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  1. vodalus

    vodalus
    Member

    I completely agree with you OP - it really does seem a particularly disturbed form of appropriation because somehow the theft is more reductive in this context.

    However I do have to disagree with one point: most acknowledge that there is very little American culture without African-American culture.
     
  2. Benita

    Benita
    Banned Member

    I've pretty clearly laid out why I dont think this is as serious an issue as you do, and why it's a touch hypocritical to be mad at epic whilst ignoring blocboy for doing something similar.

    You can disagree, but you cant claim I'm not saying anything.
     
  3. PrintedCrayon

    PrintedCrayon
    Member

    When OP can't refute perfectly well-made points: the post.
     
  4. AztecComplex

    AztecComplex
    Banned Member

    This thread sounds more like OP wanting to find a larger controversy than there really is.
     
  5. DigitalOp

    DigitalOp
    Member OP

    If you don't think its serious, I don't see why you're battling me over this. Move on? What you need? Validation?

    Ive explained this shit 7 different times. I aint repeating myself. Go back and read the answers to these goddamn repeating questions.
     
  6. chromatic9

    chromatic9
    Member

    MJ didn't create it though. He popularized a move done many decades before.

     
  7. PrintedCrayon

    PrintedCrayon
    Member

    My bigger problem is that op just wants to shut down any rational discourse over this issue.

    Most posters seem to agree that a small credit to the artists would be fine. Trying to turn this into some race issue is just counterproductive at best.
     
  8. GoaThief

    GoaThief
    Member

    Unfortunately, pretty much. I find it very disappointing and disheartening that this thread has seemingly not been created in good faith.
     
  9. Benita

    Benita
    Banned Member

    Why do you feel the need to frame a discussion as a "battle"?

    You decided to put your thoughts here in writing so why are you escalating shit sky high because people disagree with you?

    Go write a blog and turn the comments off if you aren't interested in having a chat.
     
  10. Crumpo

    Crumpo
    Member

    I'm English. And white. So why don't you help provide that context, since you obviously have it and I don't, to the discussion instead of posting stupid responses like this? I thought you wanted an actual discussion but your responses read like you aren't interested.
     
  11. Epilexia

    Epilexia
    Member

    This is how the capitalism works.

    And there are far worse uses of this cultural appropriation.

    Like when politicians use oppressed minorities only to take a photo while they are in a campaign.

    Or when magnates and millionaires try to pretend that they are defending the working class.

    Great thread, OP.

    This remembers me to one of my greatest musical idols, Ornette Coleman.

    He understood that jazz wasn't only a style of music, but also a cultural movement to fight against the white dominance in the US mass media.

    So when all the white musical critics embraced and praised jazz music, generally with easy-to-listen takes in the genre marketed for a "sophisticated" white class, he tried really hard to make as much noise as possible in a scenario, to horrify to this white elitist musical critic.

    There is a great reading that I can recommend about this subject, 'New Thing', created by the Italian anarchist movement Wu Ming, in which all of the writers sign their work under the name of an anonymous collective.

    The book is distributed through a Creative Commons license, but sadly, it's currently only available in Italian, Spanish and French. It will be great if it's translated to English in the future. It's one of the greatest love letters to the black culture and jazz music as a cultural movement to fight against the establishment, denouncing a lot of the crimes and atrocities of the CIA against the Black Phanter movement. Like poisoning the milk distributed by the movement in schools.
     
  12. CloudCircus

    CloudCircus
    Member

    This shit is disgusting and battle royale is a blight on gaming. My nephews are obsessed with the stupid Fortnite and have no idea about any other games
     
  13. Gravy Boat

    Gravy Boat
    Member

    Why is that a bad thing though? Many people only play 1 game, or at the very least spend the majority of their gaming time on one game.
     
  14. DigitalOp

    DigitalOp
    Member OP

    Yes, it involves black people. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable since you know, those blacks always make it about race and everything.

    "Discussion"

    Was this a discussion? Or was all of this an attempt to say Im wrong and leave it at that.

    "Give people credit"

    BUT BUT THEN THEYLL HAVE TO PAY & LEGAL AND....

    Not much to discuss after that.

    Thats what the thread is for. Im not Sparknotes.
     
  15. KunaiDrilla

    KunaiDrilla
    Member

    I disagree OP and this can be very dangerous if they start getting at people for dance moves. Is already a nightmare for music. Look at that fool Tim Langdell who tried to get at everyone for the word "EDGE" Any game that included that word was getting sued by him. I could imagine the nightmare of someone doing a dance in a battle and they got sued because they included an artist move into their routine. And if they win the prize they got to cut the check? Fuck no. Majority of moves are a variation of a previous one. Imagine if Vampires, Wolves, Zombies and so on were all copyrighted back then? A lot of mediums that people enjoy that include such characters would have not been created.
     
  16. Thunder

    Thunder
    Member

    Is it appropriating a culture .. No its not. I do however think Epic should not rename the dances.
     
  17. degauss

    degauss
    Member

    The entire gaming industry is built on ripping stuff off. Back when fortnite didn't steal anything at launch, not the battle royal mode, not the dances, it had some original ideas of it's own, but it was kinda a flop. FIFA used to suck until they decided to basically reverse engineer Pro Evo Soccer down to it's exact control scheme. Whatever team made Paladins didn't have much impact until they brought in an art team, or at least art director who had no qualms with completely and utterly jacking Overwatchs whole style and UI. It's kinda gross and undignified, but legally, what can you do?

    At the same time though, I think creators of those dances should get some money from Epic, seems 'right'. I don't know if it's legal or whatever, but it seems fair. Then again a lot of the world isn't fair, and revolves around ripping stuff off, be it music, fashion, cellphones, whatever, and we lap it right up, jumping on amazon to save a few dollars by getting the rip-off version of a product. Maybe we should be more principled it what we buy/play/support, or maybe Fortnite could just volunteer to pay these people a token sum of money for some good PR (though I understand why they wouldn't for legal reasons).
     
  18. honest_ry

    honest_ry
    Member

    Dancing to Erasure on a wet runway is the only way to dance

     
  19. Sloth Guevara

    Sloth Guevara
    Member


    Here.


     
  20. Benita

    Benita
    Banned Member

    What are you talking about?

    I didnt say anything about "PAY & LEGAL".

    Or are you simply admitting that you dont think there is a single valid reply here other than "Yeah OP nailed it"?
     
  21. AztecComplex

    AztecComplex
    Banned Member

    Agreed.
     
  22. PrintedCrayon

    PrintedCrayon
    Member

    Jesus, are you honestly going to try and frame me as a racist because you don't want to have a rational discourse with some folks here?

    Fucking poor showing from you OP.

    Nothing here is making me uncomfortable other than your attitude and general dismissiveness toward good posts.

    By all means, give credit where its due, but this isn't a race issue.
     
  23. Starvigil

    Starvigil
    Member

    @OP did you know that the stadium chant used in every soccer game is actually a Seven Nation Army song.
    This is what culture is about. You take something familiar and make it something new.
    People are out there connecting and having fun in a time when every hates each other. And you try to slap their wrists.
     
  24. DigitalOp

    DigitalOp
    Member OP

    Yes, Benita. This was all a ruse to generate shallow praise so I can hopefully be looked at as a Prominent ERA Member. You figured me out.

    grrrr... Would have gotten away with it too if wasn't for you meddling kids.
     
  25. Crumpo

    Crumpo
    Member

    Benita is not saying that; they are saying that you are bad at discourse. I would agree. If you want to have a discussion, OP, actually be prepared to actively discuss people's points rather than shutting them down. Maybe go look up Critical Thinking on Sparknotes.
     
  26. Cultural moments like that can easily get meme'd the fuck out and drift further away from the source over time, so it's an understandable request to at least get credit before that happens. One minute you're known for a fire dance move. A year later it's replicated in hundreds of internet memes. Gradually it ends up as a gag in Big Bang Theory or Kung Fu Panda. Fortnite was shamelessly attempting go directly to the third phase of it very early on without even giving the artist who choreographed the dance a nod by including their song during the dance, so rightfully got called out over that.


    EDIT: note since there seems to be a very passionate argument taking place ITT: I don't know the whole context of everything that's been said on either side of the debate because I've only read page one and this page, so keep in mind that I'm just dropping my own opinion in here based on that instead of arguing with or on behalf of someone else.
     
  27. DigitalOp

    DigitalOp
    Member OP

    Again, Ive given more than enough view and insight all throughout the thread.

    Its ironic as fuck everyone wants to accuse me of shutting down discourse and that behavior took place on Page 1.

    Irony so thick, Ill spread it on my toast this morning.
     
  28. Gravy Boat

    Gravy Boat
    Member

    The problem is, when someone disagrees with you, your immediate reaction is to try and paint them as a racist. That's fucked up.
     
  29. KunaiDrilla

    KunaiDrilla
    Member

    The OP is not going to get it and he or she already has their mind made up. I posted something similar. Great video BTW.
     
  30. PrintedCrayon

    PrintedCrayon
    Member

    If you're so sure that you've responded to their points, at least point us toward your posts rather than coming across so condescending and just telling us that you've already responded in kind.
     
  31. DigitalOp

    DigitalOp
    Member OP

    Nah, its not that. Its mainly that y'all will be the same ones shitting bricks about Diablo being a mobile game but can't see any issue happening here.

    Your only posts in the thread is you fucking complaining about me and the subject. But I gotta dig through and spoonfeed you?
     
  32. Tzarscream

    Tzarscream
    Member

    You realise you're comparing a massively famous and well known single to relatively unknown/underground dances?
     
  33. Gravy Boat

    Gravy Boat
    Member

    Fuck off with this shit. Not that it actually matters but I've actually said I'm excited for the Diablo mobile game. You're making a shit ton of shitty assumptions that anyone who disagrees with you is a piece of shit.

    And it IS that. If you want I'll happily go through the thread and quote the posts from you an others that are blantly playing the 'If you don't agree then you're racist' card.

    I've said this like 3 times already, but your overall point of Epic not giving credit to creators is valid. But you're turning this issue into something completely different, implying it's a racist one and that anyone who disagress with you is a racist. You've done it to me a couple of times, even when I've explicit said I agree with your overall point. Piss right off if you're going to try and paint me as a racist, or some 'gamer' who rages about mobile games when you actually know fuck all about me. The ONLY issue I've had here is you continually trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a racist. It's pretty appalling.
     
  34. Shmunter

    Shmunter
    Member

    Write a letter to Epic. You won’t get much traction here by the looks of things, especially now with Twitter deplatforming the forum due to reasons. I fully support recognition, just not sure this is a black vs white issu as it’s been presented.
     
  35. Finale Fireworker

    Finale Fireworker
    Love each other or die trying. Moderator

    There is a productive discussion to be had here, but if this thread is to continue, we will need to take it seriously, not antagonize each other, or be dismissive about the topic. Post in good faith and be civil.
     
  36. Dog

    Dog
    Member

    Lol the fuck.
     
  37. PrintedCrayon

    PrintedCrayon
    Member

    I've made my points earlier in the thread, I'll happily link them to you if you want proof.

    I think you'll find we both want the same thing! (artists credited)
     
  38. Sloth Guevara

    Sloth Guevara
    Member


    Again for the cheap seats.


    So you trying to divorce this from race if laughable.
     
  39. Another way of looking at it, maybe: IYO is it unreasonable for that rapper to be concerned that Fortnite appropriating his moves early on in an attempt to repackage it as Fortnite stuff could potentially be like if Soulja Boy's dance was used in the most popular game at the time and then made more famous by that game than via Soulja Boy, preventing him from becoming Soulja Boy (which isn't saying much tbh, dude isn't exactly K-Dot, but at least everyone knows him for the thing he made popular to begin with)?
     
  40. TurtleHead

    TurtleHead
    Member

    At this point, OP is acting in bad faith, because almost no one is agreeing with him.
     
  41. Gravy Boat

    Gravy Boat
    Member

    This specific issue is not a whites vs black issue, like OP is trying to make it out to be. It literally can't be a black specific issue when most of the dances and emotes involved in the discussion don't come from black culture. There is a discussion to be had here but it's not one about race. I've said like 5 times now that I'm totally on board with the creators getting credit.

    This also has absolutely nothing to do with the post if mine that you quoted, which was about OP throwing out the 'well you're a racist' card to anyone who disagrees with him.
     
  42. MrLuchador

    MrLuchador
    Member

  43. Tzarscream

    Tzarscream
    Member

    I don't know what your question is and I think you may be getting the wrong impression by my response.

    My point above is it's hard to re-appropriate source material of a massively mainstream hit single where most people know the artist that made it.

    The example of the football chant he used isn't the same thing as Fortnite and Dancing. Fortnite is mining more underground dances and cultures for content for their mainstream game. Epic are obscuring the link between source and content.
     
  44. hanmik

    hanmik
    Member

    I really don't get your anger towards posters who don't have the exact same opinion as you do.. I get this is a sensitive subject.. and you have answered. But you pretty much started with being hostile.. these are your posts from the first couple of pages.

    your third post (if we don't count the OP), is the only one on the first couple of pages that tries to discuss something.. and it ends with you being angry.. and telling people to use their brains..

    -----------

    The thing is, I can see what the problem is here, and yes the "inventors" of the moves/dances should be credited in the game, no doubt about that. It´s even stupid that Epic changes the names of the moves/dances.. they shouldn't do it.. They do it for every emote/dance in the game, no matter what culture it comes from.. and it is wrong no matter what culture it originates from..

    Please stop being so angry, and try to discuss this instead of getting pissed all the time, ignore the trolls (or even better report them), but please try to discuss and lets have a civil discussion here.
     
  45. Sloth Guevara

    Sloth Guevara
    Member


    How isn’t the issue of minority representation (black) a race loaded question?

    You pointing to other emote/moves that aren’t specific from US black culture doesn’t in any fucking way a counter to what the OP is saying.

    And about you’re racist card it kinda is kinda racist to trivialize/defend how minority culture is appropriated by the majority with no recognition or compensation give to the minority group.
     
  46. Tzarscream

    Tzarscream
    Member

    I'm white I can clearly understand where the OP is coming from, stop trying to "all lives matter" this discussion.
     
  47. Gravy Boat

    Gravy Boat
    Member

    I'm not trivialising anything, is my point. This is an issue, regardless of the culture or the origin of the dance. The creators should get credit, no matter what race they are or where they're from. There's like 50 dances in Fortnite, with NONE of the creators getting credit, many of whom are white, asian, eastern european, black, hispanic. No compensation is being given to ANY group, which is why it's such bad faith to try and boil this down to a whites vs black issue like OP is trying to do.

    The fact that you somehow took my posts as me defining the appropriation of a minority culture is actually baffling.

    Edit: And just to add, I'd be in support of OP if he was just phrasing this as a "I'm sick of black cuture getting used and us not getting the credit" general argument, because that definitely happens and is an issue. But that's NOT what's happening her with Epic and Fortnite. There's no appropriation specific to black cuture, they're taking shit from tons of cultures and using it without giving credit. My issue here is OP calling anyone racist if they doesn't see this specific issue as an attack on black culture.
     
  48. You're 100% right, my mistake. Looks like I replied to you but re-reading what I wrote it was directed at what the person you quoted was saying, not you. Being drunk tonight and losing some ability to focus means time for me to take a break from interneting for now!
     
  49. Dog

    Dog
    Member

    Many many many posters here have said they'd like to see recognition or a reference for the dance moves. Try again.

    As for compensation, that's a whole other can of worms legally I couldn't even begin to understand how it could possibly work seeing as it can be multiple people involved in the process of dance and not just the artist.
     
  50. Qassim

    Qassim
    Member

    This is basically how culture has always disseminated, across cultures, races, nations, for a very long time. If you accept it as an issue, I'm not sure what you could do about it - how does that money 'get back to the community'? How do you prove someone was originator of x? How do you know the person you're crediting with inventing a dance move didn't just see it at a club from some random person and then because that originator is an artist with the means to spread it via a music video (for example), they get the credit for it? In which case are we not in the same situation? You'll get loads of people calling out that they were the originator of a particular dance move, or the popular move is just an iteration on theirs, etc.
     
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