Francis Ford Coppola backs Scorsese in row over Marvel films
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Well, despicable might be a bit much but he is definitely on the money with the "same movie over and over" comment lmao
Yes that's exactly correct. Pretty much everything is art, because it's entirely subjective to the audience and that's the beauty of it. Sure, having many people call something art and come to a overall average critical consensus that it is overall a great piece of media, but just because critics don't believe something is art to them doesn't devalue the experiences other people may have with a product.
I get you want art to convey a feeling or thought you've never had before, and that's a very difficult thing to do, but on the otherhand the emotions that art can convey to you arn't ranked, and theres incredible value in the art of simple excitement. Migo's or drake playing in a club, it's an amazing feeling the amount of energy that suddenly comes into the room. Seeing a crowd full of people immediately filled with adrenaline is an incredible feeling, and that's what makes it art in it's own way, but it doesn't give you a new thought or perspective on life but it still holds incredible value, just in a different way compared to say other music that may make you contemplate a new perspective on life or make you cry. Both have, too me, equal artistic merit. Feeling excitement or happiness, especially in someones life who may be going through a rough patch especially in today's political climate, is incredibly valuable as a piece of art. Sure it may not change your life perspective in your eyes, but that doesn't diminish the effect it has on general audiences.
All im trying to say is, is that the beauty of art is that it can come in so many different ways, convey different emotions to a multitude of different people with different backgrounds at different points in their life, it's a really beautiful thing once you have that freedom and stop putting arbitrary barriers on pieces of media as if it's some kind of tier system, and even more narcissistic to say that something isn't as valuable as a whole simply because YOU don't personally connect with it or don't think it is as deep as it is/could be. Your nintendo direct example is a good one as it's not a traditional medium. I'm not a nintendo fan, but there is an artform in itself to construct the perfect trailer, to match visuals and musical elements and tease to the audience about an announcement of something that they themselves are fond of, and to get that reaction whilst it might seem weird to an outsider can be quite a endearing thing to see, especially that series or game relates to someones childhood or important events in their life.
And I'm not doing this as a way to defend just marvel movies, as i mentioned in my last comment I just greatly dislike any sort of gate keeping within a genre, music and film especially. Hell even games have it with 'Triple A games are completely souless' and arn't art arguement. And a side note is that many films that have that critical consensus that 'they are so deep and will make you rethink aspects of your life' really arn't that deep *cough* bladerunner *cough*.
To your point about theatres, yeah i can understand that the market is getting fragmented, but at the same time it's not exactly a colossal hurdle or burden for audiences to overcome. if you see an indie film on a streaming service you want to watch, you buy a months subscription, or a free month if it's your first time, for the same price that you would a cinema ticket? Of course i dont want cinema chains to die, but you can't blame big budget movies for that, it's the fault of cinema chains making them inaccessible to some people from a price and inconveniance standpoint.
Films don't need to be "art house" films to have solid fundamental story telling. Rocky, The Lion King, Titanic, Star Wars ... most of the biggest grossing films at least pre-2010 when CGI wank fests became the big priority tend to have pretty solid storytelling.
Things kinda went to shit in the last 10 years or so, but before that you couldn't really rely on just CGI to carry a movie because it was a limited feature that you could use for some effects shots, not something to build an entire movie around.
who is this guy? just googled him and all he has made is some old war movie and italian gangster stuff? Get back back to me when he was had a real film like captain America vs megaman
But McDonald's doesn't advertise itself as 'cuisine' though.
That's not what I was saying. Didn't he make the distinction of how cinema is more enlightening than comic books movies? And as I said I don't see it because in the end cinema always puts entertainment before speaking truth to a thing. The same way all movies do. Hence same level of shallowness due to similar concessions that are tied to the medium.
So to me this higher level of enlightening that he subscribes to cinema is kind of laughable and what he is actually describing are books. It feels like a second grade elementary schooler bragging to a first grade that they learned multiplication and that he has attained such higher knowledge while first graders are still on addition, when it's all just basic algebra.
Also worth noting with this comparison multiplication is just stacked/layered addition just to drive home how silly the differention is he tries to draw.
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For me, it's the McChicken. The best fast food sandwich. I even ask for extra McChicken sauce packets and the staff is so friendly and more than willing to oblige.
One time I asked for McChicken sauce packets and they gave me three. I said, "Wow, three for free!" and the nice friendly McDonald's worker laughed and said, "I'm going to call you 3-for-free!".
Now the staff greets me with "hey it's 3-for-free!" and ALWAYS give me three packets. It's such a fun and cool atmosphere at my local McDonald's restaurant, I go there at least 3 times a week for lunch and a large iced coffee with milk instead of cream, 1-2 times for breakfast on the weekend, and maybe once for dinner when I'm in a rush but want a great meal that is affordable, fast, and can match my daily nutritional needs.
I even dip my fries in McChicken sauce, it's delicious! What a great restaurant.
Coppola isn't even part of the recognised Boomer generation years you nitwits.
Anyway I think he's right on some points. MCU films are passable and enjoyable, but I wouldn't really put them on any best films I've ever seen. McDonalds food is probably the most apt comparison. There's nothing particularly stand out about any of them when you put them in a line, but in terms in spectacle they are probably best in class.
Anyway I think he's right on some points. MCU films are passable and enjoyable, but I wouldn't really put them on any best films I've ever seen. McDonalds food is probably the most apt comparison. There's nothing particularly stand out about any of them when you put them in a line, but in terms in spectacle they are probably best in class.
There's a clear reason why they didn't understand Black Panther...
I can’t imagine George saying anything badly about the films. He grew up loving comic books and watching corny sci-fi.
I mean I can see why it would bother them but I dont think its despicable in any sense. Its delivering on what right now is the big thing.
I do think were gonna see a natural slow down anyway, especially on the MCU as the end of phase 3 was kind of the end of the whole arc in a way. I'd say even Marvel/Disney are aware that they've less to build off with Endgame done and are looking to their streaming service to bolster stuff in part because of it.
But even then, I figure something else will be the next blockbuster and fall into the same criticised traps the MCU is having here.
They can judge films all they want. They are inarguably fit to do so. Picking and choosing what is and isn't cinema is no man's job. Cinema has a definition. If a body of work fits that definition it's cinema. Why do need Scorsese and Coppola to create new classifications?
They speak the truth, Marvel films are action films with little story and people are fine with it,
seriously lol vinyl has never died, shit every singer wants their stuff on vinyl just because
What if someone's "opinion" is that liquid water isn't wet?
Cinema has a definition. They don't get to redefine it and call it an opinion.
"X film production isn't cinema" isn't an opinion. It's just a ridiculous statement.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on the notion that cinema is unable to offer enlightenment in any way or form. I'd also like to add that not all cinema puts entertainment ahead of its message (even though that is admittedly in large part true for Scorsese, not that there is anything inherently wrong wIth that. You can have entertainment coexist with an actual message.) and if that is your honest opinion, you should probably explore the medium further.
Either way, I can only come to the conclusion that we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter, which is also, y'know, fine.
Does it really even matter, lol, why are you so hung up on the specific terminology. A dictionary doesn't necessarily dictate what everything is as if its some tablet passed on high from god to Moses either that you can wave around as definitive proof of anything. If anything Coppolla saying the films are "despicable" is a bigger diss than anything, lol. That's pretty harsh.
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If you guys want to continue to use their age as an insult, at least try to get it right.
Boomer 1946 – 1964
Francis Ford Coppola was born in 1939
Martin Scorsese was born in 1942
Boomer 1946 – 1964
Francis Ford Coppola was born in 1939
Martin Scorsese was born in 1942
I'm not even sure what this has to do with the topic at hand.
I think we all can understand why classic film makers would be frustrated with the current state of the industry, and the tastes of the audience....
None of that as anything to do with whether or not these films are cinema.
I didn't say that. I actually very much said the level of enlightenment that it offers is very comparable to marvel movies. In the end it's always entertainment before truth. So sure you pull stuff out of these movies but you could also instead just read a book on the topic cinema is trying pitifully make a statement about and be 100 times wiser.
And all these movie makers know it themselves. Do they study george lucas, spielberg, fincher, etc for their thematic research? I doubt it. They're reading stuff for sure instead. Cause in the end books are a much more enlightening medium compared to film.
Just cause it popped into my head, star wars wasn't thematically shaped by other cinema, it was shaped by joseph campbell. So dunno it just seems like silly bullshit with Scorsese trying to elevate a certain kind of thing over another when they're all basically the same shallow level. I'll change my mind when these movie makers openly talk about studying other movie makers for the narrative of their projects.
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As a horror movie fanboy this entire 'controversy' is sorta hilarious. The genre has been getting shafted, snubbed, and disrespected by Hollywood for well over half a century despite delivering bona-fide classics that are widely accepted as 'real cinema' by any measure. Every now and then it's thrown a bone, but like my most horror fans I've been conditioned not to expect or even really value validation from Hollywood. Like what you like. Great art speaks for itself.
At least super hero fans get the box office glory. We rarely even get that.
At least super hero fans get the box office glory. We rarely even get that.
I’m sticking with: Marvel is the Shake Shack of cinema.
You know what you’re gonna get but sometimes you’re surprised.
It's incredibly funny to me to even suggest films like Star Wars and Lion King became popular movies in culture because of the strength of their storytelling. They have high emotional resonance with audiences but the average movie-goer didn't come out of one going "wow, this really makes you think".
And then we'll still have to disagree. The film medium isn't inherently less capable of carrying a message across than books are. Besides, if you really do believe in the medium pecking order you describe, why don't you exclusively read philosophy or science papers? Why waste your energy on fiction at all?
No one is even doing that. What are you on about? No film needs to be fucking Godfather to be "cinema" a term that applies, by definition, to every damn film.
Your right, a words meaning is a function of how people understand it. And people generally understand "cinema" to be the art of filmmaking.
I'd argue that suggesting that these films don't meet the basic requirement to exist as examples of the artform is much harsher than saying they are despicable. I don't think any creator expects all critics to like their work. But to be told their work doesn't count at all? That's fucked.
A movie's goal is not necessarily to "make you think". The theme can be communicated through emotional impact, in fact it's probably better that it is.
But absolutely you can go into any screenwriting class and films like Star Wars and Lion King are studied all the time. There will be a class somewhere today where they're going over the plot, theme, story, structure of one of these films tomorrow guaranteed.
Consider a real high up there in their snozzy self chef. Do you think they respect McDonalds?
Marvel is like a good dinner that gives you diarrhea.
Good at first but real messy afterward.
Fun is there. Quality isn’t there. They are lab grown money projects. Gotta agree with people who make quality cinema on this one.
Good at first but real messy afterward.
Fun is there. Quality isn’t there. They are lab grown money projects. Gotta agree with people who make quality cinema on this one.
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Looking into this even more. The majority of the directors in the MCU are in the boomer definition or are a couple of years off.
Peyton Reed - 1964
Scott Derickson - 1966
Shane Black - 1961
James Gunn - 1966
Russo Bros - 1970
Alan Taylor - 1959
Jon Favreau - 1966
Shut up boomers??
Scorcese did say to him cinema is the art of telling stories that have meaning to them (basically), so if that's a metric one uses then his POV isn't really that far off. It's whether or not you think movies should have something to say or not.
The person who made Godfather never said the MCU needs to like his movies either, yet everyone feels insulted and is acting like he did.
I'll be watching Parasite in a few hours. I will most likely consider it art, if all the impressions are anything to go by. I enjoyed almost every MCU movie I watched. I wouldn't call a single one of them art. There is no art in them outside of the art of making money. And that's ok.
Because fiction trumps those for entertainment and as a normal human you're not just consuming for enlightenmment but also to relax. But then I also clearly never made the silly attempt establishing this pecking order. It's Scorsese that does try to do that. I'm just correcting his silly attempt by using the framework he hints at and correctly stating within that framework books would trump the silly attempts cinema has done to try to say something meaningful compared to books.
I mean we can disagree but give me a movie that carries the "message" of a Treatise of Human Nature? You can't cause movies aren't capable of carrying the same information density within their runtime nor are they able to communicate with the same clarity cause they have to veil the message in entertainment.
Another example I love whiplash as a movie... if you're truly trying to stand up for it as enlightening cinema oh boy. It is so far removed from the musician experience it is wildly not enjoyed by most musicians.
The snozzy self chef can diss McDonald's all he wants. But if he fixes his lips to say a quarter pounder w/ cheese isn't food, he'd be talking nonsense.
That's nonsensical as saying an MCU film isn't cinema. Its cinema by default.
Yeah, the person who made Godfather said they're not cinema (wrong) and that they're despicable (wtf).
That's what people are talking about. This isn't about "art", this is about the term "cinema", look up a definition and you'll see why.
As for "art", that's entirely subjective, with your line of thinking video games aren't art either. *shrug*
I feel this sort of shit is just people tryin'a toot their own horn over how sophisticated their tastes are. I own almost every single Masters of Cinema BD release, and can still let the MCU be cinema without tarnshing my little imaginary crown of sophistication.
A movie can be about any theme/topic you want. There's no "you can't make a movie about this because the camera will explode" topic.
I have no opinion on this but I find it hilarious when people say this is "literally gatekeeping"
Tremendous.
Tremendous.
Can you stop chiming in with unrelated stuff. I can't even answer with anything to this cause it doesn't relate to anything I said. Point to me the statement where I say "you can't make a movie about this". Hint I didn't say that anywhere. But if you want to engage pls bring a counter example to the one I specifically raised. Then I can answer.