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Turbo Tu-Tone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,951
I have a goddamn video citing the origin of the Shoot and y'all sitting here stuck in your own perspective.....

Both those dances are fairly fucking unique and you can find youtube videos of them doing them BEFORE they even blew up.


But y'all don't wanna believe me because you're fucking right. You always are.
They're not stuck. They're intentionally trying to muddy the waters so these companies don't have to acknowledge/pay these black artists. Best thing they can do from here on out? Copyright their shit. If these developers want to make money off something they had nothing do with, take em to court. Simple as that.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,987
Not particularly but I'm not much of a dancer. Even so I might understand the country of origin (as with foods) but I've never heard of someone mad at an American cooking perogies or a Canadian performing a salsa dance.

This isn't about being mad at individuals, it's about a giant corporation profiting off of artists' work without paying them for it.

So I understand the origin of these but never interpreted them as "belonging" to these countries/cultures

This is self-contradictory on a dizzying level. How in the world does hula not belong to Hawaiians?
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,107
9ne1ph7lplq11.jpg
Good shit. Hopefully these other guys that have popular dances do the same & even start suing.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
And the same is true of Fortnite's dances. You can find out the origins of them if you look hard enough. Fortnite is doing nothing to aid that connection though, in fact they've severed the connection entirely. That's what people don't like.

From what I'm seen, it's the opposite. A lot of people are going to YouTube and seeing the origins of these dances for the first time. Something that wouldn't have happened without Fortnite.

It isn't severing the connection just because people think 'Fortnite' since that has always happened in pop culture, like MJ and Moonwalk as people mentioned. Popularity is recognized despite the origins.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
the handwaving of the issue is hilarious because it comes from the exact people who could care about poc being erased from history. People go around thinking the shoot is this crazy dance from a video game and it has become associated with little white kids even though it very much comes from the hood. We must do better and ensure that Blocboy JB and the likes get their rightful credit.
Little white kids??? Fortnite is popular worldwide! If you think only or mostly "little white kids" play this game I think you're the one living under a bubble. Era's gonna Era to oblivion on this topic, Jesus.
 

Wispmetas

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,546
Why does the OP have to care about cultures that aren't their own?
Lol what a response.
Just saying, he should care for other cultures as much as he expects Epic games to care for his own, it's mutual respect, and that's why I can agree with him here, not being black and not being american (wich I suspect he might be).
But here we're talking about a company of course, not an individual, so we can expect that they're always thinking money first.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,987
Did Michael give credit to the creator of the moonwalk? Serious question. Was it called the moonwalk before he did it?

No creator is really known. Cab Calloway did it in the '30s and says it was called "The Buzz." Celebrities as white as Dick Van Dyke and Lucille Ball did it at various times before Michael made it a sensation. It's not really a complex move, Jackson just perfected the presentation, you could say.
 

Zephyx

Member
Oct 28, 2017
203
No one is saying you have to copyright or pay for old ass dances that have been around for generations, but if an artist like BlocBoy comes up with a dance, he should at least be credited for it if another piece of media is gonna co-opt it as it's own. The fact that Epic took this dance, which was already big before it hit Fortnite, and made it it's own is incredibly fucked up and I can see why you can call it cultural erasure.

The moment someone says "credited" is where things get muddy though. There is no copyright involved with choreography so no artist can technically own a dance move. You cannot also mention the name of the artist in your media/product liberally since there may also be a lot of royalty issues tied with that.

I personally have no issue with Fortnite "copying" and adding these dance moves in their games because I don't consider them intellectual property. It's a slippery slope once we consider body movement as someone's property. I also don't consider them cultural erasure since the dance is still existing regardless of Fortnite and as you've mentioned, it was already popular before it was used.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
But it isn't really erased since you can find out information about the Christmas tree's origins. Erased implies that you can find anything or you have to move mountains to find information. Christmas tree's origins can be found by Google.
I was specifically talking about your example in the US here, where that did happen. Italian and Irish culture is alive and well, German is not. Maybe erasure is too strong of a word, but you see the difference, right?

I'm German and I didn't know that the Christmas tree comes from Germany. And it doesn't really matter either. If you wanna know - you can google it - like I just did. Otherwise, you can enjoy the Christmas tradition just the same.
The example doesn't really matter. You don't care about this one, but someone else might, that's not the point.
 

Galactor

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
619
Dance is culture, obviously. It reflects something about people who created and practice it.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
You do know that Christians literally, not figuratively, LITERALLY re-contextualized the christmas tree as such in order to erase whatever the original celebration was with the deliberate goal of destroying the previous cultural significance and pasting Christianity over it, right?

Like, that's a textbook example of cultural erasure right there, can't come with a more apt example of literal, deliberate cultural erasure than the fact that it is called a goddamned Christmas tree.

Except you can research that information. If it was 'erased' you shouldn't know that information or it should be hard to find. The proper word would be displaced.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
No creator is really known. Cab Calloway did it in the '30s and says it was called "The Buzz." Celebrities as white as Dick Van Dyke and Lucille Ball did it at various times before Michael made it a sensation. It's not really a complex move, Jackson just perfected the presentation, you could say.
This is the main problem. You'll never really know where they came from. Who really started it. Who should Epic believe created the dances? The original creators would probably get more robbed then the famous artists that actually popularized them. They could of came from a damn homeless person for all we know.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
From what I'm seen, it's the opposite. A lot of people are going to YouTube and seeing the origins of these dances for the first time. Something that wouldn't have happened without Fortnite.

It isn't severing the connection just because people think 'Fortnite' since that has always happened in pop culture, like MJ and Moonwalk as people mentioned. Popularity is recognized despite the origins.
Yes, I don't disagree that what you are saying is happening, but what I'm saying is that Fortnite is not doing anything directly to acknowledge where the dances come from or where they were first popularized. If you want to find the connection you have to search yourself from other sources.
Lol what a response.
Just saying, he should care for other cultures as much as he expects Epic games to care for his own, it's mutual respect, and that's why I can agree with him here, not being black and not being american (wich I suspect he might be).
But here we're talking about a company of course, not an individual, so we can expect that they're always thinking money first.
The OP may not feel that they can speak for other cultures. Some cultures are fine with and encourage other cultures to appropriate aspects of their culture, especially if it's done respectfully and acknowledges the origins in some way. Some cultures are incredibly insular and don't want any appropriation at all. Individuals from a single culture may feel differently on this subject (you can see this in this very thread).
 

Esfolia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
503
Vancouver
The moment someone says "credited" is where things get muddy though. There is no copyright involved with choreography so no artist can technically own a dance move. You cannot also mention the name of the artist in your media/product liberally since there may also be a lot of royalty issues tied with that.

I personally have no issue with Fortnite "copying" and adding these dance moves in their games because I don't consider them intellectual property. It's a slippery slope once we consider body movement as someone's property. I also don't consider them cultural erasure since the dance is still existing regardless of Fortnite and as you've mentioned, it was already popular before it was used.
This is shown to be false in the first couple of pages of this thread.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
I was specifically talking about your example in the US here, where that did happen. Italian and Irish culture is alive and well, German is not. Maybe erasure is too strong of a word, but you see the difference, right?
I'm not sure how you measure that. What part of German culture is "dead" in the US?
The example doesn't really matter. You don't care about this one, but someone else might, that's not the point.
But it shows that the origin is still easily available - if you wanna know - and that it doesn't matter who popularized it, the origin is still there.
 

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,370
If I, a white dude, am frustrated ITT by the dismissal of the points raised by the OP, I can't even imagine how pissed OP must be.
Forgive my ignorance but I would have never associated any dance with a specific culture.

I'm certainly not arguing with you but I imagine many others are in a similar situation where its just something we never even thought of.

I am curious though how do we define a dance as belonging to a specific culture and what belongs to popular culture?

It seems like it would be tough to know unless you are somewhat familiar with those cultures to begin with
Even if you start your post with "forgive my ignorance"... holy shit, I want to hope you're joking or trolling.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
I was specifically talking about your example in the US here, where that did happen. Italian and Irish culture is alive and well, German is not. Maybe erasure is too strong of a word, but you see the difference, right?


The example doesn't really matter. You don't care about this one, but someone else might, that's not the point.

That's more of a bastardizing on our part. But I wouldn't call it 'erased'.
 

Griselbrand

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,242
I've met more than enough people that think eating Taco Bell means tasting some of our authentic Mexican cuisine so I can tell you that it is not difficult to "erase" the origins of food to some people.

I think we agree then, that cultural erasure can be a thing then. Especially nowadays with the speed that information travels, every new novelty can be snatched up before it has a chance to even breathe.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,426
Dance is culture, obviously. It reflects something about people who created and practice it.

This is the obvious point that loads of folks here seem to be missing. As for giving credit to works that may already be derivative, allow me to introduce you to most writing, art, music, and other creations. It's about re-use with transformation. What you need to do, as a creator, is give credit to where you got the ideas that you're transforming.

So sure, Epic can claim that they've transformed a lot of the dances used in Fortnite. They animate them, put them in a video game context, all of that is transformative. But it's disingenuous in the extreme to say that they were not, at a minimum, inspired by previous artists. Many of whom are people of color. At a minimum, Epic needs to credit those from whom they've derived their moves.

It's definitely the academic in me, but we'd have less fuckery all around if people were honest and upfront about their fucking sources.
 

Cordy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,348
Cut BlocBoy a check bruh.

And hey, Jay got sued by DDP for doing the Diamond Cutter/Roc symbol and DDP won that case lol.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
If I, a white dude, am frustrated ITT by the dismissal of the points raised by the OP, I can't even imagine how pissed OP must be.

Even if you start your post with "forgive my ignorance"... holy shit, I want to hope you're joking or trolling.

You don't have to be black or whit to disagree.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
Metal Gear Solid? Binary Domain? Silent Hill? Resident Evil?

I don't understand where you are going with this, tbh.
Zelda. Mario. Xenoblade chronicles 2. I mean the list kind of doesn't end.
Definitely a serious question and thanks to everyone who listed recent games starring white men. Thats my point. The industry is white. Even japanese people are making games with white men. When was the last black protaganist game they made? I'll wait again.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
They should give credit imo but nothing more then that, I mean dance movies shouldn't be something that should be denied people to use because of copyrights or something like that, especially because the origins of so many well known ones aren't known exactly where they came from in the first place. You might know the "popular" use of a dance move, but that person could have easily got it from someone else who they saw do it that wasn't nearly as famous or popular and just taken it from them.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Definitely a serious question and thanks to everyone who listed recent games starring white men. Thats my point. The industry is white. Even japanese people are making games with white men. When was the last black protaganist game they made? I'll wait again.

So gamers should just be assumed as white even when 1/3 of the market is from Asia?
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,547
United Kingdom
Definitely a serious question and thanks to everyone who listed recent games starring white men. Thats my point. The industry is white. Even japanese people are making games with white men. When was the last black protaganist game they made? I'll wait again.
Gonna be hard to tell when you're being serious if you end your questions the same regardless.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I think we agree then, that cultural erasure can be a thing then. Especially nowadays with the speed that information travels, every new novelty can be snatched up before it has a chance to even breathe.
This is about Fortnite dances somehow being black culture erasure and to that I (and many here) say no, it's not. And I've explained why.

And my Taco Bell example was to show how that is NOT cultural erasure even though I hate what it's done to an oblivious worldwide audience of food eaters who think that that's authentic Mexican food. It still has every right to exists.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Definitely a serious question and thanks to everyone who listed recent games starring white men. Thats my point. The industry is white. Even japanese people are making games with white men. When was the last black protaganist game they made? I'll wait again.
They also make a ton of games starring Japanese people. If your point was that the game industry lacks representation for black folks then you could've just said that. What you said was that the entirety of industry is white, which is inaccurate.
 

see5harp

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,435
How is Taco Bell being popular remotely important? I thought educated people and minorities in this country already figured out these questions about food authenticity. Authenticity as most people define it doesn't exist in this country. Move on.
 

Deadlast

Member
Oct 27, 2017
572
I guess this goes for WoW as well. People who were playing WoW were imitating the dancing in the game. This will happen over and over again. I'm glad that the thing kids are copying from fortnite is the dancing.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,496
I get wanting dances credited to who popularized it, but it is utterly baffling to see people insist that dance steps are "owned" and therefore must be compensated. The last thing we need is more private ownership of public culture. It's bad enough that Disney has basically made it so no copyright will ever enter the public domain again. We don't need to take things already in the public domain and throw them into the hands of private owners (and eventually the estates of those owners and into corporations).
 
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