I am not going into all that. I'm saying clumsy flirting in itself is fine. Nothing more. Nothing less. Touching, kissing, grabbing etc etc yeah fuck all that. I'm talking about clumsy flirting people.
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French actress Catherine Deneuve slams post-Weinstein witch-hunt as attack on sexual freedom
- Thread starter Deleted member 15428
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I am not going into all that. I'm saying clumsy flirting in itself is fine. Nothing more. Nothing less. Touching, kissing, grabbing etc etc yeah fuck all that. I'm talking about clumsy flirting people.
Well, I don't agree about the touching, stealing a kiss, or persistent pursuit after being told no, but she is right that there has been a lot of lack of due process and public shaming. There should be a spectrum of punishment fitting the misdeed/crime, but lately, livelihoods are getting ruined for as little as consensual power-imbalance relationships.
My bad, deleted a sentence and left that in there accidentally. I'd originally typed in that we needed more nuance to stop the movement from being subverted into becoming a witch hunt.
Ok but that is what she's saying. So maybe don't defend her stance on it if you don't agree.
How about you quote where it says what you said it says?
This I'd like to know. Shit like this only damages their point, if there's nothing to back it up.
Yes, the reactions on here when someone does that or threatens that are really level headed. Can't imagine why someone doesn't jump right to a libel lawsuit..
Read the article, it's not about Weinstein directly. His outing is just the catalyst for the problem she's calling out.
Just read the letter, it's the usual "PC gone mad" concern trolling that aggregates everything from that Balthus painting to #metoo.
In France too. Which makes them all the more tone deaf. But hey, these are people comfortable around Polanski, so fuck them.
Might be referring tothisstory.
Still think that UK minister jumped ship for a relatively minor thing because he wanted to prevent having to answer for more heinous shit.
You understand that Franken did more than just touch someone through their kevlar, right? That person accepted his apology. It wasn't until there were 6 other accusations against him that the party actually started calling for his resignation, so not only was this not a witch hunt, but Franken clearly didn't stop being stupid after the first incident. You wanted nuance, you got it.
Yeah I'm concerned about an overreaction as well, but as far as I know no one (at least in Hollywood) has gotten shafted for just hitting on women, badly or well. It doesn't seem like that's really at issue, at least not while there are plenty of genuine rapists, predators, and harassers out there.
I wonder how much of their perspective is colored by the idea of America as the "puritanical" country rather than the actual circumstances.
Funny how men find themselves for once with the onus of innocence, after endless systemic effort do obfuscate and deny rape culture. And now they crumple like a pyramid of cards.
There is something to be said about the weird infantile position people put women in when it comes to sexuality. I have read/heard some feminists who campaigned for the sexual liberation of women in the 70s give some of this movement side eye.
I think we are fully capable of distinguishing between sexual assault and being bad at flirting, we just need to be careful to not be so hungry for justice that we start looking for it in regular, healthy human social sexual interactions. We risk not only tarring and feathering men, but establishing the sexual autonomy of women as almost non existent.
I think we are fully capable of distinguishing between sexual assault and being bad at flirting, we just need to be careful to not be so hungry for justice that we start looking for it in regular, healthy human social sexual interactions. We risk not only tarring and feathering men, but establishing the sexual autonomy of women as almost non existent.
I am not defending her stance I am agreeing with the quote that is presented in the OP
The quote is "Rape is a crime but insistent or clumsy flirting is not, nor is gallantry a macho aggression,"
I agree with that statement. Thats what I meant and thats literally what I said. If I had meant more than that I would have said so. It was you and the other person that decided to jump down my throat and assume I was supporting sexual harassment.
And people wonder why these threads are avoided like the plague.
What is going on in Hollywood isn't clumsy flirting. and if someone is trying to "steal" a kiss in any work environment you report them and they should lose their jobs. period.
Wanted to say this in my original post but forgot. Yea it's also best you probably don't flirt or try to have intimate relationships in a working environment.
Sorry my dude. These kind of flippant attitude towards a legit societal issue just get me riled up. Did not mean to jump on you specifically. My apologies.
Seems a reasonable enough statement. A lot of people seem to require nothing but an accusation to completely mentally convict someone.
Adam Sandler touched someone's knee during an interview. HER KNEE! And the Internet freaked out. She may be talking about instances like that, but I doubt it. She appears to be speaking more generally.
Not going to go in too hard on her because there are cultural differences at play, but there's no doubt she has badly misinterpreted the situation in Hollywood post-Weinstein.
This isn't about failed attempts to "steal a kiss." It's not the snowball dance in 11th grade.
This isn't about failed attempts to "steal a kiss." It's not the snowball dance in 11th grade.
The article comes across as some women stuck in the past that have the "men will be men" thinking
Extremely misguided as the likes of Harvey Weinstein weren't just 'bad flirters', they were predators.
I will agree that sometimes women complain that a guy coming up to talk to them is a 'creep' or 'harassing' them just by attempting a conversation - that's not right. Guys have to be free to talk to people or flirt with people - until the point at which it's clear it's not welcome, after which it DOES become harassment. But that's just not the level of behaviour this whole thing has been about.
The meToo movement will make these predators think again next time they are in such a situation, and for that it's invaluable and should be applauded. Literally saving people out here.
I will agree that sometimes women complain that a guy coming up to talk to them is a 'creep' or 'harassing' them just by attempting a conversation - that's not right. Guys have to be free to talk to people or flirt with people - until the point at which it's clear it's not welcome, after which it DOES become harassment. But that's just not the level of behaviour this whole thing has been about.
The meToo movement will make these predators think again next time they are in such a situation, and for that it's invaluable and should be applauded. Literally saving people out here.
A very passionate and poisonous response. It would be easier to address their complaint if they provided example of who they feel so far is unfairly targeted by puritanism compared to those they regard as legit sex offenders.
If they are arguing that all forms of accusations where the only evidence is the testimony of the accuser are without merit I can only say things have to play out like this for now because victims have been discouraged for generations to speak up quickly.
We need to engender an environment where we aren't immediately hostile to even examining the case within 48 hours. It's gotten so bad it's easy to accuse years later and be vindicated within a week with multiple victims and witnesses. Since it is that bad in our country this unfair way of handling accusations will have to be used until we foster the right culture and expectations.
If they are arguing that all forms of accusations where the only evidence is the testimony of the accuser are without merit I can only say things have to play out like this for now because victims have been discouraged for generations to speak up quickly.
We need to engender an environment where we aren't immediately hostile to even examining the case within 48 hours. It's gotten so bad it's easy to accuse years later and be vindicated within a week with multiple victims and witnesses. Since it is that bad in our country this unfair way of handling accusations will have to be used until we foster the right culture and expectations.
Not much of a surprise, she also came out in support of Polanski some time ago. And back when France was fighting for the government to pass the law on same sex marriage, she was not convinced, saying she didnt understand why gay people would want to marry when so many people get divorced nowadays.
So all in all, she's a great actress but her opinions are part of what you could call the "old generation". And lately she's been showing more and more of that, which is a shame.
So all in all, she's a great actress but her opinions are part of what you could call the "old generation". And lately she's been showing more and more of that, which is a shame.
Forgiven. Its a touchy subject, but as someone who has social anxiety and is completely inept at flirting I can sympathize with the idea of someone not wanting their actions to be taken the wrong way or blown up in a situation like that. And when I say actions I obviously mean nothing gross or nefarious. I mean literal simple flirting that normal people do.
I think alot of people could agree with that sentiment.
I hadn't actually heard about the other allegations. Reading more on it, the ones that he apologized for and didn't deny all involve groping/kissing. So yes, you're right, more than just the Kevlar pic. But still less than actual rape.
She put his hand back on his own leg the second time he did it. Clearly she didn't like that, even if she hasn't personally taken him to task. On top of that, he's suffered no social or financial ramifications as a result, so he's not even a fitting example. But he deserved the internet heat he got. Don't touch my leg, bros.
I feel like the interesting nuance wasn't quoted in the OP -- and there are some interesting bits here.
Basically, what I drew from this is that Deneuve and the other women signatories are arguing that the #metoo movement is unwisely compressing all gradations of harassment (because, it's all unacceptable, but some actions are worse than others). They're intimating that, by painting the women in these encounters as victims, they're taking agency away from women in some encounters from saying, "Nope, this was just awkward. I am not a (perpetual) victim." The letter's not a mounted defense against Weinstein; it's a defense of the agency of women, generally speaking, and a call to stand guard against how certain patriarchal social constructs, like religion, can co-opt the movement.
Basically, what I drew from this is that Deneuve and the other women signatories are arguing that the #metoo movement is unwisely compressing all gradations of harassment (because, it's all unacceptable, but some actions are worse than others). They're intimating that, by painting the women in these encounters as victims, they're taking agency away from women in some encounters from saying, "Nope, this was just awkward. I am not a (perpetual) victim." The letter's not a mounted defense against Weinstein; it's a defense of the agency of women, generally speaking, and a call to stand guard against how certain patriarchal social constructs, like religion, can co-opt the movement.
OP
OP
She claimed what she did in response was joking around. And yes, I found the reaction to it completely overblown and stupid.
So given that Franken isn't in jail, his resignation seems like it meets your criteria, yes?
This. Thank you. Much of the Me Too movement is justified. But on the fuzzier end of the spectrum (flirting, work relationships, awkward social interactions), things are getting a bit carried away.
See Tavis Smiley, Leonard Lopate, and Garrison Keillor. These guys getting their livelihoods taken away and reputations tarnished for the little they've been purported to have done seems like a massive overreach to me.
There is. It's actually quoted in the Le Monde article (http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article...exuelle_5239134_3232.html#eaS2UVg9T1IXi0cj.99), but that didn't make it to the translated interpretation.
Deneuve and the other signatories talk about #BalanceTonPorc too:
Basically (my translation): the rush to throw out the pigs, far from helping women empower themselves, actually serves the interests of the enemies of sexual liberty, religious extremists, the worst reactionaries and those who believe, in the name of a the greater good and Victorian morals that go with it, that women are beings "apart" -- children with the guise of adults, clamoring to be protected.
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You've summed up Deneuve pretty well. Every time she opens her mouth another idiocity comes out.
Yep. It was pretty big. Deneuve was against that as well (and that's predominantly what the article is about, not really anything to do with Weinstein).
With all the cases put forward. What do you exactly understand of her interests. To put it perspective, have you ever placed a hand on a stranger's knee, or had it done to you?
You didnt answer the question. Should I or should I not trust her appraisal of what happened to her?
