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spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380




https://twitter.com/emilybuckshot/status/1066754954323357696

These types of practices are pretty obvious if you look at the end product in many games, but these seem more subtle and point to a culture of objectification inside the company as well. Not all of these come through in the end product, and sometimes they're just hidden (like heels). I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff is more commonplace than we'd think.
 

Son Lamar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,238
Alabama




https://twitter.com/emilybuckshot/status/1066754954323357696

These types of practices are pretty obvious if you look at the end product in many games, but these seem more subtle and point to a culture of objectification inside the company as well. Not all of these come through in the end product, and sometimes they're just hidden (like heels). I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff is more commonplace than we'd think.

What's NF in the tweet??

Also lol heels during a zombie apocalypse
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
So, does this mean that it's usually the publisher that mandates these types of designs onto developers? Or is this more specific to Telltale?
 

DVCY201

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,166
So, the camera has never shown the feet of women characters? Wow, if I ever play another Telltale game, I'll have to keep my eye for that
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,186
I'm not overly familiar with telltale's later games, but Lee from The Walkibg Dead always struck me as a well designed poc. I don't really remember women being objectified in the walking dead either. I do recall the Wolf Among Us being more problematic (this is where I dropped off), but nowhere near as bad as other games I played.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
So, does this mean that it's usually the publisher that mandates these types of designs onto developers? Or is this more specific to Telltale?
I would guess the publisher has mandates in many cases. Look at how EA games and almost by convention MANY publishers around 2011 tried to create characters that had the look of an attractive white actress with emphasised curves, and then in 2014 they totally flipped it on its head with characters that people called "ugly". Examples are your pilot in LucasGames's Star Wars The Force Unleashed who has these weirdly emphasised teeth or Yvonne Strahovski as Miranda in Mass Effect or Ellen Page.

I can't confirm or deny anything but I've always thought it seems there are corporate mandates of branding the characters and that's how you went from having a ten-hut female soldier in the first Mass Effect before it was under EA called Ashley to having her become a Space Babe in the third game. Dead Space 2 also came around in that 2010-2011 era and also needed to have some female attractive companion. Seemed pretty by the book to me.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,500
I never ever again want to hear some fuckwit arguing for the sexualisation of female characters as somehow being de facto the artistic intent of the developers. I think we have enough anecdotes at this point to suggest that this often comes from on high, as some cynical attempt to drum up sales. The people in charge of these companies think so little of gamers and instead of that generating outrage, "censorship" whining of anime titties seems to instead.

Us gamers, huh.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I never ever again want to hear some fuckwit arguing for the sexualisation of female characters as somehow being de facto the artistic intent of the developers. I think we have enough anecdotes at this point to suggest that this often comes from on high, as some cynical attempt to drum up sales. The people in charge of these companies think so little of gamers and instead of that generating outrage, "censorship" whining of anime titties seems to instead.

Us gamers, huh.
Given what I hear a number of guys describe recent BioWare female character were they've designed them as not completely just about being attractive, as "shrek", "mannish", "lesbian" and a guy who actually made a gif to overlay a "male" and "female skull" on Cassandra from DAI's face to "prove" she was really a man, the people in charge of these companies are right to think so little of the traditional gamer. Luckily, they also seem to realise there are other audiences that may be just as important to target.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,800
It's weird because it doesn't particularly come across that way in the end product, in my opinion. I think it's ridiculous to think you can't have a realistic female character without needing to make them more sexually appealing bit idiotic and horrible practices like that are probably why TellTale ended up how they did. Seems like the management was just awful.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Given what I hear a number of guys describe recent BioWare female character were they've designed them as not completely just about being attractive, as "shrek", "mannish", "lesbian" and a guy who actually made a gif to overlay a "male" and "female skull" on Cassandra from DAI's face to "prove" she was really a man, the people in charge of these companies are right to think so little of the traditional gamer. Luckily, they also seem to realise there are other audiences that may be just as important to target.
which sells more though?

I'm not a marketing expert, but we can all make guesses amongst ourselves. If there's a game where the main female chars are all:

"-wrinkles -thick necks -fat arms -messy hair -flat shoes -larger waistlines -gapless thighs"

Versus traditionally attractive chars... well I think the latter game would sell more. That's my guess.

Before you reply -- please note, I am obviously *not* saying there are literally zero people who would buy the first game. What I'm asking is which game will sell a higher number. That's all that matters.

When you're in charge of a company whose goal is to make money, that's the consideration. To capture the largest potential percentage of sales.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
which sells more though?

I'm not a marketing expert, but we can all make guesses amongst ourselves. If there's a game where the main female chars are all:

"-wrinkles -thick necks -fat arms -messy hair -flat shoes -larger waistlines -gapless thighs"

Versus traditionally attractive chars... well I think the latter game would sell more. That's my guess.

Before you reply -- please note, I am obviously *not* saying there are literally zero people who would buy the first game. What I'm asking is which game will sell a higher number. That's all that matters.

When you're in charge of a company whose goal is to make money, that's the consideration. To capture the largest potential percentage of sales.

Well, I think there should be a mix of both. It's not having very voluptuous women that is the issue, it's having a lack of diversity with the designs of women that is. Why can't games have a mix of women of multiple personalities and physical builds?
 

newgamewhodis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
820
Brooklyn
That's all that matters.

No. If we accept games are art, which is an argument that has already been accepted by academia, the industry, and gaming journalism, then we have to accept that business's bottom lines aren't the only influence in a product's creation.

This is the same cynical argument that is used to defend all convention. If it were true, no innovation would happen in art or media, since money-makers would have no incentive to take risks or challenge the status quo.

Worth noting that Telltale's best known female character - Clementine - was one of their designs that wasn't sexualized/objectified.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
which sells more though?

I'm not a marketing expert, but we can all make guesses amongst ourselves. If there's a game where the main female chars are all:

"-wrinkles -thick necks -fat arms -messy hair -flat shoes -larger waistlines -gapless thighs"

Versus traditionally attractive chars... well I think the latter game would sell more. That's my guess.

Before you reply -- please note, I am obviously *not* saying there are literally zero people who would buy the first game. What I'm asking is which game will sell a higher number. That's all that matters.

When you're in charge of a company whose goal is to make money, that's the consideration. To capture the largest potential percentage of sales.
There's a wide amount of men of different appearances and builds in games. Everyone is fine with that. The gaming landscape is changing and games are no longer relaying completely on the male demographic - I've seen Dragon Age Inquisition have studies which suggested that 50% of the audience was women. Do you think a game will still sell if you only make one type of female character making it very clear who exactly you are designing for? Excluding half the world's population is not good business sense.
 

elcapitano

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
69
User Banned (3 Days): Dismissing sexism and false equivalences
I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,460
When I think about Telltale, I don't think of objectifying/sexualizing designs. Maybe a bit in TWAU, but definitely not in TWD.

I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.
Just because a man has an athletic body does not mean he is sexualized/objectified. Nathan Drake isn't scantily clad or with camera angles focusing on his crotch and ass. His body isn't even overly athletic, and he wears a long sleeve henley. I guess he has 2 buttons undone though, the tease.
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.
Here's a thread were you might actually learn a few things (SPOILERS!! Women and men characters are nowhere near treated the same)
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...ave-no-pants-and-i-must-scream-read-op.65064/
 
OP
OP
spam musubi

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.

If you look at male character body types in telltale games there's a much greater variety. Also nice casual dismissal of sexism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
which sells more though?

I'm not a marketing expert, but we can all make guesses amongst ourselves. If there's a game where the main female chars are all:

"-wrinkles -thick necks -fat arms -messy hair -flat shoes -larger waistlines -gapless thighs"

Versus traditionally attractive chars... well I think the latter game would sell more. That's my guess.

Before you reply -- please note, I am obviously *not* saying there are literally zero people who would buy the first game. What I'm asking is which game will sell a higher number. That's all that matters.

When you're in charge of a company whose goal is to make money, that's the consideration. To capture the largest potential percentage of sales.
Sex appeal helps get eyes on your game, but the way you're framing it is reductive. Try to think more broadly. Where do you think sex appeal would have a bigger impact in a game's marketing? Say, a 3d fighter aimed at teenage boys and young men, or an adventure game aimed at an older audience of men and women? On the other side of the coin, would season 1 of The Walking Dead have been more appealing to young men is Lee was more athletic, more aggressive, and more violent like an action hero? How would that have changed the game?
 

elcapitano

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
69
If you look at male character body types in telltale games there's a much greater variety. Also nice casual dismissal of sexism.

Maybe more variety I guess but even the wolf among us Sheriff Bigby is the most sexualized character no? Always has his shirt off. Unless I am misremembering it been a while since I have played it.

All i was saying is maybe the argument should be for both no?
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
This trend towards more sexualisation and objectification is simply because there are more people who are attracted by that shit than repulsed by it, so publishers see it as a straight cost/benefit. You see it in other commercial forms of entertainment with a large following among certain types of nerdy guy, such as anime.

I've been watching Legend of Galactic Heroes recently, and was struck by how little of that shit is in it. There are male characters who are creepy womanisers, but they are never really shown majorly creeping out on screen and everyone else either makes fun of them for it or calls them out. There are women characters, and although they do conform to gender stereotypes of being more considerate and caring they are never depicted as sexual objects, even though there are relationships between the characters. Basically, they are depicted as you'd expect considering just about everyone is in the military.

If a show like that were made today it'd be full of moe crap, with the female characters uniforms being drawn with a low cut top and wide sparkling anime eyes. Things are getting worse.
 
OP
OP
spam musubi

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Maybe more variety I guess but even the wolf among us Sheriff Bigby is the most sexualized character no? Always has his shirt off. Unless I am misremembering it been a while since I have played it.

All i was saying is maybe the argument should be for both no?

Honestly, this argument is so tired that I'm not even going to bother. Maybe someone else who's more bored can entertain your goalpost moving.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
I don't remember any walking dead characters wearing heels. They all wore shoes/boots. Lot of characters wore them in twau and borderlands though
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Honestly, this argument is so tired that I'm not even going to bother. Maybe someone else who's more bored can entertain your goalpost moving.
I gave him the link to the Why Woman criticise Sexualised Designs thread? SO if he is actually being sincere, he can learn if he wants to. Given how many of those types of "Guy characters get sexualised too!" posts I;ve seen, it's more likely not sincere, but we can hope :P
 

ket

Member
Jul 27, 2018
12,969
I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.

Aw man
 

Ringu

Member
Nov 1, 2017
106
Germany
Ah wow! They are doing a modern remake? Is it good so far???
One season for now, and a few movies next year. It's... just okay. Closer to the novels, but no real differences for now (no classic music, new OST by Sawano, the attack on titan composer). Mostly the same designs as the long Ova series, with a bit more color and (in my eyes) good Cg. And now I killed the thread...
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,630
I mean every male character in gaming is sexualized too. Nathan Drake and all the like are peak males and fit the unrealistic body image argument. So really its less a women thing and more an over-sexualization of both genders thing. But is that even really a major problem, like there are more pressing concerns in the world.

Yeah, Mario shows his nipples now, men and women are sexualised exactly the same.

There are more pressing issues than idly chatting about video games, why are you even here?
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,478
"F***ability pass" seems like just not using the euphemism for something which virtually every game does for female characters

(And the occasional male characters, but only for specific reasons like them being Bioware romances rather than by default)
 

hassler

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
295
Shit
Well, I'm lucky I worked on a game with female lead where they pushed for more down-to-earth design and general memo was "she need to look like she doesn't really care about her looks".
I hope more game studios will go this way.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
For a long time now I've been a little miffed by that same kind of subtle sexualisation in practice with Rainbow Six: Siege's character designs and I've harped about it in the OT from time to time to some others' distress, probably. If you look at the vanilla characters, they're all more armored and their faces are concealed. Almost every female DLC character has foregone a mask or other protective headwear when anonymity is extremely important in the special operations groups these characters belong to. In addition often female DLC characters completely forego bulletproof vests, which isn't excused by their light armor gameplay rating, because many characters with a light armor rating wear vests. All the male ones do, in fact.

Here are pics of obvious examples that hopefully make what I'm talking about clear.

Vanilla:

EVWKPIi.jpg


DLC:

Grvpu9v.jpg


Technically, the face thing applies kind of to every character because vanilla Siege had pretty primitive facial animation. Since it's been upgraded DLC character designs have much more often been without concealing headwear, but that aside, there is a trend of female characters foregoing concealing headwear alongside the male counterparts of their DLC pack who come with them wearing masks i.e. Dokkaebi & Vigil, Finka & Lion.

They've also gone back to vanilla and old DLC characters to make them more attractive. The first character used as an example above, Twitch, has been wholly redesigned.

GtX8cbw.jpg


Note the slightly thinner, tighter, brighter appearance.

poIJZeo.jpg


Valkyrie's old face was complained about and memed on enough for them to redo it. Solemnly tell me that's a bad face model. It isn't. It's not an attractive face by typical standards; I don't find it extremely attractive. It's a strong face. But it isn't a bad face model. C'mon. Therein lies the issue—these characters are the highest level combat forces operatives, attractiveness isn't really a requirement. Not that they can't be pretty, but pretty is all people out there want and all creators out there give. And how important is pretty for Siege? A game ostensibly about soldiers tactically destroying and killing in a semi-grounded setting. That isn't a pretty thing by most standards, is it?
 
Last edited:

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,437
For a long time now I've been a little miffed by that same kind of subtle sexualisation in practice with Rainbow Six: Siege's character designs and I've harped about it in the OT from time to time to some others' distress, probably. If you look at the vanilla characters, they're all more armored and their faces are concealed. Almost every female DLC character has foregone a mask or other protective headwear when anonymity is extremely important in the special operations groups these characters belong to. In addition often female DLC characters completely forego bulletproof vests, which isn't excused by their light armor gameplay rating, because many characters with a light armor rating wear vests. All the male ones do, in fact.

Here are pics of obvious examples that hopefully make what I'm talking about clear.

Vanilla:

EVWKPIi.jpg


DLC:

Grvpu9v.jpg


Technically, the face thing applies kind of to every character because vanilla Siege had pretty primitive facial animation. Since it's been upgraded DLC character designs have much more often been without concealing headwear, but that aside, there is a trend of female characters foregoing concealing headwear alongside the male counterparts of their DLC pack who come with them wearing masks i.e. Dokkaebi & Vigil, Finka & Lion.

They've also gone back to vanilla and old DLC characters to make them more attractive. The first character used as an example above, Twitch, has been wholly redesigned.

GtX8cbw.jpg


Note the slightly thinner, tighter, brighter appearance.

poIJZeo.jpg


Valkyrie's old face was complained about and memed on enough for them to redo it. Solemnly tell me that's a bad face model. It isn't. It's not an attractive face by typical standards; I don't find it extremely attractive. It's a strong face. But it isn't a bad face model. C'mon. Therein lies the issue—these characters are the highest level combat forces operatives, attractiveness isn't really a requirement. Not they can't be pretty, but pretty is all people out there want and all creators out there give. And how important is pretty for Siege? A game ostensibly about soldiers tactically destroying and killing in a semi-grounded setting. That isn't a pretty thing by most standards, is it?

I still hate the redesign that Twtich got just so they could sell more skins of her, some without a facemask at all so she could just be attractive french lady. IQ has definitely gone that way as well over time culimating in her elite skin.
 

okayfrog

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,968
Solemnly tell me that's a bad face model. It isn't. It's not an attractive face by typical standards; I don't find it extremely attractive. It's a strong face.
Probably a dumb question, but are there women out there with strong jawlines like the model on the left? It looks unnatural to me. A strong jawline seems like a male feature to me.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
I still hate the redesign that Twtich got just so they could sell more skins of her, some without a facemask at all so she could just be attractive french lady. IQ has definitely gone that way as well over time culimating in her elite skin.
In addtion to that redesign, Twitch's face recently went through another revision in the Grim Sky update for those wondering.

37R7T5Y.jpg


And here is the IQ skin in question.

LRFAdUm.jpg
Probably a dumb question, but are there women out there with strong jawlines like the model on the left? It looks unnatural to me. A strong jawline seems like a male feature to me.
It's a dumb question.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
To be honest? Most games avoid showing bare feet for anyone; be they male or female.

Almost all 3D game character models are built with their footwear surgically attached to their body; it's a very basic performance and time saving measure. Why bother wasting time, money and graphics performance modelling feet and toes that you will never see during the game anyway?

That being said?

I also remember hearing revisions to female characters to make them younger/whiter/more attractive as 'fuckability passes'. I'm still mad about how they whitewashed/aged down Kate in NF. :(

That is pretty damning and disgusting. No defence for this at all.