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France : "yellow vests" protest movement is causing political instability

AzorAhai

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,613
Ortix said:
This clown has been enacting almost precisely what he campaigned on (insofar as it wasn't blocked), so he's doing what the french people voted for.
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Everyone here knows our voting system is fucked up right now. Whoever wins the first round is instantly President because Le Pen is guaranteed to reach the 2nd round, and guaranteed to lose.

So Macron won with something like 24% in the first round. With 3 other candidates around 20%. The political landscape is fragmented. Even Macron said « I'm the fruit of a History brutality, of a break-in ».

But yes, he won. Does it mean we should shut up for 5 years (possibly 10) ? I personnaly believe voting is the only solution, but I understand why there are people who can't take it anymore.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
660
AzorAhai said:
But yes, he won. Does it mean we should shut up for 5 years (possibly 10) ? I personnaly believe voting is the only solution, but I understand why there are people who can't take it anymore.
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By their own admission, most of those people "who can't take it anymore" didn't even vote. It should be a wake up call for them too, to realize that voting does matter. And they should rather learn the rules of the system (how do tax work ? and elections ? and demonstrations ?), rather than complain that the politicians they've been ignoring for years are ignoring them too as a result.
 
AzorAhai

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,613
Alx said:
By their own admission, most of those people "who can't take it anymore" didn't even vote. It should be a wake up call for them too, to realize that voting does matter. And they should rather learn the rules of the system (how do tax work ? and elections ? and demonstrations ?), rather than complain that the politicians they've been ignoring for years are ignoring them too as a result.
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Yes, on that I agree with you. The rate of abstention is absolutely terrible. If you don't care about politics, politics will take care of you...
 
Holden

Holden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
110
AzorAhai said:
Everyone here knows our voting system is fucked up right now. Whoever wins the first round is instantly President because Le Pen is guaranteed to reach the 2nd round, and guaranteed to lose.

So Macron won with something like 24% in the first round. With 3 other candidates around 20%. The political landscape is fragmented. Even Macron said « I'm the fruit of a History brutality, of a break-in ».

But yes, he won. Does it mean we should shut up for 5 years (possibly 10) ? I personnaly believe voting is the only solution, but I understand why there are people who can't take it anymore.
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tbf macron vs anybody in 2nd round was favoring him

love him or hate him what's pissing me off is nobody is proposing any "viable" alternative. Hamon was the closest thing and he was straight up rejected by the French people.

but yeah a new voting system is very needed as there many different parties realistically competing each other... if you believe in democracy.
 
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Ortix

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
Alx said:
By their own admission, most of those people "who can't take it anymore" didn't even vote. It should be a wake up call for them too, to realize that voting does matter. And they should rather learn the rules of the system (how do tax work ? and elections ? and demonstrations ?), rather than complain that the politicians they've been ignoring for years are ignoring them too as a result.
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We've been over this earlier in the thread, but after electing him the French people proceeded to overwhelmingly vote for his party in the legislative elections, resulting in a 350/577 majority. You can't simply write his win off due to the nature of the presidential election.
So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that people who didn't bother to vote are now acting all surprised and indignant, asking "how dare he do these things to us?". Well guess what, he hasn't been hiding his intentions, this is what France voted for.
 
le-seb

le-seb

Member
Oct 31, 2017
341
samoyed said:
Has ranked voting been floated at all?
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« Classez les candidats à l'élection présidentielle selon votre ordre de préférence: »
  • M. Nicolas DUPONT-AIGNAN,
  • Mme Marine LE PEN,
  • M. Emmanuel MACRON,
  • M. Benoît HAMON,
  • Mme Nathalie ARTHAUD,
  • M. Philippe POUTOU,
  • M. Jacques CHEMINADE,
  • M. Jean LASSALLE,
  • M. Jean-Luc MÉLENCHON,
  • M. François ASSELINEAU,
  • M. François FILLON.
It it even possible to rank multiple candidates as the least preferred ones?
Because between the crazies, the jokers, the cheaters and the racists, it's hard to choose who's the worst from this list.
 
samoyed

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
le-seb said:
« Classez les candidats à l'élection présidentielle selon votre ordre de préférence: »
  • M. Nicolas DUPONT-AIGNAN,
  • Mme Marine LE PEN,
  • M. Emmanuel MACRON,
  • M. Benoît HAMON,
  • Mme Nathalie ARTHAUD,
  • M. Philippe POUTOU,
  • M. Jacques CHEMINADE,
  • M. Jean LASSALLE,
  • M. Jean-Luc MÉLENCHON,
  • M. François ASSELINEAU,
  • M. François FILLON.
It it even possible to rank multiple candidates as the least preferred ones?
Because between the crazies, the jokers, the cheaters and the racists, it's hard to choose who's the worst from this list.
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Perhaps an option like 'no confidence" to indicate you don't want your vote going to any other clownshoe.
 
Ac30

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
AzorAhai said:
Everyone here knows our voting system is fucked up right now. Whoever wins the first round is instantly President because Le Pen is guaranteed to reach the 2nd round, and guaranteed to lose.

So Macron won with something like 24% in the first round. With 3 other candidates around 20%. The political landscape is fragmented. Even Macron said « I'm the fruit of a History brutality, of a break-in ».

But yes, he won. Does it mean we should shut up for 5 years (possibly 10) ? I personnaly believe voting is the only solution, but I understand why there are people who can't take it anymore.
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Is Macron's proposal for some proportionality in the Assembly completely DOA?
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
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uYv7vFe.jpg
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
le-seb said:
« Classez les candidats à l'élection présidentielle selon votre ordre de préférence: »
  • M. Nicolas DUPONT-AIGNAN,
  • Mme Marine LE PEN,
  • M. Emmanuel MACRON,
  • M. Benoît HAMON,
  • Mme Nathalie ARTHAUD,
  • M. Philippe POUTOU,
  • M. Jacques CHEMINADE,
  • M. Jean LASSALLE,
  • M. Jean-Luc MÉLENCHON,
  • M. François ASSELINEAU,
  • M. François FILLON.
It it even possible to rank multiple candidates as the least preferred ones?
Because between the crazies, the jokers, the cheaters and the racists, it's hard to choose who's the worst from this list.
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Pretty much what I've been advocating for a while, yeah. Including the vote of no confidence/veto thing. You would get to veto one or two candidates (no more, to prevent idiots from vetoing everyone who isn't their favorite). There should even be a rule whereby, if a candidate gets a high enough percentage of no confidence (relative to their overall score obviously), they're either excluded of the candidate pool, or at the very least they get a penalty on their overall score. This would almost definitely ensure that extremists like Le Pen would never win an election. Too many people would choose her as their veto without a second thought... I hope so, anyway.
 
le-seb

le-seb

Member
Oct 31, 2017
341
Kilrogg said:
This would almost definitely ensure that extremists like Le Pen would never win an election. Too many people would choose her as their veto without a second thought... I hope so, anyway.
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She's not the single extremist / crazy person in this list, though.

I can't see no better mechanism than the current "vote for your preferred candidate" when you need to veto two thirds of the list just to get rid of extremists and jokers...
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
660
Ac30 said:
Is Macron's proposal for some proportionality in the Assembly completely DOA?
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It's still part of the constitutional reform that was supposed to be discussed last summer… but was put on hold because of the "affaire Benalla".
Discussions should resume on January, unless the opposition finds a new reason to delay it.
 
OP
OP
Herb Alpert

Herb Alpert

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,033
Paris, France
Ac30 said:
Is Macron's proposal for some proportionality in the Assembly completely DOA?
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Maybe I'm wrong but the percentage of MPs elected by proportionality would only be around 10%.
It's mainly a symbolic measure.

Fact is, they're all frightened by proportionality. They're afraid to see at least 20% of Le Pen's friends and slightly less for LFI in the national Assembly.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
le-seb said:
She's not the single extremist / crazy person in this list, though.

I can't see no better mechanism than the current "vote for your preferred candidate" when you need to veto two thirds of the list just to get rid of extremists and jokers...
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Yeah, she isn't the only one, but there's a pretty big gap between "this solution isn't enough" and "the current system is the best/least worst". Besides, no voting system is perfect. But I daresay I think the preference list system (or whatever it's called) is overall miles better than our completely binary system. Our system basically leaves no space for nuance and moderation. Your choosing one candidate among twelve effectively means the other eleven are all equally garbage and unfit for presidency in your eyes, when in reality, most of us have at least one other candidate they wouldn't mind too much, and a few other that they wouldn't want as a president in their worst nightmares. The current system is also more prone to strategic voting, i.e. heavily compromising between your beliefs and probabilities. A list system gives you more leeway.
 
le-seb

le-seb

Member
Oct 31, 2017
341
Had to share...
27eef9ab343a22eb28b9e45b30a8a0ce.jpg

"When you beat all yellow vests and finally meet the final boss"

Ricard is the brand of a famous aniseed aperitif.
 
samoyed

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
For protests of this size, how do they handle lodging and food? Do they just camp out there? Do they buy local food or is it donated or what?
 
Ortix

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
samoyed said:
For protests of this size, how do they handle lodging and food? Do they just camp out there? Do they buy local food or is it donated or what?
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For 1 meal, or 2 if they're fanatics who stay a bit later in the evening? They take a picnic or buy something at a food store they haven't plundered yet I guess. Not that different than at work, but on a saturday.
 
Chasing

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
10,716
I'm going to be in Paris for a week starting Thursday, any tips from locals on where I should avoid going? Do they only hold the protests on weekends?
 
LePertti

LePertti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
297
Paris, France
Yeah being in Paris is safe even on Saturdays, just avoid places mentioned. Also inconveniences with public transportation on Saturdays but you can still get around.
 

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
How has the media portrayed the protests with regards to the various parties? Have they been linking it mainly to Le Pen's party as most here have?
If so, it makes sense that they'd benefit the most - people who see the protests and agree with them are going to be more likely to then say they'd vote with the party being associated with them, even if many supporters of the parties on the left are also involved.
 
Ac30

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Herb Alpert said:
Seems melenchon and the left in general won't benefit at all from the latest events...
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Communist party is apparently trying to recruit Yellow Vests for their electoral lists. I expect the RN to do the same with much greater success, given that more of their members "identify" with the movement. At least EELV is above 5%, but if all three of them fail to make the threshold, fuck my life. Next EuroParl will be a disaster.
Kuldar said:
And after people will complain that the EU make dumb decisions. Maybe they should stop sending right wing folks who don't want the EU to work.
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Salvini's already realised it's much easier to destroy from the inside. That dude terrifies me. He actually knows what he's doing, and he's at record popularity.
 
Blackpuppy

Blackpuppy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,203
I see a correlation between the gilets jaunes and the Teaparty in the states.

If you remember, the Tea party formed as a populist uprising against the government's very unpopular decision to bail out the banks during the 2008 banking crisis. It really was an eye opener to see people from all ways of American life writing to their representitive to vote no. The underlying view was that the people were not going to bail out the fatcats. Let them fail!

But when Obama was elected, that anger quickly morphed into über right-wing fanaticism and that's when they became the crazies they are today that the Republicans welcomed with open arms.
 
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May 26, 2018
24,020
So as a total outsider...

Does Le Pen take over France now, next time there's a vote? I remember the last election being desperate for a lot of people
 
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