Foreign* officials Pushed for Trump to Strike a “Grand Bargain” with Putin [New Yorker]

7aged

Member
Oct 28, 2017
717
*Israeli, Saudi, and Emirati

In this craziest timeline, 3 unlikely allies teamed up to push an unlikely agenda!

Article from the New Yorker:

New Yorker said:
Israeli, Saudi, and Emirati Officials Privately Pushed for Trump to Strike a “Grand Bargain” with Putin
During a private meeting shortly before the November, 2016, election, Mohammed bin Zayed, the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, floated to a longtime American interlocutor what sounded, at the time, like an unlikely grand bargain. The Emirati leader told the American that Vladimir Putin, the Russian President, might be interested in resolving the conflict in Syria in exchange for the lifting of sanctions imposed in response to Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

Current and former U.S. officials said that bin Zayed, known as M.B.Z., was not the only leader in the region who favored rapprochement between the former Cold War adversaries. While America’s closest allies in Europe viewed with a sense of dread Trump’s interest in partnering with Putin, three countries that enjoy unparallelled influence with the incoming Administration—Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the U.A.E.—privately embraced the goal. Officials from the three countries have repeatedly encouraged their American counterparts to consider ending the Ukraine-related sanctions in return for Putin’s help in removing Iranian forces from Syria.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...or-trump-to-strike-a-grand-bargain-with-putin

 
Oct 27, 2017
2,371
So their goal is to gain Putin's favor by getting the US to drop sanctions and in return Russia changes its relationship with Iran.

It'll be a disaster for the region but those individuals come out as winners. The best case scenario is a bunch proxy groups fighting each other and the worst case scenario is an invasion of a country you can't fracture along any clear ethnic or religious lines.
 

Chie Satonaka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,665
It's not even worth being angry about anymore.

I'm just amused at this point. It's like watching a car crash.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,719
Checks out with who the current US administration views as an ally. On the surface, the obvious link is that these guys hate Iran, but beyond that, they do share a distaste for multilateralism and all these international organizations that condemn them every now and then.
 

Keasar

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Oct 25, 2017
5,220
Umeå, Sweden


The Saudi dude always looks for some reason really surprised in these pictures.
"Holy shit, can't believe this orange motherfucker actually fell for it. Also, is his harpy wife still behind me looking like she's about to pounce and suck my blood? Someone please tell me if she is."
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,204
Boston
Wonder how the white nationalists / European identitarians feel about Trump teaming up with the Jews, the Arabs, and the Golden Horde
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,093
So their goal is to gain Putin's favor by getting the US to drop sanctions and in return Russia changes its relationship with Iran.

It'll be a disaster for the region but those individuals come out as winners. The best case scenario is a bunch proxy groups fighting each other and the worst case scenario is an invasion of a country you can't fracture along any clear ethnic or religious lines.
No, their goal is to use Trump's hard on for Putin and his disdain for Obama to advance their regional interests against Iran.

Both Russia and the US are just means to get to Iran.
 

BowieZ

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Nov 7, 2017
3,425
Mohammed al-Zayed was one of the benefactors of that major 2016 Rosneft sale in the Dossier, right?
 

Deleted member 8860

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Oct 26, 2017
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3 unlikely allies teamed up to push an unlikely agenda!
Unlikely allies? Not at all. That's long been the US-allied anti-Iran, anti-human rights team.

Unlikely agenda? Flipping Russia from team Assad/Iran is indeed unlikely. It's going to take more than Ukraine/Crimea.
 
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DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,728
Had some debates with relatives and a handful of them are oblivious to most of the big picture stuff

Its going to be an uphill battle against these powerful entities. The information war is still very much to their advantage and it sucks
 

Aaron Stack

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Nov 13, 2017
1,557
It's always been known that the Israeli government isn't truly enemies with Saudi and emeriti governments. It's just a populist position to get the old guard arab conservatives on their side
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,615
A two tiered world where a relative few still live comfortably and billions slave and suffer for crumbs. Climate change is going to dwindle habitable land and drinkable water. The ultra wealthy seem to be fortifying for that reality where states and governments no longer exist, only fiefdoms where their stockpiles of resources give them more power and authority than any democratically elected leader could ever dream of.
 

Taki

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,308
Had some debates with relatives and a handful of them are oblivious to most of the big picture stuff

Its going to be an uphill battle against these powerful entities. The information war is still very much to their advantage and it sucks
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
So this is some of Israel's and the Saudi's designs in this grand plan various nations and oligarchs are involved in.
The Saudi Prince's secret meetings with Israel immediately after leaving the world cup was a curious thing.
More pieces and their movements on the board revealed.
Await finding out what India's and Pakistan's notions are in all this.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
What's so important about getting Iran out of Syria? The Syrian government and Hezbollah are their agents so what difference would that even make in the big picture?
 

Sho_Nuff82

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Nov 14, 2017
11,758
Since I didn't see this one I posted my notes from my thread:

During a private meeting shortly before the November, 2016, election, Mohammed bin Zayed, the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, floated to a longtime American interlocutor what sounded, at the time, like an unlikely grand bargain. The Emirati leader told the American that Vladimir Putin, the Russian President, might be interested in resolving the conflict in Syria in exchange for the lifting of sanctions imposed in response to Russia’s actions in Ukraine.
The special counsel, Robert Mueller, and his F.B.I. team, tasked with probing Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, have been investigating whether the U.A.E. facilitated contacts between Trump’s team and Russian officials and sought to influence U.S. politics. Nine days before Trump’s Inauguration, Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater and a confidant of Steve Bannon, met at M.B.Z.’s resort in the Seychelles with Kirill Dmitriev, the head of Russia’s sovereign wealth fund, whom the Emiratis used as a go-between with Putin. (An April, 2017, Washington Post story that I co-wrote revealed the Indian Ocean encounter and stated that “the UAE agreed to broker the meeting in part to explore whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, a Trump administration objective that would be likely to require major concessions to Moscow on U.S. sanctions.”)
As an inducement for Putin to partner with Gulf states rather than Iran, the U.A.E. and Saudi Arabia started making billions of dollars in investments in Russia and convening high-level meetings in Moscow, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, and the Seychelles.

It is unclear whether M.B.Z.’s preëlection proposal came from Putin himself or one of his confidants, or whether the Emirati leader came up with the idea. But the comment suggested that M.B.Z. believed that turning Putin against Iran would require sanctions relief for Moscow, a concession that required the support of the American President.
Israeli officials lobbied for rapprochement between Washington and Moscow soon after Trump’s election victory. In a private meeting during the transition, an attendee told me, Ron Dermer, the Israeli Ambassador to the United States and one of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s closest confidants, said that the Israeli government was encouraging the incoming Trump Administration to coöperate more closely with Putin, starting in Syria, with the hope of convincing Moscow to push the Iranians to leave the country, the attendee said.
A senior Israeli official declined to comment on Dermer’s message but said that “Israel does believe it is possible to get a U.S.-Russian agreement in Syria that would push the Iranians out,” and that doing so “could be the beginning of an improvement in U.S.-Russian relations over all.”
Separately, a former U.S. official recalled having a conversation after Trump’s Inauguration with an Israeli Cabinet minister with close ties to Netanyahu in which the minister pitched the American on the idea of “trading Ukraine for Syria.” The former official told me, “You can understand why Russia’s help with Syria is a far higher priority for Israel than pushing back on Russian aggression in Ukraine. But I considered it a major stretch for Israel to try to convince the United States that U.S. interests are well served by looking the other way at Russian aggression in Ukraine. Of course, Trump may disagree for his own reasons.”
TL:DR, for their own reasons (Israel hoping to protect their country against Iranian weaponry being deployed in the region, UAE and Saudia Arabia wanting closer ties with Putin and a weakening of Iran, none of the three countries trusting Obama or Clinton to go along with the deal), these three countries pushed for a deal in late 2016 that would push Russia to handle the situation in Syria. Given their influence over Iran, the hope was that they could push Iranian forces and weapons out. In exchange, the US would ease/remove sanctions for the annexation of Crimea, or straight up recognize Crimea as Russian territory. The plan is the link between the UAE/Russia meetings in New York/Trump Tower, the Prince meeting in the Seychelles, the meeting of Kislyak and Flynn (discussing sanctions) in December, and Kushner trying to establish a backchannel of communications with Kislyak around the same time.

The deal blew up because Congress was pushing for even harsher sanctions against Russia during the transition, and ended up getting them during the big spending bill. But now with Trump's meeting with Putin next week, all signs point to him trying to revive the conversation. Keep watch on how the RNC reacts to Trump's gushing review of Putin's job in Syria in the coming weeks.
 
I posted a response in Sho_Nuff82's thread. Dodnt know one was already made
So their goal is to gain Putin's favor by getting the US to drop sanctions and in return Russia changes its relationship with Iran.

It'll be a disaster for the region but those individuals come out as winners. The best case scenario is a bunch proxy groups fighting each other and the worst case scenario is an invasion of a country you can't fracture along any clear ethnic or religious lines.
It won't happen. They are selling this as a means to get Russia away from Iran but it's really an attempt to split Russia from China.


Besides, US, Israel, KSA are their own little Axis of Evil - don't think there will be too much interest in joining up for anyone. Everyone is looking East now. So no idea why they even tried to pull that.
 

Aaron Stack

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
1,557
What's so important about getting Iran out of Syria? The Syrian government and Hezbollah are their agents so what difference would that even make in the big picture?
Because there's a massive difference between an agent of another country being on your borders and the country plus the agents being on your border.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
11,758
I think if they didn't approve, Congress wouldn't have spent the most patriotic of American holidays knocking back vodka in Moscow, Russia with no Democratic Senators in sight.
The meeting with RNC senators and Trump is an obvious attempt to get this conversation started again.

This is pretty much 50% of the reason they wanted Trump in office in the first place (the other 50% I imagine being his attacking the EU and NATO).
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
11,758
Hezbollah is a branch of the Iranian military basically. They have been on Israel's border for decades and in Syria for the last 6 or 7 years.
From the article:

The Israeli leader wanted to insure that Israeli forces could continue to access Syrian airspace, which the Russians partially controlled, to prevent the deployment of advanced weapons systems by Iran and its proxies that could threaten the Jewish state.
Israel can (and has previously) carpet bomb(ed) Lebanon and Hezbollah whenever they want. Not so easy to do in Syria if Russian fighter jets are telling you Area X is a no-fly zone.
 

RedValkyrie

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,327
Since I didn't see this one I posted my notes from my thread:













TL:DR, for their own reasons (Israel hoping to protect their country against Iranian weaponry being deployed in the region, UAE and Saudia Arabia wanting closer ties with Putin and a weakening of Iran, none of the three countries trusting Obama or Clinton to go along with the deal), these three countries pushed for a deal in late 2016 that would push Russia to handle the situation in Syria. Given their influence over Iran, the hope was that they could push Iranian forces and weapons out. In exchange, the US would ease/remove sanctions for the annexation of Crimea, or straight up recognize Crimea as Russian territory. The plan is the link between the UAE/Russia meetings in New York/Trump Tower, the Prince meeting in the Seychelles, the meeting of Kislyak and Flynn (discussing sanctions) in December, and Kushner trying to establish a backchannel of communications with Kislyak around the same time.

The deal blew up because Congress was pushing for even harsher sanctions against Russia during the transition, and ended up getting them during the big spending bill. But now with Trump's meeting with Putin next week, all signs point to him trying to revive the conversation. Keep watch on how the RNC reacts to Trump's gushing review of Putin's job in Syria in the coming weeks.
Wow, You’re right!

You mentioned “Your notes”? What was your thread?
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
This deal is supremely dumb because once sanctions are dropped, they don't return easily but the Iranians can return to Syria any time. Unless the leaders of Israel, UAE and KSA are dumb enough to take Putin's word. They might be though.
 

ishan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,192
So this is some of Israel's and the Saudi's designs in this grand plan various nations and oligarchs are involved in.
The Saudi Prince's secret meetings with Israel immediately after leaving the world cup was a curious thing.
More pieces and their movements on the board revealed.
Await finding out what India's and Pakistan's notions are in all this.
India in general has decent relations with Iran . But it does with us Russia Israel too . Basically India normally tries to be everyone’s friend apart from China and Pakistan . So this would be messy just like how they’re trying to get some Iran oil still .

Pakistan seems unlikely as it wants China in its corner .
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,682
I think people are seeing "Israel, Saudi Arabia, Trump, and Putin" And they're like "THE NEW GRAND EVIL ALLIANCE" without thinking about it, the motivations of each actor, and the likelihood of any of it. It's not happening.

Israel and Russia are historic enemies, they're not becoming new friends for no reason. Europe and the US are still the tightest trade partner with Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and they're not going to foment new trade relations with Russia against American and European sanctions. Finally, while Russia has the most international influence over Iran, Iran is committed to supporting Assad and fighting the Syrian Civil War, and Russia's influence would not be strong enough to get them to drop support.

For some background, though:

Israel is not making any long-term alliances with Putin or Russia, because Russia has been the primary benefactor to Iran (and hence Assad in Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and -- previously -- Hamas in Israel / Palestinian Authority) for the last two decades. Russia and Iran have shared a weapons development and trade program since 1979 (originally this was filtered through China and North Korea), and it became an official arms trade agreement in 1992 after the fall of the Soviet Union, where the majority of Soviet military equipment and development was sold to Iran.

Russia does this for a number of reasons. First, during the decline of the USSR and its fall they needed the money. Second, because of arms control agreements between NATO/US and Russia, arms development programs had to be stalled and they sold the technology to Iran (through China, then North Korea) because it had nowhere else to go. Third, Russian arms sales gives foreign influence, much like American arms trade agreements... There's a reason Turkey has historically been so friendly to the US, sure, it's a (historically) secular government, but also because the US provides the majority of military technology to Turkey in exchange for bases, military training support, and shared middle east foreign policy.

Israel falls into this as a former ally of the Soviet Union. The USSR was the first country to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, because Stalin believed at the time that Zionist Israel was going to be a socialist state juxtaposed against Islamic/Muslim states that would be pro-Western. Remember, the USSR was the primary antagonist against Hitler in Europe, and Israel was founded by at least a plurality of European Jews who either survived the Holocaust or escaped Europe to other countries or directly to what would become Israel. The USSR oversaw arms trade to Israel through Czechoslovakia which proved decisive in the Arab-Israeli war of 1948. Their relationship fell apart chiefly over trade routes through the Suez Canal, and (by the time the western-backed Shah was overthrown in the Iranian Revolution) the USSR eventually became the primary weapons providers to Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, and other countries who would go onto war with Israel and its Western (Anti-soviet) backers.

This brings us back to the fall of the USSR, and through to today, with Russia being the primary international influence in Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, other Iranian proxy organizations, and previously, Hamas. And, of course, it brings us to the Syrian Civil War. The Assad regime is an Iranian proxy regime and its propped up by Iran; the Syrian Army is made up of both Syrians and Iranians, uses Iranian and Russian weapons, and gets training and military expertise from Iran. Russia backs Iran and Assad, but the war is a mess. Historically, Russia has also struggled with Islamic revolutionaries in Russia, and the Syrian Civil War is recruiting Chechnyan Muslims to fight for ISIS and the Syrian free army, who are then returning to Russia and fomenting anti-Kremlin support in Chechnya (remember, a region that Russia initially lost [or stalemated] a war in, only to then go back a decade later and completely crush/decimate the region brutally).

Russia's involvement in the Syrian CIvil War has been shrouded in denials and contradictory confirmations. This is typical of the Kremlin's attack on truth and information, and Russia regularly denies reports of any casualties in Syria. International groups have confirmed about ~100 Russian deaths in the Syrian Civil War, but independent organizations estimate the number could be as high as a 1,000, though probably much higher than whatever the Kremlin or Pravda confirm (... or deny, they'll often confirm Russian deaths on one news broadcast, and then deny them on the same program 10 minutes later). But, the larger problem for Russia is Chechnyan unrest and pressure on Russia from the West with sanctions (these sanctions primarily date back to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, poisoning of European ex-pats, expulsion of Western diplomats, the murder of Sergei Magnitsky, providing chemical weapons technology to Iran which was used by Assad against his own people, and then only recently involvement in European and American elections). Russia needs the income from trade to Iran to compensate for lost trade opportunities with Western sanctions.

The unlikely alliance from the the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, or other western-allied actors is that Russia has influence over Iran because of their trade agreements, both civilian and military. If Israel/Saudi/US/UAE convince Russia to pressure Iran to pull out of Syria, both militarily and through support to Assad, the Assad regime would fall or be crippled, which would benefit Israel and Saudi Arabia, and the terrorist organizations being developed during the Syrian civil war would collapse -- benefitting Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and any other Western organizations in the Middle East.

There are other civilian interests from Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Israel, as a friendlier relationship with Russia would open economic opportunities between those countries and Russia, creating a less antagonistic relationship. The people in these countries supporting warmer relations with Russia probably see the Trump administration as an opportunity: sanctions against Russia forbid a lot of foreign countries under trade agreements with the US and European countries of trading with Russia. Open trading with Russia would break other more important trade agreements with North America and Europe, but Trump's unpredictability and his seemingly cozy relationship with Putin, matched with (some) Republican congressmen seeming to oppose 2014 sanctions against Russia seem like an opportunity to push trade.

There are way more sinews here as well. Putin and Trump both have financial ties to the UAE. Under sanctions, Russians stashed cash away in UAE developments, likely investing in Trump Organization properties at the same time, it's not a coincidence that Trump -- unable to get lending in the US after his numerous bankruptcies and during the American financial collapse -- invested heavily in the Dubai, starting the Trump Dubai Golf Course & Resort. It's also likely that Russian oligarchs and businessmen connected to the Kremlin directed cash to these properties as laundering operations when the US and Europe passed new rounds of sanctions on Russia, and that the Trump Org cut its ties to Trump Dubai and sold their stake in it to the UAE-owned business (called Nakheel) overseeing the program (which then licensed it to the Palms company IIRC). The UAE has a similar makeup to the Russian oligarchy, most of the wealthiest businesses and businessmen are either directly in government or have ties to government, and where a Russian oligarch's interest ends and where the Kremlin or Putins interests begins is unclear, and the UAE is similar.

Still, it's unlikely:
  • Russia has less influence over Iran than optimists in Saudi Arabia and Israel would think
  • Trump has less influence over congress to remove sanctions than optimists would think
  • Iran not supporting Assad and the Syrian Civl War is unlikely, and even if they abandoned Assad (Which would never happen, Assad is Iran's strongest proxy in the Middle East), it's not a guarantee that Assad would fall immediately or a more friendly government to Saudia Arabia or the UAE would take it's place
  • Israel's closest ally is the US, and even if Trump is warming to Putin, Israel still has a lot of bipartisan legislative allies in both the Democratic & Republican parties. Trump could lose in 2020, it'd be a huge gamble for Israel that likely would pay off less than maintaining the status quo.

... and sadly, I think this is another post where I start typing when the thread is new, and by the time I finish, the thread is dead :-D
 
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The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,682
How is this not a bigger story?
1. It's unlikely
2. Most of the backstory is from 2016, prior to Trump becoming president
3. It doesn't fit into a convenient headline or drive-by reaction
4. It's a lot of conjecture

This deal is supremely dumb because once sanctions are dropped, they don't return easily but the Iranians can return to Syria any time. Unless the leaders of Israel, UAE and KSA are dumb enough to take Putin's word. They might be though.
Yep, this is a good take. I think they'd be hoping that the US relaxing sanctions on Russia would open up trade agreements between the UAE, Israel, Saudis, and Russia.

It's still a massive, unlikely gamble. American sanctions on Russia (Magnitsky Act in 2012, Ukranian invasion in 2014, Diplomatic poisoning in 2016, and US election interference in 2017) have been passed by Congress and could not easily be reversed. Even if some congressmen are expressing doubts, there's not majority momentum among conservatives, and Democrats (who had historically been more relaxed on Russian sanctions than Republicans) now see Russia as their primary international antagonist and would never relax them.

How much of Israel’s population is from Russia?
Large, smaller than Western Europe, but larger than other places or origin... though most from "Russia" would have been from countries crushed by the USSR between WW1 and WW2, and then after WW2 -- Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, etc. Jews had been the targets of Russian pogroms for centuries. During the RUssian revolution, the Bolsheviks considered Jews an illegal people, though this stopped in 1917, but Jews would make up a huge number of victims during the Great Purge in the second half of the 1930s. Unlike in Nazi germany, where Jews were targeted for their Jewishness to be exterminated, Jewish victims of the Purge weren't explicitly targeted for being Jewish, they just happened to make up a huge portion of the groups being targeted by Stalin.

And after ~1950, few Israelis had any warm feelings for the Soviet Union, as the USSR would come to support countries that Israel was at war with (though initially, the Soviet Union supported Israel in the 1948 Arab-Israel Conflict, thinking that Zionists would form a socialist state)
 
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