French actress Catherine Deneuve slams post-Weinstein witch-hunt as attack on sexual freedom

FrankJaeger · Jan 11, 2018

Ah, I like those threads - instantly shows what people here just for the moral superiority cookies and who actually can understand and want to talk about issues.

As for her letter: I largely agree with the idea, though not with everything what she had said.
Harassment is bad and should be fought against, "witch hunt" and "guilty until proven innocent" mentality are not better.

FrankJaeger · Jan 11, 2018

Palette Swap said:
You can't complain about brown people, their religion and their culture harassing your women while you excuse groping and grinding because you're worried your shitty intellectual friends might finally get their comeuppance. That's really more of the language used to defend Strauss Khan when a black maid accused him.

What a "dismissive" post.
It's like you can not be against two things at once.

HP_Wuvcraft · Jan 11, 2018

FrankJaeger said:
Harassment is bad and should be fought against, "witch hunt" and "guilty until proven innocent" mentality are not better.

Why do people keep using the term witch hunt in this context? Do you not realize that implies that you are implying that people are going out of their way to randomly accuse men of abuse and harassment?

Trying to find dirt on a political opponent. That's a witch hunt. Trying to project reasons for why shit didn't go your way. That's a witch hunt.

Accusing people of being commies. Witch hunt.

Siding with an accuser of sexual harassment? Not a witch hunt.

Explain to me how the term "witch hunt" applies to siding with a hypothetical victim of a crime.

FrankJaeger · Jan 11, 2018

HP_Wuvcraft said:
Why do people keep using the term witch hunt in this context? Do you not realize that implies that you are implying that people are going out of their way to randomly accuse men of abuse and harassment?

Media paints all accused as "definitely guilty". And due to today culture of the "buzzwords", even if accused person issues statement it is usually is lost in the media buzz and everyone only remember, that person was accused and nothing about what was following it.
There is difference, between rape and clumsy flirting, which often being painted as one and the same.

uzipukki · Jan 11, 2018

FrankJaeger said:
Media paints all accused as "definitely guilty". And due to today culture of the "buzzwords", even if accused person issues statement it is usually is lost in the media buzz and everyone only remember, that person was accused and nothing about what was following it.
There is difference, between rape and clumsy flirting, which often being painted as one and the same.

Christ on a cracker.

HP_Wuvcraft said:
Which of the many allegations of sexual harassment that have been in the news amount to "clumsy flirting"?

On top of this, the poster isn't taking into account what the victim (who comes forward) has to endure because they come forward.

HP_Wuvcraft · Jan 11, 2018

FrankJaeger said:
There is difference, between rape and clumsy flirting, which often being painted as one and the same.

Which of the many allegations of sexual harassment that have been in the news amount to "clumsy flirting"?

FaceHugger · Jan 11, 2018

I think she's missing the key fact that people aren't pushing back against regular flirtation and pursuit in appropriate settings. They're pushing back against rank harassment and worse in their professional lives.

Gwenpoolshark · Jan 11, 2018

Been saving my Bell De Jour Gifs for this very special day.

Mona · Jan 11, 2018

SugarNoodles said:
French flirting techniques:
1) Take it out and make her look at it

jaxom · Jan 11, 2018

HP_Wuvcraft said:
Which of the many allegations of sexual harassment that have been in the news amount to "clumsy flirting"?

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/politiq...le-pour-denonciation-calomnieuse_2524495.html

A secretary attacked a French political guy for harassment .
He was destroyed publicly for a couple of weeks in the French medias and social medias . The first in line were feminist groups.
The case was public and followed, this lady was proven easily guilty because she was sending "hot" SMS to the political guy . In other words, the harasser was her in the case and tried to use his political name to attack and go in the news.

There's other stories in France of social media denounciation that were totally unjustified. ( a guy asking a girl if she wanted to sleep with him after a heavy drinking night for example. maybe it was with crude words, each one will have his version, and it was clearly possibly something the guy shouldn't have said, but social media shouldn't EVER be testimony, judge and jury and putting misplaced words at the same level of a Weinsten.)

Palette Swap · Jan 11, 2018

There's a pretty good New Yorker piece about this.

It reports and translates some things from the letter I haven't seen in other English language sources, like the title of the letter itself:

I hadn't thought about it again until I saw, yesterday, that a hundred Frenchwomen, including the actress Catherine Deneuve and the writer Catherine Millet, had signed an opinion piece in Le Monde, defending "a freedom to bother, indispensable to sexual freedom."

"A freedom to bother"—it was the first time I'd heard that one. (The word that the women used, "importuner," ranges in connotation from bugging someone to really disturbing her. Whatever the level of offense, the behavior is clearly unwanted.) Was this some bold new European liberty, like the right to be forgotten? One didn't have to read far to figure out that the statement was just another apologia for sexual assault and harassment.

It touches on cultural differences and how you shouldn't overstate them :

Despite the impulse, online and elsewhere, to attribute it to some innately French point of view, this wasn't a straightforward case of cultural difference. #MeToo and #BalanceTonPorc ("squeal on your pig"), its French analogue, have been as seismic in France as they have been elsewhere; the outpouring of stories has even led to proposals for laws that would introduce fines for street harassment and extend the statute of limitations on assault cases involving minors.

There's also a really good intuition about the generational divide at play here, that can lead to some of the obliviousness :

This made me realize what a wondrous event the sexual revolution must continue to seem to those whose lives were opened up by it. I wonder if those of us who were born later, who are fighting other battles, often underestimate the primacy of sexual liberation in the world view of previous generations.

But read the whole thing, really.

HP_Wuvcraft · Jan 11, 2018

jaxom said:
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/politiq...le-pour-denonciation-calomnieuse_2524495.html

A secretary attacked a French political guy for harassment .
He was destroyed publicly for a couple of weeks in the French medias and social medias . The first in line were feminist groups.
The case was public and followed, this lady was proven easily guilty because she was sending "hot" SMS to the political guy . In other words, the harasser was her in the case and tried to use his political name to attack and go in the news.

That's great that it was proven false, but how does this relate to "clumsy flirting"?

There's other stories in France of social media denounciation that were totally unjustified. ( a guy asking a girl if she wanted to sleep with him after a heavy drinking night for example. maybe it was with crude words, each one will have his version, and it was clearly possibly something the guy shouldn't have said, but social media shouldn't EVER be testimony, judge and jury and putting misplaced words at the same level of a Weinsten.)

Oh no, you mean a guy said something shitty to a girl and got called out on it? Tough break. Nobody is saying that being a dick is the same as rape. What they are saying is that they can both breed from the same toxicity. If you can't see how toxic masculinity can lead directly to much more physical forms of harassment like rape and abuse, I don't know what to tell you.

But in general? Shitty behavior is gonna be called out for what it is.

Deleted member 15428 · Jan 11, 2018

Brigitte Lahaie (former pornographic actress, who co-signed Catherine Deneuve's open letter) debated against Caroline De Haas (a feminist activist) on TV. When the latter said that 'violence prevents (victims) from feeling pleasure (...) after you've been raped, it's harder to feel sexual pleasure in general', the former replied 'women can climax during rape'. Awkwardness ensued

Moment de malaise, mercredi 10 janvier, sur le plateau de BFM-TV. Vingt-quatre heures après la publication dans Le Monde d'une tribune polémique d'un collectif de 100 femmes – dont Catherine Deneuve – revendiquant pour les hommes la liberté d'importuner les femmes, Brigitte Lahaie, signataire du texte, a déclaré sur le plateau de la chaîne d'informations en continu que les femmes peuvent « jouir lors d'un viol ».
L'ancienne actrice de films pornographiques et animatrice sur RMC répondait alors à Caroline De Haas, également invitée dans l'émission « News et Compagnie » de BFM-TV, qui faisait valoir que « les violences, elles empêchent la jouissance ». « Quand vous avez été victime de viol, vous jouissez moins bien en fait, en général », énonçait alors la militante féministe, elle-même victime d'un viol.

Source http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...-brigitte-lahaie-sur-bfm-tv_5240355_3224.html

Elynn · Jan 11, 2018

oh boy

Translation :

Catherine Millet [she's one of the writers of the letter] on rape : "it's only your body that's been appropriated by someone... I very much regret not having been raped because I could testify that after a rape, we can make it out."

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

Deleted member 15428 · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

I'm sure there are ways to be anti-feminist without resorting to outright trolling. Come on...

Elynn · Jan 11, 2018

Birdseye said:
I'm sure there are ways to be anti-feminist without resorting to outright trolling. Come on...

Are you talking to me ?

Deleted member 15428 · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
Are you talking to me ?

No, I was thinking of Catherine Millet. What twisted logic was that, wishing she'd gotten raped...?

Elynn · Jan 11, 2018

Birdseye said:
No, I was thinking of Catherine Millet. What twisted logic was that, wishing she'd gotten raped...?

Oh sorry :p
She's fucked up. During the #BalanceTonPorc movement a couple of months ago she was also saying that "now that beautiful women flee from men out of fear of being harassed, maybe that's an opportunity for less pretty girls to find a place with men". Also openly said that her sexuality was first and foremost for male desires before her own.
So yeah she's got issues and she's obviously not an authority of what sexual harassment is.

Kain-Nosgoth · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

i agree with some of deneuve points (not everything of course)... but this? Fuck that, what the hell is wrong with that woman? Yeah some people are stronger than other mentally... but way to undermine every rape that ever happened... some of these people are really stupid

Dirtyshubb · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
Oh sorry :p
She's fucked up. During the #BalanceTonPorc movement a couple of months ago she was also saying that "now that beautiful women flee from men out of fear of being harassed, maybe that's an opportunity for less pretty girls to find a place with men". Also openly said that her sexuality was first and foremost for male desires before her own.
So yeah she's got issues and she's obviously not an authority of what sexual harassment is.

Fucking hell, so 'ugly ' women should see harassment as a positive since they ate now getting some attention from men?

Oynox · Jan 11, 2018

It's always good to have a conversation and I can see her point. Unpopular view but it is a justifiable one nonetheless.

Ac30 · Jan 11, 2018

Birdseye said:
Brigitte Lahaie (former pornographic actress, who co-signed Catherine Deneuve's open letter) debated against Caroline De Haas (a feminist activist) on TV. When the latter said that 'violence prevents (victims) from feeling pleasure (...) after you've been raped, it's harder to feel sexual pleasure in general', the former replied 'women can climax during rape'. Awkwardness ensued

Source http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...-brigitte-lahaie-sur-bfm-tv_5240355_3224.html

Why the fuck would you choose to respond like that? Jeez

Palette Swap · Jan 11, 2018

Oynox said:
It's always good to have a conversation and I can see her point. Unpopular view but it is a justifiable one nonetheless.

It's intellectually very thin and really petty to say "I wish I'd been raped to show you it's easy to get over it and I'm right". So no, this has zero value in a debate, it doesn't bring any argument to the table, it's about scoring hypothetical points and saying she's right anyway.

I haven't even touched upon how horrific it is to say such a thing to stroke your ego.

Again, this is all a really bourgeois worldview.

(I'm talking about Millet's latest interview, not the letter she co-wrote)

excelsiorlef · Jan 11, 2018

Palette Swap said:
It's intellectually very thin and really petty to say "I wish I'd been raped to show you it's easy to get over it and I'm right". So no, this has zero value in a debate, it doesn't bring any argument to the table, it's about scoring hypothetical points and saying she's right anyway.

I haven't even touched upon how horrific it is to say such a thing to stroke your ego.

Again, this is all a really bourgeois worldview.

I'd assume they're talking about the letter in general...

But I do always enjoy how many folks just reply with I agree (without even quotes of what they agree with) and don't actually elaborate.

Shauni · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

Good Gawd

Deleted member 18857 · Jan 11, 2018

A bit out-topic, but I had never thought that the #Balancetonporc hashtag was equivalent to #Metoo until it was pointed out in this thread.
I mean, they're linked, of course, but I feel that #Metoo is more about creating a group of people who have been victim of such acts (as in, "I have been a victim too, I'm with you") while #Balancetonporc is extremely aggressive and violent. It's an attack, it's an injunction to name asshole, which #Metoo is not always (though it often is). #Metoo is more about connecting people, while #Balancetonporc is more about public shaming.
#Balancetonporc also starts from the point of view that the person talks to a community already identified (fellow sisters or similar), while #Metoo is at the step prior, "contrary to what you may think, you're not alone".

Not sure where I'm going with it, but it just struck me this morning.

Palette Swap · Jan 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
I'd assume they're talking about the letter in general...

But I do always enjoy how many folks just reply with I agree (without even quotes of what they agree with) and don't actually elaborate.

It's a misunderstanding on my part. I was talking about that Catherine Millet quote from earlier. As I was reading through the thread, I assumed the person I quoted was talking about Millet, but you're right, they're talking about the OP and Deneuve, so my answer is off as it pertains to Millet.

The Millet stuff I'm talking about is this :

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

It's important because Millet is one of the people who wrote that manifest (as opposed to Deneuve who signed it, even if she's taking flak for everyone), and honestly, it's insane.

excelsiorlef · Jan 11, 2018

Palette Swap said:
It's important because Millet is one of the people who wrote that manifest (as opposed to Deneuve who signed it, even if she's taking flak for everyone), and honestly, it's insane.

Remember when folks defended it by saying it had credibility because 100 signed it... Kudos to helping expose that folly.

Jedeye Sniv · Jan 11, 2018

Birdseye said:
Brigitte Lahaie (former pornographic actress, who co-signed Catherine Deneuve's open letter) debated against Caroline De Haas (a feminist activist) on TV. When the latter said that 'violence prevents (victims) from feeling pleasure (...) after you've been raped, it's harder to feel sexual pleasure in general', the former replied 'women can climax during rape'. Awkwardness ensued

Source http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...-brigitte-lahaie-sur-bfm-tv_5240355_3224.html

The opinion of a porn actressa bout this kind of thing is kind of fascinating really since their jobs are essentially to be sexually used and exploited, especially performers from LaHaie's generation. I wonder, does her career give her more credibility or less? (I suspect the answer may depend on who you ask) Many performers have been raped and there is a whole complicated mix of of tensions in there. I don't think she's right at all, but it's easy to see where her opinion comes from. She's probably been through more than you can imagine.

Deleted member 835 · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

Wtf?

Kthulhu · Jan 11, 2018

Birdseye said:
Brigitte Lahaie (former pornographic actress, who co-signed Catherine Deneuve's open letter) debated against Caroline De Haas (a feminist activist) on TV. When the latter said that 'violence prevents (victims) from feeling pleasure (...) after you've been raped, it's harder to feel sexual pleasure in general', the former replied 'women can climax during rape'. Awkwardness ensued

Source http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/artic...-brigitte-lahaie-sur-bfm-tv_5240355_3224.html

Just had flashbacks to Todd Akin.

Alx · Jan 11, 2018

Jedeye Sniv said:
The opinion of a porn actressa bout this kind of thing is kind of fascinating really since their jobs are essentially to be sexually used and exploited, especially performers from LaHaie's generation. I wonder, does her career give her more credibility or less? (I suspect the answer may depend on who you ask) Many performers have been raped and there is a whole complicated mix of of tensions in there. I don't think she's right at all, but it's easy to see where her opinion comes from. She's probably been through more than you can imagine.

Well Brigitte Lahaie is more than an ex pornstar, once she retired she animated many shows or studies about sexuality in general. I'd say that she probably knows a lot more about such issues than your regular person. But in any case I don't see how the ability of having an orgasm during a rape is relevant one way or another. Her answer is more an "actually..." retort for a random discussion, but doesn't make any point.

Jedeye Sniv · Jan 11, 2018

Alx said:
Well Brigitte Lahaie is more than an ex pornstar, once she retired she animated many shows or studies about sexuality in general. I'd say that she probably knows a lot more about such issues than your regular person. But in any case I don't see how the ability of having an orgasm during a rape is relevant one way or another. Her answer is more an "actually..." retort for a random discussion, but doesn't make any point.

Ah interesting, I'm not aware of much of Lahaie's post 70s work tbh.

I agree that what she said there is pretty stupid and kind of irrelevant even though it is apparently true (and can be a source of great shame to some rape victims). I guess it is kind of a factual answer to the statement that assault prevents victims from feeling pleasure, but it's really in poor taste and doesn't help her point at all. I wonder if her reply is because you shouldn't make blanket statements about these kinds of thing? Again, it's a fucking awful answer though.

Tfritz · Jan 11, 2018

I mean, "people can experience orgasms while being raped" and "people who have been raped have difficulty experiencing sexual pleasure" are not contradictory statements and the first statement can help explain the second.

Deleted member 18857 · Jan 11, 2018

After Caroline de Haas's answer, another letter signed by over 200 women, this time written by 5 women, including non-whites and queer (including Hourya Bentouhami and Amandine Gay, two of the most forward-thinking people in France on questions of feminism and race).

Basically, both texts are angry with wealthy women in power wanting to make sure feminism is not used to reduce their privilege and those of the men in their circles.

So, no, there is no French cultural difference here.

YellowMoose · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

What the fuck is wrong with her?

Mona · Jan 11, 2018

Elynn said:
oh boy

Translation :

Surely sounds like someone who should be telling women what sexual assault and harassment is.

Yikes

Deleted member 15428 · Jan 11, 2018

The other 100 women who signed Catherine Deneuve's letter are 'dissasociating themselves completely' from Brigitte Lahaie's comments, calling them 'insulting to the victims of sexual violence and rape'

[communiqué] Les rédactrices et les signataires de la tribune " Des femmes libèrent une autre parole" se désolidarisent totalement des propos tenus par l'une des signataires, Brigitte Lahaie, concernant "la jouissance du viol", qui les a tenus en son nom et en son nom seul. Ces termes n'apparaissent ni dans notre tribune ni dans les interventions médiatiques qui ont suivi la publication de la dite tribune. Nous sommes une très large majorité à considérer que ces propos sont insultants envers les femmes victimes de violences sexuelles et de viols.

Source: http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/brigit...nde-apres-ses-propos-sur-le-viol-1347334.html

Deleted member 15428 · Jan 12, 2018

Steven Spielberg has said he disagrees with Catherine Deneuve's claim that the Harvey Weinstein scandal has turned into a "witch-hunt" against men.

He said sexual misconduct was not just a problem in Hollywood but it was a "national problem and probably a global problem".

The Oscar-winning director said: "I don't see it as a witch-hunt at the moment - I don't. I'm sorry I don't see it as a witch-hunt - I see it as an imperative."

He said: "This is not just another blip on the news cycle, this is something that isn't just going to be yesterday's news in 24 hours."

Spielberg went on: "This is a watershed moment, and extolling the virtues of women coming forward through tremendous personal sacrifice, using tremendous amounts of courage to speak about what has happened to them yesterday or 40 years ago, it doesn't matter.

"This is something that is going to change everything for the better."

Spielberg commented: "There is always more to come, but the other thing we have to think about is this...Hollywood and celebrity gets a lot of recognition, you can't just think of this as a Hollywood problem, this is a national problem and probably a global problem."

https://news.sky.com/story/spielber...h-hunt-claim-after-weinstein-scandal-11203820

French actress Catherine Deneuve slams post-Weinstein witch-hunt as attack on sexual freedom

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