France : "yellow vests" protest movement is causing political instability

[Herb Alpert]

I'm surprised there isn't more talks about the events here in France.

It has been 3 weeks that people from a large scope of age and social classes have been blocking roads and take different actions (free highway, blocking supermarkets...). The origin of the protest was the sentiment of loss of purchase power as emblematic taxes on gasoline were announced, justified by the government by the climate urgency. This a really heterogenous movement without any clear leader, which makes the negociations really difficult.

The government were probably hoping that the protests would not last, but they kinda lost their bet, as each new saturday brought more violent movements in the street of Paris and some other places in the country. A lot of observers used of the term of "insurection" when describing the scenes of last saturday in Paris , see this thread.

Now more and more people are joining the protestation (high schoolers, students, truck drivers, railroad sector, agricultors) and, despite the fact that the government made some concessions (supension of some taxes, organisations of talks to change the fiscality system), people seem more and more angry at the person of the president and are asking for his demission. There is also the fear of a more radicalized, violent movement and the casualties that could happen potentially if the events of last saturday were to repeat themselves...

All in all, France is going through a major political crisis at the moment, and the issue is totally uncertain...

(sorry for the bad english, I'm obviously French)

 

[julia crawford]

Been seeing things on the TV. Looks absolutely crazy with the fires and wreckage and burns cars... but i'm not knowledgeable enough to understand the political realities of France and whether the sentiments of revolt actually reflect the economy or the lives of the people.

I have family in France, though none in the cities i've seen in TV. Things are looking grim.

 

[Holden]

Yeah this shit is really worrying me, I wonder if this is by product of having 5 different parties trying to control the executive branch, then after the one wins the other four teams up and bashes the government non-stop

 

[Iceternal]

This is an American centric forum so anything that happens outside of the USA doesn't matter... (brexit being an exception).

But yeah ... Macron is done.

 

[Gwenpoolshark]

So this is basically what if May '68 was latently fascist instead of communist?

Sounds like a bad fucking deal.

French culture has a long history of faux-revolutionary countercultural protest movements that make a lot of noise but often result in little. That being said, this is a scary and unruly situation and anyone who thinks that this movement is uniformly leftist and anti-neoliberal is deluding themselves. There's definite fash presence in that crowd and even though Macron sucks ass, the American left should be cautious in endorsing what's happening here.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

What exactly led to the public turning on Macron so swiftly?

 

[ISOM]

Crazy this thread didn't get made earlier. This seems pretty big for France and Macron.

 

[BerserkGamer95]

Macron came into power. In a very short period of of time, he cancelled taxes for the very wealthy people, rise privileges for members of government... He add taxes for retired people, cut aid for students housing... And he regularly insulted the people he is supposed to serve. He calls poor people "teethless" he said unemployed are nothing and even insulted us in speeches he made abroad.
And now, I have never seen such a hatred. It's too late for Macron I think.

 

[ISOM]

This is an American centric forum so anything that happens outside of the USA doesn't matter... (brexit being an exception).

But yeah ... Macron is done.

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Well posters from Europe can post news from their countries but largely they don't.

 

[Herb Alpert]

Though I'm really reserved about some aspects of the movement, I don't think "fascist" is a right way to describe it.

There are right wing assholes in it (some dudes even denounced hidden migrants near the border), there are selfish people that just don't want to pay any taxes, there are anarchists that just want to watch the world burn but there is also a lot of people that just can't finish the month with their pay, as salaries havent rised for the last 2 decades in france while everything else has.

 

[Ashby]

Does Macron suck so much that he deserves this?

 

[Deleted member 2809]

Does Macron suck so much that he deserves this?

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Lol not even close

 

[Deleted member 23212]

So, doing some research Macron's approval rating is as low as Hollande's at his lowest. I'd say that's a hint that it's probably not just the individual candidates that are the problem, but rather something much closer to the core.

 

[Herb Alpert]

Does Macron suck so much that he deserves this?

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It's complex.
He made a lot of communication mistakes, sent some really wrong signals (cuting taxes for the rich while raising them for the poor) and is perceived as contemptuous and not caring for the poorest classes. He's essentially a neo liberal and France hasn't this culture at all.

 

[anthro]

So this is basically what if May '68 was latently fascist instead of communist?

Sounds like a bad fucking deal.

French culture has a long history of faux-revolutionary countercultural protest movements that make a lot of noise but often result in little. That being said, this is a scary and unruly situation and anyone who thinks that this movement is uniformly leftist and anti-neoliberal is deluding themselves. There's definite fash presence in that crowd and even though Macron sucks ass, the American left should be cautious in endorsing what's happening here.

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It seems like it has become a broad condemnation of Macron. I don't know if it can be characterized as specifically fascist, even though they're there. There was that street brawl on Saturday (I think) where some dude associated with the fascists got his ass kicked by other yellow vests, for instance.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Macron came into power. In a very short period of of time, he cancelled taxes for the very wealthy people, rise privileges for members of government... He add taxes for retired people, cut aid for students housing... And he regularly insulted the people he is supposed to serve. He calls poor people "teethless" he said unemployed are nothing and even insulted us in speeches he made abroad.
And now, I have never seen such a hatred. It's too late for Macron I think.

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basically. he was a "centrist" that has basically sanctioned extreme state austerity and not for any public good either, just to funnel it to pro business initiatives while cutting taxes on the rich upper class and raising it on the lower classes.

You cant call these protests unjustified at all

 

[ahoyhoy]

This forum is the only place I see painting it as a "fascist" movement, when basically every other news outlet is saying that the far-right element is just a preexisting movement that's trying to latch on to the spontaneous anger (same as the far left elements).

This movement above else indicates people are pissed. The French abide no fools in their government.

 

[marrec]

This forum is the only place I see painting it as a "fascist" movement, when basically every other news outlet is saying that the far-right element is just a preexisting movement that's trying to latch on to the spontaneous anger (same as the far left elements).

This movement above else indicates people are pissed. The French abide no fools in their government.

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Indeed, everyone actually on the ground at these protests seem to be confused at this idea that this is somehow even tangentially fascist. Powerful politicians are trying to latch onto and use the anger but it's remained largely rudderless despite all that.

 

[sibarraz]

I always have this idea that this forum gives way too much relevance to voting over taking the streets to get shit done. In that sense this forum is very US minded.

In that sense, I would never take this place as "leftist" even though compared to other gaming forums that are complete cespools it is left leaning

 

[WonkyPanda]

Isn't the biggest story here the revolt against a carbon emissions tax, so to speak. Clearly, curbing emissions may not be the slam dunk politicians are looking for. I mean, things got dicey in CA with the gas tax, but it survived a referendum. I wonder how different France's tax is in comparison.

 

[sphagnum]

What exactly led to the public turning on Macron so swiftly?

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France has never liked Macron. They only voted for him because he wasnt Le Pen. His approval numbers have been abysmal for some time.

 

[Bleu]

He calls poor people "teethless" .

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That was Hollande (les sans dents), not Macron. He did say some stupid shit, but not this one.

Does Macron suck so much that he deserves this?

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No, it's anti-tax populism at the core, and the root causes predate Macron, but now both far right and far left are throwing fuel to the fire.
Carnival of stupid.

 

[Herb Alpert]

The French abide no fools in their government.

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We have been governed by a lot of fools for a loooooong time.

 

[Kareha]

Have they started burning sheep yet?

 

[Alx]

basically. he was a "centrist" that has basically sanctioned extreme state austerity and not for any public good either, just to funnel it to pro business initiatives while cutting taxes on the rich upper class and raising it on the lower classes.

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He actually lowered some taxes for the lower and middle class too. But increased others, like tax on all incomes, or gas (although that one is now cancelled).

Net income increased for people with a job, decreased for retired people. Middle-class is supposed to be the general winner (although it's also the one carrying the yellow vest thing), plus those at the extreme high end of the spectrum that benefit from the change of the wealth tax.

 

[chaostrophy]

This forum is the only place I see painting it as a "fascist" movement, when basically every other news outlet is saying that the far-right element is just a preexisting movement that's trying to latch on to the spontaneous anger (same as the far left elements).

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Right, NYT is reporting: "But what makes France's revolt different is that it has not followed the usual populist playbook. It is not tethered to a political party, let alone to a right-wing one. It is not focusing on race or migration, and those issues do not appear on the Yellow Vests' list of complaints. It is not led by a single fire-breathing leader. Nationalism is not on the agenda."

I'm not French but I never understood the appeal of Macron, was it just that he's not Le Pen? He's a rich guy who wants the government to serve the rich, just like Trump.

 

[Herb Alpert]

I think that the anti tax aspect was at the start, but now ot cristallizes something more deep than just that, mainly the sentiment of "social downgrade", the middle class is slowly disappearing in France and this is it refusing to die.

 

[Ukraine]

Populism sucks.

 

[Inuhanyou]

He actually lowered some taxes for the lower and middle class too. But increased others, like tax on all incomes, or gas (although that one is now cancelled).

Net income increased for people with a job, decreased for retired people. Middle-class is supposed to be the general winner (although it's also the one carrying the yellow vest thing), plus those at the end of the spectrum that benefit from the change of the wealth tax.

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were there any high class taxes that were raised?

 

[anthro]

Isn't the biggest story here the revolt against a carbon emissions tax, so to speak. Clearly, curbing emissions may not be the slam dunk politicians are looking for. I mean, things got dicey in CA with the gas tax, but it survived a referendum. I wonder how different France's tax is in comparison.

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The problem is that the French feel like it is one in a line of attacks Macron has levied against the low to middle class. They feel like Macron is giving layups to the rich while imposing austerity on everyone else.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Right, NYT is reporting: "But what makes France's revolt different is that it has not followed the usual populist playbook. It is not tethered to a political party, let alone to a right-wing one. It is not focusing on race or migration, and those issues do not appear on the Yellow Vests' list of complaints. It is not led by a single fire-breathing leader. Nationalism is not on the agenda."

I'm not French but I never understood the appeal of Macron, was it just that he's not Le Pen? He's a rich guy who wants the government to serve the rich, just like Trump.

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From what I understand: he was a compromise candidate. The Left was in retreat after their previous Leftist president failed to deliver a lot of his promises, so rather than allow the resurgent right full control they sort of supported a centrist candidate as a compromise against the far right Le Pen.

 

[IrishNinja]

I always have this idea that this forum gives way too much relevance to voting over taking the streets to get shit done. In that sense this forum is very US minded.

In that sense, I would never take this place as "leftist" even though compared to other gaming forums that are complete cespools it is left leaning

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agreed on all fronts, good post

 

[Inuhanyou]

Populism sucks.

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You cant be saying that to the french, who massacres their elite regularly

The problem is that the French feel like it is one in a line of attacks Macron has levied against the low to middle class. They feel like Macron is giving layups to the rich while imposing austerity on everyone else.

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a sentiment that has been building for a while can evolve into a dangerous thing. Its how trump won

 

[Maneil99]

I never understood the support here for Macron. He is destroying dances middle and lower class for short term benefit of the rich. I'd be on the streets too if I was French.

 

[ahoyhoy]

We have been governed by a lot of fools for a loooooong time.

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They end up kicked out more often than they do in other Western countries, right?

 

[Alx]

were there any high class taxes that were raised?

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The CSG has been raised, but it's a tax targeting all incomes. It includes income from patrimony and investments though, so it involves rich people too. On the other hand he reformed the wealth tax, that was a tax on ownership and not income. Its new version only targets real estate now, in an attempt to encourage investment in the industry.
Macron's focus is quite clear, he's trying to boost the working activity on the country. It's not about flattering the rich or crushing the poor, but stimulating the economy.

I never understood the support here for Macron. He is destroying dances middle and lower class for short term benefit of the rich. I'd be on the streets too if I was French.

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Check the graph I posted and explain to me how the middle class is crushed...

 

[Inuhanyou]

In a sense, i can see why this was not about any individual tax or policy, but the general sentiment macron has been laying out with his agenda over a set period

 

[Hypron]

Right, NYT is reporting: "But what makes France's revolt different is that it has not followed the usual populist playbook. It is not tethered to a political party, let alone to a right-wing one. It is not focusing on race or migration, and those issues do not appear on the Yellow Vests' list of complaints. It is not led by a single fire-breathing leader. Nationalism is not on the agenda."

I'm not French but I never understood the appeal of Macron, was it just that he's not Le Pen? He's a rich guy who wants the government to serve the rich, just like Trump.

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There weren't many other options in the last election: Mélenchon who is too left wing and populist for many people, Hamon who never had any chance since he was from the same party as the previous president, and Fillon who was corrupt as fuck and had a big scandal right before the election.

 

[Gobias-Ind]

https://www.cnews.fr/france/2018-12-05/la-liste-des-revendications-des-gilets-jaunes-801586

The movement of yellow vests brings together diverse profiles, French people of all political stripes and all ages, all over France. Initially launched to protest against rising fuel prices, the movement has aggregated many claims.
The spokespersons for the yellow vests sent the media and MPs a communiqué listing their requests. There are proposals in many areas, from the price of tolls through education, wages, or inheritance tax.

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For anyone who was curious as to the specifics of the broader motivations, as I was. This woman did a tweet thread with a decent point by point translation:

 

[Colonel Getafe]

Heart: You really do have to admire the way the French really go for it when someone tries to take their shit away

Head: You can't work like the French do in 2035 and still have pensions and a social net

 

[Inuhanyou]

The CSG has been raised, but it's a tax targeting all incomes. It includes income from patrimony and investments though, so it involves rich people too. On the other hand he reformed the wealth tax, that was a tax on ownership and not income. Its new version only targets real estate now, in an attempt to encourage investment in the industry.
Macron's focus is quite clear, he's trying to boost the working activity on the country. It's not about flattering the rich or crushing the poor, but stimulating the economy.
.

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But if the means he claims to want to stimulate the economy give rise to the sense of the lower classes that they are being maligned, it makes sense this happens, especially in a politically volatile place like france no?

 

[Stellar]

Macron's neoliberal policies have been a complete disaster. People across the entire spectrum have been joining the protests. All the polls show the yellow vests have massive popular support in France.

In fact the farmers union just announced they are also going on strike soon.

 

[Tugatrix]

It's france baby, when they get to the streets politicians better fall in line they do not kid and take these uprisings seriously.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Head: You can't work like the French do in 2035 and still have pensions and a social net

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1. that's horseshit

2. why the hell not? The idea that everyone needs to work himself to death is a complete fiction

 

[Alx]

But if the means he claims to want to stimulate the economy give rise to the sense of the lower classes that they are being maligned, it makes sense this happens, especially in a politically volatile place like france no?

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I guess so, the problem being that the frustration of the middle class is more a feeling than a fact.

https://www.cnews.fr/france/2018-12-05/la-liste-des-revendications-des-gilets-jaunes-801586

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I guess Macron will need to buy a red suit and a couple of reindeers...

 

[moblin]

They end up kicked out more often than they do in other Western countries, right?

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Not necessarily, at least not French Presidents. It's roughly in line with other European democracies. Italian PMs, on the other hand...

 

[Pomerlaw]

This movement above else indicates people are pissed. The French abide no fools in their government.

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lol ok
They protest the shit out of thing though, I have to admit that. What Macron has been doing is not even close from Trump, and you see nothing close from those protests in the US.

 

[Gobias-Ind]

lol ok
They protest the shit out of thing though, I have to admit that. What Macron has been doing is not even close from Trump, and you see nothing close from those protests in the US.

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We get pretty big numbers at some protests but the moment a business' window is cracked or someone's forehead is scratched about 80% of the American population would rally around the government and endorse violent suppression of the demonstrations.

 

[Camwi]

Your English is fine, OP.

 

[Rand a. Thor]

Macron's neoliberal policies have been a complete disaster. People across the entire spectrum have been joining the protests. All the polls show the yellow vests have massive popular support in France.

In fact the farmers union just announced they are also going on strike soon.

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I know its 2018, but you do NOT want the Agriculture sector to get involved, seriously don't fuck with em. Here in Greece when they get involved it results in month long shutdowns. I can only imagine what that would result in im France, considering they have 100x more gusto when it comes to protesting.

It's france baby, when they get to the streets politicians better fall in line they do not kid and take these uprisings seriously.

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Hopefully. I don't condone burning a city to the ground, but it will hopefully send an international message that the masses still have the power to change the world when the rich get too bold.