Formula One - Off Season Discussion Thread!

[Stop It]

Tell me....

Last time the WDC and WCC went to the same team where:
1. 2nd driver failed to win a race
2. Consistently finished out of podium places when car 1 won the race.
3. Had only TWO DNF all season, meaning he had a reliable car.
4. Finished 5th in drivers standing while winning the WCC.

He's had some bad luck and had a win stolen from him. But I can't recall a more mediocre performance from a driver whose team won the WCC and consistently had a car capable of winning virtually every race.

He finished behind Verstappen for 5th. He should be kicking himself.

What sucks is virtually anyone from the midfield would have done a better job.

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Closest I can find is 2005 where Alonso beasted Fisichella (Over double his points) but he actually won Australia.

2006 was closer for Fisichella but still not close.

Bottas should have done far better than he did in the car for sure. He's not a *bad* driver but he's not too level. He's Perez/Ocon sort of quality.

Anyway, 2019 predictions time! Leclerc should provide some headache for Ferrari next year IRT team orders especially if he starts well.

I think Sauber will take over the mantle of Ferrari B team with 2 decent drivers and better management along with a closer relationship with Ferrari.

Force India (Stroll Racing Team) will do better next year with actual money. STR will be moving forward you would imagine too.

Ferrari and Mercedes will hope that Honda produce a dud otherwise RBR will be firing into the WCC fight.

Renault will struggle but fight hard to try to get into Formula 1 from Formula 1.5 and Haas will use the 2018 Ferrari to make that jump too potentially.

If McLaren don't make strides next year, especially with Key and Fry on board, I'm just quitting watching F1. I've been a McLaren fan since Iron Chin Coulthard joined and the last 5 years have been brutal.

With apologies to Russell and Kubica (Who is one of my favourite drivers):

Williams are shit, that is all.

 

[andshrew]

Tell me....

Last time the WDC and WCC went to the same team where:
1. 2nd driver failed to win a race
2. Consistently finished out of podium places when car 1 won the race.
3. Had only TWO DNF all season, meaning he had a reliable car.
4. Finished 5th in drivers standing while winning the WCC.

He's had some bad luck and had a win stolen from him. But I can't recall a more mediocre performance from a driver whose team won the WCC and consistently had a car capable of winning virtually every race.

He finished behind Verstappen for 5th. He should be kicking himself.

What sucks is virtually anyone from the midfield would have done a better job.

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To cut Bottas some slack, the current formula does not help you win races if you aren't qualifying on the front row on a Saturday and it's been a competitive year for the top three teams meaning you needed to 'find that something special' if you wanted to get there. Infact I think the vast majority of races this year were won from the front row. If you consider the two races where he had pole he had one where he subsequently broke down, and one where he wasn't allowed to win. They no longer have such a dominant car that they have the ability to 1-2 every race, and with it being virtually impossible to overtake on track you're basically stuck where you are after the first lap - even in Hamilton's hands the Mercedes did not work well at all once it was in the dirty air of another car.

I don't understand the calls to put someone like Ocon in the car when Mercedes clearly has a good team harmony at the moment. It's going to be one of their strongest advantages next year.

 

[AlsoZ]

Bottas should have done far better than he did in the car for sure. He's not a *bad* driver but he's not too level. He's Perez/Ocon sort of quality.

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Funny you'd say that, with Ocon being the only "inhouse" replacement on the cards for Bottas. They could obviously hire anyone without a long term contract, but who's an improvement and not currently locked in until the end of 2020?

 

[Stop It]

Funny you'd say that, with Ocon being the only "inhouse" replacement on the cards for Bottas. They could obviously hire anyone without a long term contract, but who's an improvement and not currently locked in until the end of 2020?

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Officially locked in but I'm sure would jump is Danny.

He is in a good position for next year. If the Renault is on the right track he stays, if not he can jump to Mercedes.

Other than that? If Russell proves himself he will be in the frame too. In terms of top talent though Mercedes aren't really going to get a lot better considering they can't get Max and I would say that Bottas isn't too much slower than Ocon, Perez, the Hulk and Sainz, the other good drivers on the grid. Kimi obviously would've been quicker than Bottas but he's getting old now.

 

[Berto]

Im a huge Mclaren fan and I dont really care what happens with the sport itself, just want Mclaren back near the front. Its terribly depressing watching races nowadays.

 

[ryodi]

Honda are definitely going to get thrown under the bus by Red Bull next season. Newey cars are always fast but fragile and the end of the Renault relationship has proved any problem is never RB's fault. I also expect Gasly and LeClerc to have a few incidents with Max because they aren't going to jump out of the way like some of the older drivers when he tries to overtake.

 

[Nyx]

If Honda makes a competitive engine which can compete with Ferrari and Merc, Verstappen is going to be WC.

No doubt about it.

 

[AlsoZ]

If Honda makes a competitive engine which can compete with Ferrari and Merc, Verstappen is going to be WC.

No doubt about it.

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I don't know if the Red Bull engineers even remember how to make a car that doesn't have to compensate for an engine deficit. It's been their defining characteristic during the Hybrid era.

 

[Nyx]

I don't know if the Red Bull engineers even remember how to make a car that doesn't have to compensate for an engine deficit. It's been their defining characteristic during the Hybrid era.

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Ha! That might be true. We will see! :)

 

[Deleted member 11426]

If Honda makes a competitive engine which can compete with Ferrari and Merc, Verstappen is going to be WC.

No doubt about it.

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Gotta see if he can manage a season where he has something to lose.

 

[Norwegian Rudo]

I don't know if the Red Bull engineers even remember how to make a car that doesn't have to compensate for an engine deficit. It's been their defining characteristic during the Hybrid era.

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They build their entire car to be fast in the corners and then blame the engine when it's not as fast on the straights as others. That's been their M.O since long before the hybrid era.

The chances that Honda build an engine that is not only competitive but also reliable is tiny. And that is without even taking into account that RB leave no room for cooling, and of course blame the engine manufacturer when it fails.

 

[ascagnel]

If Honda makes a competitive engine which can compete with Ferrari and Merc, Verstappen is going to be WC.

No doubt about it.

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Considering what we've seen over the past few years, that's a pretty big "if".

 

[Ty4on]

What is RBR Honda is just... Exactly the same as RBR Renault lol

I'm interested in what the new Renault engine looks like though. Seems like they maybe never got away from early design mistakes like a combined turbo.

 

[sixclix]

Tell me....

Last time the WDC and WCC went to the same team where:
1. 2nd driver failed to win a race
2. Consistently finished out of podium places when car 1 won the race.
3. Had only TWO DNF all season, meaning he had a reliable car.
4. Finished 5th in drivers standing while winning the WCC.

He's had some bad luck and had a win stolen from him. But I can't recall a more mediocre performance from a driver whose team won the WCC and consistently had a car capable of winning virtually every race.

He finished behind Verstappen for 5th. He should be kicking himself.

What sucks is virtually anyone from the midfield would have done a better job.

Click to shrink...

Haven't checked all of your criteria, but my guesses are Massa, Raikkonen & Barrichelo. And that's just the last 10 years.

 

[Tygre]

If Honda makes a competitive engine which can compete with Ferrari and Merc, Verstappen is going to be WC.

No doubt about it.

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Eventually? Absolutely, of course. Verstappen should be a multi-WDC by the end of his career, no doubt.

Next year? No way. He's still too young, too error prone and too mentally fragile. In a three way fight, Hamilton will have him and Leclerc for breakfast.

 

[NihonTiger]

Haven't checked all of your criteria, but my guesses are Massa, Raikkonen & Barrichelo. And that's just the last 10 years.

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I've gone back to 1980 and haven't found one yet. Closest I got was Rubens in 2001, but he podiumed regularly and finished 3rd in the end of the year standings.

 

[KillerMan91]

Tell me....

Last time the WDC and WCC went to the same team where:
1. 2nd driver failed to win a race
2. Consistently finished out of podium places when car 1 won the race.
3. Had only TWO DNF all season, meaning he had a reliable car.
4. Finished 5th in drivers standing while winning the WCC.

He's had some bad luck and had a win stolen from him. But I can't recall a more mediocre performance from a driver whose team won the WCC and consistently had a car capable of winning virtually every race.

He finished behind Verstappen for 5th. He should be kicking himself.

What sucks is virtually anyone from the midfield would have done a better job.

Click to shrink...

I mean he had disappointing second half but sometimes I wonder if people actually look behind the results and not just the point gap. Without shit ton of bad luck Bottas would had had pretty much the same points as Hamilton before British GP (so half way trough season) but instead was way off, then had few not so great races and after that was ordered to work for Hamilton because he had lost realistic chances.

 

[softtack]

Gonna miss these two together

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Absolute mad lads those two.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

I mean he had disappointing second half but sometimes I wonder if people actually look behind the results and not just the point gap. Without shit ton of bad luck Bottas would had had pretty much the same points as Hamilton before British GP (so half way trough season) but instead was way off, then had few not so great races and after that was ordered to work for Hamilton because he had lost realistic chances.

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This is a really really generous assessment of his performance this year. He consistently goes backwards during races handing points to rival drivers, if Hamilton hadn't performed to the level he did, Mercedes may well have lost the constructors championship.
I like Bottas, but he was seriously lacking this year.

 

[KillerMan91]

This is a really really generous assessment of his performance this year. He consistently goes backwards during races handing points to rival drivers, if Hamilton hadn't performed to the level he did, Mercedes may well have lost the constructors championship.
I like Bottas, but he was seriously lacking this year.

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I mean he had bad second half but during first half he had pretty much just as much pace as Hamilton. That just didn't convert to points. I would also argue that part of the reason for bad second half was that he was basically ordered to be wingman and that is gotta eat your motivation and will lead it to be harder to push to the limits which you have to do in every race when you race against one of the all time greats. My general point was though that saying he was worst second driver ever is huge hyperbole. Could have done way better during the season but that huge point gap doesn't tell the whole truth. I guess we shall see next year.

 

[Fisico]

Haven't checked all of your criteria, but my guesses are Massa, Raikkonen & Barrichelo. And that's just the last 10 years.

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Well there are pretty strict criteria in what he said and the three drivers are far from checking everything.

Massa in 2007, won 3 races, on the podium 10/17 times and only had 15% less points than his teammate and finished 4th
Raikkonen was never the teammate of a WDC
Barrichelo in 2000 won one race, was 9/17 on the podium had >40% less point than his teammate and finished 4th
Barrichelo in 2001 didn't win a race, was 10/17 on the podium had 55% less point than his teammate and finished 3rd
Barrichelo in 2002 won three races, was 10/17 on the podium, had >45% less point than his teammate and finished 2nd
Barrichelo in 2003 won three races, was 8/16 on the podium, had 30% less points than his teammate and finished 4th

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A few others one

Herbert in 1995 won two races, was 4/17 on the podium, had >55% less point than his teammate and finished 4th
Berger in 1991 won one race, was 6/16 on the podium, had <55% less point than his teammate and finished 4th
Berger in 1990 didn't win a race, was 7/16 on the podium, had >45% less point than his teammate and finished 4th
Lauda in 1985, one win, one podium, 80% less point than his teammate, finished 10th

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Didn't win the WCC but WDC teammate

Kovalainen in 2008, one win, 3 podiums, 45% less point than his teammate, finished 7th
Verstappen in 1994, no win, two podium, 90% less point than his teammate, finished 10th
Rosberg in 1986, no win, one podium, 70% less point than his teammate, finished 6th
Patrese in 1983, one win, two podium, 80% less point than his teammate, finished 9th
Rebaque in 1981, no win, now podium, 80% less point than his teammate, finished 10th

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And that's as far I'm willing to go for data, didn't even know who Rebaque was before checking the 1981 season so that was the sign for me top stop lol

 

[remanutd]

Favorite driver to win the championship next year? Hamilton again?

 

[Brot]

Favorite driver to win the championship next year? Hamilton again?

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Absolutely.

 

[AlsoZ]

Favorite driver to win the championship next year? Hamilton again?

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"Driver who won last year will probably win again this year" has been a bad bet in F1 history overall, but just in the last 20 seasons, the odds were actually bigger than 50%. I wonder what changed.

 

[Norwegian Rudo]

Just want to mention about Rosberg in '86; the car was incredibly mismatched to his talents. He was still a great driver (one of the most underrated in F1 ever) but his style was to go hell for leather from the first lap while the car was built for Prost to protect the tyres and save fuel for a late charge.

 

[bmdubya]

Favorite driver to win the championship next year? Hamilton again?

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Absolutely. Unless he DNFs like half of the races, for sure Hamilton.

 

[DrM]

Force India is history, only Racing Point (Stroll) remains.


I think that Mercedes could strike back next season with another absolute car monster. The first half of 2018 season was a big enough warning.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

Officially locked in but I'm sure would jump is Danny.

He is in a good position for next year. If the Renault is on the right track he stays, if not he can jump to Mercedes.

Other than that? If Russell proves himself he will be in the frame too. In terms of top talent though Mercedes aren't really going to get a lot better considering they can't get Max and I would say that Bottas isn't too much slower than Ocon, Perez, the Hulk and Sainz, the other good drivers on the grid. Kimi obviously would've been quicker than Bottas but he's getting old now.

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Why do people keep thinking Danny Ric would do better against Hamilton than he did against Verstappen?

 

[nekkid]

Absolutely. Unless he DNFs like half of the races, for sure Hamilton.

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Even if Hamilton doesn't reach 7, I still like the idea that he gets 6 and bridges that gap making Schumacher's record not some distant unattainable feat.

 

[Tygre]

I think that Mercedes could strike back next season with another absolute car monster. The first half of 2018 season was a big enough warning.

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2018 should act as a wake-up call if they've been coasting on the coat-tails of the absolute beast they created in 2014, but...

Maybe they've reached the natural end point of development for their current concept, and with nowhere else to go they either get swallowed up by Ferrari and even Red Bull, or have to come up with something new and radical that might not work.

 

[Sei]

Sergio Perez will be driving a Mercedes Unit?, that will be very interesting to see.

 

[Endrix]

Why do people keep thinking Danny Ric would do better against Hamilton than he did against Verstappen?

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It's worse to be a second driver in a non-championship car than it is to be a number 2 driver in the best car on the grid. If max would have broken a leg in 2018 after 5 races Ric would end up getting 3-5th place, if Hamilton did the same Bottas should have won the championship, and I think Ric would have.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

It's worse to be a second driver in a non-championship car than it is to be a number 2 driver in the best car on the grid. If max would have broken a leg in 2018 after 5 races Ric would end up getting 3-5th place, if Hamilton did the same Bottas should have won the championship, and I think Ric would have.

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True, Ric is a shit ton better than Bottas. There's a lot of tenacity in his driving that Bottas will probably never have.

 

[Deleted member 11426]

2018 should act as a wake-up call if they've been coasting on the coat-tails of the absolute beast they created in 2014, but...

Maybe they've reached the natural end point of development for their current concept, and with nowhere else to go they either get swallowed up by Ferrari and even Red Bull, or have to come up with something new and radical that might not work.

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Both Ferrari and Mercedes have made the fastest F1 cars ever and had basically bullet proof reliability in a year that dropped down to 3 PUs allowed. It's amazing and f1 doesn't say enough about the work done with these engines that fans hate.

Mercedes just has a guy named Lewis Hamilton driving their car too.

 

[Deleted member 11426]

Sean Geleal has the best helmet ever created.

 

[chuckddd]

Is that original or extra crispy?

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

2018 should act as a wake-up call if they've been coasting on the coat-tails of the absolute beast they created in 2014, but...

Maybe they've reached the natural end point of development for their current concept, and with nowhere else to go they either get swallowed up by Ferrari and even Red Bull, or have to come up with something new and radical that might not work.

Click to shrink...

Remember, the new front wing rules come into play next year so that could throw a spanner into the works for any of the big 3, however the Mercedes main weakness this year was it's sensitivity to dirty air so it's not a stretch to suggest the rules may favor them. Also, with the end goal being to make the racing closer, well that's Hamilton's natural environment.

 

[BlackFyre]

Haven't checked all of your criteria, but my guesses are Massa, Raikkonen & Barrichelo. And that's just the last 10 years.

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Nope. Fisichella is the closest but even he had a win and 5 dnfs.

I'm thinking Botas performance might be the worst performance by a 2nd driver since maybe Schumacher and Benneton won in 94.

 

[BlackFyre]

Eventually? Absolutely, of course. Verstappen should be a multi-WDC by the end of his career, no doubt.

Next year? No way. He's still too young, too error prone and too mentally fragile. In a three way fight, Hamilton will have him and Leclerc for breakfast.

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Verstappen is far too error prone. He'll throw away his race.

But all they need to do is give him a pole winning car
With no cars in front. Only Hamilton can match his speed. But Hamilton is miles ahead of Max in racecraft.

I don't see Max winning WC for at least 2 years.

Hamilton will tie Schumacher with 2 more.

 

[BlackFyre]

Is that original or extra crispy?

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Are you talking about Niki Lauda? (Oooh bad joke in bad taste)

 

[RaySpencer]

BlackFyre Bottas has two T's. Hehe

 

[Stop It]

Why do people keep thinking Danny Ric would do better against Hamilton than he did against Verstappen?

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As stated by others, he's better than Bottas, not Max.

There's noone else on the grid who will beat Hamilton consistently although in a year or so Max will hopefully be up there and Leclerc and the new set all have potential.

 

[Deleted member 1726]

Season started off with quite a bit of promise it would be a close run championship, but it ended up being boring.

 

[Jaded Photographer]

As stated by others, he's better than Bottas, not Max.

There's noone else on the grid who will beat Hamilton consistently although in a year or so Max will hopefully be up there and Leclerc and the new set all have potential.

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Yeah Danny is better than Bottas. Danny would give Hamilton some trouble here and there, but I doubt he'd beat him for the entire season.

 

[Tygre]

You may have seen Brawn outlining some new graphics packages planned to be included from next season:


Well now you can have your say on what you think about each of them.

I personally really like the look of the Car Performance and Pit Stop Advantage stuff, they both look informative and interesting.

If they bring in the Overtake Probability graphics I will literally stop watching F1.

 

[endlessflood]

It would've been nice to see Danny in that second Merc seat.

 

[Hey Please]

Question about tires for next year:

I know they are going back to soft, mediums and hard but does exactly mean? Is it semantics or are there going to be fundamental changes to the chemical composition for the tires?

And would this mean an end to qualifying lap records (which were made anew this year thanks greatly to the increase in width of the tires as well as them being "softer" than the year before)?

 

[AlsoZ]

Question about tires for next year:

I know they are going back to soft, mediums and hard but does exactly mean? Is it semantics or are there going to be fundamental changes to the chemical composition for the tires?

And would this mean an end to qualifying lap records (which were made anew this year thanks greatly to the increase in width of the tires as well as them being "softer" than the year before)?

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Those are only simplified labels for the TV audience. Each race will still get a mixture of tyres that Pirelli thinks has the right "softness" and longevity for a decent race weekend. (And they will be wrong, many times)
The Soft in Suzuka is going to be way harder than the Soft in Monaco, for obvious reasons. There WILL be chemical and mechanical changes of course, because Pirelli doesn't want blistering, useless tyre sets etc. like this year.

The funny part is, tyre issues were a major reason why races sometimes got unpredictable and exciting.

 

[Deleted member 11426]

Pirelli is still going to have the wide range of compounds, they're just going call what they bring to each track soft, medium, and hard.

The cars are going to be slower regardless because of the front wing change.

 

[Hey Please]

Those are only simplified labels for the TV audience. Each race will still get a mixture of tyres that Pirelli thinks has the right "softness" and longevity for a decent race weekend. (And they will be wrong, many times)
The Soft in Suzuka is going to be way harder than the Soft in Monaco, for obvious reasons. There WILL be chemical and mechanical changes of course, because Pirelli doesn't want blistering, useless tyre sets etc. like this year.

The funny part is, tyre issues were a major reason why races sometimes got unpredictable and exciting.

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Ah, so in essence, if a race is predicted to feature this year's hyper, ultra and super, they'll simply be painted Red, Yellow and White respectively to hearken back to 2017's scheme.