im not even refrencing the movies, im referencing midnight suns. its full of them throwing out one liners, and unless I missed it, barly got mentioned.
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Forspoken Review thread - Yeah, okay, this is something I do now
- Thread starter Dust
- Start date
So overall do you think this game is being unfairly dog piled? Obviously I haven't played the full game, assuming you haven't either, but the reviews I've read all point to the game just being ok or not very good in some respects.
Yeah I think reviewers vs randos needs to be separated. Online is the unwashed masses, you're going to get outright racist hate, you're also going to get people with subtler prejudices that show their worst side when given small clips with minimal context, vs. the heavy exposure of playing the game possibly breaking through a little, and then you're going to get people just going along with the tide those others established. Also that the dialogue is one small part of the whole game and gameplay is something only reviewers can really comment on at the moment. There can totally be a lopsided online reaction even while the review scores are tracking pretty even with Strange of Paradise and High on Life.
For the record I don't recall a single professional review praising SoP's dialogue even ironically. What I heard made it sound like the memed funny absurd moments seem were the rare gem in a pile of drab garbage that did not get a pass from them at all.
For the record I don't recall a single professional review praising SoP's dialogue even ironically. What I heard made it sound like the memed funny absurd moments seem were the rare gem in a pile of drab garbage that did not get a pass from them at all.
I don't think it's a "card", I do think it's an unfortunate reality in society including the gaming sphere where the "default" main character is typically a white man. And nobody is saying people have to like the game, they are just saying the criticism of the game (particularly the dialogue) is more harsh and focused than it would be if it were a white man delivering the dialogue. There is plenty to criticize with the game, and for sure there are people who just don't like the writing because they just don't like it, but you add that on top of people that really focus in on it like it's just unthinkably bad and it becomes a whirlwind. I say this as a person who thinks the game looks like an Ubisoft style open world game with more style than substance that I wouldn't download if the game was free, it just doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not gonna make it out like the writing is an affront or anything.
There are people that do yes. It is in general because of the Patriarchal Society people have grown up in. It is a valid concern to point out even if it doesn't apply to everyone. And it is unconscious, people don't think about it while making criticizing something in general. It is learnt behavior we have to actively unlearn. The reaction to this while I believe the dialogue is bad, is more aggressive then it would be for something like a DMC donte. And people are more likely because of that learnt behavior to defend something like DMC donte over Forspanken. I have seen this in many discussions on the internet over the years personally. Of course I don't think most people are being malicious. It is just something that we have to examine about ourselves as people and be better about.
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I agree with you 100% and that's a really good example that's not "but the MCU" and the real extreme "if they said this in God of War or Last of Us no one would care!!"
I can't argue with you on that one. The dialogue in that game is super fucking corny.
I mean this is coming from a team that created FFXV, which is not exactly a game held as the standard of high-level character writing.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns of Racism
I'd hope people, and the reviewers, are actively thinking about that and talking about the game without prejudice of who the main character is. I haven't read or watched any today that made me think they were biased and scoring the game lower because of it.
This game's release has been wild. People have been threatening to quit Era over it. It's like TLoU 2...part deux.
It doesn't need to be near it to be reminiscent of it. It's not even out yet, lol.
They are referring to people outside critics when they say the game is getting dogpiled too harshly. It doesn't absolve it from criticism, but when any personality can put up a 10 second clip with the prompt "can you believe the cringe dialogue in this game", and it's just a harmless quip, it does feel a bit try hard. There are conversations about this game going on outside the reviews you watched. You're literally one.
That said, critics can also be guilty of these biases and tell on themselves in their writing with how they talk about black characters. This doesn't necessarily equate a lower score, but where do you think phrases like "exaggerated swagger of a black teen" come from.
mm, I think the point that quips coming from a black women would be read less favorably than the same lines coming from a white dude makes sense based on societal expectations for black women, and that could have something to do with the general sentiments around this game. but I also think all of the dialogue I've seen is pretty awful, lol.
on a related note, this tweet thread about the lack of black writers on the game, and the way those writers chose to portray Frey is worth considering, too
View: https://twitter.com/PikaChulita/status/1617616080616456193
I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my deal: you generally won't find me in a Marvel thread discussing the dialogue because I think those movies are Product™ slurry, empty and disposable by design—substantially more so than most mass market media. I don't watch them because I don't like them, and I think the assembly line nature of their production is apparent in most facets.
On the other hand, if FFXVI and Forspoken were announced at the same time, and Forspoken's trailer was something to this effect:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ph8D4MkGiI
It might've been the more exciting of the two (for me, at least).
That's why it was jarring and frustrating to see Frey get on some extremely halfhearted "well that just happened" bullshit as we got closer to release and the game shed the Athia name. It's why I care enough to give it a second thought, and why I would still like to see a Forspoken 2, despite dragging it on more than one occasion.
On the other hand, if FFXVI and Forspoken were announced at the same time, and Forspoken's trailer was something to this effect:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ph8D4MkGiI
It might've been the more exciting of the two (for me, at least).
That's why it was jarring and frustrating to see Frey get on some extremely halfhearted "well that just happened" bullshit as we got closer to release and the game shed the Athia name. It's why I care enough to give it a second thought, and why I would still like to see a Forspoken 2, despite dragging it on more than one occasion.
I haven't read any of the reviews and just watched someone stream the first 30 minutes of this game which is mostly cutscenes and it looks genuinely bad. Like PS2-era video game storytelling compared to modern narrative-driven games.
Edit: I watched some of the clips on Twitter and those don't seem as bad to me. They were going for a young edgy personality and the dialogue from the clips fits that. But for real the game starts out badly and gives a bad first impression with the New York part.
Edit: I watched some of the clips on Twitter and those don't seem as bad to me. They were going for a young edgy personality and the dialogue from the clips fits that. But for real the game starts out badly and gives a bad first impression with the New York part.
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Completely agree with this tweet. Like I said earlier, I don't doubt there are some circles and people who are against a black woman protagonist, but when it comes to the dialogue and characterization, it was a room full of white writers and majority non-black artists defining how they thought a black protagonist should look, act, talk, feel, etc. It's all disingenuous.
Fire Emblem Engage is a good comparison. It's also a middling game but the end result is vastly different numerically.
Engages story is bland and stereotypical of the series.
The Somniel home base is more like an annoying chore with little reward.
The support conversations are some of the worst I've seen.
The writing in general is also just kind of bad.
The combat is fun though. The weapon triangle is back , the break system on top of it and Emblems are fun. It's not groundbreaking for SRPGs but it's fun.
The same could be said about Forspoken.
People don't like some of the dialogue that seems very hit and miss, or the overall world design.
But the all magic and high movement based combat is fun, and something like this is new. It doesn't revolutionize ARPGs but it's still fun.
But the end result for both of these games with narrative flaws but have good gameplay are worlds apart.
Engages story is bland and stereotypical of the series.
The Somniel home base is more like an annoying chore with little reward.
The support conversations are some of the worst I've seen.
The writing in general is also just kind of bad.
The combat is fun though. The weapon triangle is back , the break system on top of it and Emblems are fun. It's not groundbreaking for SRPGs but it's fun.
The same could be said about Forspoken.
People don't like some of the dialogue that seems very hit and miss, or the overall world design.
But the all magic and high movement based combat is fun, and something like this is new. It doesn't revolutionize ARPGs but it's still fun.
But the end result for both of these games with narrative flaws but have good gameplay are worlds apart.
Lol I must be weird because the dialog and story content I've seen in clips looked fun to me and also different. Not a lot of huge RPG games with this sort of humor. Like it looks fresh to me. I'll pick up the game eventually.
Every dialogue clip I see of this game I like it more and more. Was gonna wait till the weekend but have to buy this shit tonight after all.
I mean, based on the demo, there are also a good amount of people who don't like the combat here, so it's not surprising that a game that has divisive combat would score lower imo.
Engage's combat is pretty unanimously praised though.
This is cute. Again, I don't know if Frey was ever really the issue for me. She has some weak lines at times, but w/e. The cuff, or maybe her relationship with the cuff, really rubbed me the wrong way though.
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I've gotta be honest
and forgive me, lol
but I thought basically the exact same thing she did in that clip when I first started playing Child of Light. And I liked the game!
You're seriously not comparing the latest entry in the KING of its genre to a game that has gotten mixed opinions on its feel and gameplay from the jump right?
So I ended up finishing the game early this morning and put together a review.
"Overall, there is very little in Forspoken worth mentioning. Seemingly a product without any clear direction and with any and every idea allowed to be added, Forspoken is a muddled, boring, toneless mess. Even with a bit longer spent on development, I'm not sure this one could be saved. There's so much wrong with it that development would need to be restarted from the ground up before anything worth salvaging appeared."
https://powerup-gaming.com/2023/01/24/forspoken-review-ps5-final-blandtasy/ - 4.5/10
"Overall, there is very little in Forspoken worth mentioning. Seemingly a product without any clear direction and with any and every idea allowed to be added, Forspoken is a muddled, boring, toneless mess. Even with a bit longer spent on development, I'm not sure this one could be saved. There's so much wrong with it that development would need to be restarted from the ground up before anything worth salvaging appeared."
https://powerup-gaming.com/2023/01/24/forspoken-review-ps5-final-blandtasy/ - 4.5/10
Engages story and writing are bad and it's combat while fun is nothing revolutionary.
Your very response is a prime example of "is better just because" bonus points applied to another game that honestly should also be a 7.
EDIT: sorry for the late reply, thought I had hit send earlier in the day with the post below:
For what it's worth as a dumbass SoP enjoyer, absolutely the game is genuine and sincere, with the memery being a "death of the author " situation that occurred from second zero when the first trailer was revealed for it (which itself is really funny)
Some of the more moving moments with Jack are either where he is catching himself being an ass or applying that lesson and letting someone else say their peace. That wouldn't be anywhere in the script (in my view) if it wasn't sincere from a writing standpoint, especially coupled with some of the Nojima interviews, it's definitely sincere.
As for Forspoken, I'm still hyped to play it, IRL imploded so probably won't have as much time tonight but I'm excited to jump into it (the cringe framing of the opening hours not withstanding, which while I didn't see it for myself I did read the impressions thread regarding that subject and that's the only part of the game that has me going oof/yikes), aside from how they assembled the writer's room and opted not to change it once they found their lead in Ella. I'm pretty sure by the time the game is done I'm going to want to see more Frey down the line and I hope we get that chance.
EDIT2: And yes SoP still gets hate, I saw people hating on the Gilgamesh DLC trailer when it dropped calling it dumb and stupid, heck people complained about the music (which is insane to me but w/e). I don't say this to minmize what I see as an outsized disdain for Forspoken though (because in my view it very much feels like Forspoken is under a microscope), but rather because despite my dumbass enthusiasm for SoP it absolutely didn't sell well because if it had SE would have crowed about it. Even FF fans absolutely hate it.
LOL
For what it's worth as a dumbass SoP enjoyer, absolutely the game is genuine and sincere, with the memery being a "death of the author " situation that occurred from second zero when the first trailer was revealed for it (which itself is really funny)
Some of the more moving moments with Jack are either where he is catching himself being an ass or applying that lesson and letting someone else say their peace. That wouldn't be anywhere in the script (in my view) if it wasn't sincere from a writing standpoint, especially coupled with some of the Nojima interviews, it's definitely sincere.
As for Forspoken, I'm still hyped to play it, IRL imploded so probably won't have as much time tonight but I'm excited to jump into it (the cringe framing of the opening hours not withstanding, which while I didn't see it for myself I did read the impressions thread regarding that subject and that's the only part of the game that has me going oof/yikes), aside from how they assembled the writer's room and opted not to change it once they found their lead in Ella. I'm pretty sure by the time the game is done I'm going to want to see more Frey down the line and I hope we get that chance.
EDIT2: And yes SoP still gets hate, I saw people hating on the Gilgamesh DLC trailer when it dropped calling it dumb and stupid, heck people complained about the music (which is insane to me but w/e). I don't say this to minmize what I see as an outsized disdain for Forspoken though (because in my view it very much feels like Forspoken is under a microscope), but rather because despite my dumbass enthusiasm for SoP it absolutely didn't sell well because if it had SE would have crowed about it. Even FF fans absolutely hate it.
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I agree with your point and it's not easy to be self aware when you start using prejudiced impulses to judge something. In case of Forespoken I think the criticism for the writing has been valid though. There is definitely a lot worse out there.
Since I did it for Sonic Frontiers, I figured I would do it for Forspoken as well. It was done fairly quickly with me rounding out reviews to the closest 0 or 5 instead of doing it properly like I did with Frontiers, but it's good enough imo. Here's the Forspoken Review Distribution (taken from MC).
A couple of interesting stats:
Some fun facts:
A couple of interesting stats:
- The most common score was 70.
- The average is 69.
- The median is 70 (half the scores are 70 or above).
Some fun facts:
- The most common score was 80.
- The median is 78 (meaning half the scores are 78 or above).
- The average is 73.
- 80% of scores are 70 or above.
I think the comedic timing could have been a bit better like a slightly longer pause, but yeah that line wasn't bad at all.
I dislike the dialogue and not because the protagonist is a black female it's just that it felt out of place in the type of game I was expecting Forsaken to be. I've only played the demo and beyond the reveal trailer have watched nothing else about that game so it came as a shock when Frey started dropping F bombs, not what I was expecting in a fantasy RPG game and of course the demo provided no real context to Frey's character. I would have disliked it equally if not more if the protagonist was a white male, I disliked that kind of language in GOW.
Really thoughtful take on the dialogue from Austin Walker: https://www.clockworkworlds.com/post-cringe/?ref=clockwork-worlds-newsletter
I don't think this one is for me.
I don't think this one is for me.
Seriously? This is the type of dialogue people are losing thier shit over? Jesus. Christ. And yeah, I agree. The pile on isn't just about writing quality, it's something else. and after watching Willow (a show that also got piled on fir its writing.), I'm seeing some similarities...
Yeah seeing the distribution says a lot more than just aggregate scores. Seems to me the game is pretty decent but lacking some execution leading to lower scores. And pretty much it's an average game.Since I did it for Sonic Frontiers, I figured I would do it for Forspoken as well. It was done fairly quickly with me rounding out reviews to the closest 0 or 5 instead of doing it properly like I did with Frontiers, but it's good enough imo. Here's the Forspoken Review Distribution (taken from MC).
A couple of interesting stats:
Here's Sonic Frontiers for comparison that I did a while back(after one day of reviews):
- The most common score was 70.
- The average is 69.
- The median is 70 (half the scores are 70 or above).
Some fun facts:
It's really interesting to look at reviews this way instead of a simple aggregate. It gives you a better range of opinions.
- The most common score was 80.
- The median is 78 (meaning half the scores are 78 or above).
- The average is 73.
- 80% of scores are 70 or above.
I don't understand people comparing this game with something that is like, completely unrelated, such as Fire Emblem Engage.
Different game, different team, different circumstances, different history, *ENTIRELY* different genre altogether, etc etc. Like, what? Why would you make a comparison to another thing that is so vastly different in all aspects? Seems like a *massive* reach.
Different game, different team, different circumstances, different history, *ENTIRELY* different genre altogether, etc etc. Like, what? Why would you make a comparison to another thing that is so vastly different in all aspects? Seems like a *massive* reach.
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The hate this game is getting is really dumb, there's cringy dialogue yes but it's really not as horrible as most say it is , at the end of the day , Forspoken is just a mediocre game, nothing more, nothing less. It really doesn't deserve the super hate since it's not really horrible.
this is a great way of looking at reviews. thanksSince I did it for Sonic Frontiers, I figured I would do it for Forspoken as well. It was done fairly quickly with me rounding out reviews to the closest 0 or 5 instead of doing it properly like I did with Frontiers, but it's good enough imo. Here's the Forspoken Review Distribution (taken from MC).
A couple of interesting stats:
Here's Sonic Frontiers for comparison that I did a while back(after one day of reviews):
- The most common score was 70.
- The average is 69.
- The median is 70 (half the scores are 70 or above).
Some fun facts:
It's really interesting to look at reviews this way instead of a simple aggregate. It gives you a better range of opinions.
- The most common score was 80.
- The median is 78 (meaning half the scores are 78 or above).
- The average is 73.
- 80% of scores are 70 or above.
something I've seen reviews touch on was the lack of variety in the environment design. 4 areas that are the same aside from the color grading is a mess. sounds like FF15 part 2. like they didn't have time to make proper themes and just cobbled together the assets they had. a snow area, desert, and tropical area in addition to what we got would have gone a long way in making the world more memorable
ha, great piece. was not expecting something from austin walker of all people about this game
That's a great write up. It perfectly explains my issues with this type of writing as well. Not to say it's unique to this game at all. I also don't like Marvel movies, or other stuff in the same vein.
Great piece. Puts into words how I feel better than I ever could.
Again, a solid amount of people don't like the combat in Forspoken (at least as far as what we've played of the demo), that's a pretty huge difference from engage right there.
I think this is ignoring the fact that we've created a standardization of hyper-criticism of things across ALL media and that's how people are increasingly interacting with their entertainment. The long-form hour long YouTube videos that have gotten so popular are built on these incredibly intricate criticisms and they show up for just about everything popular these days. People have made an entire hobby, or hell even careers, out of hyper-analyzing things and speaking in increasing degrees of hyperbole. Chuds do this too in order to "oppose the woke" or whatever the fuck their dumb grievances with a diverse character is, but this also exists well outside of the implicit biases that people are bringing up here as a problem. Yes, those unreasonable expectations for people of color are more often a thing than not too and get thrown on lots of things.
BUT, when people are just sort of talking about this game outside of the obvious chuds being obvious chuds, I don't know how you begin to meaningfully separate an implicit negative racial bias criticism from a criticism that is developed from hyper analyses as a new standard and expected way to engage with media and entertainment. And while it's reasonable to bring that implicit bias up as a source of some criticism, I think some people dive to that particular gut response when these criticisms come up in a way that isn't helpful either. Not to mention this is also a situation where yes, the main character is a Black woman, but written by white people in ways that are more problematic and are going to inspire more intense criticisms as well.
Again, it's fair to bring up implicit biases as a discussion point, but I don't it achieves much for people to assume everyone on ERA or in most corners of criticism that are clearly not the right wing, misogynistic, and racist corners that most people know are doing so from that perspective and not from the other implicit reality of how to engage with media in the modern era.
I was just about to post this too. Great thoughts and kind of expands on why the dialogue feels so bad in a lot of clips (even if one of them is kind of funny).
If only everyone was as thorough. like I disagree With his opinion, but I'm happy he explained why!
This isn't bad TBH. Yeah, some of it is cheesy, but overall it's not as terrible as I thought.
Comparing this game to, of all things, Fire Emblem Engage, is such a weird thing to do anyways.
I think it's very important you reread the post quoted below again. Secondly, remove the critics out of the discussion, a lot of the points answering you were never talking about them specifically.
Just because people aren't spouting racial slurs, doesn't mean they aren't exhibiting racism in more subtle, unconscious ways, ie; unconscious biases. Embedded within our social structures that allow racism to perforate even without people being aware of it.
This thread on this very site is a perfect example of it:
What emotion do you think this character is expressing?
It’s such an oddly blank and soulless stare. The eyes almost seem furrowed enough to express something, but the lower half of the face is just doing nothing. I don’t understand how a company could release key art like this and think that it’s good enough. It’s like they just took the in game...
www.resetera.com
The sheer volume of games with male/white protagonists that come out with even blanker or more vacant expressions on their promotional material on a AAA scale are endless. But why is it that this poster takes issue with this particular game? It isn't rocket science as to what makes Frey different from most protagonists.
Similarly, how many games are released with similarly bad/middling dialogue, yet the amount of outrage from gamers and online discourse against this game has been extremely out of proportion.
Yes the game can actually be middling and disappointing, but these kinds of games come out all of the time without a fraction of the vitriol. Yet the first female black protagonist's AAA game comes out and there are Captain Marvel/She Hulk/Rey levels of outrage against this game, even on this very forum.