Hoffa's disappearance that has become the most widely accepted, that Sheeran, who was a friend of Hoffa, was possibly present in the car to put Hoffa at ease on the way to the "meeting," but it was Briguglio who played a key role in the murder". -Slate
Sheeran also claims that Hoffa had him kill rivals and the like, something his family disputes and Brandlt is the only book that's written on Hoffa that paints him as such. Brandlt also helped with the script for this, which makes me think that he's going to put in the Gallo story and possibly the whole thing with Bobby Kennedy and Jack as well, painting himself as this great killer for the Mob when the most likely situation was that he was just a gofer for them. Brandlt has also openly lied about other authors, saying that they also heard from Sheeran that he killed Hoffa, which is again nonsense.
Actually what's really interesting right now is a lot of people that do an incredible amount of reseach not only about Hoffa but the connections of the Teamsters back then to the Mob, are pissed at this Movie because it's painting things all wrong.
According to NYT Reporter Selwyn Raab there have been 14 people claiming the murder of Hoffa, but you can't disprove any of them because...no body and no evidence, that's why it's still an open case. Then there's the awesome Author Dan Moldea, who wrote Hoffa Wars and spent 40 years on researching the Teamsters and Hoffa, and as he put it " He says that Frank Sheeran "was definitely involved, but he confessed to a murder he didn't commit." Moldea expressed anger that his research, including interviews with over 1,000 people, was overlooked by Hollywood for a book that was based almost entirely on the word of one man, who was a convicted felon."
On top of that not only was Sheeran caught forging a letter from Hoffa which was why the Book "I heard you Paint Houses" took three tries to be published because the publisher refused to publish material that was clearly a forgery, but an interview with Maria Shriver that was supposed to air on NBC but had to be pulled because of all of Frank's lies that he was caught in. Then there's the fact that Brandlt basically is trying to silence critics of the work calling them to prove the Sheeran didn't kill Hoffa, and that he and his publisher are viewing them as "Borderline Libel."
My main issue with this film is the same issue I had with Marty's other "Based on True stories" Mob tellings, it paints the Mob in this weird light that you want to feel for these killers, and distorts the history of the actual event. It's really annoying when that happens because now people are going to go and buy this book and ignore books like "Hoffa Wars" which is a stronger and far more representative take on what was really going down, rather than this fictional drival that a guy created so that he didn't die without leaving his family some money.
Again, strong movie, but bad story in this case.
My main issue is that the source that he uses is pure on nonsense. Sheeren may have had ties to the Mob, but the author seems to be making a lot of things up or Sheeran was telling him a lot of BS. Sheeren Claims to have murdered Crazy Joe Gallo, but several eyewitnesses, including Gallo's wife, pointed out Sonny Di Biase and his associates were the killer, not Sheeran. Also the Author Charles Brandt says that Detective Joe Coffey, who was a lead investigator of the case, claimed it was Sheeran who killed Gallo, however Detective Coffey's own book from 1992 contridicts it (his memoirs about cases that he's dealt with connected to the Mob) pointing to four short Italian Men, who match Di Biase's apperence. To quote Nick Gage of the NYT and WSJ, who covered and still covers the Mob for the papers, "I haven't read the script of The Irishman, but the book on which it is based is the most fabricated mafia tale since the fake autobiography of Lucky Luciano 40 years ago." -Slate (Should tell you a lot about the story you're about to see.)
Sheeran claims he brought in a bribe to Nixion to get Hoffa off, but this is mostly contridicted by the fact that Tony Pro actually was seen Golfing with Nixon after he left office, indicating that the person, if there was a bribe at all given to the sitting president at the time, was probably Tony Pro and not Sheeran.
Of note and of interest to others, Sheeran previously in 1995 and 2001 said that he did not commit the crime. Brandlt even says that Agent Garrity, the man that was in charge of the Missing Hoffa case for the FBI said that it was likely Sheeran, but... "In fact, Garrity's 57-page Hoffex memo states that while Sheeran was present in Detroit at the time and was likely involved in some way in the plot, it was actually mafia enforcer Salvatore "Sally Bugs" Briguglio who was "involved in [the] actual disappearance" of Hoffa. Prior to confessing, Sheeran had himself stated that Briguglio killed Hoffa. This is in line with the version of Hoffa's disappearance that has become the most widely accepted, that Sheeran, who was a friend of Hoffa, was possibly present in the car to put Hoffa at ease on the way to the "meeting," but it was Briguglio who played a key role in the murder". -Slate
Sheeran also claims that Hoffa had him kill rivals and the like, something his family disputes and Brandlt is the only book that's written on Hoffa that paints him as such. Brandlt also helped with the script for this, which makes me think that he's going to put in the Gallo story and possibly the whole thing with Bobby Kennedy and Jack as well, painting himself as this great killer for the Mob when the most likely situation was that he was just a gofer for them. Brandlt has also openly lied about other authors, saying that they also heard from Sheeran that he killed Hoffa, which is again nonsense.
Actually what's really interesting right now is a lot of people that do an incredible amount of reseach not only about Hoffa but the connections of the Teamsters back then to the Mob, are pissed at this Movie because it's painting things all wrong.
According to NYT Reporter Selwyn Raab there have been 14 people claiming the murder of Hoffa, but you can't disprove any of them because...no body and no evidence, that's why it's still an open case. Then there's the awesome Author Dan Moldea, who wrote Hoffa Wars and spent 40 years on researching the Teamsters and Hoffa, and as he put it " He says that Frank Sheeran "was definitely involved, but he confessed to a murder he didn't commit." Moldea expressed anger that his research, including interviews with over 1,000 people, was overlooked by Hollywood for a book that was based almost entirely on the word of one man, who was a convicted felon."
On top of that not only was Sheeran caught forging a letter from Hoffa which was why the Book "I heard you Paint Houses" took three tries to be published because the publisher refused to publish material that was clearly a forgery, but an interview with Maria Shriver that was supposed to air on NBC but had to be pulled because of all of Frank's lies that he was caught in. Then there's the fact that Brandlt basically is trying to silence critics of the work calling them to prove the Sheeran didn't kill Hoffa, and that he and his publisher are viewing them as "Borderline Libel."
My main issue with this film is the same issue I had with Marty's other "Based on True stories" Mob tellings, it paints the Mob in this weird light that you want to feel for these killers, and distorts the history of the actual event. It's really annoying when that happens because now people are going to go and buy this book and ignore books like "Hoffa Wars" which is a stronger and far more representative take on what was really going down, rather than this fictional drival that a guy created so that he didn't die without leaving his family some money.
Again, strong movie, but bad story in this case.
Well to be fair that's more interesting then if he painted every monster as just a complete 100 percent psychopath
That is something that I don't know. I'm still digging through the Hoffa Wars, which is really an interesting read about that time period and the whole situation with Jimmy hoffa. I don't think so though, because he wasn't actually that high up on the chain, and more likely he was used as a means of keeping Hoffa calm and so he didn't jump out of the car. Given that he died Bankrupt I don't think he actually had as close a relationship as they like to play off in the book or possibly the movie.
You only get that if you were someone that was close to the higher ups, as far as I know, and could prove a lot of loyalty. I'm not sure about Sheeran, but given his way of fabricating things, I don't see him as someone who was a Made Man. The Irish, as far as I've read, had mixed relations with the Italians, and the few that I know of that were not Italian but were Made Men, typically were people that had some really deep connections to the top officers and were usually someone that wouldn't rat out anyone and died with their secrets.
These three documentaries: The Definitive Guide To The Mob from Lionsgate, Inside the American Mob -from 2013 National Geographic, and The Mafia with Trevor McDonald covers things nicely.
One of the few voices about the Mob that openly talks about it is Micheal Franzese, he has six books about his life and connections with Organized Crime. I'd believe him more than I would believe Sheeran in regard to Hoffa since he was born into the Colombo Crime family and lived it until he litterally left the life in 1994 and moved to California in 1995 when he and his family had a number of life threats placed on them. (I don't know about now, but back in the 1990s and into the early 2000s he didn't travel to the North East at all out of fear of retaliation and he still doesn't talk about everything that happened to him to protect his family.)
So yeah, don't think he was a Made Man. He could have claimed it, but given how the Mob works and the fabrication that this guy had. Nah...It's one of the reasons that while I respect Marty as a film maker I really get annoyed by his choices of stories. He, unintentionally, tends to glamorize the world of the Mob and it really isn't that way at all. You have friends killing friends and in some cases your life is in constant threat. One slip up and you can die. It's a really screwed up exisitance.
Marty actually made the point I believe that he didn't care about the historicity of events as much. The movie was more about experiencing Frank's psychology
I'm fine with him creating sympathy, but my issue, at least with this movie, is that Sheeran is a bold faced liar that got caught forging documentation and lying so blatently in an interview with Maria Shriver that they couldn't use it. Brandlt accuising anyone of criticising his work calling them basically libel and acting like other writers who have been delving into this case for far longer and have, as in the case of Dan, interviewed over 1,000 people about the subject matter, are in the wrong and that they have to prove that Sheeran didn't do it. We know for a fact that the guy is lying about Gallo.
As I said as a work of fiction it's a fine film, but people are going to come out of it thinking Sheeran is this awesome hitman when it's been shown that he really isn't. And it hurts cases like Hoffa's that are mob connected because then real killers get away with it because of Men like Sheeran who want to make a name for themselves after the fact. It's cruel to the victims family, and the Hoffa family are probably going to have to deal with this BS again wiith this film and the accuations about their dad. I just don't like that it's going to have the same "It's a true story this is how it went down" sort of thing, like what happened after Casino and Goodfella's came out. This is still an ongoing case and muddying the waters of it is not a good thing. Hopefully at some point there will be tech out there that can at least give us an idea of where Hoffa is buried so they can put him to rest beside his wife, something that she requested I read.
And that's fine, but Sheeran's character is not the best person to do this with. Someone like Micheal Franzese, who was a character in Goodfella's, would make more of an interesting profile on this. He changed his views while in prison reflecting on his life and he was born into that life too. So it would fit right in with the whole Christian aspect that Marty also does as well. But I think he likes the idea of a death Bed confession over someone who actually managed to turn his life fully around and is helping others get out of that life.
I'm sure it's an amazing movie, but Marty, damn it, you're making things tricky for people to understand why the Mob is still really a screwed up thing.
Oh is agree franks story seems the most ridiculous compared to say Henry hills or lefty rosenstein
So many inconsistencies with it too. Henry and Lefty both were, for the most part, decent people, not perfect but you could see there was some civility in there with them. Frank...if the book is to be believed willingly killed POWs, bribed Nixon and the AG at the time, somehow helped out Oswald in taking out Kennedy, killed Hoffa and some 30 other mobsters and was never caught at all. Not to mention his claim on Gallo which seems to be total bunk.
I don't know about this one. It feels like Marty wants to tell this story about an aged man reflecting on his past, which is all good and such, but I don't think this story was the best to tell it with. Not to mention Joe need to be asked 50 times to get involved in this, and it took DeNiro claiming that this may be their last chance with Marty to even get him in the door. From what I've heard he pretty much retired from acting save for this movie and a voice over part in a movie he did a few years ago.
Again I'm sure it's a well put together film, I just think the subject matter isn't the best choice since Frank has been at least proven to be a forger of documents and I really hope at some point the Hoffa wars come out in some form to be a opposite of this movie. On the other hand it might get people looking into the Hoffa case and other cases that haven't been solved yet.
got a midterm the same day as that SF irishman screening gahhhhhhhh
I probably did lowball it compared to truly useless stuff like New York New York but idk, I don't think Scorsese does the Glass minimalist contemplative style very well
I probably did lowball it compared to truly useless stuff like New York New York but idk, I don't think Scorsese does the Glass minimalist contemplative style very well
ill say this though, darkspellmaster, at this point regardless of the historicity this movie has been getting rave reviews. People saying its Marty's best film since Goodfellas. So at this point im just hyped for the movie, but yeah its disappointing the historicity of events are ?
My friend is watching this through workt this week hopefully he loves it, he saw lighthouse too and said it was amazing. Im just sitting here like a peasant with only Malificient out here
I had my screening recently I liked it but personally I think it's gonna be divided amongst audiences
Scorcese has still got it he knows how to direct and all his ques and Easter eggs from his other movies are in here. My biggest issue is the cast in my opinion its a hit or miss Deniro Pesci and Pacino are always going to be legends but at the age there at and watching them onscreen for almost 3 and a half hours can get tedious this isn't Goodfellas type performance this is two old men who are reminicing of the good old days and as much as the focus is suppose be them younger, they are in their 50s so CGI is barely noticeable or needed maybe a shot here and there but it's very rarely used they could of just used makeup. Al Pacino's is what keeps the movie going it's probably his best work since HEAT but again all three are doing the best they can to hold a movie this long by the time it was in it's third act I was ready for it to end again it's not a bad movie but this definitely is not going to be everyone's taste
doesn't seem divided at all to be honest. Seems like it's been universally critically acclaimed. It's scorsese's best reviewed film of all time at the moment and everyone is saying its a masterpiece