(Forbes) Why You Saw 'Captain Marvel' And 'Wonder Woman' But Not 'Alita' And 'Tomb Raider'.

oracledragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
536
I didnt see alita because, good or bad, I know it will be a guilty pleasure movie for me and I'll watch it a dozen times... I'd rather buy it vs theatre as I'm not a believer in the "experience". I saw Captain Marvel in theatres and it was perfectly serviceable. I'll probably see it once more on some streaming service, and then likely not again, so I dont intend to buy it.
 

Kasai

Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,283
I make it a point to see basically every Marvel movie I can in theaters with my brother, because I figured it would be a super easy thing to make into a tradition.

Plus I really like superheros, especially Spider-Man and Ironman
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,892
Tomb Raider looked middling from the beginning and I had zero affinity for the source material in regards to Battle Angel.

That said, I saw Captain Marvel opening night and thought it pretty much sucked.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,189
Arizona
I didn't see Tomb Raider because it looked like a genuinely bad movie, and by all accounts I care about, I was absolutely right. But I was interested in it initially, due to the casting news coming shortly after seeing Ex Machina. I didn't see Alita because nothing about it seemed interesting to me. I saw Wonder Woman in spite of it being tied to major franchise. I have no interest in the DCEU and never have, but Wonder Woman looked genuinely good. And it was. I saw Captain Marvel in part because it was part of a franchise I'm invested in, but also in part because it looked good. But then there's other woman-led films, such as Annihilation and Arrival, that rank among my absolute favorite films in years. Neither are exactly mainstream IPs.

In other words, there's not any trend here that can be determined based off of my own personal choices to see these movies, beyond "it looks good/bad". But to go beyond simply myself, as overall my film viewing habits aren't significant, the entire argument is a poor one, because of course in general woman-led franchise films are going to be more successful than woman-led non-franchise films. As a general rule franchise films do better than other films. That in itself is worth talking about, the continuous shift towards franchise films as studios ever-increasingly center their output around expensive, brand-centric films with smaller overall outputs, but the article seems to imply that this is something unique to films with more diverse leads when I don't really see a case for that.

As a side note, it's also weird to name-drop Tomb Raider, when it was an IP that was able to find significant success in film in the past (and continued success in videogames), and continues to be a known entity. It's problem quite obviously wasn't "people don't know it/it's not a franchise film, so they didn't see it".
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,655
They made the eyes more like an anime puppy dog compared to the first trailer. Its a fix to make it less off putting but I wouldn't call what they did "toned down". Cameron wanted his aesthetic critics be damned.
The secret sauce was making the irises proportionate to the size of the enlarged eyeball. And by "secret sauce" I mean "obvious thing that should have been done in the first place"
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,749
Greater Vancouver
Alita was actually better than Captain Marvel.
What? No. The movie is still about her naively fawning over some total doofus when she's not striking "badass anime poses." Like the action and aesthetic are great, and the main actress does well with what she's got, but it's real fucking messily put together.

It's like baby's first puberty/classism metaphor.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,455
Captain Marvel is even messier. It also looks like shit, unlike Alita. Been a while since I’ve seen such a disgusting combo of shaky cam and quick cuts.
I don't agree. Captain Marvel doesn't have multiple false endings and despite starting in media res, its characterization and plot are shown rather than told, as film is a visual medium.

I'm not talking about the action scenes here. As far as movies are constructed Captain Marvel is fairly lean, while Alita is too overstuffed for its own good.
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,329
Just gonna post this here because it’s disgraceful how quickly this superheroine’s amazing feats of badass have been forgotten in the wake of these other milquetoast entries.

 

Bobo Dakes

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
Alita was interesting for the first half and had good world building for a while, but officially became a bad movie once she stepped into that bar and gave that speech. Specifically the war paint moment. Then it was just bad decisions that lead to cool action scenes over and over.

Never saw TR, didn't look very good.

Saw WW because of the reviews. I liked it.

Will catch CM this weekend because it mostly feels like I have to because of Endgame, but it does not actually look interesting to me.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,932
Monster, I'll give it a shot if some solid critics say it's good
It's one of the most highly praised manga/anime of all time. The anime is even a panel by panel adaptation. Incredibly faithful. Very much a slow burn though. Mystery/thriller.

HBO wanted to make a live action series a while back and Guillermo Del Toro has been wanting to make an adaption for years too.
 

Ehoavash

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,465
Growing up I was always a huge comic book movie dork ( I'd dream about going to the movies to see Spiderman, the dark Knight etc but never could ) so yeah I'm hooked on the MCU/DC stuff

I'm not a fan of going to the movies these days though, requires too much prep time holding in bladder etc x.x but ...again I need my MCU fill to keep up with the next film so I don't get spoiled cause it's always a hot conversation among people I know too

Other movies I just usually rent on Google play ie star wars, Pixar stuff, Disney films, and other blockbusters.
 

bixio

Banned
Mar 10, 2019
192
I, like most people, saw all 4 in theaters. Not sure what this article is on about
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,111
Alita is going to be a cult classic 20 years down the road. Don't expect movies like that to be huge successes right away. Alita is on the same path as Blade Runner.
I'd agree with you except I'd say Alita is going to be a cult classic like Speed Racer more than Blade Runner. A well made live action adaptation of a Japanese anime that didn't connect with general audiences. It'll be celebrated in niche critical circles but unlike Blade Runner Alita's story is too earnest and schlocky to get the same type of re-evaluation that film got.
 

Violence Jack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,361
They could've left TR out of the discussion. That movie never looked good, and ended up being a boring slog.

Put me in the camp that enjoyed Alita a tad more than Captain Marvel, and way more than Wonder Woman. It's destined to be a cult classic.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,331
The film has its flaws and so can be disappointing when acting as a follow up to the flawless first entry, but the blocking and creativity on display in those action scenes are leagues ahead of where any Marvel or DC joint have even begun to approach.
I respectfully disagree, not that Marvel/DC is much better. But first, we have to accept that a completely CG movie has less restrictions in filming a set piece. Even so, I found I2 just lacking any sort of brilliant creativity even in its action scenes. It just all felt average.

I can't think of a single stand out scene except for maybe the helicopter rescue.
 

Metallix87

Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,207
Never saw Tomb Raider. Wonder Woman was fantastic, Captain Marvel was really damn good, Alita was straight trash.
 

Brazil

The Dude of Prophecy
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
8,298
São Paulo, Brazil
Just gonna post this here because it’s disgraceful how quickly this superheroine’s amazing feats of badass have been forgotten in the wake of these other milquetoast entries.

It’s probably because one wants to remember that film.

Her scenes were definitely the best part of it, but the film in its entirety has already been forgotten from the conversation because it has no hook.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,111
The film has its flaws and so can be disappointing when acting as a follow up to the flawless first entry, but the blocking and creativity on display in those action scenes are leagues ahead of where any Marvel or DC joint have even begun to approach.
But at the end of the day its the same result. We all know that Brad Bird and his team can direct the shit out of an action set piece but if its not in service to a compelling story they're just as forgettable as any MCU/DC scene. You could tell me that Tomorrow Land had great action and I'd believe you but hell if I can remember any of it. Same For I2. I remember the bike scene being good but the story anchoring it was so weak its all fuzzy in my mind.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
1,294
Alita has some silly elements to it, but I found Rosa Salazar's performance far more interesting and endearing than Brie Larson's despite generally considering Larson the better actor. While I appreciate the allegorical references CM makes in its story, I didn't leave that film really feeling like I knew the lead character any better than when I started. It felt like the film was more focused in characterizing her in terms of noble values and not her actual personality. It's not great when Ben Mendehlson outshines the protagonist in her own film.

Alita is delightfully cornball in moments, but has far more likable characters, a more visually interesting world, and much better action.
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,674
There hasn’t been a single good video game movie ever (despite my soft spot for Resident Evil). People are preconditioned to be wary of them, and the reviews for Tomb Raider didn’t help. I caught it on cable - as a huge Tomb Raider fan I thought it was pretty average and deserved its fate.

I saw Alita in the theater. I didn’t know the source material (I read it afterward) and really wanted to like it, but while the action was great, there was a heavy layer of cringe throughout. If asked to recommend it to someone who wasn’t in it for the anime ties, I would have a hard time.

The funny thing about the eyes is that they’re not really larger than the other characters’ eyes in the manga, and sometimes smaller. So giving her alone “anime eyes” didn’t really make sense.

DC and Marvel films are going to have a built in draw, the premise of the question is a little silly anyway.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
123
I saw WW, CM AND Alita ( I forgot TR was even a movie tbh).

Loved all 3 to different levels. Would say that the most impressive of the 3 is Alita.
But Battle Angel is my favorite Manga story so ...
 

CosmicGP

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,245
I saw all except Alita. Hearing a lot of people say it's better than Captain Marvel so maybe I'll go see it now.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
1,294
There hasn’t been a single good video game movie ever (despite my soft spot for Resident Evil). People are preconditioned to be wary of them, and the reviews for Tomb Raider didn’t help. I caught it on cable - as a huge Tomb Raider fan I thought it was pretty average and deserved its fate.

I saw Alita in the theater. I didn’t know the source material (I read it afterward) and really wanted to like it, but while the action was great, there was a heavy layer of cringe throughout. If asked to recommend it to someone who wasn’t in it for the anime ties, I would have a hard time.

The funny thing about the eyes is that they’re not really larger than the other characters’ eyes in the manga, and sometimes smaller. So giving her alone “anime eyes” didn’t really make sense.

DC and Marvel films are going to have a built in draw, the premise of the question is a little silly anyway.
I'm not really understanding "cringe" in this context. I know it's a word that gets used, but I always associated it more with empathizing with someone unaware of how poorly they were coming off in a certain scenario. The world of Alita, being based off a manga after all, is batshit, but is consistently so. It's no more cringe than Speed Racer - a film that, despite disliking, is proudly what it is and not something I'd consider cringe-y at all, personally.

The eyes don't make sense in the context of the film, I agree, but I'm being honest when I say I found them less distracting than Rami Malek's fake teeth in Bohemian. While the eyes are arguably unnecessary, I did feel that they added another visual element that made her character unique and indelible. In a world where every other person has cybernetic bodies, Alita is (basically) the only one with big eyes. And the eyes are very emotive and work very well with her personality. The moments when she bites into an orange for the first time or looks with amazement at rollerball are truly impressive and help make her this larger than life character that you root for.
 

gigantor21

Member
Oct 29, 2017
970
Ah, so we're playing the whole "willfully obtuse to look woke without really trying" game tonight, eh?

The forces at work here aren't some big secret. That the author can't believe people won't watch Alita or Tomb Raider but go out to see an MCU film, or a comic book adaptation many have been waiting for forever, is laughable. I would prefer that the author put their energy into something more productive.
 

Teggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,674
I'm not really understanding "cringe" in this context. I know it's a word that gets used, but I always associated it more with empathizing with someone unaware of how poorly they were coming off in a certain scenario. The world of Alita, being based off a manga after all, is batshit, but is consistently so. It's no more cringe than Speed Racer - a film that, despite disliking, is proudly what it is and not something I'd consider cringe-y at all, personally.

The eyes don't make sense in the context of the film, I agree, but I'm being honest when I say I found them less distracting than Rami Malek's fake teeth in Bohemian. While the eyes are arguably unnecessary, I did feel that they added another visual element that made her character unique and indelible. In a world where every other person has cybernetic bodies, Alita is (basically) the only one with big eyes. And the eyes are very emotive and work very well with her personality. The moments when she bites into an orange for the first time or looks with amazement at rollerball are truly impressive and help make her this larger than life character that you root for.
Cringe as in very corny lines delivered in a way that make you feel uncomfortable. In particular they distract from the film and make you suddenly aware you are watching a movie.

And to expand on that a little, movies are capable of being campy and working. But Alita is not really a campy movie. It is played primarily as a straight fantasy sci-fi film, so when these bits that fit in better in manga get dropped in here and there, it doesn’t work out great. TBH, after reading a lot of the manga, even the manga takes it too far at times.
 
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motherless

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,813
The trailers for Alita make it look awful, same with Tomb Raider which I did see as a rental and was indeed awful.
 
Oct 27, 2017
795
I think the premise of the article is kind of dumb. It's saying that we will only see diversity-filled movies if they are already something we want to see. Well...yeah, and that's a good thing. If I want to see a Western and it has a gay lead, then that's cool with me. But I don't enjoy musicals, so if I don't see one that has a black lead, that doesn't mean I'm racist, it means I don't like musicals.

Hollywood making popular genres more diverse is a good thing. Less-popular films are less popular because they appeal to less people, not because they are diverse (generally).
 

Funyarinpa

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
6,797
I don't see movies much, Alita seemed OK but I just don't like live action adaptations that much (and I've not read Alita), and there are many reasons I didn't even consider to think of watching TR before the gender of the protagonist.
 

zswordsman

Member
Nov 5, 2017
199
The trailer to Alita was just bad and the big eyes really turn people off. I saw it on a whim because a friend wanted to and I'm glad I did. I really enjoyed it! Probably liked it a bit more than Captain Marvel, CM had a slow beginning until Jackson came on.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
5,547
There hasn’t been a single good video game movie ever (despite my soft spot for Resident Evil). People are preconditioned to be wary of them, and the reviews for Tomb Raider didn’t help. I caught it on cable - as a huge Tomb Raider fan I thought it was pretty average and deserved its fate.
What? Have you forgotten


 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
2,091
This comparison is awful. Mortal engines, Alita and TR all suffered from mixed to horrendous reviews. The advertising campaigns were terrible and the properties generally aren’t that popular. Why would anyone expect them to bring in as much money as huge tent pole movies from DC and marvel?

I just don’t agree with the premise. The important thing is that we’re seeing more representation and the films that have more representation are performing really well.

Also I saw all the movies mentioned in this article.
 

TheBeardedOne

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,189
Derry
I don't spend money on movies that don't look good, or only look middling, unless I'm really bored. Most action movies also aren't that good, and Marvel is milking the shit out of these properties to varying degrees of quality.

I'll watch Captain Marvel one day, but I doubt I'll go see it in theatres. I don't feel like paying for or using one of my free passes on it. Alita looked dumb, so I didn't go see it, and wouldn't anyways. It looked like a big, action packed, dumb CGI fest.

Tomb Raider was obviously going to be bad. The trailers were atrocious. So I skipped it. I did watch it on Crave, and holy shit was it bad. So mindnumbingly boring. I had been looking forward to it, but wasn't holding my breath. Then I saw the trailers.

I did go see Wonder Woman for a birthday party, and it was good.

I don't care who stars in the movie, or if it's a woman or a man, nearly as much as I care if the movie is good. I'm not going to spend money to see movies just to support female leads. I've watched tons of movies with female leads, but a movie has to stand out for me to pay to see it.

I'll be going to see Us next
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,693
These four movies don't have that much in common. Yes they have a female protagonist but so? They're four different genres for one, yes even Wonder Woman (WW2-era comic adaptation) and Captain Marvel (space/cosmic comic adaptation) .