• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Former Insomniac dev: Rivet in R&C Rift Apart almost had noticeable breasts and wider hips to be more feminine-looking

Hero of Legend

Hero of Legend

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,606
Had to make a thread as we need more spotlight on shit and not just have it get drowned in pre-existing threads. Read the one about their awful treatment of women here.

This was just posted yesterday by a former employee of Insomniac going by Xavier, and he goes into quite a bit of detail about a heated debate about how Rivet almost was more feminine, but luckily wasn't done so in the end it seems:



Key quotes (PLEASE READ THE ACTUAL TWITTER THREAD FOR FULL CONTEXT):

Something for my fellow men in gamedev, especially those just now entering the industry:

There are a lot of things you may run into that aren't directly harmful to people in the same way as sexual harassment, but they still contribute to hostile environments and harm.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
When I was on the latest Ratchet and Clank game, there was an incredibly heated discussion that happened between the game director, art director, the lead writer, the lead character TD, and myself.

It was about Rivet, the female lead.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The discussion — or argument, really — was basically about whether we should make Rivet look more stereotypically feminine looking. That is, should she have wider hips, visible breasts (or bumps in her suit), and other physical traits we normally associate with cartoony women.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The argument basically broke down like this:

The game director and art director wanted her to have a visibly, fairly stereotypically feminine look.

The lead writer, the lead character TD, and I wanted to keep her as-is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We believed that:

1. It went against the message of the game, which is that anyone can be a hero regardless of how they look
2. You don't need to be stereotypically feminine to be a woman
3. RIVET IS A FUCKING ALIEN SPACE FOX, JUST LIKE RATCHET
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The argument had been going on for about half an hour before I finally pulled one of the framed Ratchet and Clank posters down from the wall, put it in front of both leads, and told them to look at the damn thing and tell me how much Ratchet looked like a human man.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The argument largely petered out after that point, with all parties leaving incredibly frustrated, and myself leaving the company a few weeks later.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So.

Fellow men in gamedev.

This is an example of one of the VERY SMALL THINGS that build up over time to make life miserable for women and marginalized people in our industry.

Something as simple as putting titties on a space rat can harm people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Now this reminds me when, no joke, I remember someone at Insomniac on twitter NOT SO SUBTLY implying they designed Rivet to appeal to the umm... "naughty" side of the fandom. Which I was reminded of when recent shit came out, and this thread only makes that even worse. Jeez.

Very proud of Xavier for standing up for women and telling those pushing for this stereotypically feminine direction to essentially fuck off. But this is just another example of the sexist garbage going on at Insomniac that should NOT be ignored, no matter how purdy their games look. Make them accountable. Treat and respect women equally and properly. They are NOT objects for your gaze or slaves to do all the work for men. God I hate this world sometimes.
 
catswaller

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
lmfao, thats so stupid. Writer td and this dude are heros.


Shes still oversexualized compared to ratchet imo but overall the deaign actually in the game is great.
 
AlexFlame116

AlexFlame116

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
23,177
Utah
What the hell?! Its ridiculous that there was even am argument about this. Good on the writer, the lead character designer, and Xavier for this.
 
NinjaScooter

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,120
The obsession with putting breasts on the female version of anything in fiction is just bananas. Is it like, the only way some people know how to differentiate male from female?
 
Hey Please

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
From OP:


We believed that:

1. It went against the message of the game, which is that anyone can be a hero regardless of how they look
2. You don't need to be stereotypically feminine to be a woman
3. RIVET IS A FUCKING ALIEN SPACE FOX, JUST LIKE RATCHET
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The argument had been going on for about half an hour before I finally pulled one of the framed Ratchet and Clank posters down from the wall, put it in front of both leads, and told them to look at the damn thing and tell me how much Ratchet looked like a human man.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

These are such logical and great points.

I blame the fucking plague that designs have to be "relatable" and how it has affected alien designs, esp. one designated to be "Female" to look like thirsty men's idealized human woman (including games like Mass Effect). Talk about perpetuating tropes....
 
TheChrisGlass

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,605
Los Angeles, CA
Reminds me of Bluey

AXaGMgB.jpg


I only recently discovered that the only male character in this family is the father. Never watched it, only saw pictures.
And yet, even without giving them bows, eyelashes, lipsticks and boobs, the show does EXTREMELY well.
 
DeoGame

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
Hero of Legend said:
Now this reminds me when, no joke, I remember someone at Insomniac on twitter NOT SO SUBTLY implying they designed Rivet to appeal to the umm... "naughty" side of the fandom. Which I was reminded of when recent shit came out, and this thread only makes that even worse. Jeez.
.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...



I may be misremembering another tweet though.
 
Last edited:
HMS_Pinafore

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,146
Straya M8
Remember when the new Space Jam was announced and the discourse was around people getting mad that Lola didn't have massive tits? Well it turns out the people who were mad weren't just dumb teen-agers but were also adults who have jobs.
 
hikarutilmitt

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,406
The poster pulling line is the big brain move for every reason imagineable.

Also, this reeks of why the female Predator in Hunting Grounds is more shapely and "feminine" even though there's an established, though not technically canon, species thing about the females Predators being these big hulking brutes that are even larger than the males.

TheChrisGlass said:
Reminds me of Bluey

AXaGMgB.jpg


I only recently discovered that the only male character in this family is the father. Never watched it, only saw pictures.
And yet, even without giving them bows, eyelashes, lipsticks and boobs, the show does EXTREMELY well.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Our family loves this show. It goes over very well with our 2yo, but it's definitely got stuff there for parents.

That being said, I thought for a while that Bluey (the blue one, duh) was a boy and Bingo (the small brown one) was a girl because they looked like their respective parent dogs. Our surprise when they said "your sister" to Bingo. And this is including the Hammerbarn episode with them talking about "my husband" and it was just innocent kid talk that I had no issues with this possible 6yo blue dog playing with "his" little sister. Later episodes made more sense once I knew they were both girls.
 
HardRojo

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,096
Peru
Good to see the right decision was made in the end, but a shame that such a discussion happened in the first place.
 
Bane

Bane

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,905
I like that he had to take such measures to try to show them how stupid their thinking was. So dumb.
 
Instant Vintage

Instant Vintage

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,983
I'm so fucking glad the right decision was made.

The male gaze should have zero place to rest. Anywhere. Especially in video games.

It took someone having to beat the others over the head with actual logic before they even considered conceding. That's ridiculous.

Also, why would you want a space fox with boobs? Could you imagine the queen xenomorph from Aliens with boobs and hips to show that she's feminine? I can't roll my eyes hard enough.
 
ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Well they dodged a bullet there. Good on the team for arguing with the directors and ultimately getting the right call implemented.
 
Hey Please

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Kyuuji said:
It is men that work to prevent that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And that is why we need more anti-discriminatory lawsuits like the one we're seeing from Act-Bliz to pave the way for better change. But yes, members within the old guard, men, esp. cis white hetero men who rank as majority of the game development community in the west, are the gate-keepers. Until they are gone, toxicity will remain a very notable part of the status quo.

Also, lest it go unsaid, the gaming community at large is still toxic AF and they champion these pernicious ideologies and their propagators under various guises of "Freedom", "anti-sjw" etc.
 
DeoGame

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
EntelechyFuff said:
that's...the same guy. Weird.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what to make of it. He did push to have Rivet more muscular than Ratchet as well which was a well received move.

Ultimately, it could just be the fact that she's a cool character? My best friend is a furry and like 90% of the community supposedly are just in it for the antropromorphic animals. But it's kinda an odd tweet.
 

Seventy5

Member
Mar 14, 2020
66
I guess I'm not seeing why we should be outraged by this. People don't automatically see everything the same. The fact that this was a discussion and they ended up in the right place is a good thing, isn't it? Insomniac created the most inclusive game I (as a black male) have ever played in Miles Morales, so maybe I'm more willing to give them credit for making positive change in the industry.

Some people just don't understand how change works, but I can tell you, going from characters like fucking Barrett to where we are now is proof positive that things are moving in the right direction.
 
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,165
I still have no fucking clue how this happens in a professional environment by directors of all people. What the fuck.

Get your shit together and watch some fucking GDC talks what the fuck. This kind of shit screams not just unprofessionalism but incompetency and women are left to bring sense where there is apparently none.

And i bet they were all like "we had a great discussion with disagreements and strong opinions and we all came out better because of it, this is team work 💪" or some fucking bullshit like that. Let me see THAT slack thread.
 
Euphoria

Euphoria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,509
Earth
Sometimes I can't help but just find shit to be so weird.

Not every character based on an animal needs to have breasts and be sexualized. Boob armor is one of the biggest culprits for me in just about every title like Skyrim.

Gaming doesn't always need to be so pervy.


Glad they went with the right choice here.
 
Jedi2016

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,622
I mean, the character is already very feminine.. when she first dropped into the first teaser, it was instantly apparent that the character was female, mission accomplished. I've wondered whether they still pushed her too far into "cute" territory even in the final design, but tits were not required in either case.
 
NediarPT88

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,081
Guess the director/lead wanted to go with something like this:

latest
latest



Glad Xavier and the other two people involved opinion prevailed in the end:

latest
latest


Rivet looks amazing.
 
Winnie

Winnie

Member
Mar 12, 2020
2,621
Yes, they didn't do it at the end, but this isn't good news, these 3 people didn't work at Insomniac anymore:




I don't know if this discussion have something to do with their departure, but i imagine that it does.
 
Hey Please

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Seventy5 said:
I guess I'm not seeing why we should be outraged by this. People don't automatically see everything the same. The fact that this was a discussion and they ended up in the right place is a good thing, isn't it? Insomniac created the most inclusive game I (as a black male) have ever played in Miles Morales, so maybe I'm more willing to give them credit for making positive change in the industry.

Some people just don't understand how change works, but I can tell you, going from characters like fucking Barrett to where we are now is proof positive that things are moving in the right direction.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The end product thankfully turned out for the better but the tweets underscore the lines of thoughts that are in steeped in sexist and rigid ideologies and tropes which become the fulcrum of arguments and how as the gaming industry that is trying to appeal to a broader audience should have realized the ills of pursuing such problematic ideals.
 
jph139

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,368
EntelechyFuff said:
that's...the same guy. Weird.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, there's a lot bundled up there.

- Furry culture isn't necessarily sexual in nature.
- There's a needle to be threaded that allows for the appreciation of sex appeal in characters without presenting them in a way that's alienating or demeaning (and, generally, traditionally heteronormative).
- A desire for diversity in body types often goes hand in hand with a desire for diverse body types to be portrayed in an attractive and appealing way.
 
Adulfzen

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,606
Seventy5 said:
I guess I'm not seeing why we should be outraged by this. People don't automatically see everything the same. The fact that this was a discussion and they ended up in the right place is a good thing, isn't it? Insomniac created the most inclusive game I (as a black male) have ever played in Miles Morales, so maybe I'm more willing to give them credit for making positive change in the industry.

Some people just don't understand how change works, but I can tell you, going from characters like fucking Barrett to where we are now is proof positive that things are moving in the right direction.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You should probably read up on this :

www.gamesindustry.biz

Ubisoft and Insomniac face allegations over mistreatment of women

Original story, June 24, 2020: Ubisoft and Insomniac Games are under fire after employees both past and present came fo…
www.gamesindustry.biz www.gamesindustry.biz
 
You must log in or register to reply here.