"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.

[Deleted member 8752]

To those saying you cannot copyright a dance... well... that's not entirely true. According to the US Copyright Office:

"Choreography and pantomimes are also copyrightable dramatic works. Choreography is the composition and arrangement of dance movements and patterns usually intended to be accompanied by music. As distinct from choreography, pantomime is the art of imitating or acting out situations, characters, or other events. To be protected by copyright, pantomimes and choreography need not tell a story or be presented before an audience. Each work, however, must be fixed in a tangible medium of expression from which the work can be performed. Note: Sports games and physical-fitness exercises are not considered choreographic works."

 

[SolidSnakex]

I don't think Micheal Jackson invented any dance moves, to be honest... He basically just made them popular while putting his own spin (sometimes literally) on them.

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His most famous move, the moonwalk, was definitely not done by him. Here's Jeffrey Daniel performing it on Top of the Pops a year before MJ would debut his version at MoTown 25



MJ actually got him to teach him the move. And now MJ gets all the credit for it.

 

[HamCormier]

On topic : Found this interesting article about the rights on dance and choreography :

https://lawstreetmedia.com/issues/e...dance-complexities-copyrighting-choreography/

One of the most beloved routines from the last hundred years has been the choreography in West Side Story. The moves are iconic to those in the know. However, it is also a work that many try to steal or emulate–and the copyright owners are watching. In a recent season of Dancing with the Stars, one of the pros tried to recreate the choreography. However, they couldn't use any of the iconic moves. If they did so, it could have caused ABC some major problems. What resulted was a dance that reflected the style of the musical, but didn't use the same routine.

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[L Thammy]

Forgive my ignorance but I would have never associated any dance with a specific culture.

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The flamenco? The cancan? The hopak (cossack dance)?

Dances have been associated with specific cultures for a long time.

 

[Deleted member 268]

It is blatant and shameless.

 

[no1]

i'm sure they say they are, but I doubt it for the bigger artist. similar to how ghost writers work in the industry.

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But that's where you're wrong. Even drakes hotling bling dance was him. So was Soujaboy's stuff, Shoot was also by BlocBoy.

Rappers rarely use choreographers.

 

[Manu]

I guess my question is, are they stealing these dances from minorities only, or from pop culture as a whole? How is this a cultural issue specifically?

I swear I'm not trolling, it's a legit question. I don't know shit about Fortnite.

 

[Ehoavash]

Copyrighting dance moves is dumb and shouldn't be legal.

 

[signal]

I'm ambivalent on payment but credit should be given at the very least.

 

[Deleted member 5853]

Epic's big enough that they can cut the check to JB, to the kid who created the floss dance, to the creators of the Running Man, and so on.

It's not going to be easy, but Epic can afford to spend a little time and money to properly pay people for their dances.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

Putting the actual names is actually the thing they absolutely cannot do. While some generic individual dance moves cannot be copyrighted, you can absolutely trademark the name of a dance move.

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if the scenario Epic is facing for a given emote is choosing between working out a deal to use the original name of a dance move or coming up with a new name and not trying to reach out, it seems completely reasonable to criticize Epic for doing the latter

 

[no1]

Epic's big enough that they can cut the check to JB, to the kid who created the floss dance, to the creators of the Running Man, and so on.

It's not going to be easy, but Epic can afford to spend a little time and money to properly pay people for their dances.

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It's like Orange Justice that fucking kid deserves to be paid for that. So does backpack kid, so does JB.

 

[Gold Arsene]

So does this go for all dance references because League and Overwatch owe a lot of people then I guess

 

[cakely]

I should be able to 'shoot' in public without someone saying "HAHA, Its that dance from Fortnite!" Thats really fucking annoying to hear from white people.

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Wait, what? Is that something you'd actually say out in public?

And before you say "FoRtNiTe MaDe tHeM PoPuLaR"....... No, these dances made it to Fortnite BECAUSE they were already popular. You got it backwards.

What would make this even worse is Are there even black devs working on Fortnite? I could understand a little if they added some of this stuff in, but if EPIC is primarily a white development company, that makes all this shit even more devious and suspect

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Epic Games is 700-man company based in the USA. I'm certain they're as racially diverse as any other software house in this country.

 

[Deleted member 4353]

I agree with you 100% but you know... this pace when they like a game they never see faults.

 

[Biestmann]

I guess my question is, are they stealing these dances from minorities only, or from pop culture as a whole? How is this a cultural issue specifically?

I swear I'm not trolling, it's a legit question. I don't know shit about Fortnite.

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A lot of US pop culture originates in black communities without due credit, which is why either option is interchangeable.

 

[Giever]

I don't think Epic is under any obligation to pay the creators of these moves or even credit them. I do think it would be good of them to credit the source, but, as pointed out in this thread, finding the actual original source in a lot of these cases is probably pretty difficult, and then you're just going back to whoever supposedly popularized it.

 

[Kuroyume]

So apparently you CAN copyright dance moves? If that's the case then they should copyright it instead of expecting Epic to do any right thing.

 

[Deleted member 42484]

Easy solution:

-contract a dance choreographer to come up with original dances in Fortnite
-name the dance/credit the original athlete who did it


This is all kind of weird and new to me. I didn't think dance was a copyright thing. Do these athletes who dance come up with these signature dance moves on their own?

 

[Zukuu]

I guess my question is, are they stealing these dances from minorities only, or from pop culture as a whole? How is this a cultural issue specifically?

I swear I'm not trolling, it's a legit question. I don't know shit about Fortnite.

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They use everything. Happy clap of feet, eating popcorn, iconic dance moves, lesser-known dance moves, weird dance moves, stuff from scrubs, pop culture and whatnot.
The phrasing of this issue OP does is seriously reaching and eye-rolling.

There are definitely times where it totally applies, but in this case, it's crying wolf.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Putting the actual names is actually the thing they absolutely cannot do. While some generic individual dance moves cannot be copyrighted, you can absolutely trademark the name of a dance move.

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They can ABSOLUTELY put the real names in the game. It's called picking up the phone and going "Hey Mr Milly Rock creator, we're gonna put your dance in our game. Cool? Cool, thanks."

If they just dumped the shit in their games like they're doing with the actual names without permission or credits, sure, then they'd be fucked.

Also, you absolutely can copyright dances.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/how-to-copyright-a-dance

As stated above, this is the reason why none of Soulja Boy's dances are in Fortnite; they'd have to pay him regardless even if they changed the names of his shit.

 

[DigitalOp]

Yeah, I'm with you. Dances absolutely have cultural context, relevance, association, etc. The question is whether an artist is owed something for use of the dance if they haven't copyrighted it in some way.

I also question the use of the term 'cultural erasure,' as it implies some kind of evil intent. I think they're just adding dances they know the kids like because it will make them money. Though I guess love of money is the root of all evil.

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Cultural Erasure is when you're wiping the source connection to something.

Its what happened when Elvis was brought in to sell Black Music to white people because they were too damn racist to enjoy the music from Black Entertainers to begin with.

Another good example is White People thinking their entitled to say the N-Word because Hip-Hop is a global culture they partake in. Uhhh no, Hip-Hop is a reflection of our truths and a cultural lifestyle. Its incredibly honest and it was marketed that way to be transparent, but people don't get to claim ownership over the way we dress, talk, and interact simply because its global now.

Especially when we're demonized for partaking in our own stuff we create.

They use everything. Happy clap of feet, eating popcorn, iconic dance moves, lesser-known dance moves, weird dance moves, stuff from scrubs, pop culture and whatnot.
The phrasing of this issue OP does is seriously reaching and eye-rolling.

There are definitely times where it totally applies, but in this case, it's crying wolf.

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Obviously Im referring to dances that originate from Black Culture.

I really wish y'all would use your brains. You posters are the main ones crying about CONTEXT when its convenient, but quick to ignore shit when you want to make points.

Shit gets tiring.

 

[Manu]

A lot of US pop culture originates in black communities without due credit, which is why either option is interchangeable.

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Gotcha. Thanks.

They use everything. Happy clap of feet, eating popcorn, iconic dance moves, lesser-known dance moves, weird dance moves, stuff from scrubs, pop culture and whatnot.
The phrasing of this issue OP does is seriously reaching and eye-rolling.

There are definitely times where it totally applies, but in this case, it's crying wolf.

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Welp. Now I don't know what to believe anymore lol

 

[Reinhard]

Companies aren't going to pay money since a few seconds of dance moves aren't copyrightable, it has to be an entire work that conveys a theme/emotional concept to the audience such as choreography found in a Broadway play. Now credit should definitely be given, I find that to be ridiculous that Fortnight takes without acknowledgement of the original piece.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Who owes who money for this?

Only reason Fortnite ain't implementing white people dances is that white people can't dance. Prove me wrong.

 

[BernardoOne]

They can ABSOLUTELY put the real names in the game. It's called picking up the phone and going "Hey Mr Milly Rock creator, we're gonna put your dance in our game. Cool? Cool, thanks."

If they just dumped the shit in their games like they're doing with the actual names without permission or credits, sure, then they'd be fucked.

Also, you absolutely can copyright dances.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/how-to-copyright-a-dance

As stated above, this is the reason why none of Soulja Boy's dances are in Fortnite; they'd have to pay him regardless even if they changed the names of his shit.

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"Cool thanks"? No, plenty would be asking for money. Despite the fact that many weren't the original inventors of the moves either.

Soulja Boy dances are not in Fortnite because nobody gives a shit about Soulja Boy in the year of our Lord 2018. Destiny has a Soulja Boy emote and i'll bet you 50$ Activision hasn't paid a cent for it.

 

[Deleted member 5853]

So does this go for all dance references because League and Overwatch owe a lot of people then I guess

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I mean, yes?

Ideally, you should be able to pay these people for using their creations. Is it difficult? Sure. Is it the right thing to do? 100%.

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

MMO's (and mobas ie. League of Legends) have been using popular dances for a lot longer than Fortnite too but I don't remember anyone calling it cultural erasure at the time?
Like the Melbourne Shuffle had been done a bunch of times but people seemed to embrace it. Whats changed?

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I feel like the dialogue and the constant claims of "cultural appropriation" was the change.

TBH, I don't fully understand what the solution people who claim cultural appropriation is. Before, an example was "diminishing a native american head dress that has spiritual significance as a random accessory" which is something I can get behind because there is a level of significance I understand.

But now, it feels like "people are not allowed to engage in others cultures".

People keep saying "credit needs to be given" but do we really need white rappers constantly stating the obvious that rap is a predominantly and culturally black art form? Or even more bizarre white rappers must pay black institutions or charities if they want to be rappers?

The dialogue of cultural appropriation to me feels bizarre when we are talking about things that have been placed into popular culture.

And games are basically just rebranding them to avoid paying copyright.

 

[Doc Kelso]

To be pedantic about it, because pedantry is needed with something as vague as dancing, what do you credit?

If I put my right foot in and then my left foot out, and then put my right foot out and shake it round and round, am I still doing the hokey-pokey? Or am I doing something derivative? Or is it the hokey-pokey because that's what someone recognizes it as? Do I credit as "Inspired by the hokey-pokey"? Even if there are other dances with a similar style?

I'm obviously simplifying it to an extreme degree, but bodily movement is all but impossible to enforce as a copyright. Choreography refers to a very specific routine of moves, as far as I am aware, and not a single "dance".

For instance, the entirety of Thriller would be choreographed, while chunks of it may not be considered as such.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

Epic Games is 700-man company based in the USA. I'm certain they're as racially diverse as any other software house in this country.

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So, basically, "not at all".

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

I agree. We also already had this thread and I assume it'll take the same course as last time with the majority disagreeing and saying the creators of dances deserve no credit.

 

[Skux]

To those saying you cannot copyright a dance... well... that's not entirely true. According to the US Copyright Office:

"Choreography and pantomimes are also copyrightable dramatic works. Choreography is the composition and arrangement of dance movements and patterns usually intended to be accompanied by music. As distinct from choreography, pantomime is the art of imitating or acting out situations, characters, or other events. To be protected by copyright, pantomimes and choreography need not tell a story or be presented before an audience. Each work, however, must be fixed in a tangible medium of expression from which the work can be performed. Note: Sports games and physical-fitness exercises are not considered choreographic works."

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You can copyright a dance routine (a "choreographic work"), but not a dance move. Fortnite emotes are dance moves.

 

[Gold Arsene]

I mean, yes?

Ideally, you should be able to pay these people for using their creations. Is it difficult? Sure. Is it the right thing to do? 100%.

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Guess I was just wondering because no one ever seems to bring these games up.

Or at least not as often.

 

[DigitalOp]

"Cool thanks"? No, plenty would be asking for money. Despite the fact that many weren't the original inventors of the moves either.

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JB BlocBoy invented the Shoot. Nobody did that shit before him.

2Milly invented the Milly Rock, again nobody before him.


Y'all really trying out here.

Guess I was just wondering because no one ever seems to bring these games up.

Or at least not as often.

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Its absolutely fair to mention that Fortnite gets targeted because its the most popular.

Then again, nobodies calling them "Overwatch Dances", or "Destiny Dances"

 

[TheMadTitan]

The flamenco? The cancan? The hopak (cossack dance)?

Dances have been associated with specific cultures for a long time.

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Or even this shit!



Because you definitely see people doing this out in the barrio out in East LA and not something intrinsically tied to Irish culture.

 

[L Thammy]

Honestly, I feel like this topic needs to be brought up with a history lesson. Saying "Fortnite took a bunch of dances from black artists" may draw a response of "well, who cares" by itself, but it looks a lot worse when you start from ragtime and then work your way through all of America's unique cultural phenomenons and see how many were taken.

 

[kvetcha]

Cultural Erasure is when you're wiping the source connection to something.

Its what happened when Elvis was brought in to sell Black Music to white people because they were too damn racist to enjoy the music from Black Entertainers to begin with.

Another good example is White People thinking their entitled to say the N-Word because Hip-Hop is a global culture they partake in. Uhhh no, Hip-Hop is a reflection of our truths and a cultural lifestyle. Its incredibly honest and it was marketed that way to be transparent, but people don't get to claim ownership over the way we dress, talk, and interact simply because its global now.

Especially when we're demonized for partaking in our own stuff we create.

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Thanks for elaborating.

In this case, though, wouldn't you assume that the emotes are being added into Fortnite *because* they are popular? The fact that other kids, who might never listen to hip-hop or know the origins of the moves, are exposed to them is a knock-on effect. But it's not the primary intent.

Like, I see your point I think you're probably right, but I'm not sure what there is to be done about it since we're dealing with something that is not copyrighted or otherwise Protected in any legal sense. It's perhaps a frustrating situation, but it's not one I see an easy solution to unless artists are willing to use existing legal systems to protect their intellectual property.

 

[psychowave]

Only reason Fortnite ain't implementing white people dances is that white people can't dance. Prove me wrong.

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white americans, maybe :P

 

[Zukuu]

JB BlocBoy invented the Shoot. Nobody did that shit before him.

2Milly invented the Milly Rock, again nobody before him.


Y'all really trying out here.

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You think he does. Then somebody comes out with proof he did it 5 years before. Just because somebody makes something popular, doesn't mean they automatically invented it. See the Moonwalk. MJ didn't invent it - he merely made it popular. Would you credit MJ, since you based it on one of this music videos or the "real" inventor?

Good luck with finding the origin to eating popcorn too.

 

[kvetcha]

Only reason Fortnite ain't implementing white people dances is that white people can't dance. Prove me wrong.

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*points generally in the direction of Russia*

 

[Kaz Mk II]

I'd prefer devs not have to pay an emote tax for trendy dances.

Hell if this happens, there's probably going to be a boom of people making up stupid dances that might eventually get popular in the future, then when they do get to claim to be the "first one" to do it.

It's just too complex a situation for short dance moves/body jiggles to be essentially copyrighted.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

of course this discussion is always bound to devolve into legal pedantry but i extremely do not care about whether JB followed the right legal processes to get money from Epic

it's clear that it's in Fortnite because of him, it's clear that people love it in Fortnite, and it seems clear as fuck that Epic can afford to acknowledge this

 

[Kinthey]

So does this go for all dance references because League and Overwatch owe a lot of people then I guess

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Even goes back to World of Warcraft

 

[Rover]

This whole "you can't copyright a dance" argument doesn't pass the smell test.

People used to not copyright songs, either. You could even argue songs are often derivative of other songs, and multiple people work on them. A lot of times the people you see performing the songs, did not write the songs. Nevertheless, the songs are copyright-protected, attributed to artists, and cost royalties to use. It would not be okay to play a song in Fort Nite and just rename it to not credit the author.

It's kind of easy to dismiss these concerns if you've never created something like this that is vulnerable to being ripped off.

And if you think it's crazy that black artists want to get credit and ownership of their work, maybe you have not stopped to consider how often black art has been ripped off and reclaimed only to have the same society turn around and say "black people have never contributed anything to culture and society!"

Point blank, it's bullshit, underlined by the fact that Epic is selling it as DLC.

 

[Craig]

JB BlocBoy invented the Shoot. Nobody did that shit before him.

2Milly invented the Milly Rock, again nobody before him.


Y'all really trying out here.

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How can you prove no one did these "dances" before them

If they copy it almost exactly but change it very slightly, is it still the same dance?

 

[ynthrepic]

I feel like the dialogue and the constant claims of "cultural appropriation" was the change.

TBH, I don't fully understand what the solution people who claim cultural appropriation is. Before, an example was "diminishing a native american head dress that has spiritual significance as a random accessory" which is something I can get behind because there is a level of significance I understand.

But now, it feels like "people are not allowed to engage in others cultures".

People keep saying "credit needs to be given" but do we really need white rappers constantly stating the obvious that rap is a predominantly and culturally black art form? Or even more bizarre white rappers must pay black institutions or charities if they want to be rappers?

The dialogue of cultural appropriation to me feels bizarre when we are talking about things that have been placed into popular culture.

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If that's what is actually happening then fuck that. Hip Hop culture is diversity and equality and celebrates inclusivity on a global scale, and to say otherwise you have to be pushing a warped view from a distorted media lens.

 

[Dark Knight]

I should be able to 'shoot' in public without someone saying "HAHA, Its that dance from Fortnite!" Thats really fucking annoying to hear from white people.

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Pretty off-topic but reminds me of sometimes when I'm walking my shiba inus I hear little kids going "OMG doggo from internet!" or something like that. Obviously not nearly as harmful as what you're describing, but people in general have such shallow, face-value perspectives about most things.

 

[ShortNasty]

Or even this shit!



Because you definitely see people doing this out in the barrio out in East LA and not something intrinsically tied to Irish culture.

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That's a pretty good example. You see someone doing that shit you know it's "river dance". Although, I don't even know if that's the actual term. But you get my point. As long as people express or label where the shit is from it allows the source/original to not be "erased".

 

[TheMadTitan]

"Cool thanks"? No, plenty would be asking for money. Despite the fact that many weren't the original inventors of the moves either.

Soulja Boy dances are not in Fortnite because nobody gives a shit about Soulja Boy in the year of our Lord 2018. Destiny has a Soulja Boy emote and i'll bet you 50$ Activision hasn't paid a cent for it.

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Are you really picking on my pedantic "cool thanks" as if that's going to break down the argument. Of course they're going to ask for money! Just like these things won't be resolved in a literal phone call! It was a facetious statement summarizing a process, not a literal 1:1 translation of what they're going to do.

No one has to give a shit about Soulja Boy to stop and do the Superman as soon as that shitty ass song drops No one gives a shit about Snoop Dogg these days either (I do tho), but we got the drop it like it's hot dance in Fortnite, and that song and dance were a lot less culturally relevant than Soulja Boy's stuff.

And are we going to pretend that we can't trace that dance back to Snoop even though the entire body movement is reflective of driving swagger and posturing people take when trying to look cool while driving in a reflection of low rider culture; something that's a reflection of black and latino communities in LA? Because that would be a silly argument.

 

[DigitalOp]

Thanks for elaborating.

In this case, though, wouldn't you assume that the emotes are being added into Fortnite *because* they are popular? The fact that other kids, who might never listen to hip-hop or know the origins of the moves, are exposed to them is a knock-on effect. But it's not the primary intent.

Like, I see your point I think you're probably right, but I'm not sure what there is to be done about it since we're dealing with something that is not copyrighted or otherwise Protected in any legal sense. It's perhaps a frustrating situation, but it's not one I see an easy solution to unless artists are willing to use existing legal systems to protect their intellectual property.

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Again, I have no problems with people doing the dances, have fun. The shit is fun.

But when you're robbing the origin to replace it with Fortnite is where the Black Community looks at everyone funny.

Put it like this, If White Suburban Moms ACTUALLY saw who came up with these dances and where they're from, they'd tell their kids to stop doing it in a heartbeat.