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Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
It's not nonsense from TV drama. It's based on my personal experience as well as history. I'm from a black neighborhood and I've seen time and time again, people getting arrested and convicted for no reason. It's fairly common for innocent minorities to be convicted in trials with no direct evidence. I'm simply not a fan and this isn't a CSI Miami thing.


I think you're missing my point. Evidence of every kind is ignored, destroyed, warped, altered and worse. There's zero doubt that communities of color suffer this at extremely disproportionate rates at a horrifying and institutional level.

But that's not the point. The point is that circumstantial evidence is not only extremely important and legally pertinent - it's often the only evidence possible for good and bad.

Paper trails and smoking gun video evidence are not the norm.
 

Deleted member 35598

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 7, 2017
6,350
Spain
You actually are denying the copious evidence presented to you by Wade and James and the other accusers, ignoring the dozens of pornographic magazines and books found in his house, some with fingerprints from 13 year old Gavin Arvizo and his brother, some with children's faces superimposed on sexual situations, ignoring the nude photo of another of his "boys" Jonathan Spence, and the mountains of other evidence over the years.

It's actually quite disgusting how you're defending a pedophile and child abuser and his behaviour, I hope you reflect on this some day and see how blinded you were by his manipulation.

I'm not defending MJ in any way. I've already said - numerous times - that the fact he was in bed with children was unacceptable. We had 2 court cases during MJ life and another one after his death, and nothing had been proven in court so far. That doesn't mean the allegations are false, but I can ask for more evidence to be convinced if I want to.

There is no need to personally attack people having a different take that yours. This is forum. We're not meant to all have the same take. It's getting ridiculous.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I'm not defending MJ in any way. I've already said - numerous times - that the fact he was in bed with children was unacceptable. We had 2 court cases during MJ life and another one after his death, and nothing had been proven in court so far. That doesn't mean the allegations are false, but I can ask for more evidence to be convinced if I want to.
Again, what evidence of a 7yo child being raped by his famous, wealthly and powerful idol would satisfy you?
You keep saying you're just "asking for evidence" while avoiding exactly what it is you expect to see.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Reading through this, if they couldn't get him on a molestation charge it seems they could have gotten on him a child pornography charge. I wonder why they didn't go that route? Especially if he had pictures of nude children.


The majority of the art books were legal if controversial. The pornography (which Stans completely ignore unless it's to say "it was one playboy magazine!") was also standard legal off the shelf (if gross /hardcore).

What they are inarguably though is evidence of a consistent pattern of interest and Jackson himself admitted to showing them to the kids.

Again, if you found out your adult neighbor had rigged his bedroom hallway with motion detector alarms, showed your kid a stack of pornography and pictures of nude kids and then slept in the same bed in their underwear - all of which Jackson admitted to, how would you feel about it?


I want one of the folks defending Jackson here to answer the bolded.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,579
I think you're missing my point. Evidence of every kind is ignored, destroyed, warped, altered and worse. There's zero doubt that communities of color suffer this at extremely disproportionate rates at a horrifying and institutional level.

But that's not the point. The point is that circumstantial evidence is not only extremely important and legally pertinent - it's often the only evidence possible for good and bad.

Paper trails and smoking gun video evidence are not the norm.
No, I got your point. I said all kind of evidence matters, but some is more important that others. Though direct evidence isn't exactly uncommon, especially for people who are guilty. Also I wont just disregard how ineffective out legal system is because you don't think that's the point. I know how the legal system works and I think it's heavily flawed. You're entitled to think it's great, but don't tell me that TV shows are what makes me hesitant when it comes to circumstantial evidence.

You yourself just said that communities of color suffer from the system at a horrifying rate. This has far more to do with my view than TV shows that I don't watch.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Reading through this, if they couldn't get him on a molestation charge it seems they could have gotten on him a child pornography charge. I wonder why they didn't go that route? Especially if he had pictures of nude children.

'cause, from what I gathered, none of these things were actually illegal. You can still theoretically buy most of it from Amazon since they're classified "art" books and photobooks.
 

Sean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Longview
Hey look, thread has people defending a man who Fucked Little Boys using the same talking points that attack his Victims over and over. Said type of talking points are used by shitlords that we know all too well.

Don't fall for the playbook.
 

Geode

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,460
The majority of the art books were legal if controversial. The pornography (which Stans completely ignore unless it's to say "it was one playboy magazine!") was also standard legal off the shelf (if gross /hardcore).

What they are inarguably though is evidence of a consistent pattern of interest and Jackson himself admitted to showing them to the kids.

Again, if you found out your adult neighbor had rigged his bedroom hallway with motion detector alarms, showed your kid a stack of pornography and pictures of nude kids and then slept in the same bed in their underwear - all of which Jackson admitted to, how would you feel about it?


I want one of the folks defending Jackson here to answer the bolded.
'cause, from what I gathered, none of these things were actually illegal. You can still theoretically buy most of it from Amazon since they're classified "art" books and photobooks.

Thanks for the explanation guys! I guess I didn't read it too closely. For reason I interpreted the books as photo albums instead of art books for some reason.

EDIT: Wait, looking at the list again. There's a photo of a young boy believe to be Jonathan Spence fully nude. If Spence was underaged in 1993, then wouldn't that picture be possession of child pornography? Unless it wasn't a young boy nor Spence?
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
I already said he did wrong by sleeping with them alone, even without sex. That's unacceptable for a grown man. But maybe - just maybe - it did not go further than that.

But if we have some evidences like in R.Kelly case where we have videos of him having sex and documents proving he married Aliyah when she was a teenager. That's what I call evidences and I would accept it.
So Harvey Weinstein is innocent in your eyes? And Bill Cosby? And OJ?
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil
EDIT: Just to clarify: A friend, who is a big fan of MJ, sent this to me saying that not everything about this pdf is true. I have not checked it yet, but here it is. : https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...nd-thenor-now-the_us_577fdfbce4b0f06648f4a3f8

This was all the proof I needed to end any lingering doubt (not that there was any mind you)

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/011805pltreqaseemd.pdf
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stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
It's not nonsense from TV drama. It's based on my personal experience as well as history. I'm from a black neighborhood and I've seen time and time again, people getting arrested and convicted for no reason. It's fairly common for innocent minorities to be convicted in trials with no direct evidence. I'm simply not a fan and this isn't a CSI Miami thing.

But as someone just explained, circumstantial evidence is also how innocent people get found innocent time and time again, because they have an alibi. That's circumstantial evidence. What you're describing is not a problem with the type of evidence but a problem with the racism inherent in much of society that would, for example, result in jurors more heavily weighting circumstantial evidence coming from a white witness over circumstantial evidence coming from a person of color. So they might believe the white store owner and not the black friend who was with them all night and knows it was someone else who went into the store.

But keep in mind that the exact same issues could arise from what you are calling more solid evidence. If there is DNA evidence and the testimony comes from a white expert and the refutation comes from an expert who is also person of color, do you think perhaps a biased jury might subconsciously respond differently to the two testimonies? What if one of the experts is male and one is female?

The idea that the science is clear, irrefutable, and simply presented as is without a context or inherent bias is in fact a CSI Miami thing. One kind of evidence is not cleaner than another, because the bias is present in all aspects of the judicial system.
 

Deleted member 35598

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 7, 2017
6,350
Spain
So Harvey Weinstein is innocent in your eyes? And Bill Cosby? And OJ?

Why you're talking about innocent ? Jesus-Christ I already said hundred times he did wrong.I never said he was innocent.

We're talking about MJ here. Bills Cosby is is prison, so of course he is guilty. Weinstein, it's still ongoing in court. I think he will finish behind bars ( rightly so ).

OJ ? This had nothing to do with this.we're talking sexual offenders. Anyway, OJ was convicted in the civil case. So guilty in my eyes. But OJ case is a different animal ( because of the race implications ).
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,579
But as someone just explained, circumstantial evidence is also how innocent people get found innocent time and time again, because they have an alibi. That's circumstantial evidence. What you're describing is not a problem with the type of evidence but a problem with the racism inherent in much of society that would, for example, result in jurors more heavily weighting circumstantial evidence coming from a white witness over circumstantial evidence coming from a person of color. So they might believe the white store owner and not the black friend who was with them all night and knows it was someone else who went into the store.

But keep in mind that the exact same issues could arise from what you are calling more solid evidence. If there is DNA evidence and the testimony comes from a white expert and the refutation comes from an expert who is also person of color, do you think perhaps a biased jury might subconsciously respond differently to the two testimonies? What if one of the experts is male and one is female?

The idea that the science is clear, irrefutable, and simply presented as is without a context or inherent bias is in fact a CSI Miami thing. One kind of evidence is not cleaner than another, because the bias is present in all aspects of the judicial system.
To me, one type of evidence is cleaner than another. I also believe there should be more evidence to prove one guilty than there should be to prove someone is innocent. I believe people are innocent until proven guilty (by my own metric of proof). So yeah, I strongly prefer direct evidence. If you look at the amount of cases overturned it's a case of direct or scientific evidence disproving circumstantial evidence. To me, one is far more important that the other because it's much harder to disprove or cast doubt on direct evidence. Not saying it's impossible, but certainly much more difficult in my mind.

And yes this goes both ways and not just towards proving one is innocent. R. Kelly as a lot of circumstantial evidence in his favor but the direct evidence against him easily supersedes that. I'd consider him guilty.
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
"I just want evidence"

Well he admitted to sleeping with random kids alone and his bedroom had alarms if anyone came close.

"I think I would change my mind if there was evidence"

Here are quotes from others who say he behaved inappropriately with them when they were kids.

"Is evidence too much to ask?"

Graphic testimony from two survivors with very similar patterns of abuse?

"If this happened, I am sure there would have been evidence."

A ton of pictures of nude kids found in his house.

"I am not defending him but we should at least wait for evidence"

Tape of him buying jewelry with a kid EXACTLY as described by the person in the tape.

"Can you show me any evidence that he did this?"

O.o
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
"The Golden Age of Neglect" is a fucking hell of a title for a book that includes nude teenagers in it. Similar feelings about "Room To Play". Like, what the fuck
 

TheFuzz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
If you don't think he did it, you need a mental and psychological evaluation at this point.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
"I just want evidence"

Well he admitted to sleeping with random kids alone and his bedroom had alarms if anyone came close.

"I think I would change my mind if there was evidence"

Here are quotes from others who say he behaved inappropriately with them when they were kids.

"Is evidence too much to ask?"

Graphic testimony from two survivors with very similar patterns of abuse?

"If this happened, I am sure there would have been evidence."

A ton of pictures of nude kids found in his house.

"I am not defending him but we should at least wait for evidence"

Tape of him buying jewelry with a kid EXACTLY as described by the person in the tape.

"Can you show me any evidence that he did this?"

O.o
You're missing:

What are you expecting to see as evidence of a 7yo being raped by his idol?

"......"
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
"The Golden Age of Neglect" is a fucking hell of a title for a book that includes nude teenagers in it. Similar feelings about "Room To Play". Like, what the fuck
No, you see, they're art books and were solely used for that intent and purpose by the man well known for his proclivity for fondling, kissing and cuddling young boys in bed, in private.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
No, you see, they're art books and were solely used for that intent and purpose by the man well known for his proclivity for fondling, kissing and cuddling young boys in bed, in private.

Out of curiosity, have you googled "The Golden Age of Neglect"? The title coupled with the description got me curious and I actually did... It's really not at all what the description makes it sound like. It's very 90's grungy, mostly about youth culture and the like.

Those other books do raise more than one eyebrow, especially with where and how they were found.
 

pixelation

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,548
It's disgusting seeing all of the people defending MJ, YouTube is full of people chastising the victims when it's clear to see from all of the mounting evidence that MJ is guilty.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
I've actually reflected on that more than anyone else in here.

Which is why this documentary pisses me off so much.

Because, let's assume for a moment that he's guilty. That means we let a predator walk free to prey on more kids. And the best excuse we can come up with for this is that "he was groomed/fucked up in the head"? Fuck that shit. There's a cycle of abuse & violence that gets perpetrated when we don't report this shit when it happens and stand up for the victims the first fucking time someone asks you about it.

I'll never see my justice served because what happened to me is known only to me and one other person: the person who did it. I told my mom, but that's it. I'll never be able to go to court and bring him to justice because it's my word against his. In this case, you mean to tell me that, with multiple accounts of fuckery going on, Wade just decided to validate MJ's position and that's okay?

Garbage.
So you blame the abused kids instead of Jackson? That's pretty shitty.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Out of curiosity, have you googled "The Golden Age of Neglect"? The title coupled with the description got me curious and I actually did... It's really not at all what the description makes it sound like. It's very 90's grungy, mostly about youth culture and the like.
Honestly not a fan of going through the books to find the pictures of nude child boys to see just how morally offensive I find them.

They're there, and he was known to have a penchant for young boys. Constantly having them in his company, both in and outside of the bedroom. The grooming and wider abuse he inflicted upon young boys is without question.

To act as though there's no connection, and it was with entirely innocent interest he browsed them, is so laughable I really can't entertain it, and I say that as someone that owns various art and photography books, a number on the human form.

It's also entirely meaningless as something to argue over. The books could never have existed and it wouldn't change anything about how he manipulated, groomed and abused children.
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,615
This isn't semantics. Without circumstantial evidence almost no criminals would ever be convicted and the justice system itself would fail. And it's not just one direction - an alibi is circumstantial evidence. Defenses rely tremendously on circumstantial evidence. And circumstantial evidence can be profoundly compelling - sometimes vastly more so than a receipt or even video.

The idea that circumstantial evidence is by rule flimsy is nonsense from TV drama. Circumstantial evidence can literally be the context for reality.
I think you're missing my point. Evidence of every kind is ignored, destroyed, warped, altered and worse. There's zero doubt that communities of color suffer this at extremely disproportionate rates at a horrifying and institutional level.

But that's not the point. The point is that circumstantial evidence is not only extremely important and legally pertinent - it's often the only evidence possible for good and bad.

Paper trails and smoking gun video evidence are not the norm.

Great points in circumstantial evidence. The best illustration of this effect is that, when people say they prefer something stronger than circumstantial evidence, the number one phrase they use for this thing they want is "a smoking gun." Which is, by definition, circumstantial evidence.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Honestly not a fan of going through the books to find the pictures of nude child boys to see just how morally offensive I find them.

They're there, and he was known to have a penchant for young boys. Constantly having them in his company, both in and outside of the bedroom. The grooming and wider abuse he inflicted upon young boys is without question.

To act as though there's no connection, and it was with entirely innocent interest he browsed them, is so laughable I really can't entertain it, and I say that as someone that owns various art and photography books, a number on the human form.

It's also entirely meaningless as something to argue over. The books could never have existed and it wouldn't change anything about how he manipulated, groomed and abused children.

Yeah, I agree. The number of evidence just adds up, even if one or two of the books are not as bad as the context makes them look.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
Why you're talking about innocent ? Jesus-Christ I already said hundred times he did wrong.I never said he was innocent.

We're talking about MJ here. Bills Cosby is is prison, so of course he is guilty. Weinstein, it's still ongoing in court. I think he will finish behind bars ( rightly so ).

OJ ? This had nothing to do with this.we're talking sexual offenders. Anyway, OJ was convicted in the civil case. So guilty in my eyes. But OJ case is a different animal ( because of the race implications ).
You're the one that established "I need proof to believe anything". There was no direct proof in those other cases.
 

Pelican

Member
Oct 26, 2017
424
I love the term "resurfaces". Way more exciting than "Person discovers video with tons of views that's been sitting on the internet for years".

Fitting for MJ, since people seem to forget about what happened for years at a time until the latest "Hey did you all know..." comes out and SHOCKS the world.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
but they like his music

this is more important than paedophilia. who cares about these kids that were groomed and abused? the legacy of my favourite musician shall not be tarnished on my watch
You can like his music and still consider him a monster. It doesn't have to be one or the other. That's a personal problem if you don't like that people can seperate the two.

I'll always listen to smooth criminal, thriller and somebody's watching me (no matter how fucking ironic that song is now)
 

Advc

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,632
Just right freaking now, a MJ song is playing on the radio at work, no kidding. I think it's called You're not Alone. Screw this guy tbh. This shit is totally unacceptable and creepy as hell.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,659
It seems that some people will be convinced until there's video footage of MJ raping his victims, which is extremely disgusting.

I remember in the documentary thread the defenders were calling Jimmy's ring story a "hoax" that had been "repeated multiple times before."

Now we have video proof of MJ buying a ring with him.

And they still don't stop.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
If you defend MJ for the abuse he committed out in the open (admitting to sleeping in the same bed with many children, grooming them, paying his way into children's lives, faxes he sent, etc), you don't care about victims of abuse, period. That's before even getting to the accusations.
Do I wanna know how many people defend him?
Look through this thread and the previous locked ones. The defense force is strong
 

chandler55

Banned
Mar 6, 2019
4
If you defend MJ for the abuse he committed out in the open (admitting to sleeping in the same bed with many children, grooming them, paying his way into children's lives, faxes he sent, etc), you don't care about victims of abuse, period. That's before even getting to the accusations.

Look through this thread and the previous locked ones. The defense force is strong
think they meant rkelly and I dont think anyone denied rkelly is a pedo