Oct 25, 2017
3,329
First two episodes were awesome!

Took a minute to settle into the first episode but by the halfway point I was hooked.

Love this show already and excited to see more.
 

blackhawk163

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,355
Definitely slower paced third episode in an already slow paced show. But wtf at the ending of episode two not being shown or resolved in episode three. Did I miss something? The Empire's ascension was certainly a sight. Quite jarring actually, and so matter of fact.
 

AlteredBeast

Don't Watch the Tape!
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,927
This show is definitely something else, right?

Like episode 2 ends on a huge cliffhanger and then episode 3 jumps several years into the future. Like, I am positive that they will resolve both items in a future episode, but this is like the third time in the show that major things have happened and then they are kind of just brushed off for a different plotline. I don't know if I hate it yet, but if it continues like this, I definitely will lol

Positives for the first 3 episodes:
  1. The Empires are cool. I love the concept of a constant stream of Dawn, Day, and Dusk.
  2. The Special Effects are for the most part really well done (there have been some glaring exceptions)
  3. The reveal that the artifact on Terminus wasn't built by the colony, but existed before. Gives me an obelisk from 2001 vibe now, (don't ruin it for me, book-readers!)
  4. The world's themselves are very interesting, even if the series itself eschews world-building oftentimes for matter-of-fact plot pivots.
  5. No HBO-type, "Look at me, I'm on cable, let's cram tits and ass in every episode" content. If this ends up being really good, this is a show I'd love to show my kids. In fact, the women characters have been dressed appropriately for their settings in every episode I can remember. Hallelujah
  6. Some great acting from a handful of the actors.
  7. Slow pace for me is good. With all the jumping around and the introduction of so many characters, it is hard to get a feel for all of them. Episode 3 could have felt like a filler episode, but it really revealed a lot about the Empires, their histories, and it ditched the kid actor, which is always a plus (nothing worse in media than a shoe-horned kid), it also expanded on how Terminus was built, and the erosion of the belief system of its inhabitants, the role of the warden, etc.

Negatives/Things that bug me
  1. The constant jumping around reduces the impact of every scene, as well as the time shifts. When is this happening, now? was this scene 20 years in the past, or twenty years after the ship left the planet?
  2. The constant jumping around makes the story feel like the characters shouldn't have progressed, nor their relationships together. Like, in one scene Raych and Gaal barely know each other, and in the next, they have fallen in love and are intimate.
  3. If Psychohistory can only be interpreted by two people ever, what's the point of hiding it in a magic eight-ball? Why keep it a secret? Is it because, as Gaal says, Hari took a couple of liberties with two parts that weren't complete? Was Hari just a narcissist? Why wouldn't you invite all the best and brightest to study the formula?
  4. I wish it would show the relationship that the Empires have with Terminus. Do they send emissaries? Do they check in on the progress?
  5. If and when they end up pivoting back to the loose thread storylines, it's going to lessen the impact of that cliffhanger. You can't shoot Gaal in a capsule in an asteroid belt and then pick it up a few episodes later and expect the audience to care as much as continuing from that moment.
  6. The Han Solo character introduced in episode 3 says "hard pass." That just feels out of place as hell in this show. Might as well have Gaal refer to Hari as "based scientist dude" at that point.
I am sure I could remember a few things for column A and B if I tried. I am still on-board, but episode 4 needs to fire on all cylinders, or I'll probably drop off. My wife doesn't like it, and I almost never watch TV, so I'm not going to pencil in an hour each week to watch something unless I love it.
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,213
This show is definitely something else, right?

Like episode 2 ends on a huge cliffhanger and then episode 3 jumps several years into the future. Like, I am positive that they will resolve both items in a future episode, but this is like the third time in the show that major things have happened and then they are kind of just brushed off for a different plotline. I don't know if I hate it yet, but if it continues like this, I definitely will lol

Positives for the first 3 episodes:
  1. The Empires are cool. I love the concept of a constant stream of Dawn, Day, and Dusk.
  2. The Special Effects are for the most part really well done (there have been some glaring exceptions)
  3. The reveal that the artifact on Terminus wasn't built by the colony, but existed before. Gives me an obelisk from 2001 vibe now, (don't ruin it for me, book-readers!)
  4. The world's themselves are very interesting, even if the series itself eschews world-building oftentimes for matter-of-fact plot pivots.
  5. No HBO-type, "Look at me, I'm on cable, let's cram tits and ass in every episode" content. If this ends up being really good, this is a show I'd love to show my kids. In fact, the women characters have been dressed appropriately for their settings in every episode I can remember. Hallelujah
  6. Some great acting from a handful of the actors.
  7. Slow pace for me is good. With all the jumping around and the introduction of so many characters, it is hard to get a feel for all of them. Episode 3 could have felt like a filler episode, but it really revealed a lot about the Empires, their histories, and it ditched the kid actor, which is always a plus (nothing worse in media than a shoe-horned kid), it also expanded on how Terminus was built, and the erosion of the belief system of its inhabitants, the role of the warden, etc.

Negatives/Things that bug me
  1. The constant jumping around reduces the impact of every scene, as well as the time shifts. When is this happening, now? was this scene 20 years in the past, or twenty years after the ship left the planet?
  2. The constant jumping around makes the story feel like the characters shouldn't have progressed, nor their relationships together. Like, in one scene Raych and Gaal barely know each other, and in the next, they have fallen in love and are intimate.
  3. If Psychohistory can only be interpreted by two people ever, what's the point of hiding it in a magic eight-ball? Why keep it a secret? Is it because, as Gaal says, Hari took a couple of liberties with two parts that weren't complete? Was Hari just a narcissist? Why wouldn't you invite all the best and brightest to study the formula?
  4. I wish it would show the relationship that the Empires have with Terminus. Do they send emissaries? Do they check in on the progress?
  5. If and when they end up pivoting back to the loose thread storylines, it's going to lessen the impact of that cliffhanger. You can't shoot Gaal in a capsule in an asteroid belt and then pick it up a few episodes later and expect the audience to care as much as continuing from that moment.
  6. The Han Solo character introduced in episode 3 says "hard pass." That just feels out of place as hell in this show. Might as well have Gaal refer to Hari as "based scientist dude" at that point.
I am sure I could remember a few things for column A and B if I tried. I am still on-board, but episode 4 needs to fire on all cylinders, or I'll probably drop off. My wife doesn't like it, and I almost never watch TV, so I'm not going to pencil in an hour each week to watch something unless I love it.
This is probably my biggest gripe with the series right now.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,733
Watched Episode 3.

I don't think week-by-week is a good format for the series.
The pace and cliffhangers would be more tolerable if I could binge the series.
 

D.Dragoon

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,353
That dumbass Lewis is about to be bamboozled while everyone is telling him he is getting bamboozled.
 

Tigel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
668
This show is definitely something else, right?

Like episode 2 ends on a huge cliffhanger and then episode 3 jumps several years into the future. Like, I am positive that they will resolve both items in a future episode, but this is like the third time in the show that major things have happened and then they are kind of just brushed off for a different plotline. I don't know if I hate it yet, but if it continues like this, I definitely will lol
You must have hated LOST when it aired lol Sometimes they introduced a plot point (ex: Locke getting knocked out in season 1) only to ignore it for several episodes. I'm not worried that we'll get answers in due time.
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,068
I'm loving the show.

The emperor stuff in particular is way more enjoyable than I initially thought it might be.
 

sonnyboy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,496
My wife and I have been thoroughly enjoying the series, I'm surprised to see the low ratings.
 

pokeystaples

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,873
Surprised so many people just want the episodes dumped. Cliffhangers used to be the thing that kept people coming back.
 

sonnyboy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,496
People don't like it because it's different than the books.

Understood. But that's always going to be the case, somethings have to be changed during the adaption process. Listening to the official podcast really enlightened me to the process.

I bet once people who didn't read the books start to watch it, the ratings will go up.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
This is Space Opera, through and through. Any Science that may have been behind it when it was written 70 years ago is long irrelevant, and even back then I don't believe it was attempting to be realistic. It's good entertainment, though.
 

Faith in Fate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
261
I'm loving this but damn do I wish I was able to binge it. I'm considering skipping weekly and then just watch it all when the season is over
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,360
Lee Pace carries his scenes hard
This is Space Opera, through and through. Any Science that may have been behind it when it was written 70 years ago is long irrelevant, and even back then I don't believe it was attempting to be realistic. It's good entertainment, though.
Ofcourse, because it's talking about an unimaginable large empire in the far far future. It was never really meant to be fully sci fi.

That said Psychohistory ended up being realised as a reality in Big Data, and we've only scratched the surface so far.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
an unimaginable large empire in the far far future.
The more I think about it, the less plausible this seems to me, as a future for humanity. The physics of interstellar communication just seem to prohibit the existence of any kind of coherent human society over distances of many lightyears.

That said Psychohistory ended up being realised as a reality in Big Data, and we've only scratched the surface so far.
You mean the idea that human behavior can be modeled as a random variable? I'm not sure that's due to Asimov.
 

Jonatron

Member
Apr 22, 2020
441
Other than the performances for Day, Dusk and Dermezel, the acting in this is a chore to sit through.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,360
The more I think about it, the less plausible this seems to me, as a future for humanity. The physics of interstellar communication just seem to prohibit the existence of any kind of coherent human society over distances of many lightyears.
Well they also have FTL travel. FTL travel and communication is as typical for science fiction as anything really.

You mean the idea that human behavior can be modeled as a random variable? I'm not sure that's due to Asimov.
It may not be due to him but psychohistory is name dropped/cited a lot in big data research.
 

ngower

Member
Nov 20, 2017
4,194
I like the series so far, not sure where the critiques are coming from. It isn't perfect but it's still some pretty stunning world design.
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,658
The more I think about it, the less plausible this seems to me, as a future for humanity. The physics of interstellar communication just seem to prohibit the existence of any kind of coherent human society over distances of many lightyears.

Its an action sci-fi series with a thin layer of pseudo-philosophy over the top. There's basically no way to create a series like this that is scientifically valid. Its like rejecting Captain America because the super serum isn't biologically plausible.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Its an action sci-fi series with a thin layer of pseudo-philosophy over the top. There's basically no way to create a series like this that is scientifically valid. Its like rejecting Captain America because the super serum isn't biologically plausible.
Oh I'm not rejecting the series, I'm enjoying it immensely, while simultaneously calling into question the claim that it is science fiction.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Well they also have FTL travel. FTL travel and communication is as typical for science fiction as anything really.
True, which is a major problem because it essentially means most science fiction (most of it that's set in space, that is) is stuck in the 19th century and is no longer truly forward thinking in the same way that the works of Jules Verne were in their time.

It may not be due to him but psychohistory is name dropped/cited a lot in big data research.
I'll certainly give you that. Even Nobel laureates in economics credit Asimov's psycho-history with influencing their career trajectory.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,360
True, which is a major problem because it essentially means most science fiction is stuck in the 19th century and is no longer truly forward thinking in the same way that the works of Jules Verne were in their time.
Well FTL is not entirely impossible, it's just that given our current understanding of physics it is impossible and there's nothing to say that our understanding is complete in this area. But even then warp drives are theoretically possible, and fit within general relativity.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
What? How? That this is science fiction isn't even a question, just like Frankenstein, Harry Harrison's Deathworld, or Star Wars
It's more of a semantic argument I guess. I'm not trying to deny that these are well-established tropes. It just continues to bother me that they've become so widespread that there's little objection to relying on them despite the fact that they clearly contradict established science. It means the term "science fiction" is just another way of saying "space fantasy".
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Well FTL is not entirely impossible, it's just that given our current understanding of physics it is impossible and there's nothing to say that our understanding is complete in this area. But even then warp drives are theoretically possible, and fit within general relativity.
Only under veeeery tenuous assumptions which so far have no empirical basis, making them essentially just mathematically rigorous wishful thinking.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,299
It's more of a semantic argument I guess. I'm not trying to deny that these are well-established tropes. It just continues to bother me that they've become so widespread that there's little objection to relying on them despite the fact that they clearly contradict established science. It means the term "science fiction" is just another way of saying "space fantasy".
I was just telling my wife and sister that a lot of media borrowed heavily from this. Because of that, I wonder how fresh this will feel to newcomers.

To me, the books are classic sci fi.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,733
I was hopeful after the first two episodes as someone who knew about the Foundation series but never read it.

But this pace is killing me.
Mind you, I have no issues with plots taking a long time but 4 episodes in, it looks like the Anacreon plot will take the rest of the season.

That is NOT what I thought a Foundation adaptation was going to be. I expected massive time jumps, SEEING the fall of the Empire, its dark ages, its renaissance. With 10 episodes a year and that pace, we will be still at the early downfall when the series will be canceled after 3 to 4 seasons.
 

Morzak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
344
It's more of a semantic argument I guess. I'm not trying to deny that these are well-established tropes. It just continues to bother me that they've become so widespread that there's little objection to relying on them despite the fact that they clearly contradict established science. It means the term "science fiction" is just another way of saying "space fantasy".

Expecting Foundation not be full of Sci-Fi tropes is a bit silly, Asimov and his contemporaries basically created or popularized those tropes. they became widespread because of the influence they had on the next genaration of Authors and TV/Movie Writers. There is just no way to do a Intergalactic Civilisaiton with hard Sience Fiction. Even the current darling like The Expanse stops as soon as the Gates come into play IMO. If you only want to call stuff that is basically confined to our Solarsystem and is set in the Future "Science Fiction" you are changing the whole Genre comepletely.

I was hopeful after the first two episodes as someone who knew about the Foundation series but never read it.

But this pace is killing me.
Mind you, I have no issues with plots taking a long time but 4 episodes in, it looks like the Anacreon plot will take the rest of the season.

That is NOT what I thought a Foundation adaptation was going to be. I expected massive time jumps, SEEING the fall of the Empire, its dark ages, its renaissance. With 10 episodes a year and that pace, we will be still at the early downfall when the series will be canceled after 3 to 4 seasons.

I mean in the Books the Empire isn't gone for a long time, It is now some time that I read them all, but If I recall correctly there is still a remnant of the old Empire on Trantor in the 3rd Book. So the pace isn't that much of the problem, but It seems to me that they have no Idea what to do with the actual plot from the Book on Terminus.....

I hope the show develops into a enjoyable Sci-fi show that shares some names and concepts with the books....
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,460
It's more of a semantic argument I guess. I'm not trying to deny that these are well-established tropes. It just continues to bother me that they've become so widespread that there's little objection to relying on them despite the fact that they clearly contradict established science. It means the term "science fiction" is just another way of saying "space fantasy".

If you want science fiction to be entirely scientifically plausible, you can remove about 95% of the genre. That's not what science fiction is about. Even hard sci-fi, which is a lot more rigorous when it comes to (theoretical) science, takes liberties in favor of storytelling. Because in the end it's still fiction, not a paper in Science or Nature.

I still quite like The Foundation. It's not The Expanse, but despite its slow pace I'm still enjoying it. I'm just a sucker for huge scale sci-fi.
 

i_am_ben

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,061
I think one thing they've really failed to do is make terminus its own character. Why are we supposed to care about this little backwater?
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,574
I haven't been this into a show in a long time. Just plowed through what's there and eagerly anticipating the next ep.
 

ceej

Member
Mar 9, 2021
4,837
Reno, Nv.
If you want science fiction to be entirely scientifically plausible, you can remove about 95% of the genre. That's not what science fiction is about. Even hard sci-fi, which is a lot more rigorous when it comes to (theoretical) science, takes liberties in favor of storytelling. Because in the end it's still fiction, not a paper in Science or Nature.

I still quite like The Foundation. It's not The Expanse, but despite its slow pace I'm still enjoying it. I'm just a sucker for huge scale sci-fi.
I was really impressed after reading the first book and a half of The Expanse series with how accurate the show was to the source material. Then I did some googling and found out the writers are producers on the show and are very hands on. Makes sense now, Haha!